Michael Weiss: Helsinki in Anchorage?

Summary

Below is a detailed, structured summary of the Bulwark Podcast episode “Michael Weiss: Helsinki in Anchorage?” (August 14, 2025) hosted by Tim Miller. The discussion weaves together domestic security observations, international negotiations, Russian actions in Ukraine and Europe—and Trump’s questionable role in all of it—with plenty of offbeat asides and memorable quips.

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1. OVERVIEW
   ───────────────────────────── • The episode features a spirited discussion between host Tim Miller, co-hosts, and guest Michael Weiss (a longtime Russia and intelligence commentator now temporarily based in Portugal).
   • Central to the conversation is the looming Alaska summit (or “Russia summit”) where Trump’s planned meeting with Putin is examined, alongside the broader implications of U.S. domestic instability, Russia’s war in Ukraine, and Europe’s evolving role in security and sanctions.
   • Listeners are treated to both humorous exchanges (e.g., the infamous “sandwich toss” incident) and sober policy analysis on sanctions, military strategy, diplomatic negotiations, and the unpredictable nature of Trump’s foreign policy maneuvers.

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2. KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS
───────────────────────────── A. Domestic Security and Early On-Air Commentary
 • [00:13 – 00:48]
  – Tim Miller opens with hot-topic commentary on alarming inflation numbers, bizarre news stories (including a “Nazi ship fetish” and participation in January 6), and a nod to previous Bulwark Takes fast-response content.
  – Brief humorous mention of rave (if not tongue-in-cheek) listener reviews that spin the podcast’s influence in politically unexpected ways.

B. Introduction of Michael Weiss and Setting Context
 • [01:47 – 02:05]
  – Michael Weiss joins the conversation and reveals he is spending August in Portugal.
  – Early banter touches on the perception of U.S. security with references to military checkpoints in D.C. and increasing domestic displays of force.

C. Trump, Putin, and the Alaska Summit
 • [07:37 – 11:06]
  – The discussion shifts to the symbolic implications of hosting Putin in Alaska—a location once part of Russia—and the irony of inviting an indicted war criminal onto American soil.
  – Weiss reminds listeners that while Trump boasts of an “apple of Putin’s eye” relationship (referenced around [10:23]), historically, Putin has used charisma and manipulation to his strategic advantage.
  – Debate unfolds on whether Trump’s overtures might merely be a rehash of past political theater rather than a genuine push toward a ceasefire.

D. Sanctions, Legislative Bulwarks, and European Involvement
 • [14:03 – 16:29]
  – The panel reviews key legislative measures such as the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) that restrict unilateral executive actions on lifting sanctions.
  – They discuss the “PEARL mechanism”: an arrangement whereby NATO allies are purchasing U.S. weaponry to support Ukraine, ensuring that despite Trump’s rhetoric, Ukraine’s war-fighting capacity remains robust.
  – The European Union’s role as a counterbalance is emphasized, with the speakers noting that European countries are imposing new sanctions and bolstering their own defense spending.

E. Negotiation Tactics and the Reality of Conflict
 • [17:00 – 23:34]
  – Weiss and co-hosts speculate on the potential outcomes of the Alaska summit. They debate whether Trump’s strategy is trying to extract a ceasefire from Putin or merely seeking to placate Russian ambitions.
  – Historical comparisons are drawn: Weiss mentions the 2018 Helsinki meeting between Trump and Putin—where Putin “rolled” Trump—implying that past outcomes may repeat.
  – They discuss concrete battlefield realities: a reported 7‑km penetration in Donbas illustrates that while there are minor tactical gains for Russia, the overall war remains attritional rather than decisively shifted.

F. Russian Subversion and Hybrid Warfare in Europe
 • [35:16 – 40:18]
  – The conversation pivots to Russia’s covert operations. Notable points include:
   – A Colombian national (linked with Russian intelligence) indicted for arson attacks in Poland.
   – Recent hacking of federal court records in the U.S., suggesting that while Russia’s military is engaged in Ukraine, its intelligence services maintain disruptive operations at home and in Europe.
  – Discussion of “Department E” of the GRU, which recruits foreign operatives worldwide to conduct sabotage and subversive acts reminiscent of both ISIS and classic Cold War operations.

G. Tariffs, Trade, and Geopolitical Leverage
 • [44:14 – 45:31]
  – Trump’s tariff rhetoric—specifically on India for buying Russian oil—is examined.
  – The hosts debate the potential consequences of leveraging tariffs as a foreign policy tool, noting that such measures risk alienating key allies while doing little to change Russia’s entrenched economic strategies.
  – The remarks reveal Trump’s transactional, often contradictory, approach where his actions seem as much about domestic posturing as about strategic outcomes abroad.

H. European Readjustment and the Future of the Transatlantic Relationship
 • [27:09 – 29:48]
  – The speakers highlight that Nordic and Baltic nations have significantly increased their defense spending on Ukraine (with percentages of GDP cited from Denmark, Estonia, and others) far exceeding the investments seen on the U.S. side in recent years.
  – There’s reflective commentary on how Europe, while once criticized as “freeloading,” is now actively repositioning itself to safeguard its own security interests independent of Washington’s policies—what one speaker refers to as “security autonomy.”

I. Final Thoughts on the Alaska Summit and U.S. Foreign Policy
 • [45:56 – 47:07]
  – Weiss casts Trump’s upcoming meeting as unlikely to yield any major concessions from Putin; the best-case scenario might simply be that Russia gains no new economic freebies, and Trump comes away frustrated.
  – The discussion turns to the political calculus: Trump’s seemingly casual, even cavalier, attitude towards Ukraine marks a significant departure from more traditional U.S. foreign policy allegiances, raising questions about future U.S. intervention and geopolitical alignments.

─────────────────────────────
3. NOTABLE QUOTES & TIMESTAMPS
───────────────────────────── • [00:13] B: “...the weird mortician man having a Nazi ship fetish. That's a shocker.” • [01:47] C: “It's Michael Weiss.”
  – Quick introduction setting the stage for a deep dive into Russia-related issues. • [10:23] D: “He literally described himself that he was the apple of Putin's eye.”
  – Referencing Trump’s self-aggrandizing remarks about his relationship with Putin. • [14:03] D: “...Congress gets oversight. You have to have a vote of Congress in order to lift some of the major sanctions on Russian oil and gas.”
  – Illustrates the legislative checks that constrain unilateral executive actions. • [21:27] D: “...even when they win, they eventually lose because they ask for too much and they play it too rough.”
  – Reflects on Russia’s long-term strategic missteps in its dealings with the West.

─────────────────────────────
4. CONCLUDING REMARKS
───────────────────────────── • The hosts wrap up by acknowledging that while the military and economic situations are fraught with complexity—and Trump’s upcoming Alaska summit may not deliver a dramatic shift—the longstanding institutional bulwarks (both in American law and European resolve) remain in force.
• There is a shared sense of cautious pragmatism: despite alarming reports of Russian subversive operations and battlefield shifts in Ukraine, the broader picture suggests that a catastrophic downfall is not inevitable. Instead, the evolving transatlantic relationship continues to redefine the strategic balance.
• The episode concludes on a light, humorous note with banter about vacation spots (Portugal) and future guest appearances, leaving listeners with both a detailed snapshot of current geopolitical tensions and a wry smile at the unpredictable nature of American politics.

This summary captures the multifaceted nature of the discussion, blending rigorous policy analysis with offbeat humor and personal anecdotes—characteristic of the Bulwark’s style. Whether you’re following the complex Russia–Ukraine dynamic, curious about Trump’s diplomatic gambits, or interested in how Europe is recalibrating its security priorities, this episode offers a deep dive into the evolving state of global affairs.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Before we get to the guest today, I just have a couple things. I just finished popping off a quick take on some pretty alarming PPI numbers with regards to inflation that came out this morning. And we also have some stories about the new Commissioner of Labor statistics, the weird mortician man having a Nazi ship fetish. That's a shocker. And being there in January 6th. So I talked about that with Bill Kristol over on the Bulwark Takes feed. Make sure you go check that out.

[C]

And check out the other stuff that we've been popping out over on Bulwark Takes when there's rapid response news that we want to get to you.

[B]

I also just want to say I was blown away by the overwhelmingly positive feedback to yesterday's podcast. So I wanted to share a few of the rave reviews with you. Gina. Well, that one stuck with me. In fact, it made me wake up in the middle of the night. Sox Dogs. It just made me want to go as far left as possible. Chris Nowak. Listening to Jason Calacanis will awaken your inner Lenin, whether you think you have one or not. Pete Rabbit, your last episode turned me into a full communist. So, you know, not exactly aligned with the pod's stated mission there, but at least we're having an influence on you. Always appreciate your feedback. We'll see how today's podcast goes. He's the editor of the Insider, a Russia focused independent media outlet and a contributing editor at New Lines magazine. He's the author of ISIS Inside the Army of Terror and a forthcoming book about the gru, Russia's intel agency.

[C]

It's Michael Weiss.

[B]

Hey, man, what's happening?

[D]

Welcome to my life in Portugal, where I have emigrated for the month of August.

[B]

Is it maybe potentially permanent? Are you testing that out?

[D]

You know, tempting, but not really possible. Too many commitments back home.

[B]

All right, well, as of right now, your home in America has not been militarized. Not the same for listeners in Washington.

[C]

D.C. and so I want to obviously talk mostly about the Alaska summit or.

[B]

The Russia summit, whichever way you want to look at that.

[C]

Yeah. But just really quick on what's happening in D.C. there are images of, you know, checkpoints on 14th street last night, people shouting at the, at the military this morning, military vehicles on, you know, monitoring the people jogging on the Mall, which is a very high crime area, you know, the National Mall at 9 in the morning.

[B]

What are you hearing from folks like, what's your sense of alarm as Far.

[C]

As parallels to other countries or you're.

[B]

Hearing from your European friends over there.

[C]

In Portugal, what's your sense of the state of play with that?

[E]

I mean, I think a lot of.

[D]

People'S expectations have been resetting over not only the first eight months or whatever this administration's second term, but the last decade. Seeing the United States opt for a guy like Trump and then opt for him again in spite of his attempt to foment an insurrection and the overthrow of a government that he led, including hanging his then vice president. I mean, this is very par for the course for Europeans who have a history of. I mean, I was in Spain in June where there was a pretty vicious fratricidal war fought in the 1930s. There's a plaza de Orwell in Barcelona, which is the only, like, touristy thing I did when I was there, because he famously fought on the side of an anarchist brigade defending the Republic.

[E]

Europe is very accustomed to the rise.

[D]

Of populist dictators and obviously world war and things like that. But there was always this kind of prevailing assumption that that wouldn't happen in the U.S. you know, I used to be quite kind of pissy about Europeans who would say, well, you know, what's to choose in America? Democrat, Republican, it's two sides of the same coin of reaction. And I said, yeah, but you know, we don't have communism and fascism like you guys do. You know, like that sort of mind numbing centrism or that kind of, you know, sort of political equilibrium has served us pretty well certainly since World War II. And now obviously that's, that's no longer true. So, I mean, I don't know. I'm not in D.C. i'm not walking the streets, you know, with, with the, the National Guard on the, on, on the Hill or whatever. But for me, it's, it's kind of strange because I'm, I, I feel a.

[E]

Little bit desensitized to it in a bad way.

[D]

You know, you forget.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

That he also sent US military into Los Angeles, you know, a few weeks ago. It's like, wait, what? Oh, that happened.

[F]

Right.

[D]

And now we're redeploying to Washington. So what's next? I don't know. I mean, he seems to be keen on interfering in the New York mayoral race. And maybe if that doesn't go the way he wants, if Mamdani becomes mayor, he's going to do something similar in Manhattan.

[C]

And I mean, Tom Homan was saying yesterday, they seem to be indicating the.

[B]

D.C. situation is in some ways unique.

[C]

Because he can do this legally for 30 days, but they're already kind of indicating that that might want to go on longer.

[B]

There has been a small, I guess, individual act of resistance.

[C]

You never know what individual act of resistance will resonate. Who threw the first brick at Stonewall, for example?

[B]

This was a man that threw a sandwich through a subway sandwich at Ice for the YouTubers. I'm going to put the video of.

[D]

This, by the way.

[B]

It's too funny.

[D]

The ICE guy he threw the sandwich at probably worked at subway not like 3 hours ago.

[E]

I actually went on the website to see what the requirements are for applying.

[D]

Because I saw the south park bit and, you know, you assume that parody is always kind of a hyper reality or an exaggeration.

[E]

There's no exaggeration. I mean, no college degree, no high school diploma. Come on in, the water's fine.

[C]

You know, I mean, I debated a.

[B]

Former actor, a low, former low level Superman actor who's 59 years old, who's joined ICE.

[C]

So.

[E]

Dean Cain.

[C]

Yeah, as Dean Cain, me and Dean went at it.

[B]

I want to play just for you.

[C]

I'm just trying to sensitize you.

[B]

I know you're desensitized.

[C]

Trying to sensitize you.

[B]

This is the United States attorney from.

[C]

Washington, D.C. talking about the sandwich incident.

[G]

And the President's message to the criminals was, if you spit, we hit. Well, we didn't quite do that the other night when an individual went up to one of the federal law enforcement officers and started jumping up and down, screaming at him, berating him, yelling at him. And then he took a Subway sandwich about this big and took it and threw it at the officer. He thought it was funny. Well, he doesn't think it's funny today because we charged him with a felony assault on a police officer.

[B]

Well, I don't know. I kind of want.

[C]

Where is, where's Shepard Fairey when you need it?

[D]

By the way, Subway sandwiches are notoriously soft and squishy.

[E]

They never use stale bread.

[D]

So like, if you're going to throw something at a cop, you know, it's not like you're throwing a Burger king or a McDonald's, you know, so anyway.

[B]

That'S where we're at, though. That's what's happening back here. Are you sure you want to come back? That was, again, I just want to reiterate, that was the United States attorney.

[C]

Top, top prosecutor for Washington slurring to have. Your priorities seem to be slurring there on the, on the sandwich toss.

[B]

Okay, we'll move On, I want to get to the summit, which is why you're here tomorrow in Alaska. There's a bunch of elements to this.

[C]

Trump and Zelensky in the EU at a virtual meeting yesterday.

[B]

But before you get into like that, I just like the biggest picture. Like, what do you assess the sides.

[C]

Are trying to get out of the meeting?

[D]

Well, let's first assess the obvious, which is the Russians already gain an enormous symbolic victory here. Putin is an indicted war criminal, according to the icc, which we're not a party to, but still, we made a big deal about it when he was indicted. We are welcoming him onto American soil. Not just any strip of American soil, but Alaska, which the Russians controlled up until 1867. And the Russians like to sort of trollingly joke that they may one day yet control it again.

[E]

Also, I'm hearing from my friends in the State Department. Do you know how many visas the.

[D]

Russians have asked for for their people?

[C]

I have no idea.

[B]

No, tell me.

[D]

Take a wild guess. Take a wild guess. 12, 450?

[E]

More than that.

[D]

Do you know what they've also done? They've requested state assistance in finding accommodations for their people, which include an enormous delegation of journalists. They have more journalists, quote, unquote, journalists. How many of them are FSB or GRU agents? I don't know.

[E]

Coming in.

[C]

We can't really mock their journalists anymore. I don't know if you've been watching any of the United States press conferences that we've been having lately, but some strange, strange coward in there.

[D]

Their victory lap is taking the form of expecting our own Foreign Ministry to be like an expedia for the Russians and find them hotel rooms in Anchorage.

[E]

And, I mean, if Sarah Palin could.

[D]

See Russia before, she can really see Russia from her house now, man.

[E]

I mean, it's.

[B]

I mean, how many hotel rooms do we think there are in Anchorage?

[D]

I don't know.

[C]

Our Alaska listeners will be upset at me for, for it's.

[B]

But it's not, you know, both of them. It's not a high. It's not a high convention town.

[C]

You know, it's not a big convention.

[D]

It's not a hootenanny town.

[E]

But anyway, you know, the Russians are.

[D]

Coming in very high on the hog about. Well, Trump has mooted this idea. He's the one who wanted to meet with Putin, desperately seeking an audience. And as. As I think the White House press secretary said that Trump is, quote, honored to sit down with this war criminal.

[E]

Now, there's a lot being thrown around.

[D]

In the media about supposed Deals that have already been struck or the kinds of things that. That. That may be struck.

[E]

I mean, I'm.

[D]

I'm trying not to get ahead of myself here, because I've seen this movie before where a lot of people, you know, run out there with. With very authoritative claims that then sort of evaporate.

[E]

Trump has not got Putin to agree.

[D]

To a ceasefire, much to his chagrin, much to his evident exasperation. This is a guy who said, the force of my charisma. He literally described himself the other day that he said I was the apple of Putin's eye. He said this in his.

[C]

He said that a couple of times.

[D]

He said that a couple of times. Right. So the force of his charisma, you know, Putin sees Donald Trump as like, you know, Vladimir Jr. The apple of his eye, the force.

[E]

Of his charisma and his warmth and affection was meant to get Putin to say, yeah, you know, that war of conquest I had launched a few years.

[D]

Ago to take an entire sovereign nation in Europe.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

I'm going to undo all that because, you know, Donnie from Queens asked me nicely. So that didn't work out. Now it's, what can I put on the table? How can I better negotiate with Putin directly to bring this thing to a close?

[E]

And, you know, you don't have to.

[D]

Be a Russia expert or a scholar or even particularly well versed in the vagaries of Russian foreign policy to realize.

[E]

You know, the Russians are not interested.

[D]

In ending the war, and Putin himself cannot end it because the entire economy revolves around fighting this thing.

[F]

Right.

[D]

I mean, he has now invested so much of his own strategic imperative as the dictator of Russia.

[E]

His very regime kind of depends on.

[D]

Prosecuting this war, however it may go. That doesn't seem to have penetrated in the minds of Donald Trump.

[E]

Steve Witkoff, who I prefer to call Dim Philby, who I was told was.

[D]

Taken off the Russia portfolio because the.

[E]

New York Post wrote a very withering piece about him where some unnamed official.

[D]

From Trump's first term said, you know, Steve Witkoff, nice guy, but a bumbling idiot who should be nowhere near any of this stuff.

[E]

I was told he had been shunted off onto the Middle east portfolio where.

[D]

He was going to end the war with Hamas and bring the hostages home and all of that good stuff.

[E]

And suddenly he comes back and he's.

[D]

Negotiating with the Russians with a medal.

[E]

With a medal, with a medal, the Order of Lenin, which Putin evidently gave.

[D]

Him to bestow on the CIA officer whose deeply fucked up son went off and fought with The Russians and got killed in Ukraine. Right. So talk about the Russians kind of, you know, twerking the Americans here, I mean, trolling.

[C]

Yeah, he didn't understate. It was nice.

[D]

He thought it was like a, a legitimate bauble to be handed to an American intelligence officer.

[E]

So, yeah, I mean, and he also created a diplomatic crisis by saying, well, the Russians want all of Donetsk and.

[D]

Lugans, which they do not control, in full.

[F]

Right.

[E]

To take all of Donetsk, the Ukrainians.

[D]

Would have to withdraw from two fortified cities, Sloviansk and Kramatorsk. If you go back to 2014, 2015, some of the most pitched battles against the so called separatists at that time were fought for these population centers.

[E]

So for the Ukrainians to withdraw from.

[D]

There, I mean, that's a non starter.

[E]

But anyway, Witkoff had originally suggested Russia wants Donetsk and Lugansk and Russia will.

[D]

Withdraw from their controlled areas of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. Russians never ever said that basically all the Russians have done or intimated that they've done because they're playing a little close to the chest in terms of what's been discussed. They prefer to see us in our media kind of chase our tail figuring out what the Russians may have said.

[E]

But all that they seem to have done is say this is what we demand of Ukraine.

[D]

What we're prepared to do is, is not up for discussion.

[F]

Right.

[D]

So, right again, their starting position is they have annexed for oblasts of Ukraine. They will not UN annex them easily. Certainly not, you know, for any kind of incentives that Trump might offer.

[E]

Now, the one thing that's keeping me.

[D]

From suicidal ideation at the moment, even in the sunny climate of Portugal, where the wine is cheap but also quite good, is there are certain. Yeah, there are certain institutional bulwarks in place in the US system. Even now.

[C]

Ding.

[D]

Yep, ding. Even now, under an increasingly autocratic government or presidency that keep Trump from doing the worst he could possibly do. So what are these bulwarks?

[E]

In his first term, there was something.

[D]

Called catsa, the Countering American Adversaries Through Sanctions Act. One of the architects of it, ironically was Marco Rubio. What was katsa?

[E]

It was basically a way to keep.

[D]

The executive from signing all kinds of sanctions waivers and lifting sanctions unilaterally, especially on Russia, which at that point had been guilty of the first invasion of Ukraine.

[E]

It was kind of like a manacle.

[D]

A congressional manacle on White House authority.

[E]

Since then, there have been all kinds.

[D]

Of executive orders, all of them codified through cats, a series of legislation passed that basically does the same thing, right, says that Congress gets oversight. You have to have a vote of Congress in order to lift some of the major sanctions on Russian oil and gas, on the Russian banking system. The second bulwark I would say, which is not in the American system, is the European Union.

[E]

So the EU has said not only.

[D]

Not lifting any sanctions, we're going to pass new sanctions. And so you notice now Zelensky, in anticipatory terror of what's about to commence in Alaska, has been going, making the rounds with the European leadership, meeting with Merz, having calls with everybody saying, you have to have my back because if Donald tries to throw me under the bus again, it's going to fall to you to basically keep Ukraine afloat.

[E]

Now, there are other things too, and again, I don't credit anything Trump says.

[D]

I prefer to look at what he does or he does not do. But he has said, if you want to take this as a data point, that regardless of what happens in Alaska, he will continue to sell weapons to NATO allies for the express purpose of their donating those weapons to Ukraine. So there's something called pearl mechanism, which was recently cobbled together, that's purl whereby NATO is going to buy billions and billions of dollars in kit that can only be sourced here or, sorry, there where you are in the United States and that Ukraine badly needs. Now, these include long range air defense systems like the Patriot rocket artillery like gimlers and ATACMs used by HIMARS, and howitzer 155 millimeter shells.

[E]

So as long as the Europeans can buy stuff for Ukraine, Ukraine will be okay.

[D]

It will not be completely forfeit in its war fighting capability.

[C]

And that was that came out of.

[B]

Yesterday'S virtual summit, was that was at least what was said by Trump or.

[C]

Is kind of what the Americans are saying.

[E]

Yeah, I'm hearing some background reporting from.

[D]

Various phone calls, including the one that Trump had with Zelensky, which went pretty well from what I've been told. But again, who knows what that means? And I wonder what the margin of not so pretty well was in that discussion.

[E]

But I mean, at the end of the day, there's things that he also cannot do unilaterally without factoring in the.

[D]

Agency of other parties here. I mean, Ukraine's constitution forbids Ukraine from giving away territory, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

I mean, you know, Donald Trump seems.

[D]

To think that war is the closing of escrow by other means. Like it's all just a real estate, you know, negotiation.

[E]

It's not population transfers, ethnic cleansing, you.

[D]

Know, either de facto or dior, recognition of occupied territory.

[E]

These are things that, you know, don't.

[D]

Just happen overnight and cannot happen with the stroke of a pen, at least not in, you know, the 21st century, much as he would like them to go that way.

[E]

So I'm not losing it just yet. But again, we've already given this unnecessary.

[D]

Gift to the Russians by. By legitimating Putin in this way and inviting him, you know, onto the US Homeland. It's obscene.

[B]

Finding great candidates to hire. Boy, it can be a challenge. I got to tell you, it's something I feel like I've got a lot of skills as a, as a colleague and fewer skills as a manager.

[C]

But one thing I struggle with is the hiring process. You get so many resumes and, you.

[B]

Know, a lot of candidates who, who.

[C]

You know, might have a lot of skills.

[B]

That's hard to tell from what's on paper. Might have the right kind of skills.

[C]

Might have the right expertise, but it's.

[B]

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[C]

That needle in the haystack.

[B]

You know that producer and editor that.

[C]

We have at this podcast that Jason Brown.

[B]

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[F]

Right?

[C]

Let's look at it from the perspective of, okay, so of at least taking what was reported that Trump said yesterday at this virtual summit with Zelensky and a lot of other European leaders and NATO leaders, and let's just take it at face value. Yeah, I mean, we'll see what happens tomorrow, but just, just as an exercise.

[B]

So if what he's saying is that, you know, that will still sworn into with weapons.

[C]

He's just trying to get Putin to have a ceasefire. He Feels like he is uniquely suited to do it because of his great relationship with Vladimir, etc.

[B]

I guess. War game. You're Marco Rubio's chief of staff.

[C]

What's the best case scenario tomorrow? I don't even understand what they're trying to achieve.

[B]

I guess they're hoping that Putin just.

[C]

Says, yeah, I'll take a ceasefire in exchange for you guys not sanctioning me.

[E]

He doesn't need to have gone to.

[D]

Alaska to do that. He's had ample opportunity to agree to that over the past three months. He's declined.

[C]

Right.

[D]

I think basically what Putin wants is a replay of Helsinki in 2018. We all remember that.

[B]

Sure.

[D]

You know, he has this one on one with with Trump. Very limited contingent in the room, translators and, you know, Fiona Hill, I think was in the room, maybe she wasn't. But anyway, she has the best recounting of that.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Tete a tet, which was. I mean, Putin just. He rolled Trump.

[E]

I mean, he flattered him, he cajoled.

[D]

Him, he manipulated him, he convinced him that his own intelligence community was lying about Russia's election interference in 2016.

[E]

He may well try to do the same thing.

[C]

What are the smart people, quote, unquote, in his world? What does Rubio think is a good option here? A good outcome for tomorrow?

[D]

It's hard for me to sort of get inside the mind of Marco Rubio at this point.

[E]

I do think he or the dead in soul of Marco.

[B]

Okay, how about this way, then? Let's put it this way. What would happen tomorrow that Michael Weiss would text me at the end of.

[C]

The day and be like, well, that went pretty well, actually.

[B]

That went surprisingly well.

[D]

So one constant in nature is the Russians when it comes to dealing with the Americans. Even when they win, they eventually lose because they ask for too much and they play it too rough.

[F]

Right.

[D]

And my one hope is that Dim Philby made assurances to the American side, to Trump, the Russians are going to meet you here. Putin gets in there and says, no, I had. I never said that. I'm not going to meet you here. So then Trump comes away angry at both Putin and Witkoff.

[E]

That's the best case scenario if Trump.

[D]

Gets really angry, like he's been manipulated or misled or lied to by his own outer borough real estate developer chum, and by Vladimir, you know, who has not stopped.

[C]

And he's not going to get his Peace Prize.

[B]

He's not going to get his Peace Prize.

[C]

So he's mad.

[E]

I mean, by the way, the Norwegians could Do us a big favor. Just coming out and saying, you're never going to get it, you're never going to get it, you're never going to get it. Like, I don't know. I mean, I guess maybe that's.

[D]

That violates the rules or whatever, but.

[B]

You know, they really could.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. So, yeah, I guess it turns out those are two different questions because.

[C]

Or maybe not.

[B]

I mean, Marco Rubio could not possibly.

[C]

Be hoping for that.

[F]

Right.

[C]

That he's just like a bank shot. Maybe boss gets mad we're doing this. Maybe boss gets mad.

[B]

It's just a legitimate question. Like, I generally can't fathom what they think they're going to get out of this. Like, I don't understand it.

[E]

I don't see a fire sale of Ukrainian territory happening. It may be introduced.

[D]

It's not going to go anywhere. The Ukrainians cannot do it.

[E]

It's not just Zelensky, by the way.

[D]

The entirety of the Ukrainian political class would be against that.

[E]

The Ukrainian population is very keen to.

[D]

See the war end and they're willing to negotiate with Russia in a manner that they weren't even a few months ago. But there are certain red lines here.

[F]

Right.

[D]

And the Europeans won't go for that as well.

[E]

I would say, you know, at minimum, you may be looking at prisoner swaps, which was the only sort of tangible.

[D]

Outcome of the Istanbul meetings between the Ukrainians and the Russians.

[E]

You may see a ceasefire in the air, which is something that's also been mooted.

[D]

So, you know, the Russians stop bombing and droning Ukrainian civilian infrastructure and population centers, and the Ukrainians agree not to to go after Russian oil and gas refineries or military installations inside Russian Federation territory.

[F]

Right.

[E]

Maybe you get that.

[D]

I doubt it, though.

[E]

I don't see Putin wanting to pump.

[D]

The brakes at any point.

[E]

And just this week, everybody got into a bit of a frenzy in panic.

[D]

Mode, which is understandable.

[E]

But just this week, the Russians broke.

[D]

Through Ukrainian defenses in the East.

[B]

Hold on, I want to get to that next.

[C]

Let's get to that as just one more thing on the deal, because there's a telegraph story, unlike the process, and I know you said you don't want to get ahead of what crazy stuff Trump could possibly offer, but I just think this is just worth putting on the table since it's out there.

[B]

It said this Trump will arrive.

[C]

They say will. We'll see if the reporting's accurate. I think you really probably shouldn't use the word will with anything about what Donald Trump's gonna do the next day. Cause who the fuck knows.

[B]

But armed with a number of money.

[C]

Making opportunities for Putin, including opening up Alaska's natural resources to Moscow.

[B]

Now, like I gent again, I hear you are not going to get ahead. But that, that just caught my eye because that's like now that kind of.

[C]

Sounds like Donald actually.

[B]

Maybe that's the plan to go there.

[C]

And be like, we'll enrich in you.

[B]

Maybe a crypto deal.

[E]

I mean, look, you know, before the.

[D]

War, first of all, Russia has a GDP smaller than the state of California.

[E]

If you're looking to make money, you're.

[D]

Much better off going to Asia, which was, you know, we've had this sort of fantastical pivot to Asia of over successive administrations. It never seems to be realized.

[E]

But also dealing with the Europeans and the European Union, I mean, they are.

[D]

Our largest trade partner.

[E]

So it makes no economical or financial sense to say we're going to do, you know, big business with Russia at.

[D]

The expense of our biggest trade partner.

[F]

Right.

[E]

Like, you know, we can all be very cynical about Donald Trump, but you know, he does seem to be very.

[D]

Transactionally motivated here and offering the Russians something that A, they don't want, B.

[E]

They don't need and, and C is not going to get us what we.

[D]

Need out of them.

[E]

Eventually he's going to have to realize.

[D]

That'S the way it is.

[E]

It wasn't so long ago that one of the ways that the Ukrainians were.

[D]

Seeking to curry favor with Trump and lock him into this alliance or strategic partnership with Ukraine was the minerals deal. We all remember that the rare earth thing, which that was meant to be.

[E]

Signed in the Oval Office in February and then they had their big two minutes of hate against Zelensky, both Trump.

[D]

And Vance, and they blew up and.

[E]

Then it was signed. Well, what happens to that, right, if the Russians continue to move forward in.

[D]

The east, where a lot of these.

[E]

Deposits are, suddenly the contract is invalidated.

[D]

It'S torn up, and we have to write a new one between the United States and Russia because these mineral deposits become Russian held assets.

[E]

You know, it doesn't make any sense. You've just, you've just concluded one board.

[D]

And room negotiation and sanctified, you know what it was agreed on and now you've basically forfeited by doing something else with, with a third party.

[E]

At the end of the day, I.

[D]

Still see a chance for Ukraine not to come away as successful as it should have come away, particularly in the last administration where I think we were a little bit too slow and too fearful of escalating with the Russians. And we gave them things too late, although they made ample use of them. I'm not in sort of end of the world mode yet. We are still providing arms, however indirectly and for whatever cost.

[E]

We have yet to lift sanctions. I don't expect Trump to impose new sanctions. Maybe he'll surprise everybody. Maybe he'll come out of this meeting deeply aggrieved with the Russians and hit.

[D]

Crippling tariffs on China and also escalate the sanctions regime against Russia.

[E]

But even if he doesn't, it's not.

[D]

The end of the world, right?

[E]

I mean, Europe gets a lot of grief.

[D]

But I want to read you a few statistics here because I think they're quite telling.

[E]

In the last six to eight months, you have seen two parts of Europe.

[D]

Step up significantly in terms of security assistance.

[E]

And also seeing the writing on the.

[D]

Wall that the United States was in a kind of recessional, not only pulling.

[E]

Out of Ukraine, but essentially trying to.

[D]

Relitigate, if not completely abandon the transatlantic relationship. I mean, we all remember JD Vance and Elon Musk interfering in Germany's election on behalf of AfD. Yes, a far right Nazi party that has seats in the Bundestag.

[E]

But the two parts of the of Europe that have done really a great.

[D]

Deal of good and they don't get enough recognition are the Nordic countries and.

[E]

The Baltic countries, individually, perhaps small, but collectively kind of powerful. So I want to read you the following just to give you a sense not only of what they're doing, but just how in stark contrast this is.

[D]

To the notion that Trump and his surrogates have pedal that, you know, the Europeans are a bunch of freeloading welfare queens who don't, you know, do their fair share here. Okay? Since January of 2022 and June 2025.

[E]

Denmark has spent 2.9% of its GDP.

[D]

On Ukraine, Estonia 2.8%, Lithuania 2.2, Latvia 1.8, Sweden 1.4 and Finland 1.3.

[E]

These are figures. These are percentages of GDP spent on a foreign country that are in excess of the percent of GDP that some European countries like Spain spend on their.

[D]

Own defense as part of NATO.

[F]

Right.

[E]

These are countries that are giving, emptying their stocks of all the weapon systems that they have but do not need.

[D]

Right now and understand are much better used on the battlefields of Ukraine to destroy Russian armor and personnel there so that the Russians cannot turn around and invade another European country in future.

[E]

There's a lot of kind of naysaying.

[D]

And you know, I get it, like.

[E]

Mark Rutte with his daddy comments, the way that the Europeans come across awkwardly.

[C]

Didn't love that.

[E]

Didn't love that. They come across awkwardly as two kind of deferential, if not slavishly devoted to keeping Trump in good odor. They're doing it for a reason, though, right? Which is, you know, decoupling from the.

[D]

United States or getting the kind of.

[E]

Security autonomy, as Macron has put it in place. It's like wheeling a tanker around in the ocean.

[D]

You can't just whip it around. You move it by degrees. Right. And it takes time and it takes energy.

[E]

So I. I have to give the Europeans some breathing space and some credit here. And. And again, the real test will be if Donald Trump puts a gun to.

[D]

Their head and says, you know, you have to sell out Ukraine, even though.

[E]

He has repeatedly said, this is your.

[D]

War or this is in your neighborhood, you should. You should sustain this. You should be responsible for it.

[E]

And they say, thank you, but fuck you.

[D]

We're not lifting sanctions.

[E]

We're only imposing more sanctions. And we will continue so long as this NATO mechanism is in place to buy American weaponry for the purposes of giving it to Ukraine. That's a good thing. That's a good thing. In.

[D]

In many respects.

[F]

Right?

[D]

Like we are telling an autocratic and corrupt American government that we appreciate everything.

[E]

You'Ve done for us for the last 80 years, but we'll take it from here. You know, and I've been advocating to the Europeans, you have to do this.

[D]

You know, you absolutely have to do this.

[E]

It's in your own interest, and it certainly is in Ukraine's interest. So I don't generally come across as overly optimistic on these things.

[D]

Okay, I'm loving it, but I'm not.

[E]

Again, if you just look at sort of the. The data, things could be so much worse for Ukraine than they are. They're not great and they're not rosy.

[D]

You know, again, I mentioned that Russia.

[C]

Had this kind of worse than they were in January breakthrough.

[B]

But.

[E]

But it's. It's not catastrophic. And if you query intelligence officials, if you query military analysts, they'll tell you the same thing.

[D]

It's. It's not catastrophic.

[B]

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[C]

Back to what you're saying earlier about what is actually happening on the ground, because I've seen some reports that there were additional Russian military advances that has been happening this week. They got behind in certain areas that talk about, talk about what's happening on the ground.

[E]

It's complicated along the contact line.

[D]

So the conventional wisdom has been that.

[E]

This sort of gray zone, which extends.

[D]

Several kilometers on sort of a no man's land between where the Ukrainians and the Russians are, particularly in Donbas, is so chockablock with drones that it was preventing any kind of breakthrough on either side.

[E]

So what the Russians have done, characteristically.

[D]

In the last six months to even maybe a year is rather than try.

[E]

To push heavy armor through, they send.

[D]

In guys on motorbikes or buggies, you know, two men, rapid, you know, assault.

[E]

Groups to try and probe and then.

[D]

Penetrate gaps or weaknesses in the Ukrainian defenses.

[E]

Well, they found one. Now, it's very unclear to me.

[D]

I've seen a very credible source called Deep State, which is a Ukrainian mapping service that kind of plots points.

[E]

They were claiming that basically the Russians cut a very narrow but lengthy sliver, possibly 7km, more than 7km right through from the Prokrosk direction, which has been.

[D]

A very Hot area on the battlefield. Pokrovsk is the one town that the Russians are seeking to capture. It's kind of the new Bakmut.

[E]

But I'm also seeing evidence, and the.

[D]

Wall Street Journal has reported that the Ukrainians believe that they have stabilized that situation. So it doesn't quite count as what you would call an operational breakthrough, but it was a penetration.

[E]

I mean, some of the, some sometimes.

[D]

When the enemy comes through like this.

[E]

They come through in too few numbers.

[D]

They don't have a supply chain or they don't have a logistics line behind them. And then the defenders can simply cut them off, right, and hit them in.

[E]

The rear and whatever. So that seems that something like that has happened, but optically it was, it was absolutely terrible, right, because here we are, you know, on the eve of.

[D]

This thing in Alaska, and it looks.

[E]

Like the Ukrainians are suddenly now on the back foot.

[D]

You know, this attritional war has now shifted to, oh, the Russians are, are moving forward.

[E]

So that gives ballast.

[D]

However illegitimate and however meritless, based on everything I've just told you to the.

[E]

Kind of MAGA argument you see, Ukraine cannot win in spite of all the.

[D]

Gazillions we've spent on, on supporting them, they're still losing. We have to do a deal. And Putin will have absolutely capitalized on, on this development, especially the way that the US Media has framed it going into this thing tomorrow.

[C]

One other just, I have under the umbrella of Russia shenanigans because we haven't brought this up.

[B]

Just a couple of other news items.

[C]

They're out this week.

[B]

There's a Colombian national, I guess, acting on behalf of Russian intelligence that carried out two arson attacks in Poland last year.

[C]

But just this week they're finally indicted and they said that this was in fact Russia. There's been a hack in. The US Investigators uncovered evidence that Russia is responsible for a hack of a computer system that manages federal court documents, including highly sensitive records.

[B]

I guess that part of the Russia op gets lost a little bit.

[C]

And even myself, I'm kind of like, well, you know, they're distracted in Ukraine and some of this other stuff that they're doing, this other meddling, you know, can. They cannot possibly be focusing on as much. But, but it. That does not seem to be the case.

[E]

Well, their, their army.

[D]

Their army is distracted in Ukraine, but their special services are. I mean, their raison debt is to mess with the west and do exactly these kinds of things. I mean, the group responsible, or the military intelligence service, the gruff is behind these sabotage operations.

[E]

And what they would do in the past is they would send their well.

[D]

Trained operatives into European countries such as the Czech Republic or Bulgaria. They would plant bombs in storage facilities where weapons and ammunition destined either for Ukraine or Georgia or in some cases the Syrian opposition were being stockpiled, and.

[E]

They would blow these things up. So committing acts of war, acts of.

[D]

State terror on EU, NATO soil, using officers of Russian military intelligence.

[E]

A lot of those officers, though, got.

[D]

Unmasked, including by my colleagues at the Insider for trying to poison Sergey and Julius Grupo for doing these kinds of bombings that I've just described.

[E]

So what have they done since the.

[D]

Full scale invasion in 2022?

[E]

They've taken a leaf out of the.

[D]

ISIS and Al Qaeda playbooks in that they're trying to remotely recruit assets in the west for money, paying them cryptocurrency, in some cases a couple hundred dollars, in other cases thousands of dollars.

[E]

Communicating with them on telegram and tasking.

[D]

Them with going and throwing a petrol bomb into a museum in Riga that memorializes Soviet occupation, or arsoning an IKEA warehouse in Vilnius, or, you know, in the case of Germany, planting incendiary devices, trying to plant incendiary devices on DHL.

[E]

Cargo planes and sometimes smuggled trinkets and even sex toys.

[F]

Right.

[E]

And they're finding willing assets or agents.

[D]

In the west who are desperate for money. They're not necessarily ideologically motivated. In some cases they may be.

[E]

But now what they've done, there's a department called Department E, and it's run.

[D]

By the GRU unit 29155, which did all of these kind of kinetic operations I've been alluding to.

[E]

And Department E is kind of a combination of the GRU and the old.

[D]

Soviet commentary or Communist International, in that they're looking for foreign nationals, not just in their own neck of the woods, but all over the world that they.

[E]

Can recruit, bring to places where they.

[D]

Can give them some modicum of training. Because they don't want to be complete amateur hour here.

[F]

Right?

[D]

Because with amateurs, you run the risk of things going sideways, blowing things up prematurely, a lot of collateral damage.

[E]

You want to have people who know how to build a bomb and how.

[D]

To install a bomb and how to work a detonator. So we're hearing and we're seeing evidence at the Insider. Where I work, they're recruiting Cubans, Venezuelans, South Americans, Africans who, I mean, as you may know, the Kremlin, the Russian Ministry of Defense, has actually given contracts to, I mean, peasants in Africa, telling them come to Russia, and you'll be like putting shampoo in bottles. In fact, they're coming to Russia and they're building drones and they're using children who are blowing their hands off and blowing themselves up because they don't know what they're doing. So it's very cynical.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And, you know, they're enlisting people to.

[D]

Commit acts of criminality, acts of state terrorism.

[E]

But, you know, desperate people will do.

[D]

Incredible things, particularly with, you know, anonymities they meet on the Internet.

[E]

So this is a very kind of.

[D]

Scary state of affairs.

[E]

And, you know, one of the things.

[D]

I would be advocating if I were in the White House or, you know, working for the intelligence community in the.

[E]

United States is anything that gets discussed with the Russians. You know, the first order of business is Russia needs to stop not only.

[D]

Its war in Ukraine, but its war against the west, which has been ongoing now for decades.

[E]

We like to dress this up in euphemisms.

[D]

Hybrid war, gray zone conflict, asymmetrical.

[E]

I just call it war.

[D]

I mean, you know, Gary Kasparov is.

[E]

Very Orwellian in a good way, about the use of language here. These are acts of war, and we.

[D]

Like to downplay them or kind of.

[E]

Act as these sort of unlikely legal.

[D]

Defense counsel for the Russians. Why? Because we're terrified of the consequences of admitting what's happening. Fear of escalation.

[F]

Right.

[D]

What are we going to do to the Russians in. In retaliation?

[E]

So, yeah, I mean, there are over 500 cases, some of them verified and.

[D]

Adjudicated by different jurisdictions in Europe, others.

[E]

Just highly likely it's the Russians behind them.

[D]

But 500 cases in the last few years that have been in exactly this attempts to blow things up or to do provocations and acts of subversion on European soil.

[C]

I'm curious when you're having these conversations with folks, particularly in Europe, developing thoughts on Israel, Gaza, and it definitely feels like the Europeans weren't exactly the biggest.

[B]

Advocates of Israel's actions in the war initially.

[C]

But if it feels like there's even been a notable change in their posture over the last month or so with the humanitarian issues in Gaza and the journalists that have been droned, I'm just wondering if you are noticing any change and how that might impact things geopolitically.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest.

[D]

Sort of bellwether to me recently was Germany saying it's not going to send weapons to Israel. I mean, Germany has been kind of the most pro Israel country in Europe. I mean, to a fault, you know, doing things like Disinviting authors and journalists who have been critical of Israeli occupation in the west bank from giving talks in German government institutions and, and things like that. And, you know, we all, I think, understand why Germany in, among other nations in Europe has sure taken this attitude. But if, if, if Mertz is.

[B]

Now you want to put a good.

[C]

Foot forward, if you're Germany.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, you don't listen to any misunderstanding. Wrong signals there. But, yeah, I hear you.

[F]

Right, right.

[D]

And now you have this, this sort of growing chorus, not just in Europe, I mean, Australia most recently, that they're going to recognize the state of Palestine, symbolically powerful, but materially isn't going to change much.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And another thing that, if I can.

[D]

Sort of tie the two themes of this discussion together, another thing that might have been slightly useful in, again, the sort of muddled and somewhat contradictory reporting about the preliminaries of the Alaska summit.

[E]

Is Steve Witkoff apparently is suggesting a kind of west bank administrative arrangement for Russia and Ukraine. Now, I, I can only advocate Steve Witkoff touring European capitals and saying, right, so what we want the Russians to.

[D]

Do is what the Israelis are doing in Palestine.

[E]

That'll go down.

[D]

That'll go down real well here. You know, like, again, you know, Dim Philbell steps on a rake.

[E]

Europe has been historically much more sympathetic.

[D]

To the Palestinian plight and cause than the United States is, although things seem.

[E]

To be changing in America as well.

[D]

Opinion is not what it, what it once was. And I think the Israelis recognize that as well.

[B]

Do they? They recognize it. Do they care?

[C]

I guess would be, is my question.

[E]

No, no, no. When I say the Israeli, I don't mean Netanyahu and his cabinet. I mean people who are certainly intelligence and military professionals of old.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

See that there is a massive international isolation taking place and they're blaming Bibi for it. I mean, they say you can't afford to lose some of these allies because without them, we're kind of lost, adrift at sea.

[E]

I think in some cases, Israel is a victim of its own military triumphalism.

[D]

And its successes in the region, particularly neutering Hezbollah, which was probably the cornerstone of its multiple theater wars.

[E]

What they did in Iran, they think that they, you know, they're the only game in town.

[D]

No one can sort of confront them or challenge them and that everybody will kind of fall in line. Well, no, it's not, it's not working out that way.

[C]

One more, just kind of tying the conversation together. Is the tariffs just as like, as one example here, Besant yesterday was Talking about how we've put secondary tariffs on India for buying Russian oil. They're trying to use the, the tariffs as a leverage point here in these negotiations ahead of Alaska. This has sort of thrust India into China's arms, creating other geopolitical issues. You can go off on that or just anything broadly that you're hearing about how the tariff conversation has impacted things.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, look, you know, I understand the point of view of those.

[D]

Who think Trump has not and will not ever do anything untoward to the Russians because he's either just feels it in his kishkas that Putin is the best friend he just hasn't made yet, or perhaps might be a Russian intelligence asset or whatever.

[E]

I mean, look, the bottom line is.

[D]

If you're going to really hit the Russian energy sector, you're going to have to put tariffs on China.

[E]

However, hitting India was sort of baked into the cake of the much touted.

[D]

And yet unrealized Blumenthal or Graham Blumenthal bill.

[F]

Right.

[D]

Which is meant to be this kind of neutron bomb of secondary sanctions which would impose 500% tariffs on any country importing Russian oil, gas, petroleum products or uranium. Well, India certainly qualifies in that regard.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And you've seen some reporting suggesting that.

[D]

The Indians are saying, well, okay, we'll back away from importing Russian oil or we'll pivot to American oil or whatever.

[C]

It is kind of funny.

[B]

It's like we're really, in order to show how strong we are in Russia.

[C]

We, we're really coming down hard on, on India.

[E]

Yeah, no, I, I, I get it. It's, it's a low order thing for Trump to do. He's, he's very, it's very easy for.

[D]

Him to beat up on our friends and allies.

[F]

Right.

[D]

And then eventually he kind of climbs down. That's why he's taco. He doesn't like going after our adversary or at least our great power adversaries. I would not qualify Iran as that. And that, I think, as I said earlier on your show or a previous episode, that was sort of a. Yeah. An invitation crafted by the Israelis to come. Water's fine. We've taken care of it. All right. So it was, it was the lowest order kind of military action for him.

[E]

But it does not look very likely.

[D]

That he is going to impose any kind of penalty on the Russians. And if the best outcome here is that he doesn't give the Russians any.

[E]

New freebies, he doesn't improve the state of their economy, which is right now in Tatters and he allows the Europeans.

[D]

To kind of inherit the mantle of this conflict, which, as I've said before, they. They have done to a large degree already. That's probably the best case scenario I can envisage. So, in other words, kind of benign neglect. Wash his hands if it. Move on to, I don't know, sending the Marines into Madison Square Garden or whatever. Like, you know, honestly, I. I just. It's. We have to be very realistic here. This is not a guy who cares about Ukraine at all. In fact, the opposite. I think he sees it as a. A liability and a burden, and he would like to see Russia as a great opportunity, but if only the Russians would agree with him on that.

[B]

All right, Michael Weiss, anything else around the world on your eyes. Anything I didn't ask you about. Anything you're. You're monitoring or just, you know, preparing for Anchorage.

[D]

Yeah, no, I've been kind of.

[E]

I've been trying to be as switched.

[D]

Off as possible while I'm on holiday here.

[B]

All right, well, I'm sorry for taking off of holiday and beautiful cache. Cash. People who have not been there. It's. It's spelled folksner. C A S C A I S. Right.

[C]

Cash.

[E]

Cash, yes. And I'm determined to mispronounce it even.

[D]

After I leave here, because I hear different things from different people, including the way my in laws pronounce it would probably get all Americans driven out of Portugal.

[C]

But I just had a. The most glorious afternoon there, and it was almost. It was bittersweet, actually, because I was just jealous I hadn't scheduled more time when I was there in Portugal. So I'm jealous of you.

[E]

This has become like a very popular.

[D]

Expat that country, because it's beautiful, the people are very friendly and warm, and it's inexpensive.

[E]

I mean, you. You will not eat a bad meal.

[D]

And you will not pay a lot of money for it. So I. I encourage all to come to Portugal. And no, I'm not being underwritten by the Portuguese Ministry of Tourism or Culture in saying that.

[B]

All right, That's Michael Weiss. Appreciate you for taking an hour on your holiday. Appreciate your wife.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

You know, kind of having to mosey around here.

[C]

No birds this time, but, you know.

[B]

We'Ve got people around.

[C]

You can only do so much.

[B]

And everybody else we've got. We've got an interesting guest for you tomorrow. We'll be doing some rhyming, and I think you'll be enjoying it, so come back for that.

[C]

We'll see you all soon. Peace.

[H]

Your mama's got nothing on me? Your daddy's got nothing on me?

[A]

And in the world that sleep and it's not a sea?

[H]

Has got nothing on me? No stars got nothing on me? Your son's got nothing on me? And the fool who sees it's the.

[A]

Beef, the leaves got nothing on me?

[H]

You know it's not because the light here gets brighter? And it's not that I'm evil? I've got a friend in the devil? But I can't even be your friend? I can't even be your friend? I can't even be your friend?

[A]

Sam I think it's a wound up but I feel alright and if I get to rest yeah that be nice When I shouldn't do it I still do it what you think got nothing to do with it. Before you were born I was already sick. Yeah when I get to work, when I work it out and I get to down I just shout it out I bet I'll have it all but the rest will do? And there's nothing against the sword I do you before you were born I was already sinning. It's not because of life where we tried.

[B]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.