The Bulwark Podcast: Mark Hertling on Putin's Weakness Release Date: December 18, 2024

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in an in-depth conversation with Mark Hertling, a retired lieutenant general and CNN military analyst. Hertling brings his extensive military experience and strategic insights to discuss pressing global and domestic threats, the state of U.S. military leadership, and the foundational values that underpin American society and its defense mechanisms.

Introduction to Mark Hertling

Timestamp: [00:25]

Tim Miller welcomes Mark Hertling, highlighting his distinguished career as a former commanding General of the U.S. Army in Europe, a veteran of both Iraq wars, and his role as a military analyst on CNN. Hertling's expertise sets the stage for a nuanced discussion on current geopolitical tensions and military preparedness.

Comprehensive Threat Assessment

Timestamp: [02:17]

Hertling outlines a broad spectrum of threats facing the United States and the international community:

• Middle East Instability: Despite apparent setbacks for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, Hertling warns of persistent dangers, including the Kurdish aspirations for autonomy across Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.

  “Even though it seems like Hamas is defeated or Hamas is destroyed, Hezbollah is partly defeated... That’s still a very dangerous area.” ([02:17])

• Ukraine and Russian Aggression: He emphasizes the critical need to prevent Putin from consolidating gains through the invasion of Ukraine, expressing fear that political placation could lead to further frozen conflicts.

  “We cannot allow Putin to get away with this invasion of a territory and a sovereignty that he's been doing for the last almost three years now. He has to be stopped.” ([02:54])

• North Korea's Role: The alliance between Russia and North Korea exacerbates threats, with North Korean soldiers being deployed to bolster Russian forces in Ukraine, though with limited effectiveness.

  “He may be getting missile parts for his intercontinental ballistic missiles in North Korea, but it’s not going to help him in terms of doing anything for that country.” ([04:15])

• China's Military Ambitions: Despite economic downturns, China's vast military remains a significant concern due to its expansive ambitions.

• Domestic and International Terrorism & Climate Change: Hertling cites terrorism and climate change as enduring threats, underscoring the Department of Defense's long-term focus on these issues.

  “It's a bad world out there. It's the worst that I've seen in my 40 years as a professional.” ([04:50])

Evaluating the Middle East Landscape

Timestamp: [05:55]

Tim Miller probes whether the recent developments in the Middle East signify a diminishing threat. Hertling remains cautious, highlighting the region's volatility:

“Whenever you think everything's about to go right, suddenly there's another car bomb somewhere and it causes more things to happen.” ([06:24])

Israel's Military Conduct and Ethical Dilemmas

Timestamp: [07:15]

The discussion shifts to Israel's military strategies in response to terrorism. Hertling acknowledges the complex moral landscape Israel navigates:

“Israel has executed the war, in my view, very well. There's been a lot of horrendous casualties and killings, but they had no other choice because they had a major terrorist organization three miles from their citizens.” ([07:57])

He critiques the broader political decisions leading to escalated conflicts, emphasizing the necessity of understanding both sides in such entrenched disputes.

Assessing Russia’s Military Weaknesses

Timestamp: [10:09]

Hertling offers a grim assessment of Russia’s military state:

“Putin is not the kind of guy you negotiate with... he has lied every single time.” ([11:52])

He details systemic issues within the Russian military, including corruption, poor leadership, and lack of trust between soldiers and commanders. Hertling recounts personal experiences from his visits to Russia, observing dysfunctional military practices firsthand.

Critique of Defense Department Appointments

Timestamp: [20:23]

The conversation pivots to the incoming Trump administration’s appointments, particularly Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense. Hertling questions Hegseth's qualifications, emphasizing the complexity and significance of the role:

“You have to have the ideas and the values of our great nation... if you don't have that, policies and strategies are going to be a mishmash.” ([24:22])

He argues for the necessity of leadership grounded in strategic understanding and aligned with national defense values, rather than political or ideological agendas.

The Importance of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in the Military

Timestamp: [20:30]

Hertling defends the role of DEI within the military, countering criticisms that it weakens military effectiveness:

“Every single research study that's conducted on diversity, equity, and inclusion, it tells you that it does nothing but make organizations better.” ([20:33])

He contends that a diverse and inclusive military fosters innovation and resilience, essential for modern warfare and national security.

Foundational American Values and Leadership

Timestamp: [35:15]

Drawing from his article on ethical education, Hertling underscores the seven core American values—loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage—that guide decision-making and leadership:

“When you have the values, those drive policies, and policies drive strategies.” ([35:15])

He expresses concern over political figures who may not embody these values, fearing a shift away from a principled approach to national defense and governance.

US-NATO Alliance and Global Security

Timestamp: [41:07]

Hertling emphasizes the indispensable role of the United States within NATO, warning against the consequences of withdrawal:

“The partnership and the trust and the alliance is just magical... if we pull out of NATO, we’re going to lose the intelligence sharing.” ([41:07])

He asserts that the strength of the Western alliance is intrinsically linked to continued U.S. commitment, which is crucial for countering threats like Russia.

Optimism for the Future: The Next Generation of Military Leaders

Timestamp: [31:47]

In a positive turn, Hertling highlights the dedication of young military officers who prioritize service over partisan conflicts:

“They're looking at serving in uniform and being proud of it. That's what I really liked about the military.” ([31:47])

He finds hope in their focus on upholding values and their commitment to defending the Constitution, contrasting with the divisiveness observed at higher levels of government.

Conclusion: Upholding Values Amidst Challenges

Timestamp: [37:55]

Hertling reiterates the importance of maintaining American values to navigate future challenges, expressing unwavering dedication to fostering an organization grounded in integrity and respect.

“I truly believe that because we are a nation of values and ideas, that those drive policies and policies drive strategies.” ([37:55])

He remains optimistic that adherence to foundational values will guide the nation through turbulent times, ensuring resilience and unity.

Final Thoughts and Farewell

Timestamp: [45:10]

Tim Miller and Mark Hertling conclude the episode with personal anecdotes, reinforcing the camaraderie and mutual respect between the host and guest. Their informal exchange underscores the human element behind strategic discussions, leaving listeners with a sense of optimism grounded in shared values and steadfast leadership.

Key Takeaways:

• Russia's Military Decline: Mark Hertling provides a detailed analysis of Russia's weakened military state, attributing it to corruption, poor leadership, and unsustainable economic policies under Putin's regime.

• Strategic Importance of NATO: The U.S. plays a crucial role in maintaining NATO's effectiveness, and withdrawal could severely undermine global security alliances.

• Value-Based Leadership: Upholding American values—loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage—is essential for effective leadership and national cohesion.

• Defense Appointments: The selection of key national security positions requires individuals with substantial experience and strategic insight, rather than political or ideological affiliations.

• Optimism in the Military's Future: Despite overarching challenges, the dedication and integrity of the new generation of military officers provide hope for continued resilience and adaptability.

This episode serves as a timely and insightful examination of contemporary security challenges, emphasizing the need for principled leadership and strategic alliances to safeguard national and global stability.