The Bulwark Podcast: Episode Summary Title: Mark Hertling: Contrary to American Values
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Release Date: June 11, 2025

1. Introduction and Context

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, a former commanding general of the U.S. Army in Europe. The primary focus revolves around recent political developments, particularly President Donald Trump's speech at Fort Bragg, and its implications for the military and American values.

2. Trump's Fort Bragg Speech and Military Reaction

Tim Miller begins by expressing his shock over President Trump's recent speech at Fort Bragg, highlighting concerns about Trump's increasing divisive policies. Instead of focusing on Trump's rhetoric, Miller opts to discuss the audience's reaction to the speech.

Notable Quote:

Tim Miller [00:55]: "...I was pretty shook by President Trump's speech yesterday at Fort Bragg... I'm more interested in the reaction than in Trump's words."

The transcript snippet of Trump's speech showcases his derogatory remarks:

Donald Trump [01:39]: "Ladies and gentlemen, look at them. Look at them all. What I have to put up with. Fake news... In Los Angeles, the Governor of California, the mayor of Los Angeles, they're incompetent."

Mark Hertling expresses his dismay and embarrassment over the event:

Mark Hertling [02:20]: "...the military, especially the army, draws from all elements of the population... It was very disappointing."

Hertling emphasizes the military's commitment to apolitical conduct, referencing constitutional mandates that prohibit soldiers from engaging in partisan activities while in uniform.

Notable Quote:

Mark Hertling [04:59]: "...soldiers have to be reminded of that."

3. Politicization of the Military and Constitutional Concerns

The conversation delves into the risks of politicizing the military, especially when leaders use military platforms for political agendas. Hertling underscores the importance of maintaining the military's nonpartisan stance to preserve democratic values.

Notable Quote:

Mark Hertling [07:14]: "...respect for all people. And so when you're jeering the press or you're jeering Governor Newsom... that's just not appropriate in the military culture."

Miller expresses personal empathy, relating to having previously been part of mob-like environments, but contrasts that with the unique responsibilities and restrictions inherent to military service.

4. Renaming Military Installations After Confederate Generals

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Trump's announcement to rename several military bases after Confederate generals. Both hosts analyze the historical and symbolic implications of this move.

Trump's Announcement Clip:

Donald Trump [09:33]: "We are also going to be restoring the names to Fort Pickett, Fort Hood, Fort Gordon, Fort Rucker, Fort Polk, Fort A.P. Hill, and Fort Robert E. Lee."

Hertling's Analysis:

Mark Hertling [09:58]: "Every one of those that he named were Confederate generals... they were not all that good on the battlefield..."

Miller suggests that the motivation behind this decision might be rooted in nostalgia and racism:

Tim Miller [11:17]: "...I have a theory. Racism. They like the Confederacy. It's Confederacy nostalgia."

Hertling concurs, pointing out the emotional appeals overriding logical and principled considerations:

Mark Hertling [12:20]: "It's all about emotions and opinions and rabidness, I guess."

5. Deployment of National Guard in Los Angeles for ICE Raids

The podcast shifts focus to the deployment of National Guard troops in Los Angeles, ostensibly to support ICE operations amidst ongoing protests and civil unrest.

Miller's Observation:

Tim Miller [14:10]: "...they're taking these guys to go to raid... feel to me be insane."

Hertling's Detailed Breakdown:

Mark Hertling [15:14]: "Any state's National Guard belongs to the governor... there was very little coordination."

He highlights the disruption caused to soldiers' personal lives and civilian jobs, noting that many guardsmen are single parents:

Mark Hertling [20:57]: "...guardsmen are single parents. So when they're deployed for 30 days or 60 days... that's a whole bunch of churn within the personal aspects of the Guard."

Miller questions the necessity and rationale behind utilizing military forces for such operations, insinuating political motivations over genuine public safety concerns.

Notable Quote:

Tim Miller [21:48]: "...they were going to do what was needed to work with... not the case that they're making."

Hertling elaborates on the limitations imposed by the Posse Comitatus Act, which restricts military involvement in domestic law enforcement:

Mark Hertling [25:30]: "Military forces, unless it's an emergency or an insurrection, do not have the power to police... It’s about approaching fellow citizens and arresting them when you're supposed to be defending them as the military."

6. Civil-Military Relations and Ethical Dilemmas

The discussion touches upon the ethical dilemmas faced by soldiers when ordered to partake in operations that may violate constitutional rights. Hertling acknowledges the confusion and moral conflicts that arise in such scenarios.

Notable Quote:

Mark Hertling [28:44]: "...these don’t seem to fit into our Constitution... the military is beholden to obey his legal orders, number one."

They explore the potential for a crisis in civil-military relations if such deployments become normalized, comparing the current situation to past civil unrest periods.

7. International Concerns: Ukraine and Russian Aggression

Shifting to international affairs, the hosts discuss the escalating tensions in Ukraine amidst Russia's intensified missile and drone attacks targeting civilian infrastructure.

Hertling's Insights:

Mark Hertling [36:32]: "Russia launched over 450 missiles and drones... targeting civilian infrastructure."

He criticizes the Russian strategy of targeting civilians to undermine Ukrainian morale and highlights the strain caused by perceived divisions within NATO and the U.S.

Notable Quote:

Mark Hertling [37:58]: "...NATO has come together. America sort of came together for a while, and now it's separating apart."

8. U.S. Support for Ukraine and Policy Shifts

The conversation covers concerns about potential reductions in U.S. support for Ukraine, particularly in air defense systems, as hinted by Secretary Hegseth's recent announcements.

Hertling's Assessment:

Mark Hertling [38:27]: "Ukraine... the biggest problem is they don't have the air defense capability that they need... Secretary Hegseth evidently eliminated as of today."

He also touches upon the possible revocation of Temporary Protected Status (TPS) for Ukrainians in the U.S., aligning it with the revocation of special visas for Afghans.

9. Director of National Intelligence’s Controversial Actions

The hosts critique the current Director of National Intelligence (DNI) for allegedly leveraging artificial intelligence to declassify sensitive JFK files and for releasing alarming statements about nuclear annihilation.

Tim Miller's Concerns:

Tim Miller [40:15]: "...she fed the JFK files into an AI... creepy video about how we're the closest we've ever been to nuclear annihilation."

Hertling's Critique:

Mark Hertling [41:09]: "Unless it's a secure AI capability, she's given up secrets... The DNI was supposed to be the coordinator of all intelligence agencies."

They express worry over the transparency and appropriateness of the DNI's public engagements, questioning the balance between open communication and operational security.

10. Deletion of CISA and Cybersecurity Implications

In closing, Hertling raises alarms about the disbanding of CISA (Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency), emphasizing its critical role in national defense against cyber threats.

Notable Quote:

Mark Hertling [42:57]: "...the deletion of CISA... cyber warfare is a potential national threat... we have completely disbanded the agency that's supposed to be protecting us."

He connects this move to broader concerns about election security and the undermining of institutions that safeguard democratic processes.

11. Closing Remarks

Despite the heavy topics covered, both hosts acknowledge the gravity of the current national and international climate. Hertling underscores the importance of adhering to constitutional values and the military's role in defending the nation without overstepping into political arenas.

Final Thoughts:

Mark Hertling [44:31]: "There is a lot of others... it's an interesting national security environment, isn't it?"

Tim Miller concludes:

Tim Miller [44:45]: "Please come back... Peace."

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast provides a comprehensive analysis of pressing issues intertwining military integrity, political maneuvering, and national security. Through the expertise of Mark Hertling, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the challenges facing American values and institutions in a tumultuous era.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Tim Miller [00:55]: "...I was pretty shook by President Trump's speech yesterday at Fort Bragg... I'm more interested in the reaction than in Trump's words."

• Donald Trump [01:39]: "Ladies and gentlemen, look at them. Look at them all. What I have to put up with. Fake news... In Los Angeles, the Governor of California, the mayor of Los Angeles, they're incompetent."

• Mark Hertling [02:20]: "...the military, especially the army, draws from all elements of the population... It was very disappointing."

• Mark Hertling [07:14]: "...respect for all people. And so when you're jeering the press or you're jeering Governor Newsom... that's just not appropriate in the military culture."

• Tim Miller [11:17]: "...I have a theory. Racism. They like the Confederacy. It's Confederacy nostalgia."

• Mark Hertling [12:20]: "It's all about emotions and opinions and rabidness, I guess."

• Tim Miller [21:48]: "...they were going to do what was needed to work with... not the case that they're making."

• Mark Hertling [25:30]: "Military forces, unless it's an emergency or an insurrection, do not have the power to police... It’s about approaching fellow citizens and arresting them when you're supposed to be defending them as the military."

• Mark Hertling [36:32]: "Russia launched over 450 missiles and drones... targeting civilian infrastructure."

• Mark Hertling [37:58]: "...NATO has come together. America sort of came together for a while, and now it's separating apart."

• Mark Hertling [38:27]: "Ukraine... the biggest problem is they don't have the air defense capability that they need... Secretary Hegseth evidently eliminated as of today."

• Mark Hertling [41:09]: "Unless it's a secure AI capability, she's given up secrets... The DNI was supposed to be the coordinator of all intelligence agencies."

• Mark Hertling [42:57]: "...the deletion of CISA... cyber warfare is a potential national threat... we have completely disbanded the agency that's supposed to be protecting us."