Summary of "Matt Yglesias and Tyler Austin Harper: Popularism v Populism" – The Bulwark Podcast

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Bulwark Podcast
• Host: Tim Miller
• Guests: Matt Yglesias and Tyler Austin Harper
• Episode Title: Matt Yglesias and Tyler Austin Harper: Popularism v Populism
• Release Date: December 12, 2024
• Description: Tim Miller hosts Matt Yglesias, author of the Slow Boring newsletter, and Tyler Austin Harper, professor and contributing writer at The Atlantic, to discuss the dynamics between popularism and populism within the Democratic Party, analyzing past electoral losses and strategies for future success.

Introduction and Context (00:44 - 05:07)

Tim Miller opens the episode by addressing the recent resignation of Chris Wray, the FBI Director, labeling it as "a pre surrender" (00:44). He discusses the political implications of Wray stepping down, especially in the context of Donald Trump's presidency and the potential appointment of Cash Patel as the new FBI Director. Miller highlights concerns about Patel's qualifications and the broader impact on the FBI's impartiality.

Tim Miller:
"If we weren't also numb, this would be a five alarm fire and shocking to think that the incoming president would push out an FBI director over personal grievance with them rather than over any performance issue or scandal or anything such as that." (00:44)

He introduces the episode's guests, Matt Yglesias and Tyler Austin Harper, noting their previous debate on Twitter regarding Democratic strategies. Miller expresses respect for both guests' viewpoints and emphasizes the importance of authentic discourse to uncover the truth.

Defining Popularism vs. Populism (05:07 - 17:39)

Matt Yglesias' Perspective

Matt Yglesias argues that Democrats failed to emulate the successful moderation seen in Obama and Clinton's campaigns. He suggests that post-2012, Democrats shifted left on issues like guns, immigration, and crime, which alienated independent and moderate voters.

Matt Yglesias:
"If Democrats did what Chris Murphy says they should do, it would probably work. But also all of what's doing the work, it seemed to me, was the moderating on cultural issues." (08:49)

He expresses concern that focusing solely on economic issues like NAFTA or opioid crises without addressing core cultural conflicts leads to a fragmented coalition.

Tyler Austin Harper's Perspective

Tyler Austin Harper emphasizes traditional economic populism, pointing to policy failures under Clinton and Obama, such as deindustrialization and the opioid crisis. He distinguishes between the charismatic appeal of Obama and Clinton and the administrative legacies that contributed to public discontent.

Tyler Austin Harper:
"I think, to that extent, I agree with Matt that we should run politicians who are popular and who people like." (07:31)

Harper argues for separating the personal appeal of political figures from their policy legacies, advocating for a focus on substantive economic issues over cultural moderations.

Critique of Biden's Presidency (17:39 - 30:28)

Age and Communication Issues

Harper points out that Biden's age and perceived competence issues hindered his ability to communicate effectively, which negatively impacted his campaign.

Tyler Austin Harper:
"Biden had so many things not working in his favor. Core among them was his age, which isn't just related to how the public perceived his competence, but also just his basic ability to communicate, craft a story, push a message." (10:43)

Economic and Foreign Policy Challenges

Both guests discuss the lack of a coherent economic narrative from the Biden administration. Harper criticizes the administration's approach to climate change and foreign policy, noting that Democrats lacked compelling messaging to connect these policies with voters' immediate concerns.

Matt Yglesias:
"I think the Biden model would have worked. I don't know. What do you think?" (10:29)

Tyler Austin Harper:
"There was no economic narrative coming out of the Biden administration. And so this is where again, I think it's really important to separate policy questions from the question of what the Democratic Party is selling." (11:34)

Cultural Issues vs. Economic Populism (30:28 - 49:28)

Climate Change and Immigration

Harper emphasizes the importance of framing climate change in relatable terms, such as its impact on insurance costs and national security, rather than abstract concepts. He also critiques the Democrats' handling of immigration, suggesting that aligning closely with figures like Liz Cheney reinforced a disconnect with working-class voters.

Tyler Austin Harper:
"We have obligations sometimes greater than ourselves, and I think that Chris Wray had an obligation to stay in this job until Donald Trump forced him out." (05:07)

Messaging and Narrative Construction

Both guests agree that Democrats have struggled with effective storytelling around their policies. Yglesias argues that policies need to be communicated in ways that resonate with the broad electorate, avoiding niche or overly complex explanations.

Matt Yglesias:
"It’s just a little bit fantastical to think that talking about trade deals that happened 30 years ago or an opioids problem, which is already somewhat in decline, that’s what Joe Biden tried to do." (09:48)

Tyler Austin Harper:
"We need to have a coalition of high minded people who care about this kind of thing, and it's easy to dismiss that because after you lose, you can be like, we just need to focus on helping people forget about the issues." (12:12)

Policy Discussions: Student Loans and Healthcare (49:28 - 64:34)

Student Loan Reform vs. Medical Debt Relief

Miller raises the question of whether focusing on populist policies like student loan reform would have been more effective for Democrats. Yglesias critiques the implementation, arguing that the selective approach lacked accountability and failed to present a unified populist message.

Matt Yglesias:
"The symbolism, you know, I think clearly bad. But what really got me about it was the failed promise on top of all those things." (59:36)

Harper acknowledges the public support for student loan relief but argues that better messaging could have broadened its appeal.

Tyler Austin Harper:
"A majority of the public still supported it. But I completely agree [...] they need to hold universities accountable." (63:21)

Healthcare Policies

The discussion touches on the impact of healthcare reforms and the importance of targeting policies that resonate directly with working-class voters.

Tyler Austin Harper:
"Killing unarmed people is bad, whether it's in foreign countries or here." (52:00)

Candidate Strategies and Future Outlook (64:34 - 72:05)

Identifying Model Candidates

Harper and Yglesias discuss potential candidates who embody the balance between economic populism and cultural inclusivity. They mention Senator Jared Golden and Ruben Gallego as examples of effective communicators who connect with working-class voters while addressing broader coalition needs.

Tyler Austin Harper:
"Jared Golden is good [...] someone who can weld economic populism to social values pluralism is what is going to win elections." (65:07)

Matt Yglesias:
"Marie Glusenkamp Perez is a great example. She shows independent-mindedness and resilience." (67:28)

Building a Broad Coalition

Both guests emphasize the necessity for Democrats to build a diverse coalition that can navigate and reconcile differing viewpoints on both economic and cultural issues.

Matt Yglesias:
"You have to stand up for the people who do it and not say, but you didn't do it in the exact right way." (67:43)

Tyler Austin Harper:
"We need to figure out a way to say, look, we're on this tent. Sometimes these people are gonna get this, sometimes you're gonna get that." (58:33)

Concluding Remarks (72:02 - End)

Tim Miller wraps up the episode by thanking his guests and summarizing the key takeaways. He encourages listeners to check out Matt's Slow Boring newsletter and Tyler's article at The Atlantic for deeper insights. The discussion concludes with a promise to revisit topics like NAFTA in future episodes.

Tim Miller:
"Matt wrote in his slow, boring newsletter, which is not boring, a common sense Democrat manifesto. You can read more there. Tyler just wrote, is this how Democrats win back the Working Class? For the Atlantic. Go check that out." (69:00)

Notable Quotes

• Tim Miller:
  "If we weren't also numb, this would be a five alarm fire..." (00:44)

• Matt Yglesias:
  "If Democrats did what Chris Murphy says they should do, it would probably work." (08:49)

• Tyler Austin Harper:
  "Biden had so many things not working in his favor. Core among them was his age." (10:43)

• Tyler Austin Harper:
  "Climate change is something I care about. I am literally an expert on human extinction." (26:06)

• Matt Yglesias:
  "It's a challenge to think that maybe medical debt relief would have been better." (58:35)

Final Thoughts

The episode provides a thorough exploration of the internal debates within the Democratic Party regarding strategic focus on cultural versus economic issues. Matt Yglesias and Tyler Austin Harper offer contrasting yet complementary perspectives on how the party can rebuild its coalition and address the root causes of electoral losses. The discussion underscores the importance of effective messaging, authentic leadership, and cohesive policy strategies to navigate the complex landscape of contemporary American politics.