Mark Hertling: Performative and Deadly

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Bulwark Podcast – “Mark Hertling: Performative and Deadly”

Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mark Hertling
Additional Speakers: Sam Stein

---

Overview

This episode features retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling in a no-holds-barred discussion about the latest U.S. military actions abroad, high-level purges within the Pentagon, the politicization of military honors, National Guard deployments, recruitment challenges, and the global situations in Ukraine and Israel. The episode’s throughline is a critical examination of “performative” displays of force and the deadly, lasting impacts of such policies, punctuated by Hertling’s insistence on the necessity of principle, legality, and moral clarity in national security.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Venezuelan Drug Boat Strike: Overkill and Legality

Timestamps: 00:42–10:19

• Background: U.S. forces struck an alleged drug-running boat off Venezuela, killing 11 members of a Venezuelan gang. Both Trump and Rubio gave conflicting narratives about the boat’s destination—Rubio said Trinidad, Trump insisted it was destined for America.
• Hertling’s Analysis:
  • Raises legal and operational questions: Was this an extrajudicial strike? Was the intelligence solid?
  • Notes that boats are inefficient for drug trafficking—aircraft are more common. Often, these boats are used for human trafficking, not drugs.
  • Quote [02:33]: “It’s overkill. That’s the best way to put it. And it’s not necessarily legal.” — Mark Hertling
  • Warns this may be the start of a broader campaign against Venezuelan cartels, hinting at a performative show of force rather than an effective strategy.

2. War on Drugs as Political Theater

Timestamps: 08:48–10:19

• Performative, Not Strategic:
  • Miller and Hertling agree these strikes are “about making headlines” instead of targeting real threats.
  • Quote [09:15]: “It’s just: here’s what we’re doing, we’re badasses, we want to destroy things and make our base happy… But it makes for a great headline.” — Mark Hertling
  • Questions the true threat of Venezuelan cartels to the U.S. and highlights the administration’s lack of meaningful results.

3. Purges of Military and Intelligence Leaders

Timestamps: 11:44–16:58

• Widespread Firing:
  • Recent dismissals of high-ranking officials, including the Director of the DIA and service chiefs, for providing analysis inconsistent with administration talking points.
  • Chilling effect: Remaining leaders fear honest advice will get them fired, compromising integrity.
  • Quote [12:49]: “It is causing just a pale across the military force… It keeps everybody else quiet because they don’t know if they’re next.” — Mark Hertling
  • Loss of expertise: Legal advisors and inspector generals also being purged.

4. Dangers of Yes-Men and Silence

Timestamps: 17:01–19:19

• Historical Parallels:
  • Hertling points to Bush ignoring CIA dissent leading to Iraq, Hitler ignoring generals, and systemic dysfunction from sidelining dissenters.
  • Red Teaming: Describes military practice of intentionally seeking contrarian advice to avoid tunnel vision.
  • Quote [17:14]: “Anybody that offers contrarian advice are just squashed.” — Mark Hertling
  • Reduced capacity for informed, prudent decision-making as the National Security Council is gutted.

5. Debunking “Trump Solved Seven Wars” Claims

Timestamps: 19:19–21:33

• Fact Check of Trump’s Claims:
  • Runs through the seven conflicts Trump claims to have solved (India-Pakistan, Thailand-Cambodia, Congo-Rwanda, Armenia-Azerbaijan, Egypt-Ethiopia, Serbia-Kosovo, Israel-Iran).
  • Concludes none were truly resolved.
  • Quote [21:29]: “None of them are accurately completed.” — Mark Hertling

6. Recall of Torture Debate & Legal Ethics

Timestamps: 21:56–23:27

• Iraq & Afghanistan Precedent:
  • Military refused to perform torture as it was ruled illegal, so the CIA took up the practice.
  • Quote [22:17]: “The legal advice was: soldiers can’t do this… so the CIA took it on.” — Mark Hertling
  • Concerns over eliminating legal reviews for military actions under current administration.

7. Military Use/Abuse in Domestic Policing

Timestamps: 23:27–34:23

• National Guard Deployments:
  • Administration floating deployment in cities like New Orleans, Chicago, and D.C., navigating legal gray areas.
  • Hertling explains the law strictly limits the Guard’s ability to perform policing functions—most soldiers are not trained for law enforcement.
  • Use of troops appears performative and politically motivated rather than practical.
  • Quote [29:15]: “If the governor says, ‘We’re going to mobilize the Guard in New Orleans,’ okay, that’s great. What are you going to have them do?” — Mark Hertling
  • Highlights lack of connection between visible military presence and real improvements in law enforcement.

8. Recruitment, Culture, and Dangerous Motivations

Timestamps: 34:24–37:42

• Recruitment Challenges:
  • Points to dangers when ICE/policing jobs attract individuals with violent or vengeful motivations, e.g. the “Cyborg” MMA fighter example.
  • Recruitment should filter for selfless service, not aggression.
  • Quote [36:08]: “If you’re recruiting people that want to slam people’s faces into the concrete, you’ve got the wrong person.” — Mark Hertling

9. Ukraine, Russia, and Waning U.S. Support

Timestamps: 38:34–43:00

• War Update:
  • European coalition struggling to support Ukraine without core U.S. capabilities (air defense, intelligence, logistics).
  • Russia is in dire straits (running out of ammo, economic collapse) but China/India support could prolong conflict.
  • Quote [39:36]: “The Europeans are putting up a good front… But there is going to be a delta… that could only be provided by the United States.” — Mark Hertling
  • Morale in Ukraine is deeply affected by American hesitation: “…the main issue is: Are you really for democracy and sovereignty, or are you not?” — [42:51]

10. Israel, Gaza, and the Absence of Political Strategy

Timestamps: 43:00–44:14

• No Endgame in Sight:
  • Critiques Israel’s refusal to articulate a political endgame post-Hamas.
  • Warns that disregarding civilian impact will have long-term costs.
  • Quote [43:45]: “You can’t go into war… if you’re not considering what’s going to happen when the fighting stops.” — Mark Hertling

11. Military Honors for Ashley Babbitt

Timestamps: 44:17–48:14

• Controversy:
  • Air Force reversing decision, granting military honors to Ashley Babbitt (killed storming the Capitol).
  • Hertling: this dishonors the oath and feeds divisiveness between the public and the military.
  • Quote [45:14]: “There are those who take that oath… and she was doing exactly the opposite.” — Mark Hertling

12. Florida’s Vaccine Policy and Social Responsibility

Timestamps: 48:14–50:37

• Repeal of Vaccine Mandates:
  • Predicts outbreaks and more strain on hospitals.
  • Urges a balance between individual freedom and social responsibility.
  • Quote [50:16]: “Individual freedoms are important, but what is also important is social responsibility…” — Mark Hertling

13. Hope & Civic Optimism

Timestamps: 50:41–52:21

• Looking for Silver Linings:
  • Finds hope in citizen response to overreach, drawing on Baltic movements against Russian oppression.
  • Quote [51:04]: “I think that’s when the American citizens are going to stand up and make a difference… everyone is feeling the negative effect of what has been happening with our administration.” — Mark Hertling

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s overkill… and it’s not necessarily legal.” — Mark Hertling, on Pentagon’s strike on the Venezuelan boat [02:33]
• “It keeps everybody else quiet because they don’t know if they’re next.” — Mark Hertling, on Pentagon purges [12:49]
• “Anybody that offers contrarian advice are just squashed.” — Mark Hertling [17:14]
• “None of them are accurately completed.” — Mark Hertling, on Trump’s claim to having resolved seven wars [21:29]
• “If you’re recruiting people that want to slam people’s faces into the concrete… you’ve got the wrong person.” — Mark Hertling [36:08]
• “Are you really for democracy and sovereignty, or are you not?” — Mark Hertling, on waning U.S. support for Ukraine [42:51]
• “You can’t go into a war… if you’re not considering what’s going to happen when the fighting stops.” — Mark Hertling, about Israel [43:45]
• “She was doing exactly the opposite.” — Mark Hertling, about Ashley Babbitt’s claim to military honors [45:14]
• “Individual freedoms are important, but what is also important is social responsibility…” — Mark Hertling, on public health [50:16]
• “It’s almost time that the citizens of our country start doing something like [the Baltic human chain] because everyone is feeling the negative effect…” — Mark Hertling [51:04]

---

Episode Structure & Key Segment Timestamps

• 00:42–10:19: Venezuelan boat strike—legality, motives, drug vs. human trafficking
• 10:19–11:44: Advertisements & transition
• 11:44–19:19: Military personnel purges, suppression of dissent, historical parallels
• 19:19–21:33: Trump’s “seven wars” myth-busting
• 21:56–23:27: Torture, military ethics, JAG roles
• 23:27–34:23: Domestic deployments, National Guard, performative militarism
• 34:24–37:42: Recruitment, ICE, dangerous personnel motivations
• 38:34–43:00: Russia/Ukraine update, European coalition, morale
• 43:00–44:14: Israel/Gaza assessment
• 44:17–48:14: Ashley Babbitt, politicizing military honor
• 48:14–50:37: Florida’s vaccine mandate repeal, social cohesion
• 50:41–52:21: Closing optimism, lessons from Baltic civic movements

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is urgent, critical, and direct with occasional biting humor and dry asides, reflecting both the gravity and absurdity of current events. Hertling, measured but passionate, grounds his analysis in personal experience and institutional memory.

---

For Listeners: Takeaways

• U.S. military actions and decision-making are increasingly shaped by political performance, not strategic necessity.
• Legal, ethical, and expert dissent within the Pentagon is being systematically suppressed, with dangerous long-term consequences.
• Domestic deployment of troops is more about optics than effectiveness; there are limits to what the military can legally and practically do internally.
• Trump administration’s claims of foreign policy achievements often do not withstand scrutiny.
• Support for Ukraine is at a pivotal moment and transatlantic cohesion is at risk.
• Vigilant, principled citizenship and institutional expertise remain urgently needed.

---

Transcript

[Mark Hertling]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the board podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back retired lieutenant general. He's a former commanding general of the U.S. army in Europe. He's the pride of CBC High School in St. Louis, Missouri. It's of course, Mark Hartling. How you doing?

[Sam Stein]

Hey, good.

[Mark Hertling]

Tim, I don't know why you're asking me on today. There's nothing at all to talk about.

[Tim Miller]

Well, you said in the green room you want to try to be optimistic about something. So I'm excited to see where that comes.

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. My topic outline here has a lot of bleakness. I want to start. I've been obsessed with the story but.

[Sam Stein]

Just haven't had a chance to get to it. And it's kind of the nature of our world right now. And so I want to start with it. And that is the attack, I guess.

[Tim Miller]

On the drug running boat, the alleged drug running boat outside of Venezuela. If you will miss this, on Tuesday, the Pentagon made a precision strike against what they say is a drug vessel.

[Sam Stein]

Operated by Trenta aragua. Trump said 11 members of that Venezuelan.

[Tim Miller]

Gang had been killed while transporting the drugs.

[Sam Stein]

He shared a video of the attack on a speedboat.

[Tim Miller]

I've got a lot of concerns and questions here, but just I'm curious at.

[Sam Stein]

The biggest picture, what you think about that news.

[Mark Hertling]

There are so many things to talk about with that particular issue. The context of was it legal? Why are we doing it this way? What's the operational design? What kind of mission set is the Navy have versus a Coast guard? How can we not pass intelligence? And truthfully, there's been a lot of talk in the circles I hang out in and former military guys, was this even a legal strike? It seems to be an extrajudicial killing which we saw a lot of when we were fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan, you know, a long time ago. Tim, I tell you, when I was a young major, I almost was assigned to something called JTF6, which was their counternarcotics effort coming out of El Paso, Texas. I was big into the narco terrorism world, understanding how it went. Wrote a couple of articles. In fact, I just wrote one for the Bulwark about narco terrorism and how, you know, there's two sides of this, both the supply side and the demand side and how our wars back in the late 1980s, early 1990s to take out narco terrorists were not going to be very successful. But in this case, yesterday or two days ago when they struck this boat, it seems like there would have been A whole lot different approach to it if you had a legal recommendation, because just striking a ship as I think it was. Rand Paul said, we don't really know who was on that. I would suggest the intelligence was probably better and it probably was a drug running cigarette boat, as they call them. But it's overkill. That's the best way to put it. And it's not necessarily legal.

[Tim Miller]

I have a couple of follow up questions on that, but I want to kind of back it up even more about whether this is even a drug running operation of drugs that would come to America. There was this cool article I read a couple months ago that I kind.

[Sam Stein]

Of mapped out where all the cocaine comes and goes from.

[Tim Miller]

It was one of these very cool.

[Sam Stein]

Pieces of journalism and you can sort of watch it. Is it like how it gets to Europe and how it gets to America?

[Tim Miller]

We don't even get cocaine from Venezuela in America. I mean, I think this has to kind of matter. 90 plus percent of our cocaine comes from Colombia. There's some from Peru, some from Bolivia.

[Sam Stein]

Some from Mexico, but we don't get cocaine from Venezuela.

[Tim Miller]

So what were they trafficking here? Rubio said on Tuesday that this boat.

[Sam Stein]

Was going to Trinidad.

[Tim Miller]

And then Trump said later in the.

[Sam Stein]

Day that it was coming to America.

[Tim Miller]

So yesterday Rubio changed his story to.

[Sam Stein]

Say it was coming, it was coming to America.

[Tim Miller]

Like that seems to be a lie. Like it seems to be, right? I mean, even if it was a drug trafficking boat, like it, it doesn't seem to be a boat that was coming here.

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah. And what's interesting is the Coast Guard, if you talk to anybody in the Coast Guard and I've actually seen one of these operations, they will tell you that boats aren't the most efficient way to bring drugs into the country. It's usually small aircraft at different outside city airports coming in and out to different locations. A cigarette boat can only hold X amount of narcotics and it's not enough really to bring it into the shores. And there's going to be checks on it whenever they, they dock somewhere. So those who are running cigarette boats between Venezuela or Colombia or any place like that are normally human traffickers because they can get more money transporting human beings than they can drugs. I was on a mission one time with the Coast Guard where it was fascinating because they don't have a whole lot of ships that can keep up with a cigarette boat. So they will launch a cruiser or one of their Coast Guard cutters out, launch a helicopter with a sniper in it, shoot out the engine of the cigarette boat and then board the vessel and take charge of the people who are driving it and whatever they're transporting, usually human beings.

[Tim Miller]

We should just say it explicitly because, like, that's a reason also not to drone the boat. I mean, again, if these are human.

[Sam Stein]

Traffickers, if that's what's happening, obviously we'd love to see accountability for human traffickers of things we can effectively do to cut down on that. That'd be great. But what if there were humans that were being trafficked on the boat? Right?

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah. And I don't know how a cigarette boat would have 11 crew members transporting drugs. That's an awful lot of people for that kind of a mission set. So there's just some disconnects in the whole thing. But I'll counter that by saying U.S. intelligence on these kind of things. They're relatively good coming out of Southern Command. So they must have had some kind of indicator. They said they had been watching this, this particular boat for a couple of days, and then when it took off, they decided to strike it. It just doesn't, to me, make a lot of sense. But again, Trump was claiming that it's part of the counterterrorism because ADT is a terrorist organization. But there's no authorization for use of military force against terrorists anymore, certainly not in Central America. And so whenever that happens, you have to go to Congress and say, hey, we're looking to go to war against someone. Because this was Casas Belli. This was an act of war against another country if that boat was coming out of Venezuela.

[Tim Miller]

And they said they're going to keep doing it. The Times story here from yesterday, the Trump administration says the boat strike is the start of a campaign against the Venezuelan cartels. Hegseth said that there's going to be.

[Sam Stein]

More of these to come. So again, by law, that would be something that Congress would have to authorize.

[Mark Hertling]

Well, you also, at the very beginning of this, they were very, the Defense Department was very proud about saying, we have six U.S. navy cruisers, Marine Expeditionary Force, a bunch of helicopters, 2,500 Marines. I mean, you don't need that many people in a troop to task relationship just to knock out a couple of drug boats. So it appears that there is something further on the horizon of what they might be planning on doing. And you know, there are some people that say this is a pretty smart move, but those people don't understand the use of force, and they don't understand the legalities of violating international law by knocking out a boat on open seas without Any kind of pure cause for it. There are a lot of problems with this.

[Tim Miller]

Color me skeptical that the guys that photoshopped the letters onto the guy's hand to try to claim that he was a, a member of a gang are.

[Sam Stein]

Telling us the truth on this.

[Tim Miller]

I guess. One last question, because if you were going to reignite the war on drugs.

[Sam Stein]

In a more aggressive way here, because it was so effective the first time and you wanted to go after like the root of drugs are coming to America, like you would do it in Mexico. Right.

[Tim Miller]

To me this kind of seems like, like they're doing it because they want to say that they're doing something and.

[Sam Stein]

And because Venezuela does not pose a real like military or economic threat. Right.

[Tim Miller]

I mean like if you're doing it.

[Sam Stein]

In Mexico, that like creates all of these other issues for like cross border trade and economic stuff. And so, and there was some of the MAGA people that were like, we should go to war against the cartels. And to me this is kind of like, well, we can't do that, so we're going to do this other thing instead, you know, where there isn't as many other ancillary issues. What do you make of that?

[Mark Hertling]

Well, you know, I'd say from a military perspective and I would hope they'd be getting military advice on this, but it seems like this is more of a show than an actual targeting session. When you're talking about killing enemy people or taking some kind of action that's tied to strategy. In this particular case, you could hit three different points. You could hit the production point, the delivery point or the transfer point. And what they hit with this boat was the transport point. So that is the least effective and efficient because they can find new ways to transport it. So if you really want to destroy a drug cartel's capability, you hit where they either make the drugs or where they deliver it. And those things have different targeting procedures associated with them. Both of them could be effective and efficient, but it's got to have a whole lot more process development. And, and what we're seeing, Tim, I keep going back to it's performative. It's just here's what we're doing. We're badasses. We wanna destroy things and make our base happy. Well, most of the base that's happy about this don't understand military operations and how inefficient and ineffective this kind of a strike is. But it makes for a great headline especially.

[Tim Miller]

Cause like I said, I know they're hitting it on a transfer point. And I don't think they're transporting here, but we have a lot of listeners out there. We've got a lot of viewers on YouTube. If anybody's getting Venezuelan coke, you know.

[Sam Stein]

And want to DM me and correct the record on this, you can let me know. But I don't, I don't believe that's what's happening.

[Tim Miller]

Cooler temps are rolling in. Well, for some of you people, not.

[Sam Stein]

Down here in the bayou, but you.

[Tim Miller]

Know, we got to be prepared. We got to be prepped for that kind of depressing earlier sunset and chillier weather. And so we're turning to Quince for fall staples that actually last from cashmere to denim to boots. The quality holds up and the price is exactly what you're looking for. Quince has the kind of fall staples you'll wear non stop, like super soft, 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just 60 bucks. What makes Quince different? They partner directly with ethical factories and skip the middlemen. So you get top tier fabrics and craftsmanship at half the price of similar brands. I've been wearing my quints. Cam Caskey will tell you what I've.

[Sam Stein]

Been wearing, which is my denim shirts.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I love a denim shirt. Excuse me, sorry for parting in my denim shirt, but I've gotten some other stuff too, including some clothes for my daughter. They have kids clothes as well. Some other staples and basics. I had some Quint's stuff from last season, like my army shacket.

[Sam Stein]

I'm excited to get back into. You know, I don't know when the weather's appropriate here for that. Probably not till November.

[Tim Miller]

Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.com the bulwark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-I-N-E.com thebullwerk free free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com the bulwark I want to talk to you about military purges.

[Sam Stein]

You wrote for us a couple articles I want to talk about, which I really appreciate. One was a couple weeks ago now, but it's still relevant.

[Tim Miller]

It was Donald Trump, General Cruz and.

[Sam Stein]

The Perils of Yes Men was the title of the article.

[Tim Miller]

And we've seen pretty widespread purges now from within the military and the security.

[Sam Stein]

Apparatus relevant to what we're talking about with Venezuela that Tulsi purged a couple of people who put out a report saying that Venezuela wasn't trying to invade us because that undermined the Trump immigration agenda. So those are a couple of experts that were lost. We've lost people. I guess this isn't military really, but FBI who do counterintel stuff, who have expertise on that, who have gotten pushed out. We interviewed one of those folks a couple weeks ago. Now, you wrote about this Lt. Gen. Cruz, who is the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, who got pushed out because he gave a unapproved assessments on the Iran bombing. Chief of Staff of the Air Force, you mentioned also in that article, how.

[Tim Miller]

Big of a problem is this? As you mentioned, you're kind of on.

[Sam Stein]

These sort of in these conversations with other ex military people. What are people saying and hearing about all this?

[Mark Hertling]

It is causing just a pale across the military force, of senior military force. You know, the dedication of the professional military officers, the general and flag, you know, admirals, the flag officers that are out there. They will obey the legal orders of any president. That is the civil military relationship. If it's a democratically elected leader, they will obey those people. But when you start firing a lot of folks and there have been a lot of folks fired or told to resign, it's troublesome because it tends to keep everybody else quiet because they don't know if they're next. They have a dual loyalty, Tim. This is the other factor that's involved. You know, sometimes a lot of people are saying, how come these generals aren't throwing their stars on the table and quitting? Well, because they have a loyalty to their boss, the President, but they also have a loyalty to their soldiers. And they realize that if they quit, the soldiers are going to say, hey, Hertling can get out. He's a general. He can resign his commission and leave the military and somebody else is going to come on. We can't do that. We're in for an enlistment period of three to five years. So there's that dynamic. But what we're seeing, and it relates directly to what we were talking about earlier with the Venezuelan strike. There is no lawyer in the world, no military lawyer in the world who would have said that's an accurate capability and go ahead and strike it because it's legal. That was probably illegal. Now, the Defense Department said they got a legal review and everything was okay. I'd like to see that legal review because those are the same kind of legal reviews that the Defense Department gave a thumbs down to when they were asked to have soldiers waterboard people during Afghanistan and Iraq. And, and no one in the military did it because it was illegal. So those are the kinds of things we're talking about. All of the Judge Advocate Generals of the various services have been fired. All of the inspector generals that take a look at things that are troublesome in each branch of the service have been fired. And about from my count, three of the five chiefs of staff of the various services have either been fired or told to resign. The most recent ones, General Alvin, who was the chief of staff of the Air Force, made a comment and made an argument in closed circles, as I understand it, that we shouldn't be singularly focused on China, that there are several other threats in the world and we can't just put all of our resources into monitoring China. And for that they said, hey, this doesn't fit in with the administration's narrative. We want to focus only on China, forget about Russia, forget about all these other alleged seven other places that President Trump brought peace toward, which none of those are true. And so he was told to resign because of that. In a normal period of time, Tim, when a chief of staff of a service retires or resigns early, man, that's national headlines. In this case with General Albom, it was Tuesday because two of the others, the Navy and the Coast Guard and others, have been relieved of their duty responsibilities. So there is a continual cut of people as well as the affecting of organizations, all on the basis of increasing lethality, like Secretary Hegset said. So I'm very troubled by it. In talking with several of my retired and active duty peers, there are problems with it. Well, one other I'll mention General Sims, the director of the Joint Staff who I personally know, he's a great soldier, great leader, three star general, was getting ready to become a four star general. The director of the Joint Staff is a very critical role. And because he was connected to Milley, allegedly General Milley in a previous life, they fired him and didn't give him a four star and now he has to resign his commission. Those are the kinds of things that I think are really putting a pale over all of the senior leaders in the military and are causing some stutter steps within decision making and the advancement of military advice to the civilian leaders.

[Tim Miller]

One of the other implications that you wrote about was just kind of the.

[Sam Stein]

Potential perils of only having people around who are going to tell the President what he wants to hear or having people around who are afraid to give uncomfortable information. And some of this is obvious, but I just think it's worth stating explicitly.

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah, well, I mean you can go back through history and see the people that didn't pay attention to their advisors. And, and you can go back in history and see the ones that were both in our history and in other nation's histories. I mean, Bush didn't pay attention to the analysts at the CIA when they were telling him there doesn't seem to be yellow cake in Iraq. And it took us into a 15 year war. Hitler didn't listen to his generals about the Eastern front and he completely lost it. I mean, we can go down the list of a bunch of people who paid no attention to the, to their military advisors and, or any of their advisors, quite frankly. And we've seen the sycophantic approaches to cabinet meetings. But you also have to take a look at those who do take the advice and how much better off they are. Inside the military we have things called red teamings. Whenever I would make a decision about an operation, there was a team that would go off and say, what could possibly go wrong? What is Hertling not thinking about when he's giving this order? And they would pick the thing apart. Now all of that was done behind closed doors, but they would come back to me and say, hey boss, here's some things you may not have thought about. And in many cases it was like, holy crap. Yeah, you're right, I had thought about that. And that could give the enemy an advantage. So those are the kind of things that you want. But what we're seeing in the current administration is anybody that offers contrarian advice are just squashed. I read a piece this morning in the Wall Street Journal about the National Security Council not having the number of people that they should have to help the President make decisions. Well, the President can do anything he or she wants with the National Security Council. It's there to provide advice and consent from a bunch of different organizations that may be experts. When you draw that counsel down significantly and you dual task, the Secretary of State of being the National Security Advisor. You're going to have a government run through ad hoc ism and it's all on the decision making of one person because he is not taking the advice of others.

[Sam Stein]

I've kind of ignored the fucking Trump bluster about, oh, how I've solved seven wars or whatever that you kind of mentioned how it's not true.

[Tim Miller]

Sometimes it's valuable to just say what.

[Sam Stein]

Like explicitly say what you mean by.

[Tim Miller]

The fact that it's not true?

[Sam Stein]

Like what do you refer, like what has he been saying that you think is inaccurate on that?

[Mark Hertling]

Well, what I'm trying to figure out first of all is what are the seven wars he saw? Because India, Pakistan. Well, India Pakistan is one. I think he's claiming Israel, Iran, and that he brokered a ceasefire. We don't really know. Hostilities could resurface still from Iran, India.

[Tim Miller]

Pakistan, Congo, and Rwanda, I think.

[Mark Hertling]

Let me address India, Pakistan first. He says he's cooled the violence after the Kashmir debacle, and that's been going on for decades. So Indian officials deny this mediation and that they say that US Involvement may have had modest influence. Okay, so he didn't solve that war. Thailand, Cambodia. This is a border clash that ended allegedly with US Trade pressure causing it, but it's contributing in part to US Leverages, but part also to the fact that they didn't want to fight anymore. Congo, Rwanda. Peace agreement was facilitated, but the rebel groups haven't signed on to it yet. Hostilities are reduced, but the conflicts still persist. Armenia, Azerbaijan. Trump hosted the leaders who allegedly signed a peace document, but that final treaty isn't concluded, and the conflict still is unresolved. Egypt, Ethiopia. This is over the Nile Dam claim, and no formal peace deal is in place. And in fact, last night, I read a report that Egypt was mobilizing 40,000 troops and putting vehicles on train to head toward that location. The last one is Serbia, Kosovo. And there's been very little progress under Trump's second term, and there's been no major breakthroughs. So those are the seven he claims he has solved, but none of them are accurately completed.

[Sam Stein]

I love that. I followed up on that, and you just had it.

[Tim Miller]

You just pulled them all. You're just dropping.

[Mark Hertling]

And the two that he said he was gonna solve in the day, Israel and Ukraine. He's kind of given up on both.

[Sam Stein]

Of them worse than ever.

[Tim Miller]

You know, I just wanted to go back because I was. I was a young man when this happened. I know some of my.

[Sam Stein]

Some of my lefty critics like to blame me for the Iraq war, and I'm always like, I was hitting the.

[Tim Miller]

Bong during the Iraq war.

[Sam Stein]

I'm sorry. I just. I've. I have plenty of sins, but I don't. That one just wasn't on me.

[Tim Miller]

So you mentioned something just kind of.

[Sam Stein]

In passing, but I think it's important. Which was, like, what happened with the waterboarding and the enhanced interrogation stuff then? And what you said was that. And so now I'm going from memory, so you can correct me.

[Tim Miller]

The military assessed that it was illegal.

[Sam Stein]

And so it was CIA that was.

[Tim Miller]

Doing those operations, not military members.

[Sam Stein]

Is that what happened? I don't remember.

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah, the Legal advice to Secretary Rumsfeld at the time. And I happened to be serving my only Pentagon tour during that period on the Joint Staff. So I was privy to all this. The legal advice was soldiers can't do this military office. It's an illegal act. There's no proof that, that this will generate any kind of confessions. Or so Rumsfeld turned to, I think it was Tenet who was the CIA advisor at that time and said we can't do it. Can you do it? So the CIA took it on as a mission. So all the CIA black sites were because the military said we're not going to do waterboarding. It's torture. And torture under the laws of war is illegal.

[Sam Stein]

And obviously that didn't solve anything that.

[Tim Miller]

There were, you know, JAG officers that.

[Sam Stein]

Were getting in the way there.

[Tim Miller]

But it just as you project out.

[Sam Stein]

To potential risks and stuff going forward about the Hegseth approach, like the fact that he's basically eliminated that. I mean they have for show whatever legal reviews. We don't actually know yet as you mentioned it but. But Hegseth has, has shown such disdain for that projects like potentially some concerning orders coming from the military. Right. I mean that's like you want to have the legal reviews there.

[Mark Hertling]

Well, I mean we saw that this week with General Sherman in California who is testifying that the deployment of soldiers and marines to Los Angeles without the approval of the governor and making that into a quote insurrection act activity or an emergency when there wasn't an emergency claim, the head of the California National Guard stood up and said we didn't need them. And I was troubled because we were asking military people to do policing duties and that's illegal if you don't declare an insurrection. And he was claimed to be a non patriot and you know this is a guy who served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan ahead of the California National Guard, a two star general. And when he testified before the judge he said it was an illegal act. And you know, I can't tell my soldiers to do something that's illegal. And he was proclaimed to be a traitor and a libtard and woke and all that other stuff that they do to generals that talk about facts.

[Tim Miller]

Struggling to switch off at night after listening to an ominous Bulwark podcast. Well, soul's out of office. Gummies and beverages can help you relax, quiet your thoughts, fall asleep naturally. Just the right balance of CBD and THC to ease you into a restful night. Sol is a wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy they specialize in delicious hemp derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Their best selling out of Office Gummies were designed to provide a mild relaxing buzz, boost your mood, enhance creativity and relaxation. With five strengths, you can tailor the dose to fit your vibe from a gentle 1.5 microdose to their newest 15 milligram gummy. For a more elevated experience. Somewhere around the office were calling that 15 milligram gummy the Tim Special. I guess I take it as a compliment that I have a reputation as being somebody that could take a 15.

[Sam Stein]

Milligram gummy to the dome and then.

[Tim Miller]

Provide you this kind of insightful and engaging podcast experience the next day.

[Sam Stein]

But unfortunately that is not true and at best I'm a microdose man these days. I've gotten weak in middle age.

[Tim Miller]

Soul also has a variety of products specifically designed to you get a better night's rest, including their top selling Sleepy Gummies, a fan favorite for deep restorative sleep. So bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to Soul today. Right now, Soul is offering my audience 30% off your entire order. Go to GetSoul.com and use the code the Bulwark. That's GetSoul.com, promo code, the Bulwark for 30% off. That's important testimony because it seems like that campaign is continuing. Trump yesterday was talking about what they're.

[Sam Stein]

Going to do with Guard deployment options.

[Tim Miller]

And there's something that was interesting, I think, both politically and it's very relevant.

[Sam Stein]

To both of our areas of interest.

[Tim Miller]

Trump said this that he's considering now deploying National Guard troops to New Orleans instead of or in addition to Chicago. We're making a determination now do we go to Chicago or do we go to a place like New Orleans where we have a great governor, Jeff Landry.

[Sam Stein]

Who wants us to come in and straighten out a very nice section of this country. It's become quite, quite tough, quite bad.

[Tim Miller]

I want to get to the New Orleans part in a second, but first I thought it was kind of interesting and maybe revealing that maybe they are responsive to the legal pushback on this. Whereas going to Chicago would put them into a Los Angeles type situation where.

[Sam Stein]

They'Re going over the objection of the governor who's the commander in chief of the National Guard.

[Tim Miller]

Is that the right way to describe it?

[Sam Stein]

Whereas you could go to places like Louisiana where Jeff Landry would invite them to come and that would give them more leeway. Though I don't know how much leeway on doing some of these more policing activities. What do you think about that?

[Mark Hertling]

Well, first of all, unless there's an emergency and the president declares insurrection, the military, either National Guard or active, cannot conduct policing operations. They can support civilian authorities and. And in New Orleans, as an example, the governor can call up the Guard to support federal agents that come in that coordinate with the police force. But those Guard soldiers are not going to be arresting, detaining, or processing individuals. They only do a mission that's called support to civil authorities, SCAs. And what that means is they can guard a building. They can do paperwork and help the federal agents that are doing whatever they're doing. They can put up razor wire to, you know, protect something, but they can't actually grab a person, detain a person, put handcuffs on a person, or start booking a person for two reasons, Tim. First of all, most of these Guard soldiers are not military policemen. That's a very small force. When you mobilize the Guard, you're getting truck drivers, supply sergeants, tankers, infantry. None of those people have had any training on police actions. They have had training on maybe riot control or crowd control, protecting a building, but they can't arrest somebody. That's up to the either state or local or federal authorities. If the governor says, we're going to mobilize the Guard in New Orleans, okay, that's great. What are you going to have them do? What's their mission? Which is kind of silly in and of itself, but I think what's happening is the governor is saying, sure, I'll take the ICE agents in town and I'll allow them to come in and help my crime problem, which Governor Pritzker says, I don't need them. You know, my police are dealing with. You want to help me? Give me more money so I can hire 400 more cops. But the National Guard, as we saw in Washington and as we saw in Los Angeles mostly, were standing around doing nothing or picking up, you know, grass clippings and trash and things like that, like they were doing in D.C. we.

[Sam Stein]

Could use some pothole filling down here in New Orleans, so maybe that's a job for them.

[Tim Miller]

But I to your point about how.

[Sam Stein]

They can't do policing and how there are other options. This is the thing that drives me the most crazy about all this because John Kennedy, our senator, was speaking yesterday about this question.

[Tim Miller]

He said he'd support troops in New.

[Sam Stein]

Orleans because the local government there doesn't support police like they should. And our other problem is we don't have enough officers.

[Tim Miller]

Well, sending in the National Guard doesn't solve that problem because they can't do policing. And you know what Congress can't do? He's a senator. He's not a commentator on Fox. Like, he's a senator. So what they could do is pass a bill that gives funding to local jurisdictions to hire more police. That, like, such a bill was proposed during the Biden years by Democrats. Like, that could be a bipartisan bill. There are a lot of Democrats that would support that. If they felt like the problem was that there's not enough police, well, the government could just fund more local police. Like, that's a thing they could do. But instead, they're going to send in these troops who are not allowed to do policing by law. Like, meanwhile, we also have simultaneously, a funding shortage in New Orleans. I was just reading local news yesterday, and it made me kind of ruefully laugh about this. Right now we're only replacing streetlights on an emergency basis because of a funding shortage. Just like, what's gonna do more for helping crime in New Orleans, like sending in National Guard troops who can't do policing or actually making sure the fucking.

[Sam Stein]

Street lights work so people can't do.

[Tim Miller]

Crime in the dark, you know, like, the whole thing is crazy. And it comes amidst, like, a historic crime drop here where in 2022, you know, just for example, in April, it's like in April 2022, we had 24 murders at seven this year in February. Sixteen murders in that year to this year. So there's just no way to call this an emergency. It doesn't make any sense on any level. It's just back to the drug.

[Sam Stein]

It's a total show.

[Tim Miller]

It's total bullshit.

[Mark Hertling]

Well, and I was going to say that, you know, and I watched Senator Kennedy yesterday and some of his advice to the press in his cornponish manner. And it's fascinating to me if, if a reporter would just ask, senator, what do you think they're going to do when you say they need leadership in the New Orleans police force? You know, what are these military guys going to do? This infantryman or this supply officer or this air defense officer? What. How are they going to affect the New Orleans police force? If you want leadership, you know, you might want to take a look at your police academies and what they're doing in terms of developing leaders. The army isn't going to save you, Senator. They can only do so many things legally that you have created in legislation. So, yeah, it just. It makes no sense. And it's Partly due Tim, because a lot of people don't really understand what the military does. I was watching Nicole Wallace the other day talking to Randy Manners, who was a former Nav. National Guard commander, two star general. And he was explaining how mobilization of Guard, these young troopers and their leaders, they're coming out of civilian jobs. I mean, some of them are flipping burgers, some of them are office workers, some of them are lawyers, and they're mobilized. So first of all, they leave their firms in a lurch because they're not there. And employees sometimes really get pissed when there's repeated mobilizations of the Guard because they're losing their base of employees. Secondly, they're getting paid less while they're there. Most of them, some of them say, hey, this is a good deal. I'm getting mobilized for 30 days and I haven't been doing anything but going to college. So I'm going to, you know, maybe get some money to spend. That's good. But it's normally it's $11 an hour, which is under minimum wage for most privates. So you look at those kind of things and say, and then what do you want them to do? Because they're limited. If you think they're cops, they're not. You know, policemen take training for months or weeks and know how to conduct police work. These soldiers do not know how to do that.

[Tim Miller]

I think that for some of them.

[Sam Stein]

They just like the authoritarian costuming. Sure. Like that's just what they like.

[Tim Miller]

And then I think for others, and.

[Sam Stein]

I don't know where Kennedy lands on.

[Tim Miller]

This, but I think some of them.

[Sam Stein]

Truly do believe that just having guys walking around in fatigues scares the criminals away from doing crime. I don't know, maybe that works on.

[Tim Miller]

The margins, but it doesn't feel like the most efficient way to use our resources.

[Mark Hertling]

Well, presence is always good. I mean, if someone was going to commit a crime, if someone's there watching, they're not going to commit the crime. But eventually these guys are going to be pulling out. Trump is now saying that Washington, D.C. is down to zero crime. Zero is what he said yesterday. And what I'm thinking is, okay, great, as soon as everybody leaves, it's going to pop back up again because you haven't solved the problem. You've just intimidated for a while. And unless you want to keep National Guard and ICE and, you know, federal officers there forever and ever. Amen. The crime problem still exists. You haven't done anything.

[Sam Stein]

Maybe he does want that.

[Tim Miller]

This is not exactly your Bailey look, but I think that there's a parallel that I wanted to ask you about, about the kind of recruitment stories and.

[Sam Stein]

How you're doing recruitment in the military and what kind of folks you want. Because this is something I'm really worried about on the ice front. There's this Washington Post story yesterday about a guy named Aaron Ellie. He was an MMA fighter who went by the Cyborg. I don't know if you're a big.

[Tim Miller]

MMA fan, but his career flamed out.

[Sam Stein]

He ended up getting into it after.

[Tim Miller]

His hip gave out.

[Sam Stein]

He got upset, I guess, because his ability, as he says, his ability to advance in it was limited because the market is crowded with candidates from India. And so then he said this.

[Tim Miller]

I keep seeing these memes where Indians.

[Sam Stein]

Are bragging about taking our tech jobs.

[Tim Miller]

So I said, oh, yeah, well, I'm going to work with ICE and they're.

[Sam Stein]

Going to arrest you, slam your face on the pavement and send you home.

[Tim Miller]

And I just, I felt like there was a very chilling story.

[Sam Stein]

It's just one anecdote.

[Tim Miller]

But as they're trying to staff up quickly, this is something that there is.

[Sam Stein]

Maybe a parallel to the military, right? Like at times of war where you're trying to recruit people and you're trying to get people in, they're essentially doing that, like going to do a domestic war on migrants.

[Tim Miller]

What are your thoughts on all that?

[Mark Hertling]

Well, you know, recruitment is the most important thing we do in the military. We want people to come in because they want to serve something bigger than themselves. Sometimes they don't know that when they first join in, but they learn it very quickly that it is selfless service to the nation. When we talk about police, and I won't get into the ICE or any of those others, but when you talk about police, if you look at most police cars in most cities, they normally have, you know, the mantra on the. Written on the side of the police car, to protect and serve. So there's. There's an attitude that's supposed to go with that as well. If you're recruiting people that want to slam other people's faces into the concrete and take care of them and kick them out of the country, you probably got the wrong person. And when they do come into your force, you have to train them to have a set of values, a set of cultural behaviors, and a way that they conduct themselves as part of the organization, or it's going to be an embarrassment to the organization. I mean, you know, every time there's a mass shooting in the United States, the first thing that reporters like to find out is whether or not the person had a military background. And why that is is because, okay, they learn how to use weapons. Well, as a military guy, that troubles me. When someone who was a former military uses a weapon in a mass shooting, we failed somehow. And there's always the follow up question, well, didn't you do an emotional mental check on this guy before you let him in the service? Well, a little bit, but not much. And you can't change alliance stripes in a short period of time in training when you're actively recruiting people that want to do these kind of things, there are going to be the kinds of issues that we'll see on the streets right now of people being body slammed to the ground and cuffs put on without any, you know, adherence to citizens rights. That's not who we proclaim to be as a nation. You know, one of our national values is respect for all human beings. We're not showing that all that much right now.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, y', all, I warned you. I warned you. Our Toronto show has sold out. The Canadians love Sam Stein so much.

[Sam Stein]

That, you know, there are lines around the block to get tickets to it.

[Tim Miller]

But the good news is we still have tickets left for our live shows in Washington, D.C. and in New York coming up in early October. So go get those tickets now@the bulwark.com events. I'm missing LSU versus South Carolina for you guys. I'm going to be in New York for that. And so assuming that's an afternoon game, I might have a couple bourbons in me by the time we get on stage on Saturday night. So that one could be a rowdy one. So if you're looking for an excuse.

[Sam Stein]

To get to the Big Apple, see it.

[Tim Miller]

You know, go see a show Friday night, come see us Saturday night. Could be a fun little weekend. Go get tickets. Like I said, thebullwork.com events, the bulloark.com events. See y' all soon. I want to go back to the.

[Sam Stein]

Russia stuff you referenced earlier and the fact that maybe America's giving up on that.

[Tim Miller]

You wrote presciently, God, how long ago was it now? Two or three years ago, times a.

[Sam Stein]

Flat circle about the weakness of the.

[Tim Miller]

Russian military and kind of saw in.

[Sam Stein]

Advance that their invasion of Ukraine wasn't going to go as smoothly as other people thought that it was going to.

[Tim Miller]

So where we're at now is kind.

[Sam Stein]

Of this quasi stalemate on the front. And you have Putin sending missiles into Kyiv at civilian targets. What we have today is this so called coalition of the willing, which is basically the European countries and Australia and Canada, so not us. They're meeting to talk about what to do going forward, and they're kind of waiting to hear from Washington about what kind of role we're prepared to play.

[Tim Miller]

In the security guarantees. And I was reading the Kyiv Post.

[Sam Stein]

This morning, and they said that basically.

[Tim Miller]

Europe is struggling to kind of demonstrate.

[Sam Stein]

That they can do it alone. And some of the members there are concerned about their ability to support Ukraine without US involvement. What do you think about that and the state of play?

[Mark Hertling]

The Europeans are putting up a good front. They are trying hard to collaborate and make a difference, but truthfully, they don't have some of the things that we do, primarily the big air defense pieces of equipment, the intelligence capability, even the supply chain operations that we helped Ukraine establish at the beginning of the war to get not just equipment, but ammunition, supplies and everything else to the front line. The Europeans will be able to do some things, and I'm happy to see them all pulling together and doing those. But there is going to be a delta versus what they provide versus what Ukraine needs that could only be provided by the United States. So I'm concerned about it. But at the same time, what I tell you is Russia is in much worse shape than people believe. And I think, you know, Putin's trip to China this last week was an indicator of that. He desperately needs funding. His economy is in the toilet still and growing worse. He has not gained much ground, if any, in the territories he's looking to consume in Ukraine. And Ukraine is doing a pretty good job and continuing to hold them off. But they're also continuing to suffer civilian casualties from massive strikes by Russia. But I would say Russia is running out of ammunition. They are on a war footing. They are producing arms and weapons more than anything else in their economy that can't last forever. And I think Ukraine has more of a national and military will than Russia does. I continue to say we're at an inflection point, but we haven't quite crossed over that to the other side where Russia starts being defeated. And I'm now concerned that China and India are going to help.

[Tim Miller]

Right before that last phrase, I was going to say there was your hint.

[Sam Stein]

Of optimism 40 minutes in to this podcast and you had to caveat it.

[Tim Miller]

But I'm curious, just kind of putting your general hat on for a sec. If there were no political constraints, given.

[Sam Stein]

That weakness that you mentioned with Russia, like, what could Ukraine and the west be doing that we're not? That you would think might give them an even greater advantage in repelling this.

[Mark Hertling]

Right now there would be continued shipment of air defense systems. There would be a cell inside of Ukraine or even inside of Kyiv or even on the front lines of intelligence targeters that are contributing to what Ukraine's doing, although they're doing a pretty good job themselves. There would be a lot of people there from the United States watching what they're doing in terms of drone warfare. They are learning quite a few lessons that we could certainly take on. And you know, they, they could just give morale support right now. One of the things within Ukraine, and I talked to a buddy of mine in Ukraine the other day, Ukrainian, who I used to work with, and he said the biggest thing is morale, that they, they can't believe that after three years and them continuing to hold the fight that the United States is backing off of helping them. That's the part that they don't get. The weapons is, are one thing, you know, continuing the supply. But the main issue is are you really for democracy and sovereignty or are you not? Because that's what we thought you were for all this time. And that's the troublesome piece at the upper echelons of the Ukrainian military right now.

[Tim Miller]

The other conflict you mentioned, obviously Israel.

[Sam Stein]

Gaza, just kind of open ended. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on the current situation.

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah, it's a mess. It always has been a mess, but it's getting messier. They continue to fight against Hamas and there are still a lot of Hamas fighters left inside of the Gaza Strip. But they are doing it in such a way that they're completely ignoring any kind of political end state. And you know, I go back to Clausewitz and say war is politics by any other mean. There's got to be some kind of political end state and there doesn't seem to be one right now. And I see the Israeli government right now that's in power of completely ignoring the potential for saving lives inside of Gaza. They're not even considering it anymore. They just want to kill more terrorists. And there's a lot of non terrorists in that nation, certainly some people who, who support the terrorist. But they're human beings and you can't go into a war, any war at any time if you're not considering what's going to happen when the fighting stops. And Israel has refused to even take that under consideration.

[Sam Stein]

Two other topics of interest to you.

[Tim Miller]

One was the one you wrote. I'm warning you, neither of them are giving you opportunities for optimism. So we'll have three topics left, two not. And then you can dealer's choice at.

[Sam Stein]

The end, you can come up with something positive. All right.

[Tim Miller]

You wrote for us, which got a lot of attention, honoring Ashley Babbitt.

[Sam Stein]

Dishonors the military.

[Tim Miller]

I was happy you wrote for it.

[Sam Stein]

Because I actually missed the announcement of the story that the Air Force planned.

[Tim Miller]

To grant military funeral honors to Ashley.

[Sam Stein]

Babbitt, who, if people don't know, was the woman that was killed storming the Capitol on January 6th.

[Tim Miller]

Why did you feel the need to write this?

[Mark Hertling]

Because there's increasing divisiveness between the American population and the military. And it's because of the things we've already talked about, what's going on in the streets of our city, how they're being used by the President and the Secretary of Defense, how many. Most Americans don't understand what the military does. And the fact that, you know, it's interesting, the statistic. Only 1 less than 1% of people between the ages of 18 and 24 even think about joining the military. So you've got a nation that's already totally disconnected from the military. And then when you see the divisiveness continuing to be wedged on an issue like someone who has gone into Congress and attempted to overthrow our Constitution, and yet that person X number of years ago was actually in the Air Force. And when she was in the Air Force, when she first joined, and whenever she got a promotion, she raised her right hand and said, I, Ashley Babbitt, will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemy, foreign and domestic, and the rest of that beautiful oath that we all take multiple times during our career. And she was doing exactly the opposite. And what I wanted to remind people of is that there are those who take that oath who understand their role in government and how we support government, yeah, we can protest. We can peacefully protest, but that's not what January 6th was. And I think our current administration continues to try and whitewash that with their base saying it was no big deal. And what I'll tell you in terms of reaction to that article, Tim, it was probably the most. The largest reaction I got on social media. But then about day two or three, the trolls started coming in, and the trolls were all saying, oh, this was just a peaceful protest, and she was shot in the face. And the guy that ought to be taken care of is the person that shot him, and he should be in jail and convicted and given the death penalty. And there was such an opposite reaction that didn't address what is associated with taking the oath to defend the Constitution and make our nation grow and transform better every day, that I just thought I had to write something about that. So that's a long explanation.

[Tim Miller]

No, we appreciated it, and that's important. This goes back to why the military should be neutral. Like, kind of your point at the beginning.

[Sam Stein]

Why it's sort of, you know, sometimes, you know, folks like me are like.

[Tim Miller]

Why aren't the generals speaking out? It's like, well, you know, because you.

[Sam Stein]

Don'T want to get into these sort of situations where you have the Air Force making these decisions for someone that dishonored their oath for political reasons.

[Mark Hertling]

If I can say one more thing about the Babbitt thing, you know, if she had lived the rest of her life without any kind of criminal activity, and this was determined to be a criminal act, what she was trying to do, she would have gotten the military honors at her death. Okay. But what happens is there was a decision made by the Department of Defense, under Secretary Austin, of, hey, she was a criminal. She was shot trying to overthrow the Constitution. We are not giving her military honors. So that decision was overturned by the current administration, specifically Secretary Hegseth. And I don't understand the reason why.

[Tim Miller]

You'Re living in Florida still.

[Mark Hertling]

I am.

[Tim Miller]

You were VP at a hospital there. That was another job that you had.

[Mark Hertling]

I was a long time ago. Yeah. When I first retired.

[Tim Miller]

Well, then I have to ask you about something a little bit away from.

[Sam Stein]

What I usually ask about, which is healthcare stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Your state. They decided to end all vaccine mandates yesterday. Ron DeSantis decided to end all vaccine mandates.

[Sam Stein]

We had RFK testifying, the Hill as we're talking now, and obviously they're making a lot of changes at CDC or they're not listening to experts on vaccines.

[Tim Miller]

I was just curious what your thoughts.

[Sam Stein]

Were about that, based on your experience.

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah, I came out of the military and was recruited to work at a healthcare organization on something that I did. But the main thing I did was work with physicians because they asked me to put together a physician nurse leadership program, which we did. And it proved to be a culture changer at this hospital. But I was there during COVID and what I saw was the doctors and nurses who I had trained take charge of a crisis response cell and watching them work in a period of time that they were overwhelmed by sick people coming in, and what they did to make life better and take care of health was just miraculous to me. What you are going to see in our nation's hospitals. Because when Florida's hospital Primarily, but it's going to cross state lines, is without a vaccine mandate, you're going to see a lot of sick people and a lot of contagion. And it's going to not only affect the lives and deaths of our citizens, but it's going to affect what happens in already overcrowded emergency rooms and hospitals. And it's going to cause a lot of doctors. And like I hear from military guys, I hear from doctors because I still work with them at a different organization. They're saying that this is going to be a medical crisis for their profession of how do you treat the number of people that are going to be coming in with disease that say, oh gee, I wish I had taken the vaccination. But it's too late now because they want their freedoms. And they reminded me that individual freedoms are important, but what is also important is social responsibility, making sure your individual freedoms don't affect other people in your society. And that's what we're seeing probably going to happen in Florida.

[Tim Miller]

All right, here you go. The world's your oyster. Leave us with something uplifting. You got anything?

[Mark Hertling]

Yeah, I do, actually. The last couple of days is I've watched things that are not in my avenue, like the, the Epstein issues and some of the court hearings and now Harvard pushing back and, and the attorney generals that are going after different things in terms of states. I, I've shifted from almost purely negative to maybe a little bit of a rainbow of positivity that things are happening for the better and it's been created by individuals being affected. They're now seeing the craziness of the kinds of things that this administration are doing, whether they're legal or not. It's affecting lives. And I think that's when the American citizens are going to stand up and make a difference. I was in the Baltics this summer, Tim, and I was reminded in talking to some of the citizens of Lithuania, Estonia and latvia about their 6 million person hand holding that occurred across those three states. And I saw pictures of citizens holding hand to protest the Russians and what they were doing to those states. And it struck me that that was a pretty powerful movement when instead of people protesting in a town square that everyone was holding hands, saying, we're together in this, encountering the oppression that we're seeing. I'm thinking it's almost time that the citizens of our country start doing something like that because everyone is feeling the negative effect of what has been happening with our administration. That's my optimistic view of what may happen in the Next couple of months.

[Tim Miller]

Estonia. Estonia is always a place to look for optimism.

[Sam Stein]

There's small but brave in Estonia.

[Tim Miller]

Mark Hertling, I appreciate you coming, coming.

[Sam Stein]

Back as always, and I'm sure we'll be talking to you again soon. All right.

[Mark Hertling]

Hey, thanks, Tim. Appreciate it.

[Tim Miller]

All right, everybody else will be back here tomorrow for a weekend edition of the Bulwark Podcast. See y' all then. Peace.

[Guest Rapper]

If you know, you know this thing of oz oh, this thing of ours her fraternity of drug dealers ringing off I just happen to be alumni too legit they still looking at me with one eye the company I keep is not corporate enough Child rebel soldier, you ain't orphan enough A rapper turned trapper can't morph into us But a trapper turned rapper can morph in a puff dance contest for the smokers I predict snow al roa if you know you know I only ever looked up to SOA you all get a bird this.

[Sam Stein]

Oprah.

[Guest Rapper]

Bricklayers and ball shorts coaching from the side of the ball court if you know you know wanna stop like a Walmart we got the tennis balls for the wrong sport if you know, you know if you know about the carport the trapdoor supposed to be awkward if you know you know that's the reason we ball for circle round twice for the encore if you know you know you ever been hit with the water wave then had to wait till you walk away if you know you know when we all clicking like golden state and you and your team are the motorcade you know you know been granting wishes like a genie to bad holes in two piece bikinis I've been hiding where you can see me the sky box is right next to riri's solely responsible for showing rapper tie to stayin on the front lines when trappers started throwing bands. Where were you when big Meech brought the tigers in? Cause I was busy earning stripes like a tiger skin bricklayers and ball shorts coaching from the side of the ball court if you know you know one stop like a walmart we got the tennis balls for the wrong sport you know, you know if you know about the carport 3 trapdoor supposed to to be awkward if you know you know that's the reason we ball for circle round twice for the encore if you know you know.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering.

[Sam Stein]

And editing by Jason Brown.