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Hello and welcome to the Bulwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have a different one for you today. I had the honor of being asked to interview former vice president Kamala Harris at her book tour stop in Nashville last night, Tuesday night. And it was such a cool experience for me, I gotta say, being inside the Ryman, I guess I've seen a show there. My friends have seen so many shows. There's so many. I've streamed so many such this historic venue. So, so many of my favorites have played there. And it's beautiful inside. And so to be able to interview Kamala Harris, there was really special pack crowd. I mean, obviously there's just still this desire and fervor for, what would you call it, you know, rationality, resistance out there. I mean, the line was just wrapped around the block for this event. Over 2,000 people showed up. They're rowdy and, you know, I think we had a good conversation. The book is a little bit of a different kind of book. 107 days. She goes more into kind of the inner workings of the campaign than you usually get from the candidate book. You know, I think that. And she says this, I think that she felt like she really wanted her voice to be in the historical perspective of this, of this campaign because a lot of this stuff was out of her hands. And she gets picked to be vp. I ask her about this, she gets sidelined a little bit inside the Biden White House, and then this campaign is thrust upon her. One more thing before we get into the interview. One thing that's different about this show is that I give you my candid thoughts about everybody and that informs the interview. And I think anybody who listens to this know that candidly, to the extent that there are is a back and forth he said, she said between the Biden campaign team and the Biden White House team and the vice president's team, I'm extremely sympathetic to the vice president. In a world where we started from scratch, would she have ended up being the nominee? Would she have been the best nominee? My favorite choice? I don't know. Probably not. I think we can just be honest about that. But she ran, I think, a pretty good campaign given the horrible situation she was put into. And I don't think that she was set up for success. That's one thing I really try to ask her about because I think that's important. We also do news of the day. We also give her a chance to let her rip about Donald Trump, and we talk about the future of the Democratic Party. I feel blessed to have had the opportunity, so I hope you guys enjoy it. We'll be back to our kind of quasi normal schedule. Now. I'll be taping early because I'm going from one VP to another. I'm going from interviewing Vice President Harris to attending Vice President Cheney's funeral in D.C. so we taping a little early tomorrow, and then I'll be in New York on Friday, and then we'll be back in my Pinto Bean studio on Monday. So stick around for my interview with Kamala Harris. Hope you enjoyed as much as I did. All right, everybody, y' all ready? The former Vice President of the United States, Kamala Harris.
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Tennessee.
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B
Welcome. Hey, Kamala. Hey. Hi, I'm Adam, vice President.
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A
How are you?
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B
Welcome to the South. Good.
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A
It's good to be back.
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B
Ryman Auditorium. Pretty great.
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A
I know.
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B
I want to talk about the book, obviously, 107 days, but it was a crazy day in Washington. Can we talk about that just a little bit first? Do you mind?
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A
Sure. I mean, I've been hanging out in Nashville. It's a good place to be these days.
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B
So the Saudi crown prince, mbs, was in the Oval Office today, and a reporter asked him and President Trump about James Khashoggi, the journalist that had been murdered by MBS with a bone saw. And our president berated that reporter, and then he said of Khashoggi that this guy was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman. And then closed with things happen. Wonder what you make of that.
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A
So let's level set. We're talking about an American journalist who was murdered. We're talking about an American journalist who was murdered. And we are talking about the American intelligence community determined he was murdered. And today we're talking about an American president who chooses to overlook the significance and seriousness of that, because, as I said on the debate stage, one, he will be motivated in so many ways and certainly on foreign policy, by flattery and favor. And remember, and I talked about this, we all knew it. This is not the first time he has bypassed America's intelligence community and the significance of what it says and advises for the sake of his personal gain and benefit. It's outrageous. And it is dangerous to our national security to have a President of the United States who does not appreciate the American intelligence community making decisions about what the American people should know and the basis of a President's decisions and in.
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B
This case, direct personal gain. You know, the MBS has invested in his family and his son in law invested in.
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A
I know what I said.
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B
Yeah. I know why there isn't really a parallel to this in American history. Like the business, the entanglements that he has with these foreign dictators and they're Sharia law countries. And now they get to kill our journalists, come to the White House and the President sides with them over the free press. It's crazy.
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A
I mean, Tim, we know what it is. It is not only crazy, it is corrupt. It is callous and incompetent all at the same time.
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B
Yeah. Whew. Well, good. I was fired up about that one today. I'm glad we're on the same page.
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A
Oh, Bina, we're here for some truth talk.
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B
Here's another thing that happened today. The House passed a resolution to release the Epstein files after quite a fight. And I'm interested in your take on that broadband. But there's one person in particular. I'm curious what your thoughts are on a surprising ally.
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A
There's so many in this story. Who's the one today? Who's the one you're interested in?
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B
I was thinking about Marjorie Taylor Greene. Not a traditional friend of ours, but she was having a press conference today and I gotta say. Well, I'll just read it to you. Trump called me a traitor for standing with these women and refusing to take my name off the discharge petition. Let me tell you what a traitor is. A traitor is an American that serves foreign countries and themselves. A patriot is an American that serves the United States and Americans. Like the women standing behind me. That was Marjorie Taylor Greene today.
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A
Good for her.
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B
What do you think? How do we process that, given her past?
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A
Well, let me start with the fact that her words are accurate. One must match up their words with their deeds. But her words are accurate and good for her for speaking those words. My understanding is she was with a collection, a group of survivors of sexual assault. And as many of you know, I started my career as a courtroom prosecutor prosecuting those kinds of cases. And so standing up with those women to speak about their right to ensure that justice be served, that there be accountability, that those women be given dignity in the Process is an admirable thing to do. And I do hope that, you know, we can figure out a way to your point of your confusion on all this, to reconcile her past statements and deeds with what she is saying now. But I applaud what she said today.
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B
What do you think? How do Democrats think about that, though? I don't, you know, because look, at some level, if Democrats are ever going to win again, I mean, you're not just going to need people like me that were Republicans 100 years ago, right. Like, you're going to need people that voted for him a third time after the insurrection, people that we have issues with. And Marjorie Taylor Greene is very representative of that. And so you see someone like that speaking truth on this issue. How do you think about that from a political standpoint?
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A
I don't think anyone should ever be criticized when wisdom finally arrives.
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B
Amen. Good enough. I do notice we're getting the book. I had to write this down. This is just a Marjorie Taylor Greene love fest here. Did you guys know you were signing up for that? Because you mentioned in the book that when Laura Loomer, the Trump acolyte, that's like randomly firing people in the government now, did a racist joke or not a joke, made a racist tweet about what the White House would smell like if you got in there, Marjorie Taylor Greene shot back at her. And you wrote in the book about this, you said, if you can offend Marjorie Taylor Greene, you're really at the deep end of the hate pool. But, you know, I guess allies can come in strange faces sometimes.
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A
Like I said, I applaud what she said today. And let's see what happens next.
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B
Do you have hope on the Epstein files stuff?
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A
Here's how I feel about the Epstein files. I think it is again, just another. The current president's statements, most recently about this are another example of him attempting to gaslight the American people. And I say that because all of a sudden he is saying he'll wait to see what Congress does. Since when? All of a sudden, now he's waiting for Congress to greenlight what he will do or wants to do. Come on. So release the files. Release the files. He is the President of the United States. He is the head of the executive branch. He has taken unilateral action without concern about the three CO/ of government on almost everything he has done. So release the files.
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B
On this issue and other issues. Do you look back at the doj, you know, during the Biden Harris administration and think, man, I wish that we should have done more on this or that. I mean, there wasn't a lot of Merrick Garland doesn't even show up in the book. Actually.
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A
I do believe that we have to fight fire with fire, but maintaining all the while our principles and what we know to be ethically correct. And that includes the fact that, and I say this, as a former Attorney General, I ran the second largest department of justice in the United States, second only to the United States Department of Justice when I was California Attorney General for two terms. And there is a reason that our democracy has relied on the fact that these will be independent branches of our government, the judicial branch from the executive and the legislative. And a President of the United States should not be interfering with that other branch. And in particular, as we have seen and the evidence is front and center that again, we predicted it, that he was going to weaponize the Department of Justice against his political enemies. And we would never and nor should we ever consider taking that approach. It is a corruption of our whole ideal about the importance of rule of law and the concept of justice.
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Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. At a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable, Deleteme does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites. Delete Me knows your privacy is worth protecting. Sign up and provide Deleteme with exactly what information you want deleted. And their experts take it from there. Deleteme sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it, and what they removed. This isn't just a one time service. Delete Me is always working for you. Constantly monitoring and removing personal information you don't want on the Internet. As somebody with an active online presence. Got a bunch of people, you know, who don't really like all my tweets. I know that's surprising to you because my tweets are fucking tens. All of them. Everyone is a perfect 10. And yet, you know, you can't please everybody. And so sometimes they want to do shit to me, like troll me or whatever. And the nefarious ones that sit in their basement and have nothing better to do, you know, go to look for my personal data online. And so I love having Delete Me around to make their life as hard as possible. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to joinedeleteme.com bulwark and use promo code Bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark code bulwark. I want to get to the book. It shows you where the crowd is right now that we're not doing. Screaming for the rule of law and the concept of justice right now. I think that there's some in the party that have this desire for, I think, street justice, maybe alley justice right now. And I get that.
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A
Well, look, I mean, we cannot subvert rule of law.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Ma'.
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B
Am.
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At the same time, we need to be able to throw punch.
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B
Yep. I said that to get. Because I do want to. Obviously, the book is about these under seven days, and it's a little. It's a little traumatic for all of us. I mean, not to make this about me. I think this is. I think this is probably true for everybody in here.
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I'm feeling.
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B
Thank you. I just. I just wanted you to win so fucking bad and. Yeah, but like, here's the thing with that, right? Like that want. So then you're reading all this and you wanted it, and these emotions come up for a lot of people. And I look, I think about. I'm thinking about after the election when I called my husband the next day, and I was like, how's our daughter doing? And he said, she asked me why I took the sign down. And so I had to tell her. And I just, you know. And so we think about the weight of all that, and I think that people process it differently. And some people get pissed and some people get sad, and some people want to check out. And so before we get into all the details, because some of those emotions might come out, I just wonder, how do you deal with the weight of all of us that was on you? Do you think about it? Maybe you don't think about it.
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A
No, I mean, I write about it in the book. We had 107 days, and I was acutely aware of the stakes. And at the end of every day, each of those 107 days, my prayer included asking God that I. And prayed that I did everything that day I could possibly do. I knew how high the stakes were. And one of the. Actually, the most difficult chapter that I wrote in the book was about election night. And I will tell you, when I learned of the result of the election that night, I felt an Emotion I have not felt since my mother died. I was grieving and grieving for a while, and I was grieving on behalf of the people that I knew would be harmed. I knew what was going to happen. You know, I predicted just about everything except the capitulation. I didn't predict that, but I knew what it was going to mean. Tim. I couldn't. I write about it when I couldn't. I was so inarticulate, I couldn't say anything except my God, my God, my God, my God, when I learned the results. And, you know, and I we were there in D.C. because then, of course, the election happened. And then as Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate, it was my constitutional duty to certify the election. And I would be if I darned if I wasn't going to fulfill my constitutional duty with dignity and purpose. And that was January 6th, and some people don't know that four years before, on January 6th. Well, of course, you know that I was vice president elect that day, but I also was in. I was serving on the Senate Intelligence Committee, so I was still a senator and vice president elect. So that day, four years before, on January 6, I went to my committee meeting. And then after that, I went to the DNC offices to make calls to thank people. And I was sitting in the DNC offices when Secret Service rushed in and said, you have to leave right now because there was an active pipe bomb within feet of where I sat. And then they took me to a secret, undisclosed location, which was my apartment. I don't live there anymore, I could tell you now. And I sat there watching and then having calls with my Senate colleagues who were all basically in a bunker while it was happening. And then well past midnight, I went back to the Senate when Mike Pence did his duty to certify the election. So I was there on January 6 to certify the election in 2024, understanding that this otherwise kind of almost ceremonial job of a vice president became one of the most important acts of one of the highest officials in our country around our belief in the integrity of our democracy and our Constitution. So I was there for that. We then I write about it then during that period of time, my home state of California and where I live in Southern California was aflame with the wildfire. And then we learned that we had to evacuate our house while I was in D.C. and so our kids went and helped, but we were there in D.C. and we were watching it on the TV. And I kid you not, the chiron because we got tapped into the local news. The Chiron said, fire approaching Kamala Harris House. So anyway, all of this was happening and then the inauguration, and then thankfully, well, the inauguration was January 20th. The lift of the our house is fine. And then the lift of the evacuation was on January 19th. So not until the day before we were supposed to leave D.C. did we know if we'd have a house to go back to.
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B
Oh, my God.
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A
This is a very long way of saying it has taken me a long time to process.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because there was so much going on. But the emotions have been the full range of the emotions I think many of us have felt. And I think it is important to go through and process one's grief, their anger, sadness, and now take a rest. And that includes taking a minute, even now, so that we can regain our sense of our purpose, which is to fight and to understand that our fight is for something. It is for something. It is not against. It is for something. And we cannot, in this moment in time, afford to be with our covers over our heads saying, wake me up when it's over. That's not an option. That's not an option.
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B
Hey, y', all, we want to hear from you. What do you like of our offerings? I mean, besides me, of course. How do you watch or listen? Where are you tuning in from? In the show notes, you'll find a link to an audience survey we're conducting to help us get a better sense of who you are and get your feedback on our shows. We're cooking up some great plans for 2026, and this feedback is going to be invaluable. So please grab the link in the show notes. Thanks advance for your feedback. And it's okay. If you like somebody better than me, you can tell us. I want to go back to time in a second, but since you left it right there about how the fight is for something, I wonder how you would describe that and describe what it is that we're fighting for right now. Because one thing I look back on in the weeks before the election that made me a little nervous was I had James Carville on and I was asking him. I was like, I know what was on your whiteboard for Clinton. I'm not sure what it is right now. What is on our whiteboard? Like, how would you define that? Like, both, either for your campaign or like going forward right now? Like, what is it?
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A
Yeah, you know, I was talking with someone. I was doing an interview earlier, and I was asked about, you know, what is the vision for The Democratic Party. What do we stand for? What is the future? And here's how I feel about it. We are, we have to and we must and we will fight for affordable health care. We fight for affordable child care, the extension of the child tax credit. We fight against price gouging and going after corporate landlords who are buying up properties and jacking up rents. We fight for the dignity of working people. We fight so that it is not just about getting by, but getting ahead. These are the things that Democrats have to stand for and fight for. And we have to be clear that. You know, I think one of the pieces that was interesting about the shutdown that helped to at least emphasize one of these points was that that was the issue that Democrats were fighting for, was affordable health care and made it very clear. And that is a huge distinction between where we are as a party and. And where this current Republican Party is. But these are the things that we stand for. These are the things we fight for. We fight for future generations. Like I said, we fight for the future. We care about the children of America in the course of their life from the time that they need preschool and we need to have pre K through funding public schools and paying public school teachers.
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B
Yeah, you know, it's interesting to hear the beginning of that answer because there's a big kind of conversation happening out there right now about like what the Democratic Party is for and people in different factions have different views. And like the. As a former Republican, these aren't my people, but I'm interested in what they have to say. They're like the left faction, the Bernie faction. I think their critique of the party and maybe the last administration even or the campaign would be there wasn't enough focus going after the corporate raiders or the billionaires or the oligarchs and that the party really should be centering working people and going after those elites. And if they did that, they'd be more successful. Hearing your answer, you sounded a little bit like you talked a little bit like that. What do you say of that critique? That that was something that's maybe been missing from the Democratic Party and the establishment.
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A
I think that, look, when you talk about it in terms of what we. You look at the track record of what we have fought for. We have fought for things like the extension of the child tax credit. We have fought against what has been happening with this administration in terms of giving tax breaks for the richest people. We say that the money that is going to now a multitrillion dollar deficit because of tax Break breaks for the richest people should be invested in public health care, public education and public safety. That's what we stand for. We have not abandoned those priorities. And listen, our party has room for these differing opinions, but there are fundamental issues that the Democrats stand for, which includes going against corporate greed, going against anyone who is breaking the law at the of expense. Expensive working people.
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B
Yeah. So, I mean, do you think that's like something that Democrats need to be doing more and more now? Do you think that's a fair critique, I guess, of the party in the past that it had been too, I don't know, in league with the corporate establishment or anything?
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A
I don't think that that's the case. I don't think that's the case. When you look at what we have fought for, that actually there's been some opposition from. You could see that right now in terms of who's bending the knee at the foot of a tyrant.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And who has been capitulating. And just look at the behaviors right now to ask the question, where are they going and why are they going there? And did they give the same kind of deference to Democrats when they were running?
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B
Why didn't they, you know, why didn't Tim Cook come to the vice president's office and give you a trophy? I don't understand why these guys are doing that. They're so scared that Donald Trump's gonna tariff them that they have to go give him a trophy and fake awards.
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A
Let's focus. In all seriousness. What this administration is doing in terms of yielding to corporate interest on the backs of working people is almost criminal.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I go back to just days ago, practically during the shutdown, and what they did in terms of SNAP benefits. We're talking about hungry children in America. Hungry children in America and their willingness to deny benefits so that parents could feed their hungry children, so that parents were missing meals to ensure that their children would eat. So in all seriousness, if we're talking about this for the sake of the contrast, the contrast is clear. Who was fighting for affordable health care? Who was fighting so that premiums wouldn't be jacked up? Who was fighting for benefits for children to be able to eat on a daily basis and not have to skip a meal? The contrast is clear. So, you know, I think I say that to say let's. I know the punditry likes to engage in the circular firing squad around what Democrats are saying about each other.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But right now I think there is a real clear contrast in terms of where Democrats in elected office stand versus where the Republican Party is standing on fundamental issues that impact people in America. And that's where our focus should be. That's why this special election here in two weeks matters. That's why the midterms are going to matter. And we can engage in a more depth conversation about the other stuff.
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B
Yeah, I do wonder. Cause who cares about the Twitter wars? I mean, I engage in them sometimes, but we don't have to talk about that right now. We all have vices. I do wonder, though, listening to you say that, like I agree with the contrast couldn't be clearer. And yet the Republicans did better last time with working class people than they had back when it was Mitt Romney or John McCain or, you know, they did better than they have in a long time. And so I just. What do you think is the answer of what the disconnect is there? Like, was the message not getting through? Was it a cultural, was it not economic issues? Was it cultural issues? Like, what's your theory of why the Democrats lost a little ground with working class?
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A
Well, I think there's been over quite a lengthy period of time, probably a decade, we've been seeing a decline if we're talking about the 107 days. Well, for example, one of the issues that I care deeply about, and it's born out of a personal experience, but it's a personal experience for so many of us, is the affordability of family caregiving, in particular around the sandwich generation, for example, those who are raising their young children while taking care of their elder relatives. And my proposal, with all the work that was done to know that it was doable, was that Medicare would cover home health care for those families so that people wouldn't go bankrupt trying to take care of their family or have to go bankrupt because they would have to leave their job to care for family. This was an issue that had a lot of traction with voters once they heard about it. Part of the challenge in those 107 days, you know, marketing people say you have to hear something three times before you actually absorb it. And, and it took time, but the momentum was there. I have talked candidly about the fact that among my reflections, I think that if we had done it differently, it would have been better, which is to order our priorities around doing the infrastructure bill and the CHIPS act, good work, but doing that after we first did the family piece that was about extension of the child tax credit, paid family leave, affordable childcare. And that's why my campaign was focused on those issues, because those are immediate Issues that are affecting people across the board.
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B
Going back to the 107 days, kind of going back before the 107 days. But you talked about this. One of the reasons it was only 107 days is because you are the veep. And that's such a weird job. I mean, we've all watched the show, right? But you have this like contrast between you're doing this super consequential work, right? You're talking to Angela Merkel and you're dealing with all these very serious issues. And yet at the same time you're also kind of at the mercy of like random 20something staffers that work for the President and at the White House and that there can be like a tension between those two things. And you talk about that a little bit in the book. And I'm just wondering if you feel like you are able to demonstrate the serious, consequential part of the work when you're a VP in a way that prepared you for a campaign and set you up for a campaign to be successful.
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A
So it's the first time I've been number two in a job.
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B
Including your marriage.
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A
But it is vice President, not president. And so that is the job. But the job included the fact that I have, as vice president, had the experience of. I've met with over 150 world leaders, presidents, prime ministers, chancellors and kings, many multiple times and developed relationships, relationships that impacted decisions that we made as a nation and those partner or allied nations. Not all of it got covered, sadly, but the work still happened and it had impact in meeting. The work of vice president is the work of supporting the President's agenda. And sometimes we agreed, sometimes we disagreed. I talk about that candidly in the book. But at the same time I also, some people have asked me, well, why didn't you say something when you were vice president when you.
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B
That was going to be my next question. So thanks for handling that.
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A
Well, I beat you to the punch. And as I write, and I believe, I think for the sake of the integrity of a relationship between a president and vice president, there has to be some confidence in those conversations, including when there are disagreements, because we want that the President of the United States, whoever she may be, I couldn't help myself, We want that the President will have the ability to have candid conversations with at least someone in a safe space to actually be able to air their thoughts and get feedback. But that is the nature of the position.
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B
So I'm just back to those emotions I mentioned earlier. Here's the anger Part that's coming up in me. And so I just have to do this. I just have to ask this part because to me, this is where I get frustrated with former President Biden, who I have nothing but respect for. But this was so consequential of an election and the stakes were so high. And I appreciate, and you started the book with the epigraph as Kendrick Lamar about loyalty. I appreciate that you wanted to have loyalty, I really do. But like his loyalty, that's a two way street. Right. And I feel like it was incumbent upon him to say to you. What did he call you, kid? Kamala? Veep? Whatever he called you, whatever he called you to say to you, you go do what you need to do. If you need to throw me under the bus on a few things, you go do that because we gotta beat this motherfucker. And instead, instead he did the opposite of that. And I don't know, you sense it in the book and hearing from you that you felt trapped and the stakes were too high for that. Why couldn't we have dealt with that during the 107 days?
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A
I think there are many variables that were at play in the outcome of the election. I do want to emphasize a couple of points that I think we should consider when we think about what happened on election day. And one of them includes the fact that one third of the electorate voted for the current president. One third voted for us, and one third did not vote. Two thirds of the electorate did not vote for what's happening right now. And I think that's important to remember. But the work we have to do as the Democratic Party should really emphasize, why did that one third not vote and focus on that in terms of the decision that the President made to stay in the race? I talk about that in the book and my reflections on whether it was grace or recklessness even on my part to not talk him out of staying in the race. Yeah, I do talk about that.
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B
You do.
- [38:36]
A
And we needed more time, Tim. There's no question we needed more time. It was an unprecedented election in so many ways, including. Just think about it this way. We had a president of the United States running for reelection who decided three and a half months before the election not to run. The sitting vice president then steps in running against the former President of the United States who had been running for 10 years with 107 days to go. Also, what should be noted is that it was the closest presidential election in the 21st century. And one of the reasons that I wrote the book is history will write about and talk about those 107 days, which are, after all now part of America's history. And it was very important to me that as history writes about those 107 days, that my voice will be present in the way that story is told.
- [39:49]
B
Yeah, I hear all that. I just, I think that that one third that didn't vote, a lot of them were unhappy with what was happening. Right. And like the ability to be able to get a little distance from that and demonstrate who you were was important. And anyway, you talk about it in the book, but I thought you were limited in being able to do that. And I think that looking back, when I look back on it, a lot of stuff was out of your hands. Like that stuff was in the hands of President Biden and you. And it was like we felt trapped. We felt trapped by this loyalty. I guess.
- [40:23]
A
You know, here I just have to be very candid for the sake of my own well being and sanity. That's not where I'm focused at this point. I'm just not. There's too much happening right now and work that we can write that down for the future.
- [40:38]
B
I get that. Amen. I mean, you wrote the book about the campaign. Right. And it could have, you know, because we had to know what happened. Right. We had to understand. And so it was important. I. Accepting and seeing what happened is an important, you know, acknowledging the truth of what happened is important to go forward and to be successful.
- [40:57]
A
You're right.
- [40:58]
B
I'm asking in that spirit.
- [41:01]
A
Should. Could he and a variety of other people made different decisions? Yes. No question about it. Could it have had an impact on the outcome? Perhaps. But in terms of how I think about how I suggest, in fact, that we should reflect on those 107 days in that campaign. There are additional points that I choose to emphasize, including, for example, something that I'm working on now. Having been the subject of a myriad of attacks that were fueled by mis and disinformation, one of the biggest challenges that we're facing as a democracy and a society right now is mis and disinformation. In fact, there are plenty of people here I know who have neighbors, friends, relatives who voted differently than us in the election. And here's the thing that I would challenge us about, because I've been thinking a lot about this, Tim, which is the assumptions that we are bringing to our thoughts about the opinions of people who voted differently. One of the assumptions being that we are working with the same information. I think we have to really think about that. Are we working with the same information. Now, I purposely say information and not facts because two plus two is four every day of the week. But there is so much mis and disinformation that also has been facilitated by technology and social media. There are many benefits to it. But this is one of the drawbacks. And if we are to think about where we are now in terms of the divisions between the American people, if we are to think about the pain that I know we all experience around the issue of trust, and trust, yes, in our institutions and government, but also increasingly, what pains me is the amount of distrust that the American people have for each other. And I'm not talking about am I, Can I trust you enough that I can keep my door unlocked? I'm talking about can I trust that you are not a threat to my very existence? Right.
- [43:27]
B
Yeah, I wonder then, looking forward and all that, because I'm sorry to be rain cloud right now, guys. I promise I have some fun stuff here before it ends. I see things getting worse now, better kind of on that front with AI And I'm wondering what you think would be a positive vision or agenda item for Democrats speaking about this challenge both of misinformation and AI about how not being against things that are creating jobs or things that could save people and AI could be wonderful in the medical space, but creating rules and regulations that prevent this problem from exacerbating.
- [44:10]
A
In all candor, I don't know if the solutions are going to come from Congress.
- [44:19]
B
Not this Congress.
- [44:19]
A
I fear. Well, no, I just fear that. And I've seen it. I mean, I've worked on these issues just as a general matter. They're very smart and good people who are working hard. But I fear that because of the way that it is constructed, it's just too slow and almost bureaucratic within a legislative body that by the time they actually agree to anything and pass it, it's going to be obsolete. And so there is that piece. Then the question becomes, well, then where are the rules going to come from if not Congress? And then one might say, well, will the industry itself impose standards upon itself? And of course, what do you think the answer is no. So then one must ask, well, then, what to do? Where and how could it possibly be corrected in any way that just puts reasonable guardrails on safety? I say, especially having been a former attorney general, I believe that the power base on this issue is with the people as the consumer and that consumers have an incredible amount of power to place demands on the market and on the business model. But the challenge for anyone in any role of leadership, elected or not, is to ensure that the public and the consumer has sufficient information to know how it works and what you have a right to demand. The place where I see great progress on this happening is with parents around safety standards as it relates to their children. And what we have seen around a movement among parents, anyone parenting a child to say as it relates to TikTok, as it relates to any social media gaming, to put the pressure on the industry to put guardrails there. We should watch how parents are doing this and think about the broader consumer on the various other areas of impact and know that consumers have incredible power. You start a boycott, I'm telling you, people will pay attention. I'm not saying who to boycott. I'm just saying we know that that is an example of what consumers can do.
- [46:48]
B
There's no boycott targets coming to mind right now.
- [46:51]
A
I'm not. I'm just saying.
- [47:00]
B
The Trump Hotel, maybe it's a safe start. Home Depot.
- [47:05]
A
And there is all of that.
- [47:06]
B
Actually, I just muttered Home Depot under my breath. What do you make, what do you make about these masked ICE thugs though? Real quick?
- [47:14]
A
Which one?
- [47:14]
B
The masked ICE thugs and what they're doing.
- [47:18]
A
Listen, I. First of all, the fear that is rampant in the immigrant community is. It's abhorrent. You know, in California, where I live, I mean, the Catholic church has excused parishioners from attending mass in person because of the knowledge that people are so afraid to even go and worship for fear of deportation. Parents who are not sending their children to school, not taking the child to the pediatrician, visit people who are. Who are potentially green card holders or are complying with their responsibility to go to court and check in who are being detained. And you know, look, first of all, it should not have to be said, but I will say it. Unless you are Native American. Or your ancestors were kidnapped and forced into slavery, your people are immigrants.
- [48:53]
B
There you go. There you go. Amen to that. I want to get to Yalls questions here in a second. Before, you know, I was reading the book you talked. There was one moment that came up from the debate which was my favorite night of the campaign. I hate that the end took this from me because I didn't have as much fun as you. I was telling people I was like the only person that had more fun than me tonight was Kamal Harris. Cause I was out there shit talking in the spin room. But anyway, there's one thing that happened in the debate and you almost brought clarity to it in the book, but you wouldn't quite say what exactly it was that was on your mind. You alluded to it. I asked your husband about this on the podcast and we'll see what he said. One moment from the debate. Ever since it happened, I've been dying to ask you about. So I want to play it and we'll get you on the other side. Let's just listen.
- [49:57]
A
This former president, as president, invited them.
- [50:03]
B
What do they think that she was going to call him there? I'm just going to rely on the memes at this point. So there was the Sam Jackson fun from Pulp Fiction. I'm not saying this is what she was trying to say, but there is a funny meme of her. When somebody asked her what her favorite cuss word was, she said it starts with an M and ends with an. It feels like it might have crossed the mind. I just know what I got sent on my various groups. I thought you might have inside info, though. I thought maybe one time you might have known that. Look across the kitchen. What is this? Spouse. I'll grant spousal privilege. Some of these things will just have to remain between us. So he called spousal privilege there at the end.
- [50:53]
A
I love my husband. I love my husband. That's my doggy.
- [51:03]
B
Any additional clarity?
- [51:07]
A
Some things speak for themselves.
- [51:11]
B
Any other words you want to call them before we get to the audience questions?
- [51:14]
A
Oh, there's plenty, but plenty of seeing some things about them before the night ends. And one thing I just really do want to emphasize, it is important for us to have humor. We cannot. We have to have humor. We have to find times to sing and dance and have joy and understand the beauty of life and have hope. And we cannot normalize a thing we are seeing right now. We cannot normalize any of it. Cannot.
- [51:55]
B
Hell, yeah. I've got a couple questions from the audience and we'll just chat about them. Okay. See, we've got Julia K. Little. She says, as young Democrats organizing in Tennessee's 2nd congressional district, the longest held Republican district in the country, we want to inspire hope and engagement among young voters. What strategies do you think Democrats can use to better organize in the south, especially in areas that have been gerrymandered?
- [52:25]
A
Julia?
- [52:26]
B
Julia? Yeah.
- [52:26]
A
Julia, are you here? Where are you?
- [52:29]
B
Waddup girl.
- [52:30]
A
Stand up. Stand up. Let's see you stand up. There you are. All right, let's hear it for Julia. Organizing. Well, first of all, thank you. Listen, let me just say I absolutely believe that the south is going to be part of what gets us through all of this. I really do. I really do. You know, on my book tour, I. I was adamant that I travel through the South. What you all are doing here in Tennessee, what you are doing, Julia, in terms of organizing. Where is Justin? Justin is here. All the Justins are here, Congressman. Right. The Tennessee Three. Where is Gloria?
- [53:21]
B
That's my man.
- [53:22]
A
Where is Justin Jones? Gloria's here. I'm telling you what you all are doing. You know, the last time I came to Tennessee was when the Tennessee three were. They were trying to silence them, remember? And I was Vice President of the United States. I came here on Air Force Two the next day. Because what you are doing in terms of organizing here is a national matter and will have national impact. And so the way that you are doing it is so important because I've seen how you're doing your work. It's about literally reminding people of every age, from young people from high school through to our seniors. We have the Freedom Riders who are here. Do we know that? Right. And in particular right now, finding opportunities to bring people together, to just allow them to talk and that we really listen. Like just looking at the person sitting next to you and asking, how you doing? Like, seriously, how you doing? I'm taking us to church.
- [54:52]
B
Amen.
- [54:52]
A
But that part of the organizing is gonna be very important. Organizing in terms of our Gen Z. I love Gen Z. And I'm telling you, Gen Z, who are now, you know, statistically, Gen Z, are between age 13 and 28. They are a larger population demographically than boomers. Gen Z were born only knowing the climate crisis, went through significant periods of their education during a pandemic, losing very significant parts of socialization and education. Gen Z, if they are in high school, college, or that age, and are in an educational program, are wondering whether what they are learning now will actually lead to a job for any period of time in the future. It is. It is expected that Gen Z will have up to 10 to 12 jobs in their lifetime as compared to so many of us came out of high school, college. The first job we had is where we retired. So also, Julia, I would say focus on our young, younger voters, because if you look at the last elections that happened around the country, there was an incredible turnout from younger people who understand they're not going to be waiting around for the rest of us to figure it out. And there's a good organizing opportunity with that also.
- [56:23]
B
Thank you.
- [56:25]
A
And building on the best traditions of all of the people who have laid the path for us, which is about just, you know, Marching and shouting for justice and equality and opportunity. Yes, thank you.
- [56:40]
B
You mentioned that. The huge Gen Z turnout in these last elections, and we did see that in Virginia and New Jersey too. But obviously a lot of energy around Zoran in New York. Probably going to be a different model than in Tennessee too. But I don't know, I just wonder what you kind of think about his campaign. And he was focused on working class issues, Gaza affordability. What'd you think about Zoran's campaign?
- [57:03]
A
I think, you know what, he energized people and he brought people in and I think that is good for democracy. And I know there are people who are, you know, I mean, somebody asked me today, are you scared of him? I'm like, no, no. Why? We have everyone from Abigail, the two governors, the two women, now New Jersey and Virginia. We have the three elections in Georgia for utilities and power. I have talked to people in local, I started in local government in Mississippi who are turning those seats. They're all Democrats. They're all Democrats representing different ideas and a different approach. And I think all of it is welcome because they are speaking to the people in their communities and where they live to be active and engaged. And I think that's a good thing.
- [58:06]
B
Justin Pearson is pumped out there. That man just can't stay in his seat. You got a Bulwark podcast moderator, so you get one Bulwark podcast question. I'm sorry, we have to do this, guys. Here it is. It's Marita Hines. She asked the most Bulwarky question imaginable. Do you have any thoughts on the efficiency of our government? Would you rebuild what has been cut or use this moment to reinvent the follow up from Doge. Marita? Marita?
- [58:37]
A
Marita, where are you?
- [58:38]
B
I don't know if Marita's in here. This might have been an online question.
- [58:41]
A
Okay. Okay. I am certain that in the midst of all of this destruction, which obviously should not be conflated with disruption because it is destruction that we are witnessing, that there is going to be an incredible amount of debris. I'm certain of it. And let me also, again, in the spirit of truth talk, it may get worse before it gets better. Okay. And when the time comes that we get past this, there is going to be a lot of work to do. And some people talk about rebuild, but I don't think of it that way because there's some stuff that happened even before that wasn't working. And we need to be honest about that. And we cannot afford to have nostalgia about how things were to try and recreate systems that were not effective or efficient. So that includes being clear eyed. For example, things just take too long in our government and we need to have a greater priority around speed. We need to have candid conversations with the people. This gets back to Julia about organizing. How do you feel your government is satisfying and meeting your needs and how would you like it to be different? Part of this moment should reinforce for us the power of the people to make decisions. When we are looking at the debris about reform and transformation and transformative opportunities that we have, I think that while we need to deal with the harm and risks of AI, we should also see the benefits. For example, one of the biggest issues affecting so many people in our country is affordable housing. One of the issues there is supply in addition to the other issue which is the corporate taking over and jacking up. Ren and there are many other points but what builders will tell you is part of the issue is it just takes too long to get permits. Well AI, a lot of permitting is really about did you meet the number? It's not about something subjective. It's literally is it this size, is it this quantity? AI can make those decisions for us in a much faster way. So when we're thinking about how we are going to see this as a moment of in the crisis opportunity to leapfrog over where we are, we've got to be open to doing things differently. And I'm going to tell you I have a lived experience that can tell you this. Status quo. So people think status quo is static, it's just there. Let me tell you something. When you try and change status quo it is quite dynamic and will fight against you every step of the way. So it's going to take us as the people who will be impacted by the work of government to make demands for people in government to have the courage to be clear eyed about what's been working and not and to deal with efficiency and speed and relevance for the people.
- [62:15]
B
I hear some yimby Kamala in there. A little yimby coming up.
- [62:18]
A
Well, yimby, what does that mean?
- [62:21]
B
Means we need to build more shit.
- [62:23]
A
Well we do. But you know, I know this as a devout public servant for my entire adult life that there is an incredible nobility in public service. And I'm going to tell you the people who work in these offices work around the clock doing the noble work of thinking about how they can uplift the condition and well being of the people. But there is also a lot of bureaucracy and we've got to address that and be honest about it, you're going.
- [62:56]
B
To have to take us to church. On the very last question, this is from Ashley. Ashley Isley, I think. Is that right?
- [63:03]
A
Are you here?
- [63:04]
B
Are you here, Ashley? Over there. Okay, somebody.
- [63:10]
A
Oh, there.
- [63:11]
B
Whoever briefed me told me it's pronounced like the Isley brothers. I don't know. Do you guys know. Do you guys know them? There we go. Okay, this is a tough one. Thank you for the question, Ashley. Ashley works for an international humanitarian aid organization that's going through the third round of layoffs in two weeks. She's incredibly lucky to have kept her job while thousands of others have not. But she fears not being able to support her family. She fears the loss of her career, which was her life's calling. And most of all, she fears what will happen to the communities we've served in the humanitarian sector. And so her question for you is both what has to happen in that arena, but also where somebody like her can find some hope right now.
- [63:57]
A
Well, first of all, we all here thank you, Ashley, for the work that you do and have done. Thank you. Because even though I've never met you, I know who you are and I know why you do what you do. You know, America's strength is based on many things, part of our strength. You know, I was just in Toronto and you and I were talking about that, and it was interesting because being there, as much as anything I knew, was actually almost a diplomatic mission to remind the Canadians that we as Americans actually care about the relationship. And one of the things I said there is. It is my lived experience, especially as Vice President, that the relationship between nations, one of the greatest foundations of those relationships, I believe, is the relationship between the peoples of those nations, not just whoever happens to hold power at the moment. And a lot of our work also in that regard, is about understanding not only our military power, but our so called soft power, which is the power that we demonstrate through diplomatic work, including humanitarian work. The work that we do that understands the measure of the strength of a leader is not just based on who you beat down, it is based on who you lift up. And your work, Ashley, is so important to that end. And while we have an administration right now that does not appreciate or understand that there is going to come a day where there are still so many who believe in us as Americans, even though they are feeling the myriad of emotions you described about what they are saying, come out of the White House and we have to stand strong as the American people on our commitment to our Principles and our values and our relationships to people around the world. So don't give up. Don't give up. And right now, the work that you and so many of us can do includes people ask me, Julia, about what they can do to be active. And yes, it's about organizing around elections and campaigns. It's also about, for example, working with nonprofits right now, like humanitarian organizations that are doing such good work and so many of them are so strapped, and you can't imagine the power that we have as individuals to call them up or to go and knock on a door and say, hey, I'm here to help. What can I help you with in any regard, you know, whether it be about immigration or whether it be about parents who are in need or homelessness or what we are doing in terms of international nonprofit organizations that are American nonprofits that are doing work from an international perspective, there's so much good work happening right now and so many folks in need. And we have the power. We have the power. This is our country.
- [67:23]
B
Hell yeah.
- [67:23]
A
This is our country.
- [67:25]
B
Hell yeah.
- [67:26]
A
And we have the power. And we will take our power. We're not let anyone taking our power from us. That's not what we're going to do. It is our country. We will not allow our spirit to be defeated by any election, any individual, any circumstance. We are strong. We love our country. We care about community, and we love the South. We love the South.
- [68:00]
B
Thank you so much, everybody. She didn't just fall out of a coconut tree. It's the former vice president. Give her one more round of applause, loudly. Here y'.
- [68:08]
A
All.
- [68:11]
B
Appreciate you so much.
- [68:16]
A
I said I'm deep and I'm fired. Up, up.
- [68:46]
B
Loyalty, loyalty, loyalty. Kung Fu Kenny. Now my resume is real enough for two millenniums. A better way to make a way Stop defending them.
- [68:57]
A
I meditate and moderate all of my wins again.
- [68:59]
B
I'm hanging on the fence again. I'm always on your mind. I put my lyric and my lifeline on the line Ain't no limit when I might shine my grind you rolling with it at the right time right now.
- [69:10]
A
Sorry, sorry, Swear sorry. Leaving now on your pulse like a cdm gas on the like a screaming.
- [69:25]
B
I'm a savage, I'm an, I'm a king. You can tell your he can meet me outside. You can babysit him when I leave him outside. Ain't no weather love like the one I know came down so hard I slow.
- [69:42]
A
I said I'm geek and I'm fired up.
- [69:46]
B
All I want tonight is just get high. Feelings. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.