Jonathan V. Last: Burning Things Down

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Jonathan V. Last: Burning Things Down
Date: September 1, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Jonathan V. Last (JVL)

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Episode Overview

This episode features Tim Miller in conversation with Jonathan V. Last, who steps in for regular guest Bill Kristol. The main theme is the alarming fragility and ongoing erosion of liberal democratic institutions in the United States, especially in light of recent events and Trumpist politics. The discussion covers worst-case scenarios for American democracy, the degradation of institutional trust, red states’ increasing aggression toward blue states, the fracturing of American foreign policy alliances, and the day’s political oddities—including Rudy Giuliani’s curious car accident. The tone is both darkly humorous and deeply concerned about the future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Collapse of Institutional Norms and Trust

• JVL’s "Dark Triads": Tim notes that JVL's recent newsletter writings have been especially bleak, focusing on how "simple systems fall apart" and the growing risks of autocracy.
• Past vs. Present: Initially after Trump’s election, JVL was cautiously optimistic, guessing Trump might be benignly self-absorbed. Now, he believes the situation has grown much, much worse, surpassing even his previous 90th-percentile worst-case scenarios ([03:22]).
• Escalating Authoritarianism: JVL underscores the chilling shift:

  “I think we’re way past that. National Guard in the cities, military in the cities, masked federal agents just grabbing people off the streets, using third countries as places to deport to… I hadn’t foreseen that.” ([03:54])

• Red States vs. Blue States: States like Missouri and Indiana moving to coordinate aggressive redistricting and abortion travel restrictions are signs of a dangerous us-vs-them dynamic reminiscent of the run-up to the Civil War ([05:07]).

2. The New Normal: Erosion of Liberal Democracy

• Tim and JVL lament that broken norms—like politicized DOJ actions and the collapse of federal institutional neutrality—are not likely to be restored.
• Permanent Institutional Damage:

  “There’s a lot of these things that he has broken institutionally… I keep coming back to the DOJ. The notion of an independent DOJ—I do not understand how that gets reconstituted.” (Tim, [08:42])

• One-Sided Justice:

  “We’ll have an independent Justice Department under Democratic administrations and not under Republican administrations.” (JVL, [10:09])

3. COVID, Public Health, and Cult Politics

• CDC/Health Policy Turmoil: Tim references reporting about the messy internal dynamics at the CDC and the Biden/Trump administration’s contradictory handling of vaccine policy, led by officials with questionable priorities ([13:27]).
• Tribal Anti-Expertism: Trump’s public stance wavers between claiming credit for Operation Warp Speed and stoking anti-science conspiracies to appease the MAGA base and Robert Kennedy Jr. supporters.

  “It’s kind of funny that the ripping apart is happening within Trump. He wants to take credit for it so badly, but he also knows that he needs the quacks and the cranks...” (Tim, [14:54])

• Irreversible Institutional Distrust:

  “We’re going to get a whole bunch of studies coming out of the government around health and science… we’re not going to be able to trust any of them.” (JVL, [22:21])

4. Democracy and the International Order

• America’s Alienation: The hosts discuss a recent summit in China, where Xi, Putin, and Modi appeared united, and the U.S. stands increasingly alone, alienating allies like India and driving Europe to make independent security arrangements.
• Post-American World:

  “Trump happening once can be just bad luck, but twice means that the character of the American people can no longer be relied upon… The rest of the world is moving on.” (JVL, [30:24])

• America’s Fading Influence: Even authoritarian adversaries are not eager to count Trump’s America among their ranks, preferring to set the U.S. aside.

5. The Surreality of Political Life

• Democracy or Dictatorship? The hosts joke (with dark undertones) about tracking Trump’s health like Sovietologists tracked Politburo members, given the secrecy and defensiveness of official reports—“the Kremlin of 1980” ([26:10]).
• Giuliani’s Bizarre Accident: The podcast ends with a comically skeptical analysis of Rudy Giuliani’s “heroic” intervention in a domestic violence case, followed by a highly dubious car accident and a suspiciously vague press release ([36:28]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Institutional Ruin:
  • “I just don’t see how you unwind [this].” — JVL ([08:37])
  • “Losing an independent rule of law federal judicial system is a pretty key cornerstone of liberal democracy.” — Tim ([09:49])
• On Systemic Decay:
  • “This feels like lighting the fuse on something that we don’t know what happens when the fuse finally goes off.” — JVL ([07:00])
• On Public Health and Anti-science:
  • “The inertia is to burning things down, right? Like Trump, no matter how much he wants to take credit for this, it’s like the people with the power and the momentum are the cranks.” — Tim ([15:14])
• On Foreign Policy:
  • “Europe is preparing to go without us… They are in the process of making alternative security arrangements that will lead to alternative economic arrangements.” — JVL ([32:21])
• On Trump’s Personal Authoritarian Envy:
  • “We are going to have an American president watching a Chicom military parade with envy because that’s the world we live in now.” — JVL ([35:31])
• On Giuliani’s Press Release:
  • “This is the fishiest car accident story since the Tiger Woods golf club thing.” — JVL ([37:56])
  • “Maybe the security is being provided pro bono, Tim.” — JVL ([37:51])
  • “If it unfolded in the way that has been presented to us, Rudy wouldn’t shut up about it.” — JVL ([39:25])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:52] – Introduction to JVL’s “dark” recent writing and start of democracy/autocracy discussion
• [03:22] – Reflecting on early Trump era expectations vs. disturbing realities now
• [05:07] – Explanation of aggressive red state initiatives and their parallels to pre–Civil War politics
• [08:42] – Deep dive into the difficulty of restoring broken institutions (DOJ focus)
• [13:27] – Inside the CDC, COVID policies, and anti-vaccine politics
• [22:21] – Exploring the idea that government data and public trust are irreparably damaged
• [26:06] – Bizarre reality of “Kremlinology” applied to U.S. presidential health
• [30:24] – Analysis of America’s global standing as the world reacts to continual Trumpism
• [34:30] – Critique of U.S. strategy driving India toward China and Russia
• [36:28] – The segment on Rudy Giuliani’s incoherent and suspicious accident press release

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Tone & Style

• Darkly humorous: The hosts routinely use black humor and mockery to cope with and underline the seriousness of political breakdown.
• Candid, unsparing, but realistic: Neither Tim nor JVL feigns optimism where none is seen, although occasional attempts at hope are quickly qualified or self-deprecating.
• In-the-know, insider referencing: Frequent callbacks to previous podcasts, newsletters, and Bulwark community content.

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Conclusion

This episode, though shot through with bursts of gallows humor, is an urgent, sobering analysis of the deep damage sustained by American democratic institutions and the apparent normalization of political and institutional wrongdoing. JVL and Tim repeatedly return to the theme that once institutional trust and stability are lost, their recovery is anything but certain—often impossible—leaving both the U.S. and its allies to contemplate a new, risk-laden world. The episode is a must-listen for anyone concerned about the trajectories of democracy, public trust, and America’s place in the world.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Foreign hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday. I promised you a Labor Day podcast on Friday with Bill Kristol as usual, but we have some scheduling snafus. We have a sub. Bill Kristol is the editor at large. We brought in instead the editor in large. The editor in charge, JVL Jonathan V. Last what? How you doing, man? What is an editor at large? I don't even really know what that means.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I think it means he just goes where he wants and does what he pleases. You know what? I can do my best, Bill Crystal bit for you if it'll make everybody feel more comfortable. Jim yeah, as you know, I remember having lunch with Bella Abzug once. And you know, back in the day it was.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I don't know where it goes from there, but all of his stories somehow are. And then I was having coffee with Lionel Trilling.

[Tim Miller]

Right. He does have lunch and coffee and increasingly, more recently, Zooms or I was on a call, you know, I was on a call with some feckless Democrats, you know. Anyway, we talked a little bit about you on Friday's POD with Tom Nichols.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Oh, I heard that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. You've been writing some dark Triads, even for you, this past week. It looks like Fridays Triad Newsletter, which everyone should sign up for. Theborg.com is about how simple systems fall apart and how you think we might be reaching a tipping point for liberal democracy. So that's an uplifting piece of material. On Thursday you had Trump was waging war against the government and then he's going to wage war against the people. Yeah, you know, it's pretty heavy material. You and Sarah hashed this out a little bit on Friday on the secret podcast. But why don't you just give us, you know, you've had a couple. Maybe. Maybe you got a little vitamin D this weekend. I don't know. I'm just wondering where your head's at on the autocracy watch. I'd like to Start there.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, it's gotten worse. I think, look, I should just say, and Sarah and I talked about this on Friday. I think the last couple weeks have been really bad. Really bad. And I went and looked up something I wrote in early January before Trump had been been sworn in since the election. I had done a couple of like, hey, maybe it won't be so bad and here's what it would look like if we kind of dodge a bullet here pieces. And they were, you know, like, yeah, he doesn't mean any of this stuff about tariffs or deportations. He really just wants to golf and be popular and. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Redesign the White House. You know, we had a couple of those things. Like he was just focusing on golfing and you know, doing the Abba Pan remodel of the Rose Garden. Then that would have been nice.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Right. So I then went and wrote a sort of like, all right, so what does the worst case scenario look like? And, and I said, you know, obviously the worst case scenario is always nuclear holocaust and we all die. But let's, you know, let's not look at the, the 99th percentile worst case. Let's look at like the 90th percentile worst case. You know, that doesn't go all the way to like, everyone's dead. And, and I sort of outlined what it would look like and I, I think we're way past that.

[Tim Miller]

Way past.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, I think we're pretty far past that. National Guard in the cities, military in the cities, like masked federal agents just grabbing people off the streets, using third countries as places to deport to. Which is one of the, I mean, one of the reasons I did not believe that he would be able to do mass deportations is because you have to somebody willing to accept them. Right. And. Right. You know, I just thought like, Mexico isn't going to take 15 million people. Like, that's, that doesn't work. Like, I mean, just logistically. And the answer that he's come up with is, oh, well, we can just pay Uganda and Sudan and El Salvador to take people and jail them for us. That's something I hadn't, I hadn't foreseen. So I think, I think things are, are worse. And I, I'll just preview something. I'm, I'm thinking through tomorrow for, for the Tuesday triad. What we are seeing, it's going to.

[Tim Miller]

Be a pick me up.

[Jonathan V. Last]

It's, it's not, it's not. So I don't know if you saw Missouri is thinking about redistricting. Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Missouri is Going to happen. Yeah. Indiana is going to. More of a question. Missouri is going to happen. But they're only. So only take one seat. Only one.

[Jonathan V. Last]

But yeah, but it's, it's not really the number of seats.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Jonathan V. Last]

It's the, the idea that red states can begin imposing their will on the rest of the states. And this is the redistricting thing. We, we see this a little bit with some of the abortion laws which criminalize people for stuff they do in other states.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Travel.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Right. So if you, if you leave Texas to go and you get an abortion in California, then you know, there's some laws trying to criminalize so they can arrest you when you come back. Sending your National Guard, if you are West Virginia or South Carolina to a place ruled by the other party that doesn't want you there. And so far it's just the district. We'll see. My point is that all of this starts to look like what we had before the Civil War when slave states were actively going and trying to bring more slave states into the Union because what they wanted to do is impose their will on the northern states and vice versa. And I mean, that to me starts to look really dangerous. Right. I mean, we're in a world where all the red states are going to start redistricting, sort of in a semi coordinated manner in order to try to steamroll at the federal level the representation of blue states. That's a real us versus them dynamic. And when you throw in the National Guard and like red states sending National Guard. If you wind up having like South Carolina sending their National Guard into Illinois or something, I mean, I just don't know. Am I crazy? Do I sound like a crazy person?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, it depends on what you think, what you're saying, what the implications are of that. There's a lot of substances.

[Jonathan V. Last]

The implications are. I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right, right.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, the implications are like this feels like lighting the fuse on something that we don't know what happens when the fuse finally goes off. Does that make make sense?

[Tim Miller]

No. I mean, I agree with that. You know, like, obviously we had Covid, which killed a million people, but like in a weird way we got kind of lucky in the first term, Right. That like there wasn't like there was no crisis really until the last 10 months. Right. And so it took a little time for that all to build up. And it's also he's in a reelection. Right. So there were some countervailing incentives for him. Right. In that, in that moment of the final year. Right. And like you just imagine kind of the matter, like the George Floyd situation now or something worse than that. And yeah, I, I do think that the, the potential risk there is is just extremely high and like, much, much different than what we experienced the first time through. But, you know, I don't know. We could get lucky again. How many more days we have.

[Jonathan V. Last]

We could get lucky. I mean, this is so I, you know, the kind of. And I should say, like, I'm not saying civil war, because I, I mean, I don't think again, the divide is rural and urban, educated and educated. Like, it isn't a to divide. So I don't think. But what I'm saying is these things look like acts of aggression from one part of the country against another part of the country in ways which are. The only precedent is like, you know, the 1850s.

[Tim Miller]

Anyway, quick plug. Become a BL plus member. So you can listen to these deep thoughts from JVL and Sarah on every Friday, but just I listen to Friday's secret. The argument you're basically making also is just that, like, it's hard to unwind this stuff. Then it becomes, oh, yeah, well, that.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I just don't see how you unwind.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And do you? No.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Sarah's like, we'll just build something better on top of it.

[Tim Miller]

I was like, it's like, sure, I can think about ways to unwind it. Right. Like you have some extreme, some, you know, white knight, charismatic outsider, you know, type Democrat actually wins in 2028 and like, gets a mandate to reorganize, like, the way these systems work and. Sure. Like, I don't, I don't know, like you can imagine ways out of it, but it's, it's hard to see it practically. And, and I don't necessarily mean there's a way out of it. Like, we live in permanent autocracy. I'm not doing the Tucker thing where I think that we're going from one dictator to the other. I just mean, like, there's a lot of these things that he has broken institutionally. Like, the one that I just keep coming back to is the doj. Like, the notion of an independent doj. I do not understand how that gets reconstituted, you know? Right. I mean, maybe some new fresh thing could. Right. But like, you know, and the next Democrat that comes in won't be able to act like Merrick Garland. Then the Republican that comes in will overstate whatever the Democrat did and use it as a rationale for going even further than Trump. It just seems Like a total race to the bottom on, like, in that. And like, yeah, losing an independent rule of law. Federal judicial system is a pretty key cornerstone of liberal democracy.

[Jonathan V. Last]

You know, see, I. I think it'll be the opposite. I think what we'll do is we'll have an independent Justice Department under Democratic administrations and not under Republican administrations. I mean, that's the.

[Tim Miller]

That's a better scenario than what I laid out.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, is it?

[Tim Miller]

Barely. Barely.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I don't see how Republicans don't do this with the Justice Department forever. Right. Unless. Unless there are some really bad consequences for the people involved in this, which, spoiler there won't be. Like, isn't this the norm for Republican governments? Isn't this just the table ante for. If you are a Republican president, this is how your Justice Department has to function.

[Tim Miller]

Yes. I mean, I mean, you think that the next J.D. vance government would be different. I just don't even know how you could imagine that.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I just don't.

[Tim Miller]

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[Jonathan V. Last]

Our friend Dimitri.

[Tim Miller]

Dimitri, we'll just call him Dimitri. He's in charge of the CDC's Division for Immunization and respiratory disease. Obviously had a huge influence over COVID vaccine and approvals and all that. He is getting pushed out because. Or pushing himself out basically because, you know, they were getting rid of essentially the COVID vaccine. There are certain people for whom getting the COVID booster is still really important. I got a buddy who just got a Covid this weekend. She couldn't go out. She couldn't go out and about. This fight is happening internally. And you've got Trump now sending a post this morning that I have to read you. Jbl. It's very important that the drug companies justify the success of their various Covid drugs. Many people think that they're a miracle that saved billions of lives. Others disagree with CDC being ripped apart over this question. Is that what it's being ripped apart over? I want the answer and I want it now. I've been shown information from Pfizer and others that is extraordinary, but they never seem to show those results to the public. Why not? They go off on the next hunt and let everyone rip themselves apart, including Bobby Kennedy Jr. They show me great numbers and results, but they don't seem to be showing them to many others. What's he even talking about? I want them to show them now. I hope Operation Warp Speed was brilliant, as many say it was. If not, we all want to know about it and why.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I don't know what you want. He's not the president or anything. He's just a guy sitting there reading the news, same as anybody else. You know, look at this thing that's happening at the cdc. It's being ripped apart by some force.

[Tim Miller]

It's kind of funny that the ripping apart is happening within Trump. You know, he wants to take credit for it so badly, but he also knows that he needs the quacks and the cranks, you know, and so, like, within a single bleat, he is, you know, he's vacillating back and forth.

[Jonathan V. Last]

It's the most passive voice thing ever, right?

[Tim Miller]

But meanwhile, like, and this goes back to kind of what you wrote on Thursday, within this administration, the inertia is to burning things down, right? Like Trump, no matter how much Trump wants to take credit for this, it's like the people with the power and the momentum are the cranks, the one, the ones that want to tear down the institution. And so it's kind of like, what could Pfizer possibly put forth, besides what has already been put forth, that would change the momentum of this? Right. The only way to change the momentum of this would be for Trump to say, I actually, the CDC matters. I care about people's health. Bobby Kennedy's a quack. I don't want people randomly shooting off about mitochondrial shortages, you know, who aren't doctors, making decisions about vaccines. So we're going to push Bobby's side and bring in an actual professional. He's not going to do that.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I'll be hopeful for a minute. I think the, the case of HHS in Bobby Kennedy is a very pure causal relationship to one guy, right? If, if Trump just puts generic MAGA grown up, you know, number one in that job, like Mick Mulvaney, right? Not even like a super grown up, but just like a, a good, super partisan Republican in there. Even Mark Meadows, Mark Meadows, Mark Meadows in charges of hhs, none of this stuff happens. And it doesn't happen because Trump doesn't care about it. Like this, none of this is the will of Trump. This is all because this is Bobby Kennedy's personal obsessions and that Trump felt like he Owed Kennedy something. That's all this is. If Kennedy were to drop dead of, you know, like he did so many pull ups that his arms fell off, you know, and, and, and he just.

[Tim Miller]

HGH overdose.

[Jonathan V. Last]

HGH overdose. Tomorrow this stuff could all go back to normal because it's just about him. And there is no, I mean there are other cranks, but the other cranks don't have any sort of like political power behind them. And this isn't as far as I could tell, something that anybody else in the administrator. Does Christy Noem give a shit about this? Does JD Vance give a shit about this? I don't think so. I mean they might have anti vax sympathies, but not enough to.

[Tim Miller]

But at this point though, here's the problem though. At this point he's already hired like the Means family and like, you know, some, and some other random like weirdos from Silicon Valley, you know, who have decided that like the right thing to do is just do anabolic steroids and green juice. Like that's the thing that everyone should be doing. It's like they're now in and what, these doctors are going to come back. Let's say he did. Let's say he did say, Bobby, this is embarrassing. You know, this is how Trump responds sometimes to certain things. Like some rich guy's wife has cancer and is in Florida and can't get the COVID vaccine anymore. And so he calls Trump and he's like, what the fuck? My wife is dying and she can't. Or probably more likely, I'm dying. Trump will care about the wife. I'm dying and I can't get the COVID vaccine is crazy. You got to. And Trump's like our screw you, Bobby, you know, and he has someone else fire him because he doesn't fire anybody. Do you think Dimitri is coming back? Do you think that the. You know what I mean, isn't it too late?

[Jonathan V. Last]

I don't think Dimitri is coming back. But you could hold the status quo where it is, right, and ratchet back some of the other stuff. And here's, here's why I was being hopeful. What if Trumpism is like that? No, I don't think it is.

[Tim Miller]

Like if Trump and Bobby just both went away.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Trump, what if Trump goes away, you know, because he just decides it's too much work, he wants to retire. I don't really believe that. But this is the. Again me trying to be quasi hopeful that maybe some of this stuff is really idiosyncratic and is really tied to the Single figure who has gathered behind him a tremendous amount of popular power in political power. Maybe things could be okay. I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I think that some of Trump's idiosynchronicities. That's not the right word, but whatever. If you know what people know what I'm trying to get. It's a holiday weekend. Like, you know, the Putin love might go away, right? At some level, maybe not, you know, I don't know, some of, like, Trump's random, like, obsessions maybe, But I think the broader authoritarian, nationalist populist project is still continues apace.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I think so, too. I think so, too. I was just trying to be. You said things could be hopeful, and.

[Tim Miller]

I thought you were going with the things that could be helpful in the cdc is that, you know, maybe some people. Maybe some people suffer the consequences of their own health choices. I thought that's what it's going to be. Your. Your optimism.

[Jonathan V. Last]

No, and to be clear, I think that will be terrible when it happens. But, you know, life is red in tooth and claw, right? I mean, this is like, we have. We have spent a lot of money in America trying to insulate from the consequences of their decisions. And maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for people to see them again. I don't know. I'm just talking out loud here.

[Tim Miller]

Isn't it crazy that, like, an anti Vax maniac fired 500 bullets at the CDC, like, two weeks ago or something, and, like, we just by luck the one security guard died, you know, God love him, Rip. And that's awful, but, like, because it was only one person and we live in a country where we have, like, mass shootings all the time, like, one death doesn't really merit it, like, big news anymore. And so, like, simultaneously, we have this total, like, insane person who's been radicalized by a specific political movement shooting literal bullets at the CDC while the President and the head of HHS are dismantling CDC from the inside. And that story just goes away. And like you, in different years, that would be the biggest story of the year.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like that almost every day, almost literally. That's why the last two weeks were so hard for me personally, because I felt like every single day there was something that I thought, well, shit, this would have been the biggest story of the year. This would be a defining moment. And it's just another day that ends in y. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

In 1997, people would have had, like, CDC ribbons.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Oh, my gosh. Can you imagine yeah, yeah. The double weirdness of, you know, a guy who's shooting up the CDC at the same moment that the CDC is being realigned to his priorities. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, that's the double weirdness of. You have to imagine if you're on the inside of it and you're like a normal human being just going to work. You feel like you're getting it going to work, you feel like from both sides, right? You have this fifth column, which is now in charge of your organization. And you have also literal people on the outside shooting at your organization because you're not already. But it's just, it's bad. But your question is, how does that go back together? I don't think it does. I mean, for one of the one reason, we're going to get a whole bunch of studies coming out of the government around health and science over the next three years, three and a half years, we're not going to be able to trust any of them. Right. Any study that comes out of HHS that Bobby Kennedy has put his stamp on, nobody can. We saw the, the first thing they put out that was like written by AI, right? It is going to be like the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And what does that mean when the federal government is no longer a trusted clearinghouse just for basic information and data? Like, I just don't know, like, so what? So we then say on January 21, 2029, okay, now we can all trust the federal government again, trust us.

[Tim Miller]

How does that.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Like, that doesn't work.

[Tim Miller]

It's hard. And then people also don't think about the other stuff, which is then the bad faith treatment. Like again, let's say a Democrat wins. Let's say it's somebody who's committed to re changing to fixing the institutions, which I think would be a pretty probably not politically potent campaign strategy. But let's say it works because things are so bad and they will get in anyway and then they try to fix it. It's like, okay, well what if inevitably when that CDC fucks up because they'll do something wrong because we're still humans, even when the adults are in charge, they still make mistakes. And we saw this during COVID Then the radical, you know, fifth column within that the people that are still there and then on the outside, you know, you use that to undermine their credibility again. And then eventually the other side, right, like that, that, that was really more your point. Not that like we are, we are in a dictatorship now permanently, but like that these These problems, you know, that, like, the thing, the trust that underpinned the liberal democratic society, like, once broken.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Is that's gone, right? And that's, that's that, like, simple, complex system thing.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, y', all, I warned you. I warned you. Our Toronto show has sold out. The Canadians love Sam Stein so much that, you know, there are lines around the block to get tickets to it. But the good news is we still have tickets left for our live shows in Washington, D.C. and in New York coming up in early October. So go get those tickets [e-mail] events. I'm missing LSU versus South Carolina for you guys. I'm going to be in New York for that. And so assuming that's an afternoon game, I might have a couple of bourbons in me by the time we get on stage on Saturday night. So that one could be a rowdy one. So if you're looking for an excuse to get to the Big Apples, you know, go see a show Friday night, come see us Saturday night. Could be a fun little weekend. Go get tickets. Like I said, thebork.com events theborg.com events see y' all soon. While we're doing health stuff, just. Do you have any hot takes really quick on? Trump wasn't out that much this weekend. He didn't look great going to the golf course. We saw two pictures of him. He looked a little feeble. He was going to golf, I noticed. We didn't get any pictures of him golfing. We just got him in the motorcade back and forth. He did post a bunch yesterday, including, never felt better in my life, all caps. So I think that. Does that settle it for you?

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, a couple things. First of all, during the Cabinet meeting, you notice the great lengths he took to keeping that one hand underneath the table? That was the thing. He did two. I mean, during the Cold War, the CIA had an entire division, which all it did was keep track of pictures of members of the politburo to try to figure out their health. Like, you know, oh, is, is Volkovnikov, is he, is he sick? Does he look like he has cancer? What is his life expectancy? They're doing their own actuarial work because they're trying to understand what the dynamics looks like. And that has now come to America. Like we, we are now, we sit around and the only health reports we get from the President are obviously ridiculous. Right. You know, we thought, oh, he, you know, he only weighs 220 pounds, really. Right. He's in the best, the most spectacular.

[Tim Miller]

Health ever he can throw a spiral better than Joe Burrow. Just some.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Right. And so none of this, none of, none of this stuff can be taken at face value because again, that is clear. Like living in a dictatorship type stuff. And we now live in a world where when this president goes dark for 72 hours, people got to be like, is. Is he dead? Yeah, because we're living in, in like The Kremlin of 1980.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Are you like, freaked out by this? Because this fact really, really makes me like, this is dictatorship stuff. Like, this is not normal democracy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no, it's obviously not normal. And it's very strange to live in this situation. And you would have thought that people would have rebelled against it in a greater way than they have. I mean, I don't know. Why would I be freaked out by it? Does Trump's. Trump's health, you know, Good luck.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Did you see JD Last week?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Talking about how he's ready.

[Jonathan V. Last]

God forbid. How do you think Trump takes that?

[Tim Miller]

I think probably okay for now, just because JD has just been such a slavish suck up. But I don't know, maybe he starts to get thoughts.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Has he been. I don't know. He sort of. He didn't like the idea of bombing Iran again. He's used a couple public formulations of Trump with regard to both Iran and the Epstein files, which were instead of just like, I support him, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's. He's really earned the benefit of the doubt.

[Tim Miller]

He thinks he's clever.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but if I was Trump, I would look at that and be like, hey, dude, get in line.

[Tim Miller]

I would just say what I actually think is happening is that Trump needed rest because he, he's 79 years old and he's been keeping a really pretty heavy schedule. People need to remember that he is actually a human being. Like, he's not like a villain from one of the superhero movies that you watch.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Cankles. A friend of mine said we are gonna wind up being like the Cuban people who spent 20 years waiting for Castro to die.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, for sure.

[Jonathan V. Last]

And that then when it turns out he does die, it's so late in the day that it doesn't matter.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Oh, no, definitely. I 100% agree with that. I think he likely will outlive me. It's like a fucking lizard person. We had some actual news I want to talk to you about. There was a summit in China over the weekend. Putin, Modi Xi altogether looking very chummy. Putin and Modi in the Back of a limo. Just kind of a noteworthy visual choice by them.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Or trom night.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. After Trump invited Putin into his limo, Modi talking about, you know, how insightful Putin is. I mean, again, in a different world, this would be setting off really like five alarm fires here in America. Right. Like this axis forming over there of these other authoritarians. And you'd think that Trump would be wanting to try to coalesce the freedom loving countries throughout the world. That's what traditionally we'd been doing in the post World War II era. Not happening, actually. We're alienating our allies and Trump's, I guess, threatening. Trump doesn't want to ever threaten Putin with any actual consequences. So the stick that the administration has used to go after Russia kind of since they haven't ended the war, as these tariffs on India as a punishment for buying Russian oil. So we're punishing India, not Russia really. And India's response seems to be, you know, sidling up to Russia and China even more so. I don't know what you make of all that.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, well, I mean, here's the good news. It could have been worse. Trump could have also have been there. Right, right. I mean the good news is that the axis of authoritarians so far does not seem, they seem to believe that they should be setting up an opposition to America and not including America. So good for us.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's good, I guess.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Right? I mean this is, you could see a world in which like Trump is over there and they're all taking sides.

[Tim Miller]

So when you said 90 worst case outcomes, you know, we haven't, we haven't.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Reached that, we haven't gotten to that one yet. So it's really pretty interesting and I think it's a sign. I know I wrote this after, you know, Mark Carney came out and said the, Canada's got to look elsewhere because the, the relationship with America is no longer operable. The rest of the world is moving on. And that's what I think America doesn't quite understand. Some of us do, but, but I think most Americans don't. The rest of the world is moving on because they realize that this isn't just Trump. Trump happening once can be just bad luck, but twice means that like the character of the American people can no longer be relied upon. Like, this is a, this is a verdict on all of America. It's not about Trump and you can't make plans. America is weak and China is just saying like, look, we are what we are, but we're not crazy and we don't go careening. We don't do, like, you know, 10% tariffs on day one and then 39% tariffs on day two, and then 22% tariffs on day three. Like, you can do business with us. You can make plans around us.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. We might steal some of your ip, right?

[Jonathan V. Last]

No, like, we are what we are. You know, we're not gonna. But that's the. It's also interesting that China's not trying to pretend that there's something different. Right. They're just saying, like, we are. We are gangsters, but we are orderly gangsters.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Jonathan V. Last]

And if you go under. Under our umbrella, you'll be able to do what you want to do, less or more. You'll have to pay the juice to us. But, you know, it's not like those crazy guys over there where you can't, you know, that's like, going to work for, I don't know, Elon. Elon or something. Right. So you have them together where America's friends. Right. Europe is preparing to go without us. Right. They are in the process of making alternative security arrangements that will lead to alternative economic arrangements.

[Tim Miller]

The sharia oligarchs in the. In the Middle east are our friends now. Qatar, I guess there's that Sharia law.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Oil, Qatar, and the Saudis, that will be. Those will be our.

[Tim Miller]

El Salvador is the key ally of us now.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, that's great. This stuff is all going to continue to happen, and there's nothing. I mean, clearly, there's nothing Trump can do. It is also funny to me that Trump wants in with them so bad. Right. Because Trump really does see himself as a Putin or a Xi, and they're happy to, like, coddle him and play him when they're in front of him, but they know he's so stupid that they can also just keep doing whatever they want to do. Right. And, you know, and so they're going and creating a post American world order, which. Which so are the Europeans. And what are we doing? We're driving biomedical research and pharmaceutical research out of the country. We are blowing up our own gdp.

[Tim Miller]

I thought Jake Sullivan was so good on this. On China, too. Like, in, like, we're just getting played. And Trump still, like, he cares most about the deal, like, the ornament that he can have. Like, meanwhile, we're, like, bringing in 600,000 Chinese students to go to. We're doubling the amount of, you know, because he wants Xi to like him. He wants Putin to like him still. It would be, like, easier, I guess, to rail against if it was purely nefarious, but like there's a nefariousness to it with Trump, but also like this kind of weakness of admiration that he has for those, for the people in that, at that summit and kind of this disdain for most of the Democratic leaders besides the ones that are good at golf, like the guy from Finland. That's why they keep him around. But so, you know, like that part you can imagine, kind of a right wing nationalist leader of America that's malicious, that still has the masked guys taking people off the streets, but that also is really trying, like, at least has a vision for what a strong America countering, like China would look like. And like, that's not what we're doing at all.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Just take the, the India stuff, right? I mean, driving India into China's arms. I mean, this is, you know, they have a disputed border and China is being like super magnanimous about it. They're like, hey, we're not gonna let this one thing define our relationship because Trump doesn't want to go after Putin. I mean, because that's what it is, right? He is, he has decided he's going to blow up the American Indian relationship in order to, to make sure that he can not offend Vlad, his, his friend.

[Tim Miller]

Yes, that's literally. What is that?

[Jonathan V. Last]

And it's, it's crazy because it's so stupid. And as you say, there's no, there's no sign. You know what's going to happen on Wednesday, Tim?

[Tim Miller]

What's that?

[Jonathan V. Last]

G's having a big old military parade in Beijing.

[Tim Miller]

He's gonna be jealous.

[Jonathan V. Last]

His guest, a special guest, is going to be little rocket man Kim Jong Un. And I would bet you anything that Trump is obsessed with what that parade looks like. I mean, and that is because I think we're going to have another military parade.

[Tim Miller]

He wasn't happy with ours.

[Jonathan V. Last]

The army let him down. It was a sad military parade. And so he's going to ask the. I think it's the navy to do better. Hand to God, I mean, we are going to have an American president watching a Chicom military parade with envy because that's the world we live in now.

[Tim Miller]

Just want to throw one last thing on this. I don't know if you knew this shout out to our friends at Playbook because I didn't have it marked on my calendar. Today is Trump's latest deadline for Putin to make progress on peace in Ukraine. That was today. Remember, we had the 90 and the 30 days.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Didn't Macron say something about.

[Tim Miller]

Putin Will.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Have played him again if. No, no. Ceasefire happens by Monday. There we are.

[Tim Miller]

Here we are, Monday. All right, final topic. I couldn't let this go by. I need to talk to somebody about it. Did you see the Rudy Giuliani press release over the weekend?

[Jonathan V. Last]

Sure did.

[Tim Miller]

I have so many questions about it. For anybody who's enjoying their Labor Day and missed it, I don't know. Might have been distracted by other things, like LSU's dominating victory over Clemson in Little Death Valley. Here is the statement that you might have missed. On the evening of August 30, 2025 in New Hampshire, Mayor Giuliani was involved in a motor vehicle accident. Okay. Prior to the incident, he was flagged down by a woman who was the victim of a domestic violence incident. Mayor Giuliani immediately rendered assistance and contacted 911. That's nice. Seems like a Batman figure. He remained on the scene until responding officers arrived to ensure her safety. Following this, while traveling on the highway, Mary Giuliani's vehicle was struck from behind at high speed. He was transported to a nearby trauma center, where he was diagnosed with a fractured thoracic vertebrae. His business partner and medical provider were promptly contacted and arrived at the hospital to oversee his care. At this time, no further updates are available. This is the only statement authorized by Mayor Giuliani, signed, Michael Ragusa, head of Mary Giuliani Security. I have so many questions, starting with, how does Mary Giuliani still have security? Who's paying for that? Does he. Why does he still have a business partner? What's his business? I thought that. Thought that he had to pay the Georgia election workers, so I thought he had a lot of debts still.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Maybe the security is being provided pro bono, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

By who?

[Jonathan V. Last]

I don't know. This is the fishiest car accident story since the Tiger woods golf club thing. Remember? Like, oh, Tiger woods being involved in a car. You know, he was in his driveway. It was. It was the holiday. Who can say? We don't know what happened here.

[Tim Miller]

It's like, wait a minute. Why was. Why was he injured in a car accident in his driveway? What.

[Jonathan V. Last]

What is he doing in New Hampshire? Is he. Does he have business in New Hampshire?

[Tim Miller]

Is that a.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Like, is Giuliani doing a lot of business up in New Hampshire?

[Tim Miller]

I think he has a lover in New Hampshire. Maybe. Allegedly. I've heard. I don't know for true.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Does he just pull up whenever he sees a car? Pull over on the side with flashers? Does Rudy just hop off? And is he a white knight of the. Of the Roads. Is that what he's up to? And then he's like, oh, yeah, well, I'm. Any of the Rudy Giuliani that we have seen in public over the last eight years suggest that he has the wherewithal to operate a motor vehicle on his own, that he was the security driver?

[Tim Miller]

Was he driving? Why was it, why was he at high speed after this? How does it relate to the domestic violence incident?

[Jonathan V. Last]

He's then waiting on the side for the police. He's the one who interfaces with the police. He's then. He is then being pursued at high speed. All of this is. I mean, maybe it's true, but I get the sense. And then following this, the sort of. This is the only statement, please respect your privacy again. I have to feel that if it unfolded in the way that that has been presented to us that Rudy wouldn't shut up about it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you'd want to do many interviews. He'd be on the Today show.

[Jonathan V. Last]

He would be in every, you know, Rudy Giuliani rehabilitates himself. Rudy Giuliani, finally, the new America's mayor is back. I hope we find out what this is all about someday, because I bet it's great. Do you have theories, do you have any guesses as to what this might be?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I think the safest theory always is that Rudy was drinking because he drinks a lot, which is fine. I mean, as long as it's not causing other problems in your life. And I don't know if that caveat applies to Rudy.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Clearly, Rudy's been fine, so.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but again, it's 10pm Saturday night on 93. I don't know. I don't really have a great theory. And I think that probably the best theory. Who the hell knows? Who the hell knows? I'd like to know more. We'll keep an eye on this story. We'll be monitoring this story.

[Jonathan V. Last]

You know, the reason I want to know more, Tim, is because I want to make sure that I can afford Rudy the plaudits that he deserves for saving a woman who is the victim of domestic abuse, allegedly. And so that is the only reason I want to know more is because I feel like his reputation, which has taken a little bit of a hit over the last eight years or so, we deserve to be able to see him for the. The real man of courage that he is. And I just want to know more so we can all celebrate that.

[Tim Miller]

And at the bulk, we like to give credit. Where do you know? Even if we have some disagreements, it's important that we acknowledge the successes of our political foes. All right, jvl, thank you for subbing. What a show. A little longer than I meant it to be, but hopefully everybody enjoyed the bonus minutes. And we'll be talking to you on Wednesday at the Next level. If people aren't downloading the Next Level with you, me and Sarah on Wednesdays, what do they do I with their lives? Honestly?

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, clearly they're just Tim Stans who don't like it when me and Sarah are there.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think that. That can't be. I could not possibly be.

[Jonathan V. Last]

It's getting over your genius.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I don't think so. I appreciate that. All right. Thank you, jbl. And no more compliments, please. Everybody else, we'll see you tomorrow. We got an old friend coming on the show. It'll be a good one. Catch you then, Pen.

[Musical Performer]

Oh, don't give a let's break let's break on let's break on down and I'll go away we'll make a mistake Everybody cut Everybody cut Everybody cut loose everybody Everybody cut Everybody cut Everybody cut loose now and shake that butt and on the way.

[Tim Miller]

Sam. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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