The Bulwark Podcast — "Michael Weiss and Karine Jean-Pierre: Low Energy Trump"

Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Michael Weiss, Karine Jean-Pierre

Overview

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast features two major segments:

1. A wide-ranging conversation with Michael Weiss, focusing on the latest in U.S. foreign policy, particularly Trump's actions on Ukraine and Russia, Middle East developments, and some domestic political theatrics.
2. An interview with former Biden White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre about her new book, the state of the Democratic Party post-2024, and her journey to independence from party labels.

Both conversations are frank, insightful, and critical of the current political moment, with equal parts gallows humor and earnest advocacy for democratic values.

Segment 1: Michael Weiss — "Low Energy Trump" and World Affairs

(00:13 – 42:21)

Key Discussion Points

Government Shutdown & White House Symbolism

• Both note the ominous symbolism of rebuilding projects at the White House during the government shutdown.
• Michael Weiss (01:13): "Just a little bit on the nose for symbolism."

State of Play in Ukraine and Trump’s Schizophrenic Diplomacy

• Trump’s erratic approach: Initially dangles Tomahawks to Ukraine, backtracks after Putin’s intervention.
• Weiss offers a detailed breakdown of how misinformation and back-channel envoys (notably real estate developer Steve Witkoff) are obscuring real policy, pressuring Ukraine to cede the Donbas region, and generally producing chaos over substance.
• Michael Weiss (03:09): “This carousel of hyped and also kind of terrifying nonsense now seems to be slowing down. ...False expectations of some dramatic Trump pivot to Ukraine... turned out to be dashed and overly optimistic.”
• Ukraine, Europe, and the U.S. remain committed to a ceasefire; Russia refuses.

How Russian Propaganda Shapes Trump

• Trump is highly susceptible to direct influence from Putin, often echoing Russian talking points post-call.
• Michael Weiss (13:17): “He has long had a deep abiding affinity for Putin. ...Putin is able to somehow have this mesmeric hold over him and tell him, even when Trump has lately been saying, both publicly and privately, the opposite of what Putin tells him. Whatever Putin tells him, he regurgitates.”
• The notion of "low energy Trump": Despite past bluster, Trump seems increasingly disengaged, easily rebuffed (notably by Zelensky in the Donbas dispute), and performing without his previous zeal.
• Michael Weiss (09:03): "He wilted like a salted snail...he’s sort of a no-energy Trump, to be honest.”

European & Ukrainian Tactics amid U.S. Chaos

• Ukrainians have learned to use media leaks to box Trump in, generating political pressure for more supportive headlines.
• European allies remain cautious but reactive, often caught between hopeful delusions and disappointment in U.S. leadership.

Witkoff’s Role and Corruption in Negotiation

• Discussion of Steve Witkoff's role as an unofficial, financially motivated go-between, pushing Russian-friendly deals likely to benefit the Trump-Kushner-Witkoff nexus.
• Michael Weiss (16:42): "Witkoff's family and Trump's family could make a lot of money... this is how the Russians go around bribing their way in as a form of political warfare."

Russian Active Measures and U.S. Gullibility

• Anecdote about Rep. Anna Paulina Luna being ensnared by Russian disinformation (Russian embassy delivering ‘evidence’ about the JFK assassination).
• Michael Weiss (21:59): "These are the Russian active measures of a subreddit. It's so naked, it's so farcical, it's so absurd.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s attitude:
  • Michael Weiss (09:03): "He wilted like a salted snail."
  • Tim Miller (09:03): "'Have you said thank you once?'"
• On Russian bartering:
  • Michael Weiss (06:17): "The Russians have incorporated Donbas into its constitution. ... You can invade a country, take it over militarily, kidnap its children … as long as you write in your constitution ‘this is ours now’…"
• On Ukraine resisting pressure:
  • Michael Weiss (08:09): "The Ukrainians said, absolutely not. You have to understand, Donbas is one of the most militarized places in the world."
• On U.S. secret support for Ukraine:
  • Michael Weiss (13:41): “The US is still very much involved in Ukraine... US intel was being shared with Ukrainians for deep strikes on Russian energy...which is a good thing and which is something that Donald Trump avows to want.”
• On MAGA and Russian propaganda:
  • Michael Weiss (21:59): “Russian active measures are not...all the intricacies and all the kind of elaborate schemes...now all of this stuff is literally being tweeted in real time.”

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:08] — Overview of Trump’s shifting position on Ukraine/Russia
• [06:17] — Deep dive on the Donbas proposal and Russian "offers"
• [09:03] — Zelensky’s confrontation with Trump and Trump's backdown
• [13:17] — Trump’s psychological vulnerability to Putin
• [21:34] — The Anna Paulina Luna/JFK-Russia disinformation anecdote

Additional Topics

Middle East Ceasefire and Trump, Kushner, and Saudi Money

• Discussion of the tenuous Gaza ceasefire and Trump’s self-spun legend as Middle East peacemaker.
• Bribery, corruption, and the illusion of lasting peace are recurring themes.
• Michael Weiss (29:25): “Peace in our time, you know, ticker tape parade. ... not only is it too soon to tell, but there are a lot of indicators that that was never ever going to be the case.”

Western Hemisphere: Venezuela and Regime Change

• Rubio’s ascension as point man for Venezuela policy signals return to neocon interventionist impulses even as U.S. pulls back from Europe.
• Michael Weiss (35:52): "Little Marco gets his Bay of Pigs and baby, he's earned it."
• Rubio’s experience and hawkish credentials are seen as an improvement over previous Trumpian appointees.

Music & Humanity (ending Weiss segment)

• Brief cheerful aside: Michael Weiss took his daughter to her first ever concert (Chappell Roan); his favorite song was “My Kink is Karma.”
• Michael Weiss (41:30): “My Kink is Karma with By a Mile ... it’s about schadenfreude, but believe you me, I experience schadenfreude on a daily basis.”

Segment 2: Karine Jean-Pierre — "A Look Inside a Broken White House"

(42:42 – 75:07)

Main Themes

• Jean-Pierre’s disillusionment with party politics and advocacy for people-centered activism
• The failures and missed opportunities of the Democratic Party and 2024 election
• Kamala Harris, the vice presidency, and the challenges for women of color in power

Key Discussion Points

Reflections on the 'No Kings' Protests

• Karine Jean-Pierre (43:46): “It is really gives me some comfort in this time of fear...when it comes to authoritarianism ... chaos is connected to that ... We need to be fearless.”

On the Speed and Depth of Trump’s Second Term

• Everything telegraphed in Project 2025 is being enacted at ‘rapid speed’, rolling back decades of institutional progress.
• Karine Jean-Pierre (45:26): “...the rapidness of the speed that it’s happened. ...what we see now is...we know exactly what we want to do. ... undo items ... pertinent and important to people who are vulnerable…”

Why Write a Book? Why Leave the Democrats?

• Jean-Pierre felt compelled by private citizens’ fear and uncertainty post-Biden to outline a new roadmap for accountability and people power.
• Karine Jean-Pierre (46:56): “…trying to give voice and saying the quiet stuff out loud and give a roadmap for Americans... this two party system isn’t working.”

On Exiting the Democratic Party

• As a queer Black woman, she asserts the party takes these foundational members for granted, pushing her to step outside and speak truth.
• Karine Jean-Pierre (48:47): “Black women have been the backbone... and what I have seen... we are left out of the process or ... forgotten.”

Kamala Harris’s Book and Experience of Marginalization

• Jean-Pierre applauds Harris for telling her story, notes the structural difficulty for Black women in politics, and explains her own efforts to support Harris as press secretary.
• Critiqued Biden’s team for not setting Harris up to succeed, particularly on the migrant crisis portfolio.
• Karine Jean-Pierre (51:14): “I admire Vice President Kamala Harris... I know I understand what it could feel like when you are undermined.”

Protecting Biden’s Legacy vs. Defeating Trump

• Miller presses on whether the Democratic Party and the White House erred by focusing more on protecting Biden’s legacy than preparing for a tough re-election or a possible handoff to Harris.
• Jean-Pierre affirms her job was communicating Biden's policies, defends the President against charges of disengagement, and points to the unexpectedly strong 2022 midterms as a reason for optimism at the time.
• Karine Jean-Pierre (56:31): “I would disagree that this president was only concerned about his legacy. ...That was not the focus that I was given.”

On Biden’s Age and Performance

• Sharp exchange about whether Biden was up for the fight in 2024; Jean-Pierre notes that in early 2023, the overall party consensus was behind him running again due to past performance.
• Karine Jean-Pierre (63:15): “The president spoke to the American people a couple times a week. ...It is hard, it is hard to break through any messaging...”

Reform and the Path Forward

• Jean-Pierre insists it’s time to shift power from political parties back to the people.
• She advocates bolder opposition, mass mobilization, more lawsuits, and engagement with voters everywhere — all while emphasizing the failure of the Democratic establishment to ‘fight’ the way the crisis demands.
• Karine Jean-Pierre (65:44): “This is the moment now where Democrats in particular ... need to do more ... When you look at...‘No Kings’ protest...it’s only organizations outside organizations ... Why do Democrats not do protests like that?"

On Feeling Unrepresented

• Urges the Democratic Party to stop taking core constituencies for granted and to build a truly inclusive "big-tent."
• Karine Jean-Pierre (69:46): “...black women feel like they get left out...LGBTQ community feel like they’re being left out... I don’t think they’re doing enough for migrants and immigrants.”

Workplace Dynamics and Alienation

• Discusses, in non-specific terms, being undermined by a senior mentor as press secretary — not naming names but framing it as a common experience for "firsts" (minorities, women).
• Karine Jean-Pierre (71:09): “Even the people who are the closest to you really put roadblocks in front of you...I think...many people...will understand and...probably feel as if I’m speaking to them.”

On Trump’s "Hack Press Briefing" Regime

• Jean-Pierre laments the current state of the press room, arguing the absence of genuine press scrutiny is a threat to democracy itself.
• Karine Jean-Pierre (73:16): “The freedom of the press...supposed to hold powerful people accountable...when that no longer exists, it’s no longer part of our democracy ... you're talking about an authoritarian regime.”

Notable Quotes

• Karine Jean-Pierre (43:46): "We need to be fearless. ...They want us to be silent."
• Karine Jean-Pierre (46:56): "Trying to give voice and say the quiet stuff out loud and give a roadmap for Americans out there..."
• Karine Jean-Pierre (48:47): "Black women have been the backbone...and...we are left out of the process or...forgotten."
• Tim Miller (62:44): "He [Biden] talked way less to the press than Donald Trump does."
• Karine Jean-Pierre (65:44): "This is the moment now where Democrats in particular here, because I see them as the opposition party ... they need to do more."

Additional Segment Timestamps

• [43:46] — Reflections on "No Kings" protests and threats to democracy
• [45:26] — Trump’s second term: speed and scale of rollback
• [46:54] — Writing the book and exiting the Democratic Party
• [51:14] — Kamala Harris, the VP portfolio, and Democratic Party inclusivity
• [56:31] — On Biden's legacy focus vs. fighting Trump
• [62:44] — On Biden’s age, energy, and press access critiques
• [65:44] — Mobilizing the opposition & Democratic Party reform
• [71:09] — Being undermined as a ‘first’ and mentorship challenges

Episode Tone

• Frank, unvarnished, sometimes darkly humorous (especially in the Weiss segment)
• Fiercely critical of Democratic leadership’s failures without resorting to false equivalence (“both-sides” arguments)
• Urgent and direct about the erosion of democracy and the need for political innovation and inclusivity

Takeaway

This double-feature episode provides a bracing look at U.S. and international politics in 2025:

• Trump’s foreign policy remains shambolic and compromised, with European and Ukrainian allies improvising survival tactics in Washington’s chaotic shadow.
• Corruption and a lack of seriousness in American leadership enable Russian and other authoritarian interests.
• At home, the Democratic Party is struggling to reinvent itself, losing once-reliable constituencies to disillusionment and anger after the 2024 election.
• Both guests advocate for fearless engagement, people-centered politics, and a fundamental rethinking of how democracy is protected and revitalized.

[End of Summary]