The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Marty Baron: Behind the Washington Post’s Demise

Date: February 5, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Marty Baron, former Executive Editor, the Washington Post; Author of "Collision of Power: Trump, Bezos, and the Washington Post"

Overview

In this incisive interview, Tim Miller sits down with Marty Baron, former executive editor of The Washington Post, to discuss the crisis engulfing the storied newspaper. The conversation centers on recent cuts, the decline in vision at the Post under Jeff Bezos, increased governmental and business pressures during Trump’s second term, and the chilling implications for American journalism and democracy. Baron offers a sharp, candid look back at his tenure at the Post, Bezos’s shifting priorities, and the deadly ills threatening robust, independent reporting.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Washington Post’s Heritage and Recent Decline

• Baron's opening perspective on the layoff crisis:
  • The Post is "coming up on their 150th anniversary" and has a deep legacy of ambitious journalism, especially governmental accountability.
  • Staff cuts have left the newsroom smaller than when Bezos first bought it in 2013, marking a significant retreat from its mission.
  • Quote: “What I think is missing now is some clear contemporary vision for what the Post should be. They’re talking about a reset. It looks more like a retreat to me.” (04:15)
  • Baron worries about a diminished capacity to provide reasons for readers to turn to the Post.

2. Bezos’s Early Ownership: Optimism and Independence

• Initial optimism with Bezos (2013–2020):
  • "He wanted us to set a more ambitious course...He asked us to be national and international...to be fully digital" (06:15).
  • Significant investment, rapid staffing growth (+500), and six straight years of profitability followed.
  • Bezos defended the Post from Trump’s attacks and championed press independence, including resisting pressure over Amazon’s federal contracts.
  • Quote: “He never interfered in our news coverage. He didn’t. Not even about Amazon.” (09:04)

3. Trump Era, ‘Democracy Dies in Darkness’, and Editorial Challenge

• Origin of the motto, and its resonance:

  • The now-famous phrase was Bezos’s idea (“He didn’t like to call it a motto. He called it a mission statement.”) (13:03)
  • It was intended to signify a global commitment to adversarial journalism, not as a slight against Trump, though that’s how it’s been read.
  • Memorable quip: “You don’t know many marketing people who say you should include death and darkness in your motto...We tried light, but it sounded too self-adulatory or cult-like actually.” (13:03)
  • The motto gained global recognition and has been widely imitated or mocked.

• Political pressures:

  • Jared Kushner personally lobbied for Baron’s firing after Russia-related reporting. Baron stands by the Post’s coverage:
  • Quote: “I’m very proud of it…Trump is suing the Pulitzer board for that coverage, but the reality is...Russians did intervene in that election.” (15:23)

4. Post-Trump: Business Failures and Strategic Drift

• Failed adaptation:

  • The Post was profitable in the Trump era, “demonstrated how to be profitable” (19:04).
  • Unlike The New York Times, which diversified (cooking apps, games, The Athletic), the Post failed to meaningfully innovate.
  • Declining search traffic (esp. from Google), social media, and the impact of AI were not robustly addressed.
  • Quote: “They keep talking about resets, they keep talking about innovation. And I want to see, well, okay, show me your innovation. And I don’t see much happening.” (32:00)

• Editorial shift – chasing a non-existent audience?:

  • Matt Murray’s memo critiqued the Post for writing for “one slice of the audience,” implying a pivot to appease Trump-friendly demographics.

  • Baron: “For a news organization with the history and heritage of the Washington Post, its aligned should be to the facts, wherever they lead… It’s not a matter of using a political calculus.” (24:16)

  • Tim Miller’s skepticism: “Where is the audience for hard news, MAGA hard news written— I don’t see it.” (25:48)

  • Baron sees danger in abandoning fact-based reporting for political positioning.

5. Bezos’s Priorities: Corporate Interests vs. Press Freedom

• Changing Bezos:

  • Baron suggests Bezos’s posturing has shifted as Blue Origin and Amazon seek massive federal contracts under Trump.
  • Quote: “I’m concerned that he’s prioritizing these other business interests over the Post...it’s made the Post’s financial predicament far worse than it needed to be.” (12:55)

• Conflict of interest exposed:

  • Citing a recent “nauseating” scene of Bezos welcoming Secretary of War Pete Hegseth to Blue Origin after the Pentagon expelled Post reporters:
  • Quote: “I doubt that Bezos spent a second taking Hegseth aside and saying, ‘That was wrong for you to do that’...I found it nauseating and very, very disturbing.” (34:06)

6. Eco-systemic Threats: Power, Leverage, and Capitulation

• Trump’s second term brings more credible threats:

  • Federal government contracts have become central leverage; law firms, universities, media all capitulate.
  • Fear among titans like Bezos and Disney of losing contracts and falling behind rivals (Musk, Ellison).
  • Quote: “So much of the economy, so much of our society is dependent upon the federal government...he’s [Trump] not hesitant to use that as leverage.” (39:19)

• Baron’s tough love on wealth and cowardice:

  • Tim: “You’re turning me into Bernie Sanders, Marty. If $260 billion isn’t enough…and so I’ve got to buckle to Donald Trump…” (43:55)
  • Baron: “I think it’s enough. But I’m saying that they don’t see it that way.” (44:13)

7. Where Do We Go from Here? Baron's Prescriptions

• Could the Post survive as a nonprofit?

  • Baron’s advice: Bezos should endow a billion-dollar nonprofit Post, governed by an independent board; remain committed to core values, embrace digital media and innovation. (46:25)
  • Quote: “I would love to see something like that...but they still need to be true to their core principles. You cannot give up your core principles and be successful.” (47:46)

• On metrics vs. mission:

  • Both agree that chasing clickbait and metrics is a dead end for serious journalism.
  • Baron: “You have to have a soul. You have to know what your soul is. You have to be faithful to your purpose in life. And once you abandon that, people know that you’ve done that and they abandon you.” (48:32)

• On stories not getting enough coverage:

  • Baron: “The corruption in this administration deserves a lot more attention than it’s received...A lot of people in this administration are seeing this as an opportunity to profit, and the First Family is right at the center of that.” (49:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Baron on the layoffs and loss of mission:

  • “They’re talking about a reset. It looks more like a retreat to me.” (04:15)

• On why Bezos changed:

  • “I’m concerned that he’s prioritizing these other business interests over the Post...and that’s what I’m worried about.” (12:55)

• On Jeff Bezos’s motives:

  • “I doubt that Bezos spent a second taking Hegseth aside and saying, you know, that was wrong...I found it nauseating to watch that and very, very disturbing.” (34:06)

• On media’s temptation for metrical and political shortcuts:

  • “Once you abandon [your soul and purpose], people know that you’ve done that and they abandon you.” (48:32)

• Baron’s prescription:

  • “I’d like to see them, I’d like to see it put into a nonprofit. I’d like to see Bezos say, okay, I’m giving you a billion dollars...You have capital to experiment and innovate. I think they would [win back subscribers].” (46:25)

Important Timestamps

• 04:15 — Baron on the Post’s diminished vision and the implications
• 06:15-10:56 — The Bezos Years, newsroom independence, and expansion
• 13:03 — The birth of “Democracy Dies in Darkness”
• 15:21 — Russia coverage, Kushner’s pressure, and Baron’s pride
• 19:04 — Discussion of profitability, missed strategic innovation
• 24:16 — Baron rebuffs political calculus; facts must come first
• 34:06 — Bezos/Blue Origin meets Trump’s Pentagon; the “nauseating” alliance
• 39:19 — Trump’s economic leverage, Bezos’s fear, competition from Ellison/Musk
• 46:25 — Baron's nonprofit solution and future vision for the Post
• 49:37 — Last word on corruption in the current administration needing more coverage

Tone & Takeaways

Baron is candid, reflective, but deeply troubled by the events at the Post and the wider trend of media capitulation under autocratic pressure. Miller, irreverent and incisive, provides sharp contrast and prods Baron on both business and moral foundations. The discussion underscores the gravity of the crisis facing American journalism, the corrosive effect of big-money influence, and the enduring—and endangered—importance of principled, independent reporting.

For listeners and non-listeners alike, this episode is a sobering, illuminating look at what happens when press power, government power, and private wealth collide.