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- [00:00]
Kara Swisher
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- [01:28]
Tim Miller
Hello and welcome to the Bohler Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show. A fellow podcaster, usually just a little bit ahead of me in the charts. Not that I'm monitoring every day.
- [01:38]
Kara Swisher
Are you? I never.
- [01:40]
Tim Miller
She's co host of Pivot. She's host of on with Kara Swisher. It's Kara Swisher. How you doing?
- [01:45]
Kara Swisher
Hi. How you doing? How's it going? Thank you, by the way, for being a guest host on Pivot during Scot Free August.
- [01:51]
Tim Miller
It was my honor. I had a blast. I had a blast doing it. I hope I get invited back next August. I also was invited to ask a question to Scott Jennings, which. Which created, like, a little mini feud. Oh, my God.
- [02:02]
Kara Swisher
What the hell?
- [02:02]
Tim Miller
It created a feud. He got very upset.
- [02:05]
Kara Swisher
He got very. I was like. It's just. It's a decent question. Although it was a little obnoxious.
- [02:09]
Tim Miller
It was a little obnoxious. It was a little cheeky.
- [02:11]
Kara Swisher
But speaking of, if he can't handle.
- [02:15]
Tim Miller
Obnoxious and cheeky, who can?
- [02:16]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, exactly. Cheeky is not how I describe him. It's smirky.
- [02:21]
Tim Miller
Smirky, yeah. I'm a little cheeky.
- [02:22]
Kara Swisher
He's smirky. Cheeky. And that should be a podcast you should do with Scott Jennings.
- [02:27]
Tim Miller
I don't think so.
- [02:28]
Kara Swisher
Cheeky and smirky.
- [02:29]
Tim Miller
He brought it up on some Rand MAGA podcast a couple days later. How annoyed he was.
- [02:34]
Kara Swisher
I know. How silly. How silly.
- [02:36]
Tim Miller
Anyway, I have a take here I'm going to offer to you that's related to why you're here. I was like, I want to do a 2025 recap pod that focuses on like, we're so obsessed with TDS on this show and politics that's happening with Trump. But I kind of think if we look back five, ten years from now, like the most meaningful thing that will have happen this year is something related to the tech oligarchy emerging.
- [02:57]
Kara Swisher
Absolutely. That's how it started.
- [03:00]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And so I just had a little list here and the inauguration and all those guys being there. The valleys, like embrace of mag at some level you can listen to. On how big of a level. Musk's rise and then break up with Trump. The crypto corruption, the LLM boom. Those are kind of things I had. And what would you kind of have that list or otherwise would you say is like going to be the thing that has the most staying power?
- [03:24]
Kara Swisher
I think this, these chips deals with China are really problematic and Chinese efforts in AI and what will happen in the next year. I think Trump initially, and actually quite correctly in his first term was quite wary of China. And remember he said TikTok will never be so old. And then he changed his mind because one of his big donors was his tech. People said, just a second, we own a lot of this thing. And I just think he was on the right track in terms of China. And he's been sort of captured by people who are like, if we don't give him the stuff, they'll build it themselves. And ridiculous logic as far as I'm concerned.
- [03:59]
Tim Miller
But it's strange. I wonder if he's got business deals there. The whole thing is really, it's been really eye raising, whether it's the college campuses. You know, you would think that he would be more of a. Like that would go to the America first thing. You think he'd do the xenophobic stuff, the Wu flu, the Chinese flu, the stuff he did last time, that would seem to make more sense.
- [04:18]
Kara Swisher
One of the things also speaking of universities, the cuts to universities, I think it sort of quieted down But I was just visiting a number of universities, including around vaccines, around advanced technology. And this is setting back a generation of research and important innovation. And tech guys always act like they invented the moon and they just didn't. It was invented on universities, campuses, much of this stuff. And so I think that to me is sort of an act. Traffic accident. Well down the road. But so many of these researchers and these different innovators were like, at the academic level I'm talking about were like, think I'll be moving to Canada or France, who are offering enormous stipends for people to move there. So that to me is one of these slow moving accidents of the Trump administration we're going to pay for.
- [05:05]
Tim Miller
Did Illinois get any credit, University of Illinois, for Marc Andreessen's work there when he was in the computer science department? No, it's just all him. It was all in the brain.
- [05:13]
Kara Swisher
No, it was not all him by any stretch. So anyway, so I think those are two things I think about a lot. And the damage he's done to universities and science in general and science and technologies are so interrelated and I think it's not as exciting, but. And then, you know, the anti immigration thing, when in fact Elon's an immigrant. Sundar Pichai, all these people standing there are all immigrants. Right. Came from another country and thrived and added to value to the American economy. So, you know, Sergey Brin is an, is an immigrant.
- [05:46]
Tim Miller
Yeah, those are good. I should have added those to my list. You're right about the universities and the cutting of funding. I feel like it's something I bring up like once a week and I'm always like, I should mention that more. It's hard to, you know, and it's just because there is no, like a cute thing happening anymore. Right?
- [06:00]
Kara Swisher
No, but when you talk to these researchers, they're so crestfallen and you know, the money is a real thing, like these kind of things. And all for what? You know, for what?
- [06:09]
Tim Miller
Like nothing. We didn't even cut the debt or anything.
- [06:11]
Kara Swisher
Right, Exactly. I mean, I get the idea of being angry at the students for being mean, but I just, I just. The cost here is so massive in order to get rid of dei, which was directionally correct, even if it was rolled out sometimes excessively.
- [06:26]
Tim Miller
What do you think about the staying power of this little marriage between MAGA folks and tech CEOs? Is it a marriage of convenience that just goes away as soon as Trump goes away? Or is there something about a pivot to the right that is inherent in what they're doing.
- [06:43]
Kara Swisher
No, it's not a pivot to the right. It's a pivot to give me everything and leave me alone. It's a pivot where they always were. A lot of them, you know, except for Peter Thiel, who's been consistent, I will say, has been since college.
- [06:57]
Tim Miller
His appetite for authoritarianism seems to have gotten a little bit greater, but there's a little bit there.
- [07:02]
Kara Swisher
Always, always go back and read some of his books or his early things. You know, it's all in that genre. He was moving towards it and developing his theories, I guess. You know, in his seasteading stuff, it's all about leave me the fuck alone. Right. I think it's a version of leaving. And so when I was dealing with them, like Andreessen or any of them, I didn't ever know their politics. Like, they never discussed it. They were always gossiping about each other, which is what you do in Washington. I mean, you guys must have field date with Susie Wiles, my old boss. Yeah. Well, I think she knows exactly what she's doing, including from a social media perspective, but maybe not. Maybe she's just chatty. So chatty, Yeah.
- [07:42]
Tim Miller
I will say you had one insight. I'm sorry we're gonna get derailed a little bit, but this is how it happens. I felt a little inappropriate saying it, but it just. It felt like it needed to be said. And we're in the podcast, and then I saw on Blue sky you said the same thing, which is that there's a sense that she has a little bit of a daddy issue with Trump, that there is a Pat Summerall, Donald Trump daddy issue. Oh, I know. It just feels a little crude to say daddy issues about somebody in that interview. I don't know. I mean, she's a grandmother, so saying a grandmother has daddy issues. I don't know, something that's a little cringey.
- [08:13]
Kara Swisher
Well, she brought it up. She's like, I'm imprinting on him. Like, I did my daddy. Like, I'm sorry. And obviously, presumably unresolved. It's very difficult to be a child of an alcoholic, and apparently he was quite a severe one. And. And then you imprint on a similar person. It's just so classic. It's like classic kind of thing. And so I only brought it up because she brought it up. And, you know, I feel once she brings it up, it's fair game. You know, as I said, it's very difficult to be a child of an alcohol, of a severe alcoholic.
- [08:40]
Tim Miller
So, anyway, back to your people. So the injuries, you didn't really know their politics before, is what you're saying.
- [08:44]
Kara Swisher
I didn't, I didn't. And you know, you know, every now and then they, like, contrarianism was one of their favorite, like, whatever. It had to be the opposite. And that's how they did. Well, from a technological, like, you don't think I should do the feed? I shall, says Mark Zuckerberg, and I am now a billionaire. Even mistakes, they. They laud them. You know, they never say anything's a failure. It's always just a pivot. And so that's their nature. I, I think they would go along with whoever gave them what they wanted. And speaking of daddy issues, I think quite a few of them have those. Like, Elon Musk is obviously, he is a daddy issue, like, kind of thing. So let's be fair from a gender point of view. His daddy never stops talking, by the way. Now he's such a terrible person. But if the Democrats offered them similar things, which Obama did, if you remember, they couldn't wait to be at Obama's table. Right. I think this guy is just, let's just pay me and then I'll do what you want. And it's probably cleaner for them. It's not as good for them from an innovation point of view. An oligarchy never is.
- [09:44]
Tim Miller
So I asked Cuban about this. I asked your friend Jason Calanis about this when he was on about, like, what was the. What was the driving. What's the thing that drove these guys into Trump's arms? And part of it is what you just laid out, which was he's letting them do what they want. Part of it was kind of a backlash to Covid and woke. The other thing that both of them say and you hear a lot is that, like, Biden didn't call me. My feelings were hurt. Elon. Yeah, Elon wasn't invited to the thing.
- [10:07]
Kara Swisher
Yes, that's what I said.
- [10:08]
Tim Miller
And it's just like, is that really, you know.
- [10:11]
Kara Swisher
Yes. A lot of it is. Their parents didn't hug them enough. I don't know what else to say. A lot. You know, Mark Andreessen has a famously weird and isolated relationship with his family. He left them and doesn't speak to them. He told me this. You know, he's talked about it before. Elon and his parents are. I mean, his mother follows him around, obviously, to get in on the good parties, I guess.
- [10:32]
Tim Miller
Don't blame her.
- [10:33]
Kara Swisher
Come on, come on.
- [10:35]
Tim Miller
She might as well.
- [10:36]
Kara Swisher
She loves a party. She'd show up to the opening of a door.
- [10:40]
Tim Miller
Hey, let me tell you, if my daughter gets famous, I'm going to show up to the opening of a door. Okay, so I got a lot of judgments of the Musk family, but that's not one of them.
- [10:48]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, okay. Just funny. So getting back, you know, he has those issues. I think, you know, everybody has a different experience but. And then some of them, interestingly, a couple people recently, they have trans kids and one guy who I'm not going to say who it is, a more minor person, but pretty significant, suddenly started to go right wingy and I, and I was shocked. This was one of the kinder people I knew and you know all about trans. And I'm like what? And I wrote some. And I'm like what in the hell happened here? And they said, oh, trans child. This was, you know, that seemed obviously to set Elon off who was just a heinous character when it comes to his daughter.
- [11:28]
Tim Miller
So if we grant that, here's the thing I'm struggling with and it does put the Democrats into a little bit of a pickle going forward. Cuz these guys are extremely powerful, you know, huge influence in the platforms. We'll talk a little bit about the mergers and stuff in a second. But on the politics of this, there's gonna be a big pull and a righteous pull I think for the Democrats to clap back against them and say okay, we're going to reign you guys in and hold you accountable and come after you. But that is only going to kind of drive them further into the authoritarian arms. Right.
- [12:00]
Kara Swisher
I don't think it's just the Democrats look at like Marsha Blackburn, Ron DeSantis, there's a lot of people who, especially around safety of kids and chatbots and the ability to regulate AI, I don't think it's a part. I think people are, are in a very eat the rich moment for a lot more people than you think. And so I think being ridiculous is not the thing to do. It's just don't be obsequious and corrupt is a very different thing. Listening to them and having them involved, that's perfectly reasonable. It's just not the, they don't really.
- [12:33]
Tim Miller
Seem like the type that they're going to be happy to have. A new administration comes in and says hey, we're going to have you in for a roundtable and by the way, we've got some new plans for regulations and taxation and other know we want to, we're going to wag our Finger at you a little bit. They don't seem like the types that are like that.
- [12:52]
Kara Swisher
They might not. There's some. There's some Democrat. I mean, I think Newsom is not a finger wagger at them by any stretch. I don't think Shapiro is. I'm trying to think. I don't think Pritzker would be. Biden was just uniquely ignorant about tech, I think. You know, I think that's the issue. I would suspect Harris would and will be if given whether she runs or not, more moderate than you think. She was always hanging with those guys. I don't think she was. I think she didn't like the more extreme versions of them. Right. But in general, she was very technical, I guess.
- [13:24]
Tim Miller
I agree with you. I think that is. There's gonna be some of them. That's their instinct. But, man, I think that the backlash from the Democratic base against these big tech oligarchs is gonna be extremely intense. And, like, if they thought it was bad or they're mad about Cambridge Analytica or whatever, I think it's gonna be like something they're not really even ready for. And I was interviewing the guy that wrote the Palantir book a week or two ago, and I was like, I don't. I feel like a Democrat might just come in and cancel all their contracts next time.
- [13:51]
Kara Swisher
Oh, no, I don't. That's not. That's not. You know, I'm sorry. Maybe they will. No, it seems that's a stupid thing to do, I think. I think the problems of their own making and their behaviors. You know, whether it's Jeff Bezos renting Venice to have his wedding or, you know, his kids are dying at usaid. You know, it's just like the visuals are really quite Gilded age, right. And some of the. None of those people got killed like. Or mobbed or anything else. You know, it's not Robespierre here. It's just not. That's not the way it is. Or Elon, you know, with the chainsaw, or accusing federal workers of being Hitler, worse than Hitler and Stalin, but, you know, he didn't win where he was by himself. That's the issue is they don't. Trump is a uniquely important figure. Right. As divisive as he is, he brings certain people together. And so in that way, like when he was trying to get that judge overturned in Wisconsin or Minnesota, whichever one of those, he lost. And he lost big, you know, with the cheese head. Where's the cheese heads? Wisconsin.
- [14:50]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Wisconsin, yeah.
- [14:51]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. He lost.
- [14:52]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [14:52]
Kara Swisher
25 million bucks. That was it. He can't. You can't make. I don't think it's a good time to be ostentatiously rich.
- [14:59]
Tim Miller
No, they've got. There's certainly some. It's. I guess when you just think about how upset they all were about, you know, some pretty modest requests from the Biden administration, like in the grand scheme of things, compared to Europe, compared to what you could imagine that they might do, and frankly compared to Trump's threats on the tariffs and the damage that could have done to the business and they not sucked to them. If you just look at how they got so butthurt and how much it sort of radicalized them towards the right. I just, I don't know. I think that like the next round.
- [15:35]
Kara Swisher
I don't think they have any staying power to the right. I don't think they. I think. You think mistake. I think there are genuinely base people.
- [15:42]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [15:43]
Kara Swisher
These are not those people. These are what can I get for myself and who can I sidle up to? And they will side whoever I think the issue is. I think their, their ability just to walk into the White House will probably be changed. Right. Or they'll include more people in the discussion, which they hate, of course. But it's not gonna be a dinner of all oligarchs ess or you give a statue and you don't get a tariff. That was Tim Cook. They'll just include more people. I'm sort of like, you should have me to the White House to talk about AI. Like, why not? Wouldn't you want to hear my thoughts? And they're not what you might think they are, necessarily. And so I think the smart Democrat would embrace the good parts and pull back on the grift would be my guess.
- [16:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah. I don't know.
- [16:29]
Kara Swisher
You can't get rid of SpaceX right now. We don't have alternatives. What are they going to. We're not doing space.
- [16:34]
Tim Miller
Could nationalize it. They could try to nationalize it.
- [16:37]
Kara Swisher
They won't do that.
- [16:37]
Tim Miller
There's a lot of stuff we never thought would have happened in 2015. I lived through the right wing radicalization and there is some left wing radicalization and some madness.
- [16:46]
Kara Swisher
Not that they don't have the power. I think it's overstated. I think it's usually a group of people that gets good and mad on blue sky, but doesn't actually do anything. I mean, one of the things I was with a Trump person and they said a lot of people there are asking for pardons now. Because everyone's prepping for the next. Right. You can feel it. And he goes, I asked for a pardon. And I said, what did you do? Like, not guilty in any way. And he goes, well, just in case. I'm like Democrats, like I said, you're living in this fever swamp of retribution and you think they're going to come after someone who's actually not guilty. Like, doubt it. Like doubt it. There's so many guilty people that no shortage of guilty. Why waste your time on the not guilty anyway? I just don't.
- [17:29]
Tim Miller
I want to just. Just kind of like putting this in a little bit of a long lens perspective. Looking back, I wonder what the prevailing view is. I feel like of my peers who are tech consumers and some of them have worked at tech companies and stuff that aren't really in the tech mix, they would look back and say 10 years ago they would have thought that Silicon Valley was a net plus for our society and that now they look back and say essentially all of these big companies, with the exception of maybe Amazon, have been a net negative for society. And to me, I think that informs a lot of people's thoughts about AI. People that would have been more positive about it are now a little more. Because they've just lived through this experience where the social, Social media stuff they're positive about. And it ended up being a disaster.
- [18:11]
Kara Swisher
Because, Tim, there was no regulation that would have maybe mitigated.
- [18:14]
Tim Miller
So that's what I'm getting.
- [18:15]
Kara Swisher
It might have mitigated some of the things, like if there had been liability, you know, right now AI companies are being sued because of chatbots with parents whose kids committed suicide or copyright. Publishers are now not like, oh, please, can we get on your platform? They're like, fuck you, give me the money if you're going to take my shit. Like, there's a very different attitude. And Most of these AI companies are not protected under Section 230 by any stretch, so they can be sued. So that's the first step is liability, Right. Second step is reasonable regulations. The way an airline would be regulated around privacy, around safety, around all manner of things. And then the big nut, of course, is taxation, right? Like, that's, that's one of the things is the immense wealth. I think people don't, like, I think they aren't going, wow, gee whiz, what a great thing Jeff did in Venice. They're like, ugh, gross. Ew. What's happening with your face? Why are you wearing that tight shirt? Like, I don't.
- [19:13]
Tim Miller
What is happening with everyone's face.
- [19:15]
Kara Swisher
I don't know. I don't do that stuff. Ask Scott Galloway when he comes on. I will just he peels himself.
- [19:23]
Tim Miller
All right. I guess I can't judge yet. We'll see what I think about that in 15 years.
- [19:28]
Kara Swisher
It's grotesque what's happening. I don't think that it's fine if people want to do little things to their face. A lot of it is so. So it's like a costume, right?
- [19:34]
Tim Miller
The uncanny Valley stuff is weird. Like you look like a non human.
- [19:39]
Kara Swisher
Yes, exactly.
- [19:39]
Tim Miller
Peter Thiel doesn't really look like a human anymore.
- [19:41]
Kara Swisher
I don't know. I agree with. I think he doesn't look well, actually, is what I keep thinking. Like, is he ill? Zofluza, Baloxavir, Marboxyl is just one dose, but there's more than one way to.
- [19:53]
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- [19:55]
Kara Swisher
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- [20:04]
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- [21:06]
Tim Miller
Want to do the AI stuff, which you alluded to. I agree with you on the lessons around regulation. Do they agree? Like, do the AI? Are the AI execs ready to be regulated?
- [21:16]
Kara Swisher
It depends on what moment. I think the only thing they understand is brute force.
- [21:21]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [21:22]
Kara Swisher
And so these lawsuits. Yes, they're very concerned about these lawsuits. You saw action right away, oh, we're gonna do this Nobody under this age is gonna do it. They should have done that in the first place because it's the right thing to do. But neither did the chemical companies stop pouring waste into the river until they were made to do so. Or you've seen every Aaron Brockovich movie, whatever. These companies are gonna behave this way until they're made not to. And so they do pay attention. You've noticed they've signed a bunch of copyright deals or settled a lot of them did Perplexity. I think Anthropic chatgpt did a deal with Disney and then, and then Disney went after Gemini. So I think they, they're more willing to understand that there's going to be eventually, especially around kids, these safety issues that everybody is worried about. And when you see the prevalence of isolated young men and women who self, girls and women who are, whose self esteem is off and then there's the job issue on top of that. Like what's the plan, Stan? Is the kind of thing that you're gonna want from your regulators.
- [22:27]
Tim Miller
What'd you think about the ChatGPT Disney deal? I don't understand. Do we wanna see Ariel from the little mermaid doing TikTok dances, being in weird positions? I don't think so.
- [22:37]
Kara Swisher
I don't. Maybe you don't. Well, they're not gonna be able to do that. Like one of the reasons Disney did this, I talked to a bunch of their executives. Look, it's a very short term deal and I think it's a lookie loo. It's a looky loo. Like let's see what happens, how people use it and how ChatGPT responds when Ariel's dating, I don't know, someone else from another Disney like the Beast or something like that.
- [22:59]
Tim Miller
Uncomfortable.
- [22:59]
Kara Swisher
You can get weirder than that. But I think that's the issue is like they're going to look into it. I think one of the things, and I think Bob Iger does understand this as he was there at the beginning, the first one is they didn't engage quickly enough with using it and figuring out how it affects their business. And so in this case it's the biggest and there's some sort of investment. So they get a little bet there's in that regard and then they get to see how it works. And then if it doesn't work, it's just a year and then they figure out legal means, I guess, which is another way to go at it. But some people are saying the New York Times is suing and others are making deals vox Media made a deal not with my stuff, but with their stuff.
- [23:36]
Tim Miller
You sort of teased us a little bit a second ago where you're like, bring me in to talk about AI. You might be surprised by my opinion. That piqued my interest. I just want to hear your cook on it.
- [23:45]
Kara Swisher
There's AI boomers and then there's doomers, and then what Reid Hoffman calls, and I think appropriate is zoomers. It's like, this is like, I've just spent a lot of time on this documentary I'm doing about healthcare. And there's lots of things happening in healthcare, GLP1s, but there's all kinds of really interesting things happening and some basic stuff that is occurring. But one of the areas of great promise is AI combined with healthcare in terms of drug discovery, diagnosis, cancer research. And, you know, you couldn't do any of this without AI, right? And so even, even car accidents with, you know, AVs are going to have to have enormous amounts of AI.
- [24:25]
Tim Miller
What do you mean by car accidents?
- [24:27]
Kara Swisher
Oh, humans get in car accidents. AVs eventually don't. Like, if AVS doesn't do one car accident, humans do hundreds. Right, got it. So there's life saving there. So you see all this amazing stuff. Especially like I was in Korea and I was wearing an exo, which is for people who can't walk or don't walk well, like the elderly, they're going to be wearing these things that are going to like an electric bike, are going to walk for them.
- [24:50]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [24:50]
Kara Swisher
And they're very cool when you put them on. And the difference with these robotics, with these. No, you don't. Actually, these robotics version was showing me is the AI is the difference. Before it was mechanical and it would move and it didn't know. The AI now learns and knows.
- [25:07]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [25:07]
Kara Swisher
And so it's a very different. They can do so much more around robotics with AI and, and in these particular cases, what's interesting, I'll tell you, which was a real shock. So I was walking up hills with them and they have a hill in the office. And he stopped it. He said, just stop. And he turned it off and he said, try to walk. My brain had already started working with the AI in that my legs wouldn't move for five seconds. I couldn't move my legs because my brain had already acclimated to the robotics. And they're very lightweight. They feel like they're not like what you think of. They're quite lightweight. And so just, you can see all kinds of cool things. So I would want to lean into that innovation around like individual industries. Like what's the. What's the insurance company that's going to get this right and fairly and just really experiment in lots of ways and not just give all the gimmes to the big guys. It's expensive. That's the problem is it's expensive.
- [26:04]
Tim Miller
It's interesting. I feel like I find myself more on the doomer side and I think it's just because I feel like on the things that I know the best, I'm the least optimistic about AI, if you understand, which is basically news and consumption of information already right now politics. Before we have sophisticated AI, a huge percentage of our society does not know what's real. I get people sending me things all the time that they can't tell what's real and what's fake.
- [26:32]
Kara Swisher
And it will get better and better.
- [26:33]
Tim Miller
I imagine a 2032 election. How will anybody know what is actually real?
- [26:38]
Kara Swisher
Well, yes, I think I'm more. More concerned with AI and advertising in that Facebook and Google will dominate it. They will use AI to really make it so they will put all media out of business. They mostly have killed it, but it's still sort of dragging behind. They will kill it. With the way AI is going to.
- [26:57]
Tim Miller
Kill, like what other everything you're not going to.
- [26:59]
Kara Swisher
If you don't have these capabilities, you're not gonna be able to sell advertising. Right. They're gonna use AI in, in terms of targeting ads. They'll just. They control 70%, they're gonna control 99.9%. So that's my concern.
- [27:12]
Tim Miller
What about some of the new AI startups that could. You could do advertising through that, through whatever.
- [27:16]
Kara Swisher
Yes, but again it will coalesce to the biggest. These are markets, so markets are markets. So that's one of the concerns. The other is I do think actually younger people are a little more sophisticated around this stuff than you think.
- [27:28]
Tim Miller
I'm not sure that's true really. I mean I'm open to that idea.
- [27:33]
Kara Swisher
I do.
- [27:33]
Tim Miller
I thought that initially, but I'm not.
- [27:35]
Kara Swisher
Unless certain are 20, I would say 30 to 50. They should get off their fucking phones. Like that's the issue is right in there. And then of course the elderly who watch Fox News, but that's just as effective by the way, let's be clear. It doesn't have to come through AI to be propaganda.
- [27:52]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it could get worse.
- [27:53]
Kara Swisher
Yes, absolutely. And I think that's the issue is how so what I interviewed the guy who's a company called Runway which is doing a lot of Back end Hollywood stuff right now and move like stuff that they're going to replace. And it's really, you gotta. Speaking of an industry that's gonna get the shit kicked out of it in certain parts again, by the way, it was one of the things he was suggesting, I think he was correct, is you don't label the AI slop, you label the real stuff. So there's a labeling system for real. So you know what, you know, like, like it's like almost like organic. Like this is an organic cucumber, not whatever with the chemicals all over it. And so at some point the AI slop will be. It already is.
- [28:34]
Tim Miller
I saw SA pitching this idea that like in the future the president will have some kind of stamp that they put on what they put out so that everyone knows that it's real. I was like, I see some potential flaws with that.
- [28:49]
Kara Swisher
Well, except that you can fake a stamp of course, but there will be ways to authenticate stamp bullshit. They could, but the information coming from real sources will be less and less and more. AI slop will overwhelm everything. And so that's the question.
- [29:06]
Tim Miller
Although I think that's the mass. Like this is what I just like the percentage. Like we already have this huge divide and right now it's partisan. It doesn't all. Maybe it won't always be. We could re, you know, the coalitions could realign, but right now it's pretty partisan. But there's this huge divide between like people that read news, read articles about news, read books about information. And that's like 18% of society. And then, you know, then there's kind of a middle ground of people that do some. And then there's a huge like plurality of people that get all their news via short form video already.
- [29:38]
Kara Swisher
Where did they get their news?
- [29:38]
Tim Miller
I feel like that's going to be even worse.
- [29:40]
Kara Swisher
Where did they. They had no news before.
- [29:42]
Tim Miller
No local news. They had not much. They had the nightly news or the local 5pm weather, you know, crime and weather on the night.
- [29:50]
Kara Swisher
I don't think that was particularly, you.
- [29:51]
Tim Miller
Know, I mean none of this was.
- [29:53]
Kara Swisher
That was all. It could happen to you.
- [29:55]
Tim Miller
It's worse.
- [29:55]
Kara Swisher
Killer bees. It could happen to you. You know, heat stroke, it could happen to that. I have a friend who wrote those.
- [30:00]
Tim Miller
Sure. I mean the Today show wasn't exactly the most nutritious stuff ever, but people were getting real information mixed in with the sauce.
- [30:08]
Kara Swisher
I think they weren't getting any. I think what we've gone is from a news desert to a news Flood. And a flood is typically more devastating in weird ways because the flood ruins everything, right? And desert certain people can survive in, but floods are really devastating. And I think that's the issue. And it's something I talked about. Mark Zuckerberg. I was like, what? This anti Semitic stuff you're letting on this platform downstream, guess what's going to happen. Guess what? People already are anti Semitic to start with. This is a tale as old as time, but when you go downstream, it's gonna be even more weaponized. And he got offended when I said, they're weaponizing information. They're weaponizing and arming the bad people. And again, the thing I'm scared of is not AI but the bad people.
- [30:50]
Tim Miller
Yeah, bad people. The scammers. Like, this was one thing also when I was. I think this was the Altman Tucker interview that I was watching where Altman's.
- [30:57]
Kara Swisher
Like, oh, he accused him of murder.
- [30:58]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah, that was weird. But Tucker's saying, I'm worried about scams.
- [31:01]
Kara Swisher
Oh, that was Pete.
- [31:03]
Tim Miller
And Altman is like, well, yeah, families are going to have a code word so that if, you know, Grandma Eunice gets a phone call from a scammer saying that you're dying and she's got to spend $1,000, she'll ask what the code word is. And I'm like, yeah, this might work for the Altman family from Ledoux. But, like, I mean, you're telling me that you're creating a supercomputer that has advanced, that is going to be smarter than all of us. And you're also telling me that the average person is going to be able to decode when they're being scammed by the supercomputer or not. It feels like we've got some flaws.
- [31:36]
Kara Swisher
I would argue that old scams work pretty well on old people anyway. Like, you don't have to do much to get my mom to give you her credit card number. Please don't call. I took away her credit card.
- [31:45]
Tim Miller
Fair.
- [31:47]
Kara Swisher
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- [33:03]
Tim Miller
I want to talk a little bit of the merger talk. I think this might be an area where we agree and are contra to the popular opinion on social media, which is the Mourner Brothers merger talk. We're pre taping this so a lot of stuff might happen but between now and when we.
- [33:17]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, we did today. There was a lot that happened today.
- [33:19]
Tim Miller
Yeah. So I guess just at the meta level without getting into kind of of whatever like the latest deal talk, like what, what's your sense of the consolidation debate and what we're seeing in media.
- [33:31]
Kara Swisher
Consolidation at a higher level there. I'm sorry people. There's going to be consolidation. These companies, when Trump was going after the AT&T Comcast deal, I was like they need to do it. They're not big enough. And everyone's like they're big. I'm like, not enough. Not for Apple and the rest of them because they're going to want to own this stuff and so nobody's big enough. There's a lot of really short companies like very like myself short or height challenge companies and you have like if Paramount doesn't get this, oh, it's going to be like a, like a yacht with a hole in it for the young Nepo baby, David Ellison, he's too small. It's just, there's not, it's. They're not going to be able to do it. They have a dying network. They're going to be in world of hurt. But they're rich. So okay, Daddy's not Oracle stock's not doing that great. Right. But daddy's not going to want to like a hobby because his kid wants to do Hollywood. I mean, it's too small. It has to merge. It has to merge. And so the question is Paramount does. Does Paramount has to like, yeah, I mean, except they're rich, so who cares? Like that's not a really good economic argument. Larry Ellison didn't get to be one of the world's richest people by being stupid. Right. So they have to merge. Comcast is not big enough. They've got to get bigger. Have to bulk up Disney for the first time. I'm like, Disney's an acquisition target for someone or has to do a merger like with a, with a. I don't know who. I mean, Apple could buy them, I guess. Amazon, I guess could do it. But that's the kind of thing you're going to see more and more and legislators are going to try their best to stop it on both sides of the aisle. And it's. There's a very good argument to be made that they're too small as it is, unfortunately away from all the political issues around the Ellison.
- [35:12]
Tim Miller
So yeah, I want to talk about the political issues, the Ellison, but just on the antitrust, the merger stuff, because I. Look, there's certain areas of the economy where I'm sympathetic to the kind of antitrust lefty, populist crowd.
- [35:23]
Xofluza Advertiser
Chickens.
- [35:24]
Tim Miller
Yeah. But there's some of those people that, they're like chickens. You know, everything's a nail. You know, they're an antitrust hammer and everything's a nail. Chickens are.
- [35:31]
Kara Swisher
We haven't done any. You know, I would push back on you. When's the last time we did antitrust? Never. Like the Microsoft deal and that was overthrown. So we haven't done antitrust since the AT&T breakup. And I'd argue that was a pretty fucking good idea. That's why you're holding your cell phone right now.
- [35:46]
Tim Miller
My point was that there are certain industries that make sense. This is one where I don't. I get that there are people that have nostalgia and feelings about movie theaters and they're sensitive to the fact that Warner Brothers merging with one of these streamers might mean that it might hurt movie theaters. And I like going to the movies. I took my favorite movies last week. But as a consumer, there's this notion, I think on the populist, so called populist antitrust left, but it's mostly like a bunch of DC nerds that they're like, people don't like, big companies. And I'm like, I think regular people are confused by the amount of streamers they have. Like, for me, I think a lot of people want consolidation. I don't know how to find the basketball game anymore. Like, how do. Like. Like, the Oscars are going to be on YouTube next year. Like, I feel like people want 2029. Yeah, 2029. Sorry. I feel like people are gonna. People want some consolidation.
- [36:35]
Kara Swisher
Well, you know what's really the big. You just mentioned YouTube. YouTube is the issue here. YouTube is television for young people. It is done. It is done. Like, you know, everything else is just a bunch of, like, very antiquated businesses trying to get bulked up to fight that thing. Like, everyone's focused on Netflix. Let me tell you, folks, the Netflix is focused on YouTube because that's their. That's their real ride.
- [36:59]
Tim Miller
That's why Netflix is hiring podcasts. Maybe you're next. Maybe they'll come for you.
- [37:02]
Kara Swisher
I don't. No, I know they're not hiring them. They're. Come onto our platform. We'll give you a pile of money not to. To be on YouTube. That's really it. And I'm waiting for the call, but it doesn't. It's fine. We don't have the dying big business on YouTube, but it's fine. It's actually growing really smartly. But one of the things you have to realize is this is going to happen whether you like it or not, because these industries are struggling, and with AI coming without the technical background that the Amazons and the Apples will be able to bring to bear, it's really going to be hard to see cost efficiencies. I think the issue, as you said, is, like, if they use it to politically influence things. And I think that's been a real mistake by the Ellisons to say, trump's our friend, therefore we should. We're going to have it faster. What a shitty argument. Daddy's friend is the president and I get what I want. It's like, oh, and right now we're not loving the rich. That's like the. I was like, shh, don't say anything about Daddy through the entire time. But it's inevitable.
- [38:03]
Tim Miller
Like, this is the Netflix folks argument. So I am expressing what would be a. You know, probably what their PR flack would say, but it feels right to me, which is what you're saying, which is like, they are. It is not. They don't see it as an antitrust issue because they're competing against TikTok and YouTube.
- [38:18]
Kara Swisher
They are. I am absolutely. They are. YouTube, particularly. But TikTok, Instagram, everything else. And so it's. To me, the court case that just got lost was in was. I think it was Facebook and then Google. They were like the judge quite correctly said, google. There's no such thing as search anymore. There's Amazon search, there's AI search. There's. Things have happened. They were at 90, but that doesn't. 90 doesn't matter anymore.
- [38:44]
Xofluza Advertiser
Right.
- [38:44]
Kara Swisher
Because people are elsewhere. And so there's plenty of competition in certain areas, social media, for example. And so that's the hard part is things are moving so fast, our antitrust laws cannot keep up. Up with it. Where it is a problem, of course, will be the price of streaming, but the price of streaming has to go up because there's just like an AI. They're spending more money than they're taking in. So if they're going to pay for it, folks, someone's got to pay for it somewhere. And that's why those prices are inevitably going to drift upward.
- [39:16]
Tim Miller
I meant to ask you on the. On the AI thing, but while we're doing media and streaming shows, have you watched Pluribus at all?
- [39:22]
Kara Swisher
I love it. I love it. It's one of my favorite shows. It stays with me every week.
- [39:26]
Tim Miller
Why does it stay with you?
- [39:28]
Kara Swisher
You know, I've read a lot of interviews with the creator of Vince Gilligan, and he says it's not about AI, but I've decided it's about AI, And I decided the hive mind is AI and it's trying to please Carol, who's the last person who's like, fuck you. Like, I'm not gonna do it. And so I think it's all about the individuality versus the friendly collective who just wants to make things better, but is also very. I just love it. I think she's a wonder.
- [39:54]
Tim Miller
I mean, whether or not he intended to be about AI. The thing that is.
- [39:57]
Kara Swisher
He didn't. He said he didn't.
- [39:58]
Tim Miller
Yeah. The thing that it has left me with, that I keep thinking about is there are going to be all these ways. Right. Where AI is obviously going to make us smarter. And you just listed whether it be robotics or health, et cetera. But at some level, there's eventually some curve where we get dumber again.
- [40:16]
Kara Swisher
Yes. Yeah.
- [40:17]
Tim Miller
You know, and to me, like, that is my big takeaway from the show. You see all the ways that the hive mind is smarter, but also dumber.
- [40:23]
Kara Swisher
Dumber, yes. I would agree. I think I always say that I'm like without friction, the word that Silicon Valley people use all the time. And if you listen to them long enough, you hear it seamless, frictionless. Let's make it convenient. They do all that stuff and you're like, but friction is good. Friction is good for all in sex. It's good in everything. It's good. Friction creates friction in relationships. And when you get back to chatbots, the chatbots are really solicitous. And so I'm gonna go with straight people here, but generally women don't think their husbands don't pay attention to them. It's a trope, but it's actually true. And so what if you had a synthetic relationship? And I don't call them chatbots. That's a really friendly word. I think they're synthetic relationships. If they're really nice to you and keep you happy and are sexy at you, that's kind of attracted to women. The same thing with men, acquiescent women, right? Like, they like a woman who's not giving them a hard fucking time. And so these bots are very solicitous in that way. And so I just interviewed Sherry Turkle, who's a very long time, studies this for. Has studied this long time from mit, and one of the things she said is it used to be sort of a fringe thing, and now it's really jumped into regular. Like, people have a discussion with the chatbot about how to talk to their husband or wife or partner, and that creates such dumbness.
- [41:41]
Tim Miller
This is what takes me back to doomerism. I was asking when I was talking to Cuban about this, and he's an optimist about it all. And so the take he was given was that eventually, when the novelty of this wears off, the AI slop will be everywhere. Access to these kind of generic Pluribus type chatbots are going to be everywhere. And people will crave something authentic and real. And there'll be kind of like, the pendulum will swing back. Let's just take. And I guess I come back to. Sure, I agree with that. For like 18% of society, I think that there will be some percentage of people who are curious types or had loving parents or whatever, the combination of things, educated, that they will want that. But I worry about the masses. Like, it's hard to stop. Like, the frictionless part is easy, you know?
- [42:30]
Kara Swisher
Well, it's like soma, you know, you think of Huxley like, it's soma, right? It's the thing that keeps everybody kind of just like happy, vaguely happy. But I don't think that I do think, like, I look at movies, two things. Television. Remember when it was really, you're too young, but there was dumb television going, gilligan's Island, Love Boat, all this stupid slop. Now television is like, so fan. Like, you can't. Every time you turn around, there's another spectacular show on and really wonderfully written.
- [42:58]
Tim Miller
But isn't that for the 18%?
- [43:00]
Kara Swisher
No, I think there's tons of great stuff around. Like, look at, like, some, like the two movies. I go with sometimes with movies. The two movies that did really well this year, speaking of 2025, are totally original movies. Weapons and Sinners, two very original voices, artists who created them. It was not the slop that won and people responded to it. So I do think people do. One is sort of a horror kind of movie. So that was a more widespread movie, but so was Sinners. It was about vampires. Right. And so. But it was more. It was more than that. I think originality does peek through. I think when you look at an AI generated actor, they're pleasing on some level. But then you're like, ugh. Like, ugh. Like. I do think friction often has a way of returning to people when they become anesthetized. And this is. This is something that'll make you numb, that's for sure. Numb and dumb. I. I guess Zofluza Baloxavir Marboxyl is just one dose. But there's more than one way to save on your Zofluza prescription. With the Zofluza coupon, eligible patients may pay as little as $35 up to $70 off or pay $50 at select pharmacies. Visit Zofluza.com to learn more. Okay, it's kind of embarrassing how bad I am at budgeting.
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Kara Swisher
Fine.
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Kara Swisher
I can't cook. You know this.
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Xofluza Advertiser
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Kara Swisher
Whoa, wait, wait, wait. That can't be right.
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Kara Swisher
So you mean I don't have to call anyone to cancel?
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Xofluza Advertiser
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Kara Swisher
Okay. Okay.
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- [45:04]
Kara Swisher
All right, Emin, what do I have to do?
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- [45:13]
Tim Miller
You mentioned sex. I have two things under prurient stuff in my notes here. The first one is, how did you find out who RFK was having an affair with? Why are you hearing about him, his love life at all?
- [45:24]
Kara Swisher
I don't know, and I wish I hadn't. I know you did an interview with Olivia.
- [45:29]
Tim Miller
She should have done it with you, I think, is what I. I agree.
- [45:31]
Kara Swisher
I agree it would have been interesting. But that's all right. She can make her choices. It was very depressing, actually. She thought it was Ryan. It was not Ryan. It was just. Wasn't. Just was so fucking random. Someone from tech said, oh, I saw these texts. Rav K was showing them off to some tech people.
- [45:48]
Tim Miller
People.
- [45:49]
Kara Swisher
And they called me because they were like, can you believe this? And they said, it was a reporter from your magazine. I was like, I don't really write for New York magazine, but I mean, obviously Pivot's affiliated with it. And I was like, rfk what? Like, because he's pals with those people, he hangs with those people, it's always.
- [46:05]
Tim Miller
The bragging that it's going to do that.
- [46:07]
Kara Swisher
I know. And she had already been telling people it was getting out. It was getting out, right? There was too many people who started to know. And so I. I was like, what? And then they said, no, I've seen it. And then read me one of those weird poems. And I was like, whoa, really? And said there was pictures, too. And so I was like, oh, dear. And so then I went to work and started figuring it out. I just figured it out, that's all. And it wasn't particularly hard to figure out. I did confirm it with Ryan. I did, because that was one of the many. I had several confirmations. And I asked him to tell New York men, because I was like, one of you has to tell them, not me. The thank, please don't make it me. And I asked him to. I advised that he tell his publication because he couldn't cover things, because ethically, how could he cover RFK when he's sexting with his fiance? I was like, you can't it's such a bad situation. And I was hoping he could convince her to do it, and she wouldn't. And so I only told one person, David Haskell. Cause I didn't even tell the CEO Vox. I let David tell him because it was David's job. And so I said, you need to look into this. I think it's true, but you need to find out because it's a problem for readers. Most of all, it's a problem for ethics. It's every violation. It's just not good. I'm not saying it never has happened before with people, but it's not good.
- [47:33]
Tim Miller
Yeah, no, I understand why folks are upset about it from the journalistic standpoint. I tried to focus when we were talking on the RFK part because I think a. Because he's such a menace.
- [47:43]
Kara Swisher
And also, he's never paid for this. Everyone.
- [47:47]
Tim Miller
Why?
- [47:49]
Kara Swisher
I don't know. Because I guess everyone thinks he's crazy. I think he hasn't paid one bit for his predatory. If you look at old stories about him and women and the predatory. He's a predator. He's murdering people with the vaccine stuff. As far as I'm concerned, Cassidy's just as culpable. So was anyone who knew about him.
- [48:08]
Tim Miller
It.
- [48:08]
Kara Swisher
Right. Who was. Who was. Who knew about this behavior. Like, so I. I probably caddy more so. But I. I don't know why he. I. I feel like it's crazy that people don't care that what he. What his role is, because he's lying about it. He's denying it, which is a lie. So I don't know. I agree. I think he. Of all the people, he's the one that should pay much more of a price, especially given his history when doing stuff like this.
- [48:33]
Tim Miller
I. Okay, I want to get into our predictions for 2026 before I let you go, but I had a friend who was asking what I should ask Kara, and they had a Fuck, Marry, kill suggestion for you. But we're not going to do that because I'm not going to make you f a man. And we're doing no killing. So I've updated it. We're doing Kiss Mary Crippled Tickle because there are four of them. It's the all in podcast.
- [48:55]
Kara Swisher
Not going to Fuck Kiss Mary Crippled Tickle.
- [48:57]
Tim Miller
The four boys on the all in podcast.
- [48:59]
Kara Swisher
Kiss Mar. Kiss Mary.
- [49:02]
Tim Miller
Could you ignore? We can make ignore the third option. Kiss Mary Ignore and Tickle. But no, then we need something a little meaner. We need something a little meaner. Kiss Mary Cripple Ignore. How about we don't. But tickling is fun.
- [49:13]
Kara Swisher
Ignore. I don't. I, I don't. I don't listen to it. I just think they just, they love.
- [49:17]
Tim Miller
To just talk and it's, it's a little concerning that one of them is like the AI and cryptos are, though.
- [49:24]
Kara Swisher
Yes, it is concerning. You think? I mean, I mean, you know, if there's no conflict, no interest. Is the line in Silicon Valley. It's a smaller podcast than mine, so I don't know. Good luck, boys.
- [49:34]
Tim Miller
Same.
- [49:34]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [49:35]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [49:35]
Kara Swisher
So good luck.
- [49:36]
Tim Miller
I'd probably tickle J Cal, though.
- [49:38]
Kara Swisher
I don't know. I go in and out with him. We recently texted, but sometimes we're on the outs for since I met.
- [49:44]
Tim Miller
I probably tickle him. Chamath is the one that bugs me the most.
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Okay.
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Yeah, he'd be the cripple for me.
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- [51:08]
Tim Miller
Predictions for 2026 couple categories. Do you have any stock tips for me When Scott's on? I'm always asking for stock tips.
- [51:13]
Kara Swisher
I don't, I don't, I don't I don't. I don't. I don't. Scott's the expert here.
- [51:17]
Tim Miller
Do you have any small. Do you have any things out there you're liking? How about instead of stock tips, any, like, little.
- [51:21]
Kara Swisher
I am really interested in robotics. I think robotics and AI are really interesting. I would try to find a company that's involved with robotics and AI seems to me to be the real, as Scott says, peanut butter and chocolate. I think that's kind of where it moves into the real world. I really feel that's where I would focus, you know? No, I mean, one of the things that kills me is we spend. We're spending all these money and I'm sorry for farmers after these terrorists, but our tourism industry is much bigger than our farming industry and that gets. No. And that's getting killed through people not coming to this country. So I wouldn't invest in that until Trump sort of gets kneecapped at some point in the midterms, presumably. I do think he's on a downward thing. I've been saying this for a while, so we'll see. He's going to. You know, it doesn't end with a bang. It ends with a whimper. It ends with a whimper for Trump.
- [52:15]
Tim Miller
Does it end with a whimper for the Nepo baby, David Ellison or do even predicts for him in 2026 what's going to happen in that?
- [52:20]
Kara Swisher
I think he has to get this. So the thing, if I were him is say daddy, open the wallet. That's one of the objections Warner has is this money is not guaranteed and who knows if the Saudis would pull out at any moment. Saudis in the other Middle Eastern countries. So if I were him and he could convince daddy to do it. $34 a share cash. He'll get it. The Arbs only want money and that'll be a very difficult thing for the Net Netflix to do. So. So that's. That's really his own because he's totally inexperienced to run this thing and they have no. Every single mogul I talk to has zero respect for his ability to do this. Nice guy, nice guy. But they all are like, like, come on. And Ted Sarandos is a baller, I'll tell you that.
- [53:03]
Tim Miller
Oh yeah, you said he was dumb money in 2022. Is there other dumb money out there right now or is David the dumbest?
- [53:09]
Kara Swisher
Well, I think. Well, look what he's bought. Bought. You know, my podcast makes more money than the one he bought for $150 million. So.
- [53:16]
Tim Miller
Okay.
- [53:16]
Kara Swisher
I just don't I think all the other moguls who were in there went, who can we. Mike? Give it to Mikey? Michael will eat anything.
- [53:25]
Tim Miller
I like that. I thought that. 150. I have to disagree with you on that, Kara. It's got to be our strongest disagreement.
- [53:29]
Kara Swisher
Yes, we love it. Great.
- [53:31]
Tim Miller
I thought he valued that podcast very appropriately. 150 million.
- [53:34]
Kara Swisher
Yes. That's. I think, yes.
- [53:35]
Tim Miller
Maybe a little less. Yeah. Slow.
- [53:37]
Kara Swisher
It should be 300 million.
- [53:38]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I could see a little bit more. Any other predictions for like, the tech politics industry?
- [53:43]
Kara Swisher
I'll get it if he pays more and if not, Netflix. And it'll be a long. What Ted Sarandos has done is frozen the playing field, which is a good thing to do right now. So they also need it too, by the way. They need it. Not as much as Paramount, but he has to pay up if he wants it. But it'll be a disaster. It'll be a disaster.
- [54:01]
Tim Miller
For our non tech listeners, Sarandos is the Netflix CEO. Ted.
- [54:04]
Kara Swisher
Sarah.
- [54:05]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Any other of the predictions about that crowd? The tech politics intersection? Elon Andreessen, any of those guys? Any predictions?
- [54:13]
Kara Swisher
They'll back away from D.C. once Trump. If Trump loses the midterms, they won't have any. And they're going to flee and they'll all of a sudden start to say, well, not us, it wasn't. They're going to try to do the correction, the appropriate correction. I think a lot of people.
- [54:27]
Tim Miller
You think so?
- [54:29]
Kara Swisher
I do. I think they'll be like, Newsom seems interesting. Like if he seems like he's in the front. Right. Or not.
- [54:35]
Tim Miller
JD And a lot of people say that JD Is. They all like JD they do.
- [54:39]
Kara Swisher
But I think, why not stick around.
- [54:41]
Tim Miller
And for him, I think they'll come.
- [54:43]
Kara Swisher
To realize, no, no amount of makeup is going to make this guy pretty. Like, you know, lipstick on a pig kind of thing. And so I find him.
- [54:50]
Tim Miller
Some of these guys are bad judges of what his political party is.
- [54:54]
Kara Swisher
I think he's repugnant. I just, I agree with that.
- [54:56]
Tim Miller
But I don't know. I mean, you know, I mean, like, these guys have made a lot of bad politics bets and they got in on Trump. Like Thiel, to his credit, got it on Trump early. And all these other guys. Yeah.
- [55:07]
Kara Swisher
They just came along for the ride. Here's the thing. The only pl. Only thing that would work for Vance possibly is if he gets to be president for a little while before it. Right. If somehow Trump decides to step down.
- [55:24]
Tim Miller
The hand.
- [55:25]
Kara Swisher
The hand, whatever. If he gets to be president he has a better chance. But he's so manifestly unlikable and kind of an asshole. I think regular people pick up and Trump for all his negatives and he's a terrible, heinous person, but for a lot of people he's entertaining. He was self deprecating and he's charismatic. And J.D. vance, what's the opposite of charisma? He has it.
- [55:49]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [55:49]
Kara Swisher
Negative, whatever it is.
- [55:50]
Tim Miller
Cesaro, charisma.
- [55:51]
Kara Swisher
You don't look at him and say, yeah, that's the guy I wanna have a beer with. I know it sounds. I know that's not the thing in politics anymore, but really want to avoid a beer with him. You're like, he's going to just. He's going to rag on me. He's going to be mean. He said, you know, it was interesting, that Vanity Fair shoot. There was some reporting on what was happening. And the whole time he was like, you're going to make him look uglier than me. Is this where you make me look? Eagle? He's like, shut up, you twit. Like, he's that guy.
- [56:17]
Tim Miller
He's like a charisma vampire. No, he sucks it.
- [56:20]
Kara Swisher
Exactly. You know, it's interesting. I'll give a comparison. I was testing a Volkswagen ID Bug van that Volkswagen has. A little too expensive for most people, but it's a delightful car. They took the VW van and they electrified it and made it adorable. Even more adorable. And as we were driving, everyone waved at us like everyone was like, hi, we love you. Like, and I thought, oh my God, I'm driving the anti cybertruck. Like whoever that is among the Democrats. Yeah, he's the cybertruck.
- [56:49]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I like that analogy.
- [56:51]
Kara Swisher
He's the fucking cyber. Here's one last idea.
- [56:54]
Tim Miller
I.
- [56:54]
Kara Swisher
You have kid, right? How old's your kid?
- [56:56]
Tim Miller
I do, yeah. Second grade.
- [56:57]
Kara Swisher
Therefore, K pop demon hunters. Correct.
- [56:59]
Tim Miller
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Love K Pop.
- [57:01]
Kara Swisher
Are you kidding? Like, it is the talk about the song of the year.
- [57:04]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Golden.
- [57:04]
Kara Swisher
So if I was Gavin Newsom or Kamala Harris, it'll work better for Gavin. You make golden your theme song because up, up, up. We can be different, but yet we can be strong and kick ass and be demons, but also we like each other. And you can, you can have stripes or whatever you want, want. So it's a good message. It's a great, sketchy song that everybody, you feel better after listening to it. And this is the motto. It's the Golden State. They're both from the Golden State. It's a Golden State, right. Say it's time to be golden. No more gold.
- [57:35]
Tim Miller
Signed with golden. No more gold. Be interesting to see either of them have the balls for that. They both are a little bit reticent on that stuff.
- [57:43]
Kara Swisher
I know. But golden, it's time. We're all golden. Golden is lovely. Gold is crass. Like make fun, make a dig at Trump. Enough of gold.
- [57:53]
Tim Miller
No kids music on my little playlist for my child. I like to reject kids music. I force her to listen to grown up music. But I make an exception for K pop Demon Hunters. It's great. Okay, before I lose your final topic.
- [58:03]
Kara Swisher
I don't think you have a choice.
- [58:04]
Tim Miller
I've been unhappy with. We're not gonna say who it is. I think it's kind of obvious who won the power lesbian of 2025 award, and they're not that appealing for me. And so I wanna move. I'm hoping for a new power lesbian in 2023.
- [58:16]
Kara Swisher
Oh, it's got to be Rachel. It's Rachel every year.
- [58:19]
Tim Miller
It's Rachel every year. But you're not recruiting. I kind of figured you'd be out there in the marketplace to be able to tell us who's like, you know, who's on the come up?
- [58:26]
Kara Swisher
Our lesbian.
- [58:27]
Tim Miller
Who would be a lesbian rising through the ranks.
- [58:30]
Kara Swisher
I'm trying to think, you know who I really. This is not a lesbian. It's trans person. Sarah McBride.
- [58:36]
Tim Miller
Sarah McBride. Yeah.
- [58:37]
Kara Swisher
I am so impressed with her. I have to say. She's unbelievable. She's unbelievable. She's smart, she's. She decenters her identity, which I think is critical. Right. She doesn't lose it. She de centers it just enough and says, I'm here for the people of Delaware. Let's stop talking about my being trans. But she's not turning her back on the issue either. And the thing she said to me, which Scott has stolen many times, was we have to embrace imperfect allies. And all the shit she got from all those assholes in Congress about the batmancy mace that lunatic. She still has the dignity. She's the one. She's the power. The power LGBTQ person. That's what I would say.
- [59:20]
Tim Miller
I love that. I'm gonna get her on the pod early next year. I love Sarah McBride. And it's not surprising. Scott Stormaterial. He's a shtick thief. He's got shtick.
- [59:29]
Kara Swisher
Are you kidding? He repeated something I said to him back. He goes, what do you think of this idea? I go, well, it was great when I said it to you. He does that all the time. That's okay. It's a love. It's his love. Language is plagiarism. Yes.
- [59:43]
Tim Miller
Kara Swisher, thank you so much for the time. I hope you had great holidays.
- [59:47]
Kara Swisher
Love the hat. Are you gonna. Are you trying to star in Heated rivalry? Is that what's going on here?
- [59:52]
Tim Miller
If only I don't have the muscles for heated rivalry.
- [59:54]
Kara Swisher
Is that a good show?
- [59:56]
Tim Miller
It is great.
- [59:57]
Kara Swisher
I'm sure Scott is watching it right now.
- [59:58]
Tim Miller
Slop plus. You know what I mean? Slop plus.
- [60:02]
Kara Swisher
Slop plus.
- [60:03]
Tim Miller
Slop plus.
- [60:05]
Kara Swisher
Oh, it's so good. What are you talking about? You know, it's like hunting between. Hunting. Oh, Hunting Wives, season two.
- [60:11]
Tim Miller
I don't know about that.
- [60:12]
Kara Swisher
Oh, stop it. It's so good.
- [60:13]
Tim Miller
It's women.
- [60:14]
Kara Swisher
Oh, my God. It's okay. Let me just. I'm gonna do you a favor right now. Hunting Wives it is. Maga, Christian lesbian action. And guns.
- [60:24]
Tim Miller
All things I hate. I'm a gay man. I don't like guns. Lesbians. I'm not that big on.
- [60:29]
Kara Swisher
It's so good. It's so good. Trust me, it's the best. Megan Ackerman and Brittany Snow or star in it.
- [60:38]
Tim Miller
A key part of my commitment to my listeners is radical candor. And I'm just gonna let you know I'm gonna pass on that. I'm not gonna be watching that.
- [60:43]
Kara Swisher
Just one episode. That's all I ask of you. Are gonna write me and say I was wrong.
- [60:47]
Tim Miller
Deal. One episode. Kara Swisher, thank you so much.
- [60:50]
Kara Swisher
Thank you.
- [60:51]
Tim Miller
Everybody else will see you back here soon.
- [61:10]
Kara Swisher
This time of year, most of us.
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Are checking off our holiday gift lists.
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Kara Swisher
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