The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: Michael Weiss and Thomas Zimmer: Competent and Radical
Release Date: December 3, 2024

Hosts: Tim Miller and Michael Weiss
Guests: Thomas Zimmer

Introduction and Guest Background

In this episode, Tim Miller welcomes Thomas Zimmer, a visiting professor at Georgetown University and author of Democracy Americana on Substack. Zimmer specializes in 20th-century U.S. and international history, focusing on the transatlantic history of democracy and its challenges. He is also a co-host of the podcast Is This Democracy?

Notable Quote:

Tim Miller [04:03]: "Welcome as of yet still, I guess, right."

Evolution of the Conservative Movement

Zimmer discusses the transformation within the conservative movement, highlighting how traditional small government conservatism has evolved into a more radical stance. He uses Russell Vogt, a former Management and Budget (OMB) Director, as a case study to illustrate this shift from fiscal conservatism to what Zimmer terms "radical constitutionalism."

Notable Quotes:

Thomas Zimmer [07:22]: "He now wants to mobilize government and use the coercive powers of government to impose a certain vision on American society."

Michael Weiss [09:01]: "There's nothing left to conserve is really the key line there."

Russell Vogt and Radical Constitutionalism

Zimmer delves into Vogt’s career trajectory, emphasizing his transition from a fiscal hawk to a proponent of expansive government control. Vogt's ideology represents a departure from conserving existing institutions to actively dismantling and reshaping them to align with radical conservative goals.

Key Points:

• Vogt's background as a career operative within the Republican Party.
• Shift from advocating for small government to supporting a counter-revolutionary agenda.
• Emphasis on using executive orders to exert greater presidential control over federal agencies.

Notable Quotes:

Thomas Zimmer [09:14]: "Russell Vogt calls it radical constitutionalism. Conservatism is no longer enough."

Thomas Zimmer [12:19]: "The hour is late," indicating an imminent collapse of America as perceived by radical conservatives.

Impact on Federal Institutions: The FBI Appointment

The conversation shifts to the implications of appointing Cash Patel as the head of the FBI. Patel is characterized as a conspiracy theorist deeply loyal to Trump, raising concerns about morale and the bureau's integrity.

Key Points:

• Michael Weiss highlights Patel’s involvement with QAnon and his promotion of right-wing conspiracy theories.
• Concerns about the FBI's ability to function effectively under such leadership.
• Potential for increased internal conflict and reduced morale among agents.

Notable Quotes:

Tim Miller [29:04]: "Keshe Patel is a conspiracy theorist. And even more than that, I think he is such a slavish loyalist to the president."

Michael Weiss [32:31]: "When Patel is promoting his children's book... he offered 10 copies in which he signed the books and added a special message, WWG1 WGA."

Geopolitical Developments: Syria and Turkish Influence

Zimmer provides an in-depth analysis of the current situation in Syria, detailing the weakening of Iranian influence and the surge of Turkish-backed rebel groups aiming to topple Assad's regime. He draws parallels between these developments and historical geopolitical strategies.

Key Points:

• Iran's diminished role in Syria due to setbacks against Hezbollah and other militias.
• Rise of HTS (Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham) under leader Jelani, who seeks to establish a state-like apparatus in northwest Syria.
• Turkey’s strategic sponsorship of the Syrian National Army (SNA) to counter Kurdish forces and exert regional dominance.
• The complex interplay between Russian, Turkish, and local Syrian actors in shaping the conflict’s trajectory.

Notable Quotes:

Tim Miller [48:09]: "Jelani has gone to war with ISIS many times. There's this weird thing where a jihadist is fighting transnational terrorists."

Tim Miller [55:58]: "HTS is like the Taliban, they are an authoritarian Salafist organization, but they legitimately want to govern and they want to have an administrative capacity."

Russia's Internal Status and Ukraine War Implications

The discussion transitions to Russia's economic and military struggles, particularly focusing on the war in Ukraine. Zimmer and Weiss examine the sustainability of Russia’s military efforts amid significant losses and internal economic pressures.

Key Points:

• Russia's staggering losses in manpower and military equipment.
• The impact of conscripting diverse nationalities, including North Koreans and Cubans, on Russia's military efficacy.
• Potential shifts in Ukraine's strategies and morale in light of upcoming U.S. political changes.
• Speculations on how improvements or deteriorations in Russia's domestic situation could influence the ongoing conflict.

Notable Quotes:

Tim Miller [60:19]: "British intelligence estimates that over 700,000 Russian forces have been taken off the chessboard."

Tim Miller [62:39]: "Republicans have a great deal of wariness about people like Gabbard."

Intelligence Sharing and International Relations

The appointment of politically aligned individuals across intelligence and defense sectors raises alarms about the future of intelligence sharing with allies, particularly the UK. Zimmer expresses concerns that the politicization of these roles could undermine crucial international partnerships.

Key Points:

• Potential reluctance of the UK and NATO allies to fully share intelligence with a politicized U.S. administration.
• The role of key figures like Tulsi Gabbard in national security positions and their controversial affiliations.
• The risk of diminished trust and cooperation among traditional allies.

Notable Quotes:

Michael Weiss [42:17]: "We have a veritable team of rivals. I don't think it was intentionally a team of rivals as a team of rivals."

Tim Miller [36:07]: "The broad view, it's a veritable team of rivals."

Closing Remarks

As the episode wraps up, Miller and Weiss reflect on the potential long-term consequences of the current political and geopolitical shifts. They emphasize the importance of recognizing and addressing the rise of competent and radical elements within the conservative movement, as well as the broader implications for U.S. democracy and international stability.

Notable Quotes:

Tim Miller [69:08]: "The way things are going, it won't be the last."

Thomas Zimmer [25:19]: "Who knows, right? Who knows?"

Notable Quotes Summary

• Zimmer [07:22]: "He now wants to mobilize government and use the coercive powers of government to impose a certain vision on American society."

• Zimmer [09:14]: "Russell Vogt calls it radical constitutionalism. Conservatism is no longer enough."

• Weiss [12:19]: "The hour is late," indicating an imminent collapse of America as perceived by radical conservatives.

• Miller [29:04]: "Keshe Patel is a conspiracy theorist. And even more than that, I think he is such a slavish loyalist to the president."

• Weiss [32:31]: "When Patel is promoting his children's book... he offered 10 copies in which he signed the books and added a special message, WWG1 WGA."

• Miller [48:09]: "Jelani has gone to war with ISIS many times. There's this weird thing where a jihadist is fighting transnational terrorists."

• Miller [55:58]: "HTS is like the Taliban, they are an authoritarian Salafist organization, but they legitimately want to govern and they want to have an administrative capacity."

• Miller [60:19]: "British intelligence estimates that over 700,000 Russian forces have been taken off the chessboard."

• Weiss [42:17]: "We have a veritable team of rivals. I don't think it was intentionally a team of rivals as a team of rivals."

• Miller [69:08]: "The way things are going, it won't be the last."

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of the shifting dynamics within the conservative movement, the rise of radical constitutionalism, and the broader geopolitical ramifications of these changes. Through insightful discussions with Thomas Zimmer, host Tim Miller and guest Michael Weiss shed light on the emergent threats to liberal democracy, both domestically and internationally, emphasizing the need for vigilance and informed analysis in these turbulent times.