Lis Smith: Dems Need to Burn Down the Party Establishment

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast Episode Summary
Title: Lis Smith: Dems Need to Burn Down the Party Establishment
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Liz Smith
Release Date: August 8, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes back Liz Smith, a seasoned Democratic strategist and author of Any Given Tuesday, A Political Love Story. Liz has an impressive background, including serving as a senior communications advisor for Pete Buttigieg's 2020 campaign and consulting for various Democratic up-and-comers. The conversation delves into pressing political issues, Democratic strategies, and the need for authentic leadership within the party.

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Key Discussions

**1. Immigration and ICE Raids

Timestamp: [02:58] – [07:07]

The episode kicks off with a discussion on the Trump administration's intensified immigration crackdown, humorously highlighting a Fox News segment where Dean Cain announces his intention to join ICE:

Tim Miller ([04:12]): "Dean Cain, Superman from 30 years ago, is going to be getting in the back of unmarked vans, covering his face, and nabbing old ladies sitting outside of Home Depot."

Liz responds with a personal anecdote about having a Dean Cain poster as a child, expressing discomfort at his association with ICE's aggressive tactics:

Liz Smith ([04:17]): "When it's too legit to split. That's cravenience."

She criticizes the Trump administration's methods, emphasizing that such tactics undermine trust in law enforcement:

Liz Smith ([06:07]): "Having law enforcement in these masks jump out of unmarked vans and round people up sows fear, and it sows distrust in law enforcement writ large."

**2. Transgender Military Ban

Timestamp: [09:05] – [16:12]

The conversation shifts to a Reuters report about the enforcement of a transgender military ban, specifically the US Air Force denying early retirement to transgender service members:

Liz Smith ([09:47]): "This is a policy that is just born out of cruelty. It breaks the trust that we have with people who say, 'I'm going to serve our country.'"

Liz argues that Democrats should actively oppose such policies, stressing the importance of compassion and maintaining trust with service members:

Liz Smith ([12:37]): "We need to show compassion to the kids who are caught in the middle of a firestorm they never asked to be a part of."

Tim adds that expressing genuine anger over such injustices can enhance a candidate's credibility:

Tim Miller ([14:30]): "I'm fucking pissed at this outrage. They are kicking somebody out of the military who served for 18 years. It's fundamentally wrong. ... I'm fucking pissed."

Liz agrees, emphasizing the need for authentic emotion in political discourse:

Liz Smith ([15:27]): "I am pissed. We need to live our own lives and give adults the freedom to make their own choices."

**3. Redistricting and Gerrymandering

Timestamp: [16:12] – [20:59]

The duo tackles the contentious issue of redistricting, particularly focusing on Texas and California:

Liz Smith ([18:08]): "Gerrymandering is one of a true evil in politics. It makes politics worse."

She acknowledges the challenges Democrats face in combating Republican-led redistricting efforts but advocates for fighting back where possible:

Liz Smith ([20:04]): "If Republicans are gonna do that, then we should fight back and do what Newsom is trying to do in California."

Tim expresses concern over the feasibility of such efforts, questioning whether California can effectively counteract Republican strategies:

Tim Miller ([20:47]): "Do we know how it ends in California? I worry a little bit that you get to a place where Texas and Florida fuck it through."

**4. Promoting Diverse Democratic Candidates

Timestamp: [24:02] – [35:17]

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the need for diverse and authentic Democratic candidates in red states. Liz highlights James Talarico as a promising candidate who balances faith and progressive values:

Liz Smith ([24:50]): "James Talarico's videos... so refreshing the way he talks about it. He has a cross cutting, cross partisan appeal."

She advocates for heterodoxy within the party, urging Democrats to support candidates who may not align with every party stance but can win in their respective states:

Liz Smith ([30:24]): "We need to encourage heterodoxy in the Democratic Party... we need to give people some space."

Liz recounts her experience working with Earl Ray Tomlin, a pro-life Democrat, illustrating the importance of supporting candidates based on broader values rather than single-issue alignments:

Liz Smith ([31:41]): "I would rather take a Democrat who can win in a state like South Dakota... because they're going to be a hell of a lot better than the Republicans on everything else."

**5. Combating Scam PACs and Fake Fundraisers

Timestamp: [47:10] – [48:36]

Towards the end, Tim brings up the issue of fraudulent Political Action Committees (PACs) like "End Citizens United," which fundraise misleadingly for Democratic causes:

Liz Smith ([47:10]): "If someone gives $100, only $1.60 of that would actually go to a candidate... We need to directly call them out and tell people what to do."

She advises Democrats to educate donors to contribute directly to legitimate candidates rather than falling for dubious fundraising schemes:

Liz Smith ([48:00]): "Don't give to these groups. These groups are scam PACs... give money directly to candidates."

**6. Rapid-Fire Questions and Personal Anecdotes

Timestamp: [43:29] – [50:17]

In a lighter segment, Tim asks Liz rapid-fire questions about figures like Steve Bannon and Jeffrey Epstein. Liz firmly distances herself from Bannon and expresses frustration over Epstein's death, emphasizing the need for transparency:

Liz Smith ([44:11]): "That's why it's a hard pass for me. ... I think it's a little bit of a performance artist here."

Liz Smith ([45:35]): "I do think it's important that we get to see the files and have full transparency on who all of his clients were."

The conversation briefly touches on parenting, with both acknowledging the challenges and joys of raising children:

Liz Smith ([49:41]): "My almost two-year-old can boss me into doing anything."

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Conclusions and Insights

Throughout the episode, Liz Smith and Tim Miller emphasize the necessity for Democrats to:

1. Adopt Authenticity and Compassion: Candidates should genuinely express their emotions and connect with voters on a human level, especially on sensitive issues like transgender military service and immigration.

2. Encourage Diverse and Heterodox Candidates: To win in red states, the Democratic Party must support candidates who may not align with every party stance but resonate with local voters' values and concerns.

3. Combat Internal Corruption and Establishment Control: The party needs to "burn down the establishment" by promoting new voices and distancing itself from flawed leadership that hinders electoral success.

4. Educate and Protect Donors: Vigilance against scam PACs is crucial. Democrats should prioritize direct contributions to candidates and actively inform supporters about fraudulent fundraising practices.

5. Engage Relentlessly on Key Issues: Avoiding engagement by dismissing voter concerns as distractions is detrimental. Instead, addressing issues head-on with clear, compassionate language can strengthen voter trust and support.

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Notable Quotes

• Liz Smith ([06:07]): "Having law enforcement in these masks jump out of unmarked vans and round people up sows fear, and it sows distrust in law enforcement writ large."

• Tim Miller ([14:30]): "I'm fucking pissed at this outrage. ... It's fundamentally wrong."

• Liz Smith ([30:24]): "We need to encourage heterodoxy in the Democratic Party... we need to give people some space."

• Liz Smith ([47:10]): "If someone gives $100, only $1.60 of that would actually go to a candidate... We need to directly call them out and tell people what to do."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast provides a candid and insightful exploration of the current challenges and strategies for the Democratic Party. Liz Smith advocates for a more authentic, diverse, and resilient party structure capable of navigating complex political landscapes and countering aggressive Republican maneuvers. The discussions underscore the importance of compassionate leadership, strategic candidate support, and voter education in strengthening the Democratic cause.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Mmm. Oh.

[Liz Smith]

Whatcha eating?

[Unknown]

The new banana split cookie from AM pm. All freshly baked with real butter with banana, chocolate and strawberry flavors.

[Liz Smith]

Wow, that sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?

[Unknown]

I'm sorry, but no. But you can't split the banana split.

[Tim Miller]

Not even a little.

[Unknown]

Not even a crumb.

[Liz Smith]

What if.

[Unknown]

No, please. Mine. When it's too legit to split. That's cravenience. Get a 3 pack for 99 cents with our app ampm. Too much good stuff. Plus tax where applicable. Prices and participation may vary. Terms and conditions apply.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, y'. All. I just had the unbelievable privilege of talking to Andre Hernandez Romero, the makeup artist and hairdresser that was let out finally from the El Salvador prison Hell, after we kidnapped him and sent him there for no reason. And we talked. He was at his home in Venezuela. It was really moving and I had the opportunity to write about it this morning in Morning Shots. If you don't get the Bullock morning newsletter, you should be getting that because Bill Kristol's doing gems in there every day. You can go to thebullrick.com to sign up and you can also watch on YouTube with subtitles. When we did the interview, we had a translator who's kind of paraphrasing and so we were able to communicate and talk. And like I said, it was really moving, but it doesn't really work for an audio podcast. I'd wanted to put it on the end of the show, but the translation issues make it hard to do without subtitles. So please go watch it. His bravery, his grace, his forbearance, it's just, it's like unbelievable. The idea that this guy gets out of this hell and is not filled with rage and anger like you would expect. Instead, he was joyful and thanking God and telling us that we should have empathy for Trump and the people that did this. It's just truly, he's remarkable. So anyway, check that out. You can take a look at my newsletter on this topic this morning. And up next, we're going to get into some politics with my old friend Liz Smith. So stick around for that. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I am so happy to welcome back a Democratic strategist, author of the book Any Given Tuesday, A Political Love Story. She was senior communications advisor for Pete Buttigieg in 2020. She was my foil in the 2012 presidential campaign, and she now is consulting for a wide array of Democratic up and comers. It's Liz. Sm. What's up, girl?

[Liz Smith]

What's up. Tim, good to see you again.

[Tim Miller]

It's good to see you. We got. We got a lot to talk about. You're helping a lot of good candidates. I'm going to get to some tangible advice for listeners who want to know how to help campaigns and what they shouldn't do, because there's this big story about scummy fundraising behavior among scam packs on the left. So we'll stay for that at the end. If you get bored of me and Liz, but you want that advice, you can scroll to the end. But we got to do news first.

[Liz Smith]

Tangible advice is my middle name, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's right. Slander and tangible advice, those are your two main areas that you excel in. But we gotta do the news first. And I guess this is a news item that we're gonna start with. A lot of things are happening in the immigration space in the open. I talked about the interview I did with Andre after he got out of Sakat. And the Trump administration is looking to round up even more people as part of their mass deportation plan. And they're calling in some new agents. Here is one of them, Fox News, Jesse Waters, talking to Dean Cain. So now I've spoken with some officials over at ice, and I will be sworn in as AN ICE agent ASAP. So they'll have 80,001 recruits for their 10,000 positions. Well, they can't have a better guy than Dean Cain. Are you going to be hopping out of ICE fans and apprehending guys? I will do whatever Director Lyons wants me to do, if that's what it takes. Absolutely. You have to fucking laugh. Dean Cain, Superman from 30 years ago, is going to be getting in the back of unmarked vans, covering his face, and nabbing old ladies sitting outside of Home Depot. I guess that's where we're at.

[Liz Smith]

I felt my first reaction to this was shame.

[Tim Miller]

Personal or for the nation?

[Liz Smith]

Well, a little bit for the nation, but first, personal. And I just need to make a confession. I need to get something off my chest. I. When I was about 9 or 10 years old, I had a Dean Cain poster on the wall of my bedroom.

[Tim Miller]

Was he shirtless, or was he in a Superman?

[Liz Smith]

I think he was in Superman. That was the peak of his career. And he was smoking hot, and he had this sort of nice boy image, had gone to Princeton, and mostly was smoking hot. So I do cringe whenever I see him in the news again. But the second reaction I had is I had just read, too, that people who are now getting hired by ICE get 100,000, thousand dollars signing bonuses. And given that we haven't seen Dean Kane in, like, anything in years, I think he likely took it not just a virtue signal to the right because he needed a little cash.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that could be, though. You think he could do okay, like, on the Villages speaking tour or whatever, but, you know, I don't know. He's probably got a big house, air conditioning. His energy costs are going up. Things don't pay for themselves these days. The poster reveal is interesting because Tyler, my husband, we've had some poster discussions recently because Jude Law. Jude Law was living in New Orleans for a few months, and we were thinking we might bump into him. You know, we had a bunch of friends who'd been bumping into him, small town. And when I was sharing this with his father, my father in law, he revealed to me that Tyler had a Jude Law poster on his wall. And that was maybe one of the first indicators that maybe the sexuality was going a different direction. And I was so excited to tell Jude about that. And so now I'm just d to either meet Dean or Jude so I can share these embarrassing poster stories.

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, mine's just slightly more embarrassing, though.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I think.

[Liz Smith]

Slightly.

[Tim Miller]

Well, just because of the way Dean's aged. Did you have any other posters? Were there any others? Do you remember?

[Liz Smith]

Yeah. Brad Pitt had a starring role for a while. Russell Crowe. Russell Crowe is my ultimate one.

[Tim Miller]

Gladiator. Russell Crowe.

[Liz Smith]

Yes. Oh, yeah. That era could not get enough of him. I mean, I'm still into Russell Crowe. I'm still into him.

[Tim Miller]

I was a sport poster man. Jalen Rose for me. Okay. Broader thoughts on the ICE stuff, the immigration stuff. There was this thing that I was referencing is that they're calling Project Trojan Horse. These guys really love cosplaying. Cops and robbers, cash and Kristi Noem. They're putting on costumes, and they have this thing called Project Trojan Horse. They get a bunch of guys in the back of a U Haul or something, and then they put on their masks, and then they drive up to the Home Depot and then they jump out and they grab the guys who are just there trying to do day labor and. And, you know, it feels kind of un American to me. And I know that we were. After the election, there was a lot of chatter about how Dems handled this stuff that had been kind of a losing issue for them. I don't know. Where are you at both on the kind of principle and politics of this topic right now?

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, it's a losing issue for Democrats, but it does not need to be. I mean, I feel like I've been screaming this from the rooftops forever. And I've talked about it with you on your podcast. You know, I worked on Tom Swasey's special election in New York last cycle, and the top issue was immigration. And he found a way to jujitsu it, go on the offense on it and say, I'm the one who wants reasonable immigration reform. I'll take asylum. Tightening of asylum requirements. You know what? If you want to build a little wall, I'll take a little wall. I'm not thrilled about it, but that's what compromise is about. And his opponent was very much like my way or the highway went with Donald Trump on killing the bipartisan bill. But I saw there that there is a way to talk on the ICE raid. Specifically, there is an angle that I would love to see more Democrats take, which is that the Trump administration says that all of this stuff makes us safer. It does not. Having law enforcement in these masks jump out of unmarked vans and round people up sows fear, and it sows distrust in law enforcement writ large. And if immigrant communities don't trust law enforcement, they're not going to report crimes, they're not going to help solve crimes. So you will thus have more crime. And that is a bad thing. And that's why there are not a ton of issues right now where you'd say law enforcement lines up with Democrats. But on the whole, law enforcement does line up with Democrats on these issues. That having these masked robbers, cowboys, running around with guns in their communities and arresting people makes us less safe. That trying to have police officers serve as federal immigration enforcement officials is bad, takes them off the beat. Also makes it less likely for immigrant communities to work with them. So we should adopt the language of law enforcement on this and say, hey, this is not making us more safe and we should get rid of violent criminals. Don't get me wrong, but this is not what that is.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of touchy issues for the Democrats that are in the news, this Reuters report yesterday, fucking boiling my blood. So the trans military ban has gone into effect. Sometimes it's kind of hard to follow this stuff. You want to keep people updated because they announce it and then it's like, did it really. It's in the courts. Did it really happen? It's in effect now. The Reuters story is this, though. The US Air Force is denying early retirement to all transgender service members, even if they have between over 15 years of service. So that means they're going to get kicked out with no retirement benefits, nothing. No, thank you for your service. Goodbye. Crazy. Let's just get your take on the merits of it, and then we'll talk about how Dems handle the issue.

[Liz Smith]

So I don't think this is a particularly thorny one. This is one issue where, you know, in recent years, we've actually seen attitudes backslide on trans issues. I think in part because of how Democrats have mishandled the issue. But one area where majority of Americans are sort of on the more progressive, liberal side is on trans people serving in the military. Put aside the public opinion, though. This is a policy that is just born out of cruelty. And it, it breaks the trust that we have with people who say, I'm going to go serve our country. It serves literally no purpose to do something like this. And I think that Democrats should call it out, and it's one where we'll be on firm ground. And I think a lot of people understand that if someone volunteers to put their life on the line to serve their country, that we should, if they serve honorably, that they should be able to retire with dignity.

[Tim Miller]

So I think this is where you get into. And you're kind of in the advice business talking to a bunch of different types of Democrats. And obviously some of them have different views on all this. Some of them have different constituencies. But we come out of the last election because of this ad that Trump spent tens of millions of dollars on talking about how Common wanted us to pay for sex changes for trans inmates or whatever it was. And you get then to this moment of, okay, maybe we should just not engage on this. And I know that, I think that you and I both agree on this, that that's wrong. Like, you have to engage on stuff that people care about and talk about. Like, you can say all you want, like, this stuff only affects so few people. And it's like, sure, like, that's an okay thing to say, and maybe you can get away with that in certain races. But, like, broadly speaking, if the public cares about something, you got to be able to talk about it and engage on it. So, like, what is your advice to folks? I mean, if trans military ban is an area that makes sense to engage on, should they be more aggressive about. About it? Like, how do you kind of talk about the issue more broadly and not get into a situation where it become an anchor like it was last time, should you not worry about that? Because the morality, I mean, it's not, it's not the easiest question to answer. What are you saying to candidates?

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, More broadly on this issue, I agree with you. Candidates need to engage. You can't just tell voters this is a distraction, so I'm not going to talk about it. That's like the biggest fu you can do to voters possible. And Democrats and Republicans do it too. But, like, we need to, like, eliminate distraction from our vocabulary because it basically tells voters that their concerns are distractions, not important to us.

[Tim Miller]

Also, I hate that, like, we should talk about kitchen table issues instead. As if people aren't talking about transport stuff at the kitchen table, for example. It's like people are talking about that. I don't know what you mean by. I guess if you mean that we should only talk about pocketbook issues, okay, whatever. That's at least something. But this is something people are talking about.

[Liz Smith]

There are a range of opinions on these things in the Democratic Party. What I would just advise is, no matter where you stand, whether if you're someone who says, no, I don't think trans girls should play in girls sports, or if you're someone who says, yes, I think that they should have the opportunity to maybe leave it to local governing bodies. But what I say is just to take a step back and whatever your position is and speak in the language of compassion and grace. We need to show compassion to oftentimes the kids who are caught in the middle of a firestorm that they never asked to be a part of, when all while they're struggling with difficult questions about their identity. But we also need to show some grace to people who have questions about these issues who maybe aren't quite where we are on these issues. And there are some Democrats and there are some activists who, when someone says, I have questions about trans girls playing in girls sports, just say, well, you're a bigot. There's no room for you in the party. When there are Democrats in our party, like Seth Moulton, I think who said something like that? I don't know that I would have said it the way Seth Moulton did. There are a lot of Democrats who said to him, you're a bigot. There's no room for you in our party. And if you're a voter and you have questions about this, and you know, 80% of Americans are on the opposite side of this from Democrats. And you see Democrats saying to Seth Moulton, who I think is generally voted 100% the the way that trans activists would want them to, then you're going to be like, well, they think I'm a bigot. They think I don't belong in this Party, so why the hell would I vote for them? And so I think a lot of this is about tone and how we approach it versus just saying. And we can't just say that anyone who has questions or anyone who expresses doubts is automatically throwing trans people under the bus.

[Tim Miller]

I would add one thing to what you said and tell me if you disagree with this. I feel like with regular voters also, and also with gay and lesbian voters, like, with lefty activist types, give you credibility as a candidate if you're like, I'm fucking pissed at this outrage. Like, they are kicking somebody out of the military who served for 18 years. Like, it's. I'm not just putting out a statement about it. Like, I'm fucking pissed. And I'm going to rant about it and talk about how they are unpatriotic and it makes them bad and it is wrong. It's fundamentally wrong. That's fundamentally unamerican. And like, by saying that, assuming it's authentic, then when you are talking about other issues that are like, a little bit more complicated, where it's not as cut and dry, where you're expressing nuance, it's a lot harder to say, oh, that person's a bigot. Right? Well, it's like, well, no, you know what I mean? Because they're being real and not, like, being touchy about everything. I don't know. What do you make of that?

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, maybe I didn't come across as pissed as you do when you first asked me the question, but that was my version of pissed. I'm pissed. I think it is unpatriotic. We made a promise to these people. They're serving our country and we should pay our obligations to them. And I think this is only born out of cruelty, sticking people in the eye. We need that relationship of trust between our country and the people who decide to serve it. So I totally believe with you and more generally, I think that we need to say that we need to live our own lives and give adults the freedom to live their own lives and make their own choices and, like, you know, get the hell out of everyone's private lives.

[Tim Miller]

You sound a pissed.

[Liz Smith]

Oh, did I?

[Tim Miller]

You sounded pissed. It wasn't about you. You sounded bad.

[Liz Smith]

You got me a little fired up.

[Tim Miller]

You know, I've got. I've got a flourish. I've got some flourishes with my. With my cussing, but, you know. But you sounded pissed. Other things to be pissed about. What is happening in Texas? I guess the FBI. So the FBI right now is Firing people who. Who they perceive to be mean to Mr. Trump in the past or who have friends who are friends with people who are mean to Mr. Trump. They're doing that. They're firing those people, getting them out, and then they're rededicating their resources now to trying to track down the Texas state representatives that have fled to Illinois, because that's what's going to keep the country safe. The redistricting stuff has gotten really insane. And, you know, we also have today, I guess the Republicans are trying to up the ante with Florida. I think Indiana maybe is the other state looking about trying to potentially redistrict. How do you navigate all this at this point if you're a Democrat? Both the Texas Democrats, but then kind of broader.

[Liz Smith]

Well, I think the Texas Democrats are handling it well. They're showing some fight, that they're not just going to roll over and let this happen. And it's wise for Democrats to do that. It's wise. Let me just preface this. I hate gerrymandering. I think that gerrymandering is one of a true evil in politics. It makes politics worse. It makes it so that, you know, it allows politicians to draw their lines so that they choose their voters rather than voters choosing politicians. It ensures that we have. Gives incentive to have only the most extreme voices in the conversation. And so I am not a pro gerrymandering person. However. However, if Texas Republicans are going to go out and do this and there are opportunities in other states for us to respond in turn, I think we sort of got to do it. And that's really the problem, is that there aren't a lot of states where we're gonna have that option. California, with some work, with some finagling, looks like it could be done before 2026. Unlikely in a place like New York.

[Tim Miller]

Just because the law is the rule. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta do two sessions or whatever.

[Liz Smith]

There's a lot to untangle. Yeah. Again, it doesn't bring me joy to say this, but yes, if Republicans are gonna do that, then we should fight back and do what Newsom is trying to do in California. But we should also understand that there's a reason why they're doing this. They're pretty worried about the midterms. They're pretty worried that they're going to lose the House. And why are they worried? Because they're pushing through stuff like the big beautiful bill that is like a massive handout to rich people paid for by taking away health care from poor people and sick kids. And we should make sure that while we're fighting that redistricting fight, we're actually really talking about the reasons why they're doing this and why they're feeling vulnerable because Trump's tariffs and economic policy starting to hurt the economy. They passed this one beautiful bill. I just don't want it to be Democrats out there talking too much about redistricting and gerrymandering, because most people think gerrymandering is pretty icky or don't even.

[Tim Miller]

Know what it is.

[Liz Smith]

Or don't even know what it is. Right. It's a very insider thing to the people who know what it is. I don't think most people are like, hell yeah, let's gerrymander. Except for Sickos on Twitter. But I think it's a necessary thing to do. And Democrats, as we know, the base is really out for blood. They want to see fighting. There is an Axios story recently that had members of Congress saying that when they'd go back home for meetings, that their constituents would be like, suggesting that they get shot and things like that. That's what they wanted to see. They wanted to see blood drawn for this fight. So Texas Democrats fleeing the state to stop this from happening. Seems like. But we all know how this one's gonna end.

[Tim Miller]

Are you suggesting some false flag attacks Democrats do on themselves? You know, where they start, where they get bloodied, where they, you know, a Jussie Smollett. Are you suggesting a Jussie Smollett type idea?

[Liz Smith]

I am not suggesting this, no. And I think that the voters were actually suggesting real life, that you go out and you get shot to show how much you care. But it is a good sign Democrats are showing fight. And you know, what Newsom is doing in California shows that Republicans can't do these things without consequences.

[Tim Miller]

Is the California thing really possible, do you think? And you just said we kind of know how this ends in Texas. Do we know how it ends in California? I worry a little bit that you get to a place where Texas and Florida fucking jam it through. But a couple goody two shoes in the California legislature or whatever prevent California from doing it. And they really do kind of squeeze out 7, 8, 9 more seats Republicans. Is that a possible outcome?

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, because there are a number of steps that they have to take in California. It's not like a given, but they're trying. And I've heard from people in this state that they feel like it's very possible that they can do it. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

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[Liz Smith]

Were you at a furry convention?

[Tim Miller]

Is Beto a furry?

[Liz Smith]

No. Remember there was that fake News back in 2019. I think it was pushed by the Bernie Bros. That he was like a furry. It became a whole Internet meme thing.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, I missed that one.

[Liz Smith]

Beto is not a furry.

[Tim Miller]

There's so much rude stuff about Beto that was put out back then. People had Beto derangement syndrome in 2020.

[Liz Smith]

I mean, I worked for Pete in 2020. Don't talk to me about anyone else. Derangement syndrome, yes.

[Tim Miller]

Though I don't know. Some of the. Some of the Pete people had better syndrome. You know, I felt like everybody should have been on the same.

[Liz Smith]

I don't think they did.

[Tim Miller]

You don't think so? Okay. Anyway, James Talarika, we'll Talk. We'll rehash 2019 Internet politics another time. What's your vibe been on that guy? I don't know. You know, he does the Rogan. He's doing the Liz Smith strategy, which is now conventional wisdom and Democratic politics. That people should go everywhere was something that you were saying, you know, seven years ago when we were both younger and prettier and the childless. Childless. And you were saying that. And now they're all doing it. They're all like, you know, what we should do is do interviews with more people. Huh. That's interesting. Liz was on that one. So he does Rogan. I have to be candid. I've not watched the full three hours, but what I've watched, he did. He did pretty well. I think he's been doing pretty good. Talking about this redistricting stuff. He's been on our YouTube. What do you make of him? And like. And sort of that movement down there.

[Liz Smith]

So, full disclosure. I myself have done some work for James Tallarico.

[Tim Miller]

Well, you've done work for everybody. Do we have to do full disclosure anymore? Just assume if Liz is talking about a Democratic politician who's good, that she's done work for them.

[Liz Smith]

There are a few exceptions, but, yes, I agree, so. But he first came onto my radar in 2021. And as you know, I've had this thing since working for Pete where I'm just constant. I know that there are more Pete's out there. I know that there's more untapped talent, that it's like not the people you see on the Sunday shows, not the people that you see on cable news, and that we just need to look for them. And someone actually called me in 2021, it was like, consultant and said, you gotta check out this guy, James Talarico. I checked him out. I was like, damn, this guy's the real deal. And continued to follow him. And what's been interesting is he's a state rep in Texas, but has built up a massive TikTok following. And his videos are not like defund the police, like you know, saying the most maximalist lefty stuff. A lot of it is him talking about issues, you know, facing the state of Texas in terms of faith. You know, he's in seminary school right now, educating, training to be a minister. And so he does that. And it's so fresh, it's so refreshing the way he talks about it. And he frames things and values in his faith in a way that has a cross cutting, cross partisan appeal. And that's why Joe Rogan actually reached out to him. Someone showed him one of the videos of Tallarico talking about the Ten Commandments and he was like, holy crap. Like, I want this guy on my show.

[Tim Miller]

Is that true? That's really what happened?

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, yeah, that's really what happened. They sent an email to his campaign.

[Tim Miller]

Inbox, infoamestellerico.com and it's like, hello, would.

[Liz Smith]

You like to be on Joe Rogan's show? Can you imagine?

[Tim Miller]

This is why I read the info at the Bulwark emails, because every once in a while you have a good one. So just keep them short out there though, listeners. It isn't good if I open it and it's a short novella. I don't usually read those, but I.

[Liz Smith]

Think he and like Pete has a very like sort of hypnotic, calming way of talking. I mentioned he weaves in his faith and values a lot and he understands the power of telling a story right. A lot of Democrats, when they're talking about issues, it's policies, it's bullet points, it's 10 point plans, it's this James Talarico paints a story where you have a good guy, a bad guy, universal values are represented in it. And his method of communicating is one that I think, and I'm going to have more Democrats study. But it's also very different from what you hear from a lot of people. You know, it's a very different model from what you hear from like a Beto in Texas from a Julian Castro, from a Jasmine Crockett. We've sunk a lot of money into Texas and trying to win statewide. It hasn't been working. And maybe we need to go into a completely different direction and put up someone like James Tallarico who can go and speak to different communities in a different language and really go everywhere. Even though he is, you know, a Democrat. He reads a little bit, you know, he reads a little bit different. And I think we should just in general try to find more interesting, different candidates.

[Tim Miller]

That a sentence was just standing there. You're like, he reads. And I was like, I don't know if that's that differentiating. He reads. Is he different, though? So I guess this is my question. I don't know. And this is what I was asking, and Beto and I were talking about this last night. I don't think I'm betraying any confidences because I say this all the time, which is just like, I want. I think the Democrats need to figure out a way to compete in Texas. I don't. It's not crazy. Beto wasn't that far away from winning in 2018. They backed backslid a little bit last time, but the whole country backslid. And if there's going to be a time where you could get a surprise win, it kind of feels like the first midterm of Trump's second presidency would be the time, you know, for, like, just by the nature of how midterms work and, and backsliding and who knows what's happening in the economy. But I look at him and I'm like, is he just a lib that is also a pastor? And that's fine. And just full disclosure, everybody knows. It's like, I love that and I love the fact that he is so real and him and passionate. And there's something to be said for that, like, for voters just looking for somebody that they can trust. Like in Texas, do you maybe need somebody that has cultural, like, actual issues, issue differentiation from the party?

[Liz Smith]

Yeah. And, you know, Beto ran a really good campaign in 2018, as you mentioned, and it was one. He went everywhere. He went to small route, red cars, still going everywhere. Yeah. Didn't just campaign in like, you know, Dallas, Houston, typical Democratic areas. And he struggled in. In 2022. Right. Because that was after he'd gone out and said, hell, yeah, we're gonna take your AR15s and whatever other stuff. You know, people took a lot of positions in 2020, let's put it that way. And so I think with Talarico, you know, we'll see, you know, look in more at his positions, all of that.

[Tim Miller]

But I guess taking them aside, like that's not. There are a lot of good people that run in Texas. So like without talking like just as a general matter in red and even broadening out to red states more broadly, I had Dan Osborne, I guess that even he, he's like focusing more on the economic populism. David Jolly is a never Trumper running in Florida. None of these people like are, I don't know, like for example, John Bel Edwards when he won in Louisiana was like, I'm pro life. Like I, we think we should ban abortion at eight weeks. Whenever you think about that position, like he had a tangible issue differentiation for the Democrats on a cultural issue. None of these other people really do. Is that needed, do you think, or not? I mean, I don't, I'm open to hearing both ideas.

[Liz Smith]

I think we should encourage heterodoxy in the Democratic Party and I think we can draw a direct line from when Democrats and Democratic campaigns got super nationalized to now and how we've really just gotten killed in all of these red states. I think back to 2017 when Tom Perez was campaigning for a mayoral candidate in Nebraska and he gets lit up by NARAL and these groups because the mayoral candidate in Nebraska is personally pro life or pro life. And they're saying we're not going to fund you anymore. This is a disgrace to Democratic values. All that. And that was when, after that was when we sort of started to see that then choice groups, gun groups, climate groups are basically saying that the only candidates we're going to support, the only way we're going to support these Democratic organizations is if they support the maximal positions on all of these issues. And that makes it really, really hard to get elected in Louisiana, to get elected in West Virginia, to get elected in South Dakota, to get elected in Texas. And yes. So we need to give people some space. And an example that I use in my book, any Given Tuesday that you.

[Tim Miller]

Mentioned at available now at online retailers everywhere.

[Liz Smith]

Well, it's a really good example. So I talk about how in 2011 I went and I did debate prep and media prep and helped out communications for Earl Ray Tomlin, the governor of West Virginia. He ran, he was endorsed by nra, he was endorsed by Right to Life, he was endorsed by Chamber of Commerce. But when he was elected and he was in office, a 20 week abortion ban came to his desk and he vetoed it because he Said it had, it would have violated the state's constitution. Now a lot of Democrats would have said, you know, you can't support this guy. He's endorsed by the NRA and right to life. But now flash forward, he's term limited. A Republican takes office. What does the Republican do? He signs a born alive bill which basically portrays doctors as murderers. So it's like, okay, there's a difference between a pro life Democrat and a pro life Republican. And like especially on everything else other than abortion, Democrats are gonna be with you. So I would rather take a Democrat who can win in a state like South Dakota, West Virginia, Nebraska, Texas, who might not be with us on climate, who might not be with us on gun control, who might not be with us on abortion, because they're going to be a hell of a lot better than the Republicans on everything else. And like, as Democrats, we need to understand there is no one way to be a Democrat. A Democrat running for mayor of New York City like Zoran Mamdani is going to be very different from independent running in Nebraska like Dan Osborne. And we got to be okay with that.

[Tim Miller]

It needs to be. I don't know if it is going to be.

[Liz Smith]

Needs to be. Oh, what you eating?

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[Liz Smith]

That sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?

[Unknown]

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[Tim Miller]

Not even a little.

[Unknown]

Not even a crumb.

[Liz Smith]

What if.

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[Tim Miller]

All right. We're about to blow people's minds on this front because we've hit my hobby horse.

[Liz Smith]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You know, which is we need some mod pill Dems running for the Senate in these states. You've complained about the maximalist left several times already on the podcast for a half hour in. I want everybody to just, just brace themselves for this. One other thing that you and I agree on is that we want to have candidates that are authentically themselves and show that they care about people.

[Liz Smith]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Even if they don't always disagree with us. I think that's one thing that's really good about both Beto and James Talico. One thing I like about both of them. Another person that maybe fits that bill that you just mentioned, Zoran. And when we were in the green room room, you informed me that you're Zoran Pilled, which I think has got to be quite surprising to some of your trolls online who have called you basically a Republican state. Like a Republican, a crypto Republican, New York moderate, shill. And so explain. Tell us more.

[Liz Smith]

My favorite is when I get crypto or apac. It's like, I have never once in my life interacted with APAC or crypto. It's like, you know, come on, do your research.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I don't know. You have some questionable associations in your past, including this podcast, so I don't know if you should encourage people to do their research about you. You know, you never know what'll turn up.

[Liz Smith]

I'm transparent about it. Like. Like you. I wrote about all this stuff in a book. Like, I'm. I don't shy away from it. I embrace my mistakes and my flaws. But to this. Yeah, I was really torn up about how to vote in that mayoral election. I knew I was not gonna rank Andrew Crump Cuomo. I worked for Andrew Cuomo before I wrote about him in my book. I think that he embodied the worst of American politics, which is just a relentless desire to accumulate power, no matter the toll it took on anyone else. And I found that when I worked for him and that when other people worked out for him, he brought out the worst in people. And what we want, what I want from politicians and our elected leaders are people who bring out the best in us. And so he was out.

[Tim Miller]

You've gone so soft now that you're a mom.

[Liz Smith]

I know. I sort of have.

[Tim Miller]

Crazy. Me too. We're both such softies now. What happened to us, Liz?

[Liz Smith]

Well, because I think I want my son to see positive role models and especially positive male role models in politics. If I'm working in this industry, I don't want him to see me working for people who are toxic bullies and people who are clearly bad role models for him. Okay, Put that aside. But. So I knew that. But then I didn't know who I was gonna vote for other people. And it was a tough field.

[Tim Miller]

Zellner Myre was standing right there, just waiting for you to rank him first. MB Neolib. Shill.

[Liz Smith]

Wait. Well, wait, you didn't let me finish. The New York Times came out with this editorial after saying they weren't gonna weigh in on the race, saying that elections are choices, and you either have to rank Cuomo or rank Zoron, or your vote doesn't count and you can't rank Zoron. You have to rank Andrew Cuomo And I'm like, what the fuck, man? This is a paper that called for his resignation multiple times, called him out on everything. And now you're saying, like, we have to vote for Andrew Cuomo and we have to make this choice. And that day I was like, you know what? I'm gonna take their advice. I am gonna rank Zoran Mamdani. And I ended up. I ranked Zellner first. Cause I thought he ran like a good campaign. He should have gotten more attention. I did Brad Lander second, and then I did Zuron third. Cause I liked the campaign Zuron did. I thought that he was really incredible, lights out. Impressive in these debates. I liked his general style. I think that he was. He is, I think, a much more effective leftist than like an AOC or Bernie Sanders. Because he doesn't do that annoying, scoldy, preachy thing where if you're not with me, you're a tool of the corporations, you're a Republican, you're this. He is more of an inclusive type of socialist, I would say. He has less of that, like, populist anger. And. And I also think some of his policies, like free buses, are intriguing and maybe something that we should test out here in New York. And behind the scenes. I'd heard that he's a thoughtful person. He's willing to engage with people with different ideas. So I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And like, for me, my biggest thing in politics right now is we need new voices. And we need to sort of burn down the establishment. The establishment of the Democratic Party. Of course, that means different things to different people.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Liz Smith]

But the leadership in our party is bad and it's gotten us to this place. And we need to, like, exorcise ourselves of the demons of people like Andrew Cuomo if we are going to be a successful party going forward.

[Tim Miller]

You love New York, though. You love New York. You're a New York Post tabloid reader. You care about it. You've worked for multiple New York City officials. You know, I just. Some people, you move into a place and whatever. A lot of New York transplants, that's not you. Like, you're a New Yorker. So is there any of you that's like, ooh, I'm a little nervous. I don't know. Well, I'm a little nervous about Zo Run.

[Liz Smith]

Yeah. I'm specifically nervous about the public safety piece, because that's my top issue is public safety and disorder. Not going to get into it on this, but had a number of very unfortunate and uncomfortable interactions over the past six months that made me very worried about public safety and order in the city. And I want to make sure that when he goes in that he does deliver on his promise of not believing in defunding the police and understanding that public safety is really important. That's by far the thing that worries me the most.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, the thing that worries me the most about that is it might be somewhat out of his hands. And you saw this in San Francisco where like the cops kind of felt like the politicians didn't have their back so they kind of stopped doing as much. I kind of understand the police perspective. I have a couple cop friends in the Bay that like, I understood their perspective. I also, you know, you need to do your job. You know, you've seen that turn around San Francisco. One of your other clients, Daniel Lurie, is doing a great job as mayor of San Francisco. But so like that would be the thing that worried me as I actually even a little bit more than his policies. Right. That like that there's a trust. Like he's got to focus on trust, you know.

[Liz Smith]

Exactly. And your relationship with NYPD can like make or break your mayoralty. And we saw that early on with Bill de Blasio when he showed up to a cop's funeral and. And all the cops like turned their backs on him and it was a horrible visual, but it continued throughout. So I am hoping he's doing a lot of those meetings behind the scenes. Cuz you're right, it's not just about the policies. It's that. And we did see in a number of big cities policing slowdowns because police officers didn't feel like the people in power had their back. Also, you know, they felt like the prosecutors, you know, if you arrest someone, Chesa Boudin in San Francisco wasn't gonna prosecute them. So what's the point? What's the point?

[Tim Miller]

All right. We kind of covered this just really quick. You know, you have clients you're giving this advice to for Dems. We're still in. We're in August recess. It feels like we're still in August recess because they left early because they're scared about Epstein. So they have the longest August recess ever. What, like, what issues should be Dems be talking about right now? Like, are you like it? Let's roll with this Epstein cover up. Should be all big, beautiful Bill stuff. Economy sucks. Like, any thoughts on how the Dems should be leveraging the recession?

[Liz Smith]

Well, I think the three of them sort of interrelate, but really I Mean, I would really go out and gin up energy and attention around the big beautiful bill. That's the one that I think people will most likely vote on. And, you know, we're seeing these town halls. Like there's that town hall and I think it was in Nebraska.

[Tim Miller]

It was in Nebraska. Yeah. We played a clip from it.

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, like 750 people showed up and just like annihilated this dude. And so Democrats should go out there, you know, make clear what's happening there. They should organize to make sure that when there are these town halls that people are going to them and showing up and voicing their discontent. I also like what the DCCC is doing. They're doing this, like people's town halls, where in these red districts where the Republican members of Congress aren't doing town halls, they're sending Democrats in to do it. And it basically is like, one, it'll get coverage because there's sort of a freak show element to it, you know, that doesn't happen every day. But two, it's like basically calling these guys. What's the word I could use? It's like calling them out.

[Tim Miller]

Pussies. We can say that again, Liz. We can say it. We can say the R and P word again. The rich bankers told us Trump won and we're now free.

[Liz Smith]

Well, you can, but I'm gonna say for being weaklings. And we know that masculinity is very important for all these guys. So I think it's really important. And we're gonna have to keep doing this because you and I know the consequences of this. And sometimes there is this idea among people who follow the news more. You certainly follow it more than, but I follow it more than 90% of people do. And there's this idea that because we understand these things that everyone else does, but if you look at the polling, like, I don't know, a lot of voters aren't that tuned in. And so we've gotta be pretty relentless about it. And it is as clean an argument as we can get. And it undermines Donald Trump's core strength, right, that he was a different type of Republican. He's not a Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan Republican. He's someone who wants to protect entitlements and help the regular man. And this is, this is a handout, massive tax cut for rich people that will be paid for by ripping away health care for poor people and sick kids. Simple. But we got to hammer that every day of the week.

[Tim Miller]

We're running out of time. Two rapid fire questions There was a Daily Mail story. Daily Mail has well placed sources that Steve Bannon is plotting a 2028 run. Bannon's reply, was he supporting Trump in 2028? What do you think about Bannon or Trump? 2028.

[Liz Smith]

Pass.

[Tim Miller]

Pass, pass. You got nothing hard for. No. I mean, what is happening with these people? This is our life. This is the world. This is our real life. Liz, you know, you're an earnest young striver in the 90s who cared about American democracy and loved it and watched the War Room with James Carville. And now we've got a racist podcast host and a guy trying to end the democracy.

[Liz Smith]

And that's why it's a hard pass for me. I want no part of any of it. I think all of the rest is unsaid. What do you want me to do? Go through all the greatest hits that you've gone through 3,000 times on this podcast about each of those men?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure.

[Liz Smith]

I do think Steve Bannon's a little bit of a performance artist here. And I don't know how tongue in cheek the 2028 thing is, but I would actually be a little bit concerned that it's not totally tongue in cheek as we saw after, you know, the 2020 election. But I don't know, I would maybe be into a Trump Bannon primary.

[Tim Miller]

There we go. There was a take. It took you a minute to come around to take a ban advance primary. That would be something that'd be very good for this podcast, I'll tell you. Not bad for the country, good for the podcast. So I hope it doesn't happen, because I would rather things good happen to the country. But if we're stuck with it, that's true. Okay, really quick. Also, did. Did Jeffrey Epstein kill himself, dude, do you think?

[Liz Smith]

I do, but I don't know 100%. I do tend to think he did. He had plenty of reasons to. But more important than whether he killed himself or not is that we get to see the files under and we get full transparency on who all of his clients were, what Donald Trump's involvement was. And I really think it's important that these people who for years called for releasing these files and being fully transparent that they actually deliver on that promise.

[Tim Miller]

I gotta say, one of my favorite moments of the podcast recently is when I asked Chris Murphy that question, and he did like the length of the pause. You've seen the video of Ross Douthat asking Peter Thiel if he thinks humanity should exist. And Peter Thiel pauses for like 20 seconds. Chris Murphy did that on that. He was like. And he just was like, I don't know. I'm like, I love that. I love that that's where we're at right now. Because I don't know. It's the right answer, I think. Who knows? Who the fuck knows? As teased at the beginning. The final topic, this group. I don't know anything about these people. So it's not personal group called Mothership. I guess there's a group of packs. If you're a listener of this, my guess is you're probably getting texts and emails from some of these packs. The one, there's a bunch of them. One of the names that jumped out at me that I see all the time is End Citizens United. I'm like, what is that? Who is that? And it says group. They're texting resistance people asking them to chip in eight bucks to save democracy. Since 2018, according to this article, they had raised $678 million. 678 million. 11 million went to candidates, campaigns or national party committees. The rest went to just the infrastructure of whatever funding all these fake PACs. Act Blue is starting to crack down on this, which is good. This is bad. This sucks. People want to feel like they're doing something. I get. You know what I mean? And so they're kind of preying on people who want to feel like they're doing something, which is the right instinct. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that topic or as we said, the topic. What is an actual useful thing for folks to do?

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, dude, it's fucked up. It's fucked up. And if you dig into the numbers, if someone gives $100, only $1.60 of that would actually go to a candidate. And I think that that party organs and leaders in the party need to just straight up call this out and say, do not give to these groups. These groups are scam PACs and they're preying on you. And the second thing, and I've seen something floating around on this, is that there's a proposal to have ActBlue have sort of regulations for participating.

[Tim Miller]

It feels like this is happening, I think. Seems like this is going to happen.

[Liz Smith]

Yeah. And where you basically deplatform. But more importantly than that, and I know when I work for Pete, we saw a lot of some people doing this and we just would directly call them out when they do that. But we need to more like using.

[Tim Miller]

His name funding on his name for fake banking.

[Liz Smith]

And we'd say don't give to this, this is that. I know on Kamala Harris's campaign they did that as well. I think on Fetterman's campaign they did that as well. But we need to directly call them out and we should just generally tell people what I tell my friends and like earmuffs for like the fundraisers for my various clients. Don't give money over to earmuffs, Anthony. And two is give money directly to candidates. If it's a group you've never heard of, don't give money to them. I think from the top down, we need to have more aggressive communications because that story was pretty sickening.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Another is Democrat House candidates. Like, if you've heard of somebody, okay, whatever you should. If you really like somebody, you can give money, that's fine. But if you've heard of them and you're not a sicko, like, if they're a famous person, they're already doing well. Right. Like the people, the candidates that need money are the frontline House candidates who are in some of these districts that are gonna make the difference. So we'll raise, you know, have a couple of them on the pod so folks know. But that's. Yeah, those lists are easy to find.

[Liz Smith]

Right. Because most people don't know how to find like the cook political rankings.

[Tim Miller]

That's a good place to go, though.

[Liz Smith]

It's great. I love it. It's like my porn. But we need to educate people and put that information out for people. Otherwise it's going to be hard and their money's just going to go to whoever's running against Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Tim Miller]

I'll take it on as a project, but you can literally just Google Cook political competitive races and look at the list. They got it right there. It's google.com, really easy to do. Okay, that's it. Unless you have a parent corner. Do you have anything you want to say? Any exciting news from the parenting front? Any life left lessons? Any interesting things that have happened? You want to share? It's okay.

[Liz Smith]

If not that, I worked in this business for a long time, you know, I don't get bossed around easily, but my God, my almost two year old can boss me into doing anything.

[Tim Miller]

I bet. Is he saying anything yet?

[Liz Smith]

Oh, lots of.

[Tim Miller]

What's our recent words.

[Liz Smith]

Yesterday we had ladder. You know, he talked about fire trucks, but it's a lot of mama sit there, mama go night night there. Ice cream cookie too salty. Cookie too spicy.

[Tim Miller]

I love you getting bossed around. This is great.

[Liz Smith]

Oh my God, he's a little tyrant. And I feel like I'm getting a taste of my own medicine. But indeed, that's the latest.

[Tim Miller]

Well deserved. All right, that's Liz Smith. She'll be back again soon. Appreciate you all for listening. Have a wonderful August weekend. I hope you can enjoy some sunshine, maybe a little pool, maybe a little glass of rose. And we'll see you back here Monday with Bill Kristol. Peace. Bye, Liz.

[Liz Smith]

Bye, Tim. Me.

[Tim Miller]

Reaching maximum speed, Sam the Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.