Podcast Summary: The Bulwark Podcast – “Mark Hertling: Performative and Deadly”
Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mark Hertling
Additional Speakers: Sam Stein
Overview
This episode features retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling in a no-holds-barred discussion about the latest U.S. military actions abroad, high-level purges within the Pentagon, the politicization of military honors, National Guard deployments, recruitment challenges, and the global situations in Ukraine and Israel. The episode’s throughline is a critical examination of “performative” displays of force and the deadly, lasting impacts of such policies, punctuated by Hertling’s insistence on the necessity of principle, legality, and moral clarity in national security.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Venezuelan Drug Boat Strike: Overkill and Legality
Timestamps: 00:42–10:19
- Background: U.S. forces struck an alleged drug-running boat off Venezuela, killing 11 members of a Venezuelan gang. Both Trump and Rubio gave conflicting narratives about the boat’s destination—Rubio said Trinidad, Trump insisted it was destined for America.
- Hertling’s Analysis:
- Raises legal and operational questions: Was this an extrajudicial strike? Was the intelligence solid?
- Notes that boats are inefficient for drug trafficking—aircraft are more common. Often, these boats are used for human trafficking, not drugs.
- Quote [02:33]: “It’s overkill. That’s the best way to put it. And it’s not necessarily legal.” — Mark Hertling
- Warns this may be the start of a broader campaign against Venezuelan cartels, hinting at a performative show of force rather than an effective strategy.
2. War on Drugs as Political Theater
Timestamps: 08:48–10:19
- Performative, Not Strategic:
- Miller and Hertling agree these strikes are “about making headlines” instead of targeting real threats.
- Quote [09:15]: “It’s just: here’s what we’re doing, we’re badasses, we want to destroy things and make our base happy… But it makes for a great headline.” — Mark Hertling
- Questions the true threat of Venezuelan cartels to the U.S. and highlights the administration’s lack of meaningful results.
3. Purges of Military and Intelligence Leaders
Timestamps: 11:44–16:58
- Widespread Firing:
- Recent dismissals of high-ranking officials, including the Director of the DIA and service chiefs, for providing analysis inconsistent with administration talking points.
- Chilling effect: Remaining leaders fear honest advice will get them fired, compromising integrity.
- Quote [12:49]: “It is causing just a pale across the military force… It keeps everybody else quiet because they don’t know if they’re next.” — Mark Hertling
- Loss of expertise: Legal advisors and inspector generals also being purged.
4. Dangers of Yes-Men and Silence
Timestamps: 17:01–19:19
- Historical Parallels:
- Hertling points to Bush ignoring CIA dissent leading to Iraq, Hitler ignoring generals, and systemic dysfunction from sidelining dissenters.
- Red Teaming: Describes military practice of intentionally seeking contrarian advice to avoid tunnel vision.
- Quote [17:14]: “Anybody that offers contrarian advice are just squashed.” — Mark Hertling
- Reduced capacity for informed, prudent decision-making as the National Security Council is gutted.
5. Debunking “Trump Solved Seven Wars” Claims
Timestamps: 19:19–21:33
- Fact Check of Trump’s Claims:
- Runs through the seven conflicts Trump claims to have solved (India-Pakistan, Thailand-Cambodia, Congo-Rwanda, Armenia-Azerbaijan, Egypt-Ethiopia, Serbia-Kosovo, Israel-Iran).
- Concludes none were truly resolved.
- Quote [21:29]: “None of them are accurately completed.” — Mark Hertling
6. Recall of Torture Debate & Legal Ethics
Timestamps: 21:56–23:27
- Iraq & Afghanistan Precedent:
- Military refused to perform torture as it was ruled illegal, so the CIA took up the practice.
- Quote [22:17]: “The legal advice was: soldiers can’t do this… so the CIA took it on.” — Mark Hertling
- Concerns over eliminating legal reviews for military actions under current administration.
7. Military Use/Abuse in Domestic Policing
Timestamps: 23:27–34:23
- National Guard Deployments:
- Administration floating deployment in cities like New Orleans, Chicago, and D.C., navigating legal gray areas.
- Hertling explains the law strictly limits the Guard’s ability to perform policing functions—most soldiers are not trained for law enforcement.
- Use of troops appears performative and politically motivated rather than practical.
- Quote [29:15]: “If the governor says, ‘We’re going to mobilize the Guard in New Orleans,’ okay, that’s great. What are you going to have them do?” — Mark Hertling
- Highlights lack of connection between visible military presence and real improvements in law enforcement.
8. Recruitment, Culture, and Dangerous Motivations
Timestamps: 34:24–37:42
- Recruitment Challenges:
- Points to dangers when ICE/policing jobs attract individuals with violent or vengeful motivations, e.g. the “Cyborg” MMA fighter example.
- Recruitment should filter for selfless service, not aggression.
- Quote [36:08]: “If you’re recruiting people that want to slam people’s faces into the concrete, you’ve got the wrong person.” — Mark Hertling
9. Ukraine, Russia, and Waning U.S. Support
Timestamps: 38:34–43:00
- War Update:
- European coalition struggling to support Ukraine without core U.S. capabilities (air defense, intelligence, logistics).
- Russia is in dire straits (running out of ammo, economic collapse) but China/India support could prolong conflict.
- Quote [39:36]: “The Europeans are putting up a good front… But there is going to be a delta… that could only be provided by the United States.” — Mark Hertling
- Morale in Ukraine is deeply affected by American hesitation: “…the main issue is: Are you really for democracy and sovereignty, or are you not?” — [42:51]
10. Israel, Gaza, and the Absence of Political Strategy
Timestamps: 43:00–44:14
- No Endgame in Sight:
- Critiques Israel’s refusal to articulate a political endgame post-Hamas.
- Warns that disregarding civilian impact will have long-term costs.
- Quote [43:45]: “You can’t go into war… if you’re not considering what’s going to happen when the fighting stops.” — Mark Hertling
11. Military Honors for Ashley Babbitt
Timestamps: 44:17–48:14
- Controversy:
- Air Force reversing decision, granting military honors to Ashley Babbitt (killed storming the Capitol).
- Hertling: this dishonors the oath and feeds divisiveness between the public and the military.
- Quote [45:14]: “There are those who take that oath… and she was doing exactly the opposite.” — Mark Hertling
12. Florida’s Vaccine Policy and Social Responsibility
Timestamps: 48:14–50:37
- Repeal of Vaccine Mandates:
- Predicts outbreaks and more strain on hospitals.
- Urges a balance between individual freedom and social responsibility.
- Quote [50:16]: “Individual freedoms are important, but what is also important is social responsibility…” — Mark Hertling
13. Hope & Civic Optimism
Timestamps: 50:41–52:21
- Looking for Silver Linings:
- Finds hope in citizen response to overreach, drawing on Baltic movements against Russian oppression.
- Quote [51:04]: “I think that’s when the American citizens are going to stand up and make a difference… everyone is feeling the negative effect of what has been happening with our administration.” — Mark Hertling
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “It’s overkill… and it’s not necessarily legal.” — Mark Hertling, on Pentagon’s strike on the Venezuelan boat [02:33]
- “It keeps everybody else quiet because they don’t know if they’re next.” — Mark Hertling, on Pentagon purges [12:49]
- “Anybody that offers contrarian advice are just squashed.” — Mark Hertling [17:14]
- “None of them are accurately completed.” — Mark Hertling, on Trump’s claim to having resolved seven wars [21:29]
- “If you’re recruiting people that want to slam people’s faces into the concrete… you’ve got the wrong person.” — Mark Hertling [36:08]
- “Are you really for democracy and sovereignty, or are you not?” — Mark Hertling, on waning U.S. support for Ukraine [42:51]
- “You can’t go into a war… if you’re not considering what’s going to happen when the fighting stops.” — Mark Hertling, about Israel [43:45]
- “She was doing exactly the opposite.” — Mark Hertling, about Ashley Babbitt’s claim to military honors [45:14]
- “Individual freedoms are important, but what is also important is social responsibility…” — Mark Hertling, on public health [50:16]
- “It’s almost time that the citizens of our country start doing something like [the Baltic human chain] because everyone is feeling the negative effect…” — Mark Hertling [51:04]
Episode Structure & Key Segment Timestamps
- 00:42–10:19: Venezuelan boat strike—legality, motives, drug vs. human trafficking
- 10:19–11:44: Advertisements & transition
- 11:44–19:19: Military personnel purges, suppression of dissent, historical parallels
- 19:19–21:33: Trump’s “seven wars” myth-busting
- 21:56–23:27: Torture, military ethics, JAG roles
- 23:27–34:23: Domestic deployments, National Guard, performative militarism
- 34:24–37:42: Recruitment, ICE, dangerous personnel motivations
- 38:34–43:00: Russia/Ukraine update, European coalition, morale
- 43:00–44:14: Israel/Gaza assessment
- 44:17–48:14: Ashley Babbitt, politicizing military honor
- 48:14–50:37: Florida’s vaccine mandate repeal, social cohesion
- 50:41–52:21: Closing optimism, lessons from Baltic civic movements
Tone & Style
The conversation is urgent, critical, and direct with occasional biting humor and dry asides, reflecting both the gravity and absurdity of current events. Hertling, measured but passionate, grounds his analysis in personal experience and institutional memory.
For Listeners: Takeaways
- U.S. military actions and decision-making are increasingly shaped by political performance, not strategic necessity.
- Legal, ethical, and expert dissent within the Pentagon is being systematically suppressed, with dangerous long-term consequences.
- Domestic deployment of troops is more about optics than effectiveness; there are limits to what the military can legally and practically do internally.
- Trump administration’s claims of foreign policy achievements often do not withstand scrutiny.
- Support for Ukraine is at a pivotal moment and transatlantic cohesion is at risk.
- Vigilant, principled citizenship and institutional expertise remain urgently needed.