The Bulwark Podcast | December 9, 2025

“Mark Hertling: Trump (Still) Hates Europe”

Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Mark Hertling, Bulwark Military Analyst & Retired Commanding General, U.S. Army Europe

Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging conversation between host Tim Miller and retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, now the Bulwark’s military analyst, focused on the ongoing deterioration of America’s relationship with European allies under Donald Trump’s second administration. The conversation covers Trump’s new National Security Strategy, reactions in Europe, the ongoing tensions and potential fallout for NATO, and timely updates on Ukraine—with commentary on the implications for U.S. defense leadership and responses to recent military actions in Venezuela.

Key Discussion Points

Trump’s View of Europe and the National Security Strategy (03:00–13:50)

• Trump’s Politico Interview: Miller cites Trump slamming European nations as "decaying" and "weak" (03:00). Trump questions the value of U.S. alliances with Europe.
• Hertling’s Assessment:
  • Trump’s rhetoric is “very insulting” to Europeans; reminiscent of the first Trump term.
  • Trump treats Europe (and the world) like mere pawns for advancing U.S. interests without respect for allies’ own priorities:

    “He sees Europe as he sees the rest of the world, as pawns of the United States.” (04:38, Hertling)

• Significance of the National Security Strategy:
  • It’s a capstone foundational document, guiding subsequent defense, diplomatic, and military strategies.
  • Hertling explains, “It provides nesting for other strategies…” and “There’s a bevy of actions that come out of the strategy.” (06:00–07:30)
  • He criticizes Trump’s version for being transactional, focused on "ends and means" but missing the practical “ways”:

    “He forgot the middle thing, which a strategy also has to do—and that’s the ways.” (08:17, Hertling)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Racist Overtones & America First:
  • The new strategy’s section on Europe “was just kind of a hand-wave of how bad they were…There were some racist overtones in there.” (10:38, Hertling)
• Lack of Praise for Alliances:
  • “One sentence in the entire document about building allies and using the strength of alliances. Everything is about what America will do and what America wants.” (11:01, Hertling)
• On Allies' Responses:
  • European officials (“particularly the Baltics and Nordics”) are “angry.” In private, “after a three-beer conversation,” their frustration with U.S. policy is explicit. Still, Hertling believes alliances are resilient and ultimately pragmatic:

    “I think the alliances will come back together because of emerging threats… We need them more than they need us.” (13:23, Hertling)

Ukraine: Frontline and Ally Fractures (16:05–22:44)

• Political and Battlefield Situation:
  • Ukraine is “a little bit shaky,” with battlefield setbacks and political vulnerability for Zelensky due to corruption issues.
  • Hertling contextualizes Ukrainian corruption as a long-running post-Soviet problem—not unique and not an excuse to abandon the country:

    “Every government’s got corruption if it allows it. So I’m not excusing it, but it happens.” (17:24, Hertling)

• Zelensky’s Dilemma:
  • Pressure and inconsistent U.S. support force Zelensky to lean more on Europe.
  • U.S. negotiating team is “crazy,” ineffective, and sometimes corrupt—naming Kushner and Witkoff as especially problematic.

    “Sweet Jesus, you’ve got Witkoff and Kushner and others who are working land deals as opposed to true peace treaties…” (19:35, Hertling)

• Putin’s Goals:
  • Putin’s underlying strategy was to break Ukraine and NATO; so far, “the only one he succeeded on is that last one. Ukraine continues to stay strong, whereas we’re the one that’s kind of faltering.” (20:24, Hertling)

Defense Leadership and Civil-Military Relations (25:24–29:45)

• Current Pentagon Dynamics:
  • Reports of infighting within the Department of Defense (DoD), with rumors of Army Secretary Driscoll attempting to push out Defense Secretary Hegseth.
• Unusual Roles and Experience Gaps:
  • Driscoll’s trip to Ukraine and Geneva is “very unusual…he’s not all that involved in diplomatic affairs or defense with allied nations.” (26:40, Hertling)
  • Driscoll, Hegseth both lack deep experience; by contrast, prior Defense Secretaries like Mattis or Austin brought expertise that Trump resisted:

    “When you put someone in that position, they need to be separated from the demands of the military, but at the same time understanding what the military does.…it’s got to be run as a business, too.” (29:00, Hertling)

U.S. Actions in Venezuela & Latin America (31:47–49:20)

• Controversial Boat Strikes:

  • Recent U.S. strikes on Venezuelan drug boats were briefed to Congress, with split partisan reactions.
  • Sen. Tom Cotton’s public explanation—that survivors of the boat strike were going to continue their mission—Hertling calls “so one-sided and so lacking in common sense.”

    “If you’re with 11 of your buddies and you’ve just been blown up and nine…are killed, your boat’s capsized…, you’re not going to be thinking about continuing the mission.” (32:48, Hertling)

  • Personal War Story: Hertling shares, with wry humor, an account of surviving an IED blast in Iraq, highlighting the disorientation survivors often feel (33:23).

• Why Use Drones, Not Interdiction?

  • Miller asks why special operators were sent when Coast Guard interdiction and intelligence-gathering is standard; Hertling agrees, “It doesn’t make any sense…other than performative politics.” (36:20, Hertling)
  • The administration is promoting the strikes as tough action—releasing videos for political effect but withholding evidence of the most controversial attack.

• Southcom Leadership Conflict:

  • Admiral Halsey, the Black commander of U.S. Southern Command, was pushed out after objecting to Venezuela operations—a move revealed to be both racially and politically charged (39:09).

    “If you retire with less than a year in a new position, you’re not going to retire as a four-star…It’s just interesting that he was asked, linked to disagreements with the operations in Southern Command.” (40:08, Hertling)

• Legal/Military Advice and Orders:

  • Miller and Hertling discuss the challenges for commanders in refusing illegal orders and the moral/strategic limits of military obedience:

    “You fight, if you will, for your point of view, but then when the civilian decision maker says, ‘No, here’s what we’re going to do,’ you salute…unless it’s unlawful or illegal.” (42:17, Hertling)

Broader Strategic Concerns: War Plans and Implications for Troops (46:35–52:33)

• Expansion of the War:
  • Trump hints at expanding anti-drug operations to Colombia and Mexico as part of a vague “war, not war.”
  • Hertling cautions that “it would be, in my view, a huge mistake to go into Venezuela. It’s a huge country. It’s bigger than Ukraine…when you conduct regime change, it’s a whole lot messier than people think.” (48:00-49:35, Hertling)
• Military Morale:
  • Hertling shares Pentagon scuttlebutt from the Iraq invasion era: many military planners thought it was a grave error, yet once the civilian decision was made, they implemented orders as best they could.

    “That’s why it’s so important to not have people in elected positions that do crazy stuff with the military and they think it through.” (51:18, Hertling)

Remembering Service and Sacrifice (52:33–55:23)

• Honoring a Fallen Soldier:
  • Hertling reflects on the loss of West Virginia National Guard member Sarah Beckstrom, killed in D.C., and the everyday sacrifices made by young servicemembers.

    “When you have people who raise their hand and say they’re going to support and defend the Constitution…Even if you don’t know the soldiers that were killed…you have a connection to them.” (53:04, Hertling)

  • Shares the ritual of keeping photos of fallen soldiers on his desk, emphasizing respect and loyalty owed to their sacrifice.

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Trump’s Interview & Europe Insults: 03:00–05:30
• National Security Strategy’s Role: 05:52–09:08
• America First & Racist Overtones: 10:00–11:26
• Allies' Anger & Alliance Prognosis: 11:45–13:23
• Ukraine Analysis & U.S. Fractures: 16:05–22:44
• Pentagon Leadership, Driscoll & Hegseth: 25:24–29:45
• Venezuela ‘Restrike’, Congressional Briefing: 31:47–37:56
• Southcom, Admiral Halsey Pushed Out: 39:09–41:57
• Civil-Military Order Limits: 42:02–44:33
• Venezuela Escalation, War Plans: 46:35–49:50
• Military Morale & Experience: 50:32–52:33
• Remembering Specialist Beckstrom: 52:33–55:23

Tone and Humor

The conversation remains sharp, frank, and respectful, blending military realism, policy criticism, and occasional dry wit. Miller and Hertling are unsparing in their assessment of Trump-era defense leadership and the risks posed to U.S. alliances. Hertling’s seasoned outlook anchors the critique, bringing gravitas, real-word anecdotes, and empathy—especially when discussing the impacts on troops and their families.

Summary

Mark Hertling’s expert insight underscores the dangers of transactional foreign policy, the perils of undermining European alliances, the complexities and corruption struggles inherent in Ukraine, and the risks of reckless military adventures in Latin America. With both urgency and humanity, the episode warns that leadership at the highest levels—civilian and military—must be informed, principled, and attuned to the real costs of war.