The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Release Date: January 16, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a comprehensive discussion with guest Melissa Murray, a law professor at NYU, co-host of Strict Scrutiny, and occasional contributor on MSNBC. The conversation delves into the recent nomination of Pam Bondi as Attorney General, implications for the Department of Justice (DOJ), concerns surrounding key judicial appointments, and broader political dynamics affecting American democracy.

Pam Bondi's Nomination as Attorney General

Tim Miller opens the discussion by addressing Pam Bondi's nomination:

"Unless Pam Bondi did something extreme like, you know, literally started doing cartwheels on the table, she's going to be the next Attorney General."
[00:48] Melissa Murray

Melissa Murray analyzes Bondi's confirmation hearing, highlighting her evasiveness and lack of managerial experience necessary for leading the complex DOJ:

"The mere fact that Pam Bondi isn't a frat paddle turned into a real live boy makes her, in this context, a credible candidate to be Attorney General."
[00:48] Melissa Murray

She emphasizes the importance of managerial expertise in the role:

"You actually have to be pretty experienced as a manager. And I think that might actually have come up if this was a more normal confirmation process, but it isn't, and it isn't going to be."
[01:55] Melissa Murray

Challenges in Bondi's Confirmation Hearing

The conversation shifts to Bondi's responses during her confirmation hearing, where she avoided addressing crucial hypotheticals about presidential influence:

"I thought her responses would have been great if she had been nominated to the Supreme Court because she talked like I refused to answer hypotheticals."
[04:39] Melissa Murray

Miller expresses frustration over Bondi's refusal to acknowledge the premise of questions regarding presidential immunity and DOJ's independence:

"Why would we assume that Trump might pressure me to do something illegal?"
[07:04] Tim Miller

Murray critiques the lack of incisive questioning from Democratic senators:

"There were questions that I wish had been asked, there were follow ups that I wish the Democrats had asked instead of just, you know, sort of playing on her turf."
[09:00] Melissa Murray

Concerns Over DOJ Leadership and Appointments

Melissa Murray raises red flags about the potential transformation of the DOJ into President Trump's personal legal apparatus, citing appointments like Todd Blanche and John Sauer:

"Donald Trump has already nominated Todd Blanche to be the Deputy Attorney General. John Sauer has been nominated to be the Solicitor General."
[12:14] Melissa Murray

She warns of the DOJ becoming a "personal prosecution arm," undermining its role as an independent entity:

"That suggests that maybe DOJ is being transformed into the president's private law firm, or worse, the president's personal prosecution arm."
[12:12] Melissa Murray

John Sauer as Solicitor General: A Risky Appointment

The discussion turns to John Sauer's recent legal actions, particularly his amicus brief in the TikTok case, which Murray criticizes for lacking constitutional grounding:

"The brief basically says what the court should do is pause this law, pause the effective date of this law to allow Donald Trump to step in because he is a, quote, unquote, consummate dealmaker."
[16:16] Melissa Murray

Murray underscores the alarming nature of Sauer's approach, suggesting it deviates from traditional constitutional principles:

"It's so divorced from constitutional reality. It's so wild."
[16:16] Melissa Murray

She elaborates on the Solicitor General's pivotal role in defending federal laws before the Supreme Court, expressing concern over Sauer's suitability:

"This brief was not the best example of advocacy, certainly not written advocacy."
[18:35] Melissa Murray

North Carolina Supreme Court Election Dispute

Tim Miller brings up the contentious North Carolina Supreme Court election, where Democrat Allison Riggs narrowly won over Republican Jefferson Griffin amid allegations of vote tampering:

"Allison Riggs, it's going to be harder for the state high court to continue to ratify Republican policy preferences in the state, in state court challenges."
[28:03] Melissa Murray

Murray criticizes Griffin's attempt to invalidate 60,000 votes, highlighting its anti-democratic implications:

"This is truly anti Democratic behavior, you know, silencing a group of individuals throwing out their votes."
[28:23] Melissa Murray

She emphasizes the significant impact of state-level Supreme Courts on maintaining or undermining democratic processes:

"The court's really important, not just the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Courts at the state level."
[28:23] Melissa Murray

Biden's Farewell Address and Its Implications

The podcast touches on President Biden's farewell address, with guest John Avlon offering a historical perspective:

"Biden gave a very full throated warning about the rise of a new oligarchy rooted in technology that is undermining our ability to reason together as a democracy."
[44:16] John Avlon

Avlon compares Biden's address to those of past presidents, noting its focus on systemic threats rather than mere achievements:

"He did not pull punches. It was stark, especially by any historical standard."
[44:16] John Avlon

Miller reflects on the relevance of the speech in light of recent developments involving tech oligarchs and their influence:

"The other thing is just that this whole conversation afterwards is like the manosphere. And was she tough enough and all this?"
[32:56] Tim Miller

Encouraging Civic Participation and New Podcast Announcement

John Avlon discusses the importance of citizens engaging in politics, especially in challenging times:

"Democrats need to focus on building bridges. I've always believed deeply in the building coalition between the center right and the center left, reaching out to moderates, independents."
[49:42] John Avlon

He introduces his new podcast, How to Fix It, aimed at fostering solution-oriented discussions beyond partisan debates:

"The core idea... is we need to talk more about solutions and not just fixate on problems."
[53:33] John Avlon

Avlon emphasizes the podcast's goal to empower listeners by discussing actionable solutions with bipartisan support:

"If we talk to issue experts about, hey, we can solve this together, not being pie in the sky, that it's going to be easy, but there are areas that can find support from the center right and center left together."
[53:33] John Avlon

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with affirmations of mutual respect and enthusiasm for continued collaboration. Tim Miller encourages listeners to engage with both The Bulwark Podcast and the new How to Fix It podcast, underscoring the importance of informed and active participation in safeguarding democracy.

Key Takeaways

• DOJ Leadership Concerns: Pam Bondi's nomination raises questions about her managerial capabilities and independence from presidential influence.

• Solicitor General Appointments: John Sauer's actions indicate potential deviations from constitutional norms, posing risks to the DOJ's integrity.

• State Supreme Court Elections: Disputes like the North Carolina case highlight ongoing threats to democratic processes at the state level.

• Biden's Farewell Address: Emphasizes systemic threats from technological oligarchies and calls for unified democratic resilience.

• Civic Engagement: Encouraging active participation and solution-oriented discourse as vital for democratic health.

Notable Quotes:

• "Pam Bondi is our next attorney general. And that raises some questions, and we should talk about those."
  [01:55] Melissa Murray

• "This is about fealty. This is about walking in lockstep."
  [42:20] John Avlon

• "If Democrats aren't seen as the party reform, they're gonna keep getting their ass handed them, I'm afraid."
  [51:14] John Avlon

This summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights shared by Melissa Murray and John Avlon on the January 16, 2025 episode of The Bulwark Podcast, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the topics covered.