Loading summary
Transcript170 lines
- [00:00]
Unknown Speaker
Foreign.
- [00:08]
Tim Miller
Hello and welcome to the Borg Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We're in carnival season. I'm in my James Carville rugby shirt. It's Muses Thursday. I'm delighted to be here today with a veteran Republican strategist, an OG, never Trumper. He worked for McCain, Schwarzenegger, Romney. Jeb might have heard of them. He's co host of Hacks on Tap and co director of center for the Political Future at usc. He also runs the EV Policy Project, an effort to end the partisan divide over electric vehicles. By now you figured out it's Mike Murphy. What's going on, man?
- [00:37]
Mike Murphy
Hey, man. Good to see you, Tim.
- [00:39]
Tim Miller
Good to see you. It's been too long.
- [00:41]
Mike Murphy
Yeah, yeah.
- [00:42]
Tim Miller
I also have a bonus segment for everybody in segment two, so stick around with Michael Fanone. It was going to be a YouTube only thing, but Fanon was so good.
- [00:49]
Mike Murphy
Yeah.
- [00:50]
Tim Miller
Yesterday the audio people got to hear it too. So stick around for Fanon because I know show business. I'm going to start with something here that both of us hate to admit and that the audience will hate to hear. Does that sound like a good way to start the podcast?
- [01:03]
Mike Murphy
Yeah. Yeah. Reach for the mute button, America.
- [01:06]
Tim Miller
But did you watch any of the cabinet meeting, the pay per view cabinet meeting yesterday? Did you catch any of it?
- [01:14]
Mike Murphy
I watched about 20 seconds on video before I started thinking about, I started thinking very bad thoughts. I mean, seeing Elon, that man child bouncing around in his Nazi tank commander outfit in the cabinet room of the United States, it just, it snapped me so I couldn't take anymore.
- [01:33]
Tim Miller
All right, well, good. Maybe our listeners would like to hear your opinion because I was about to give a wrong thought, which was the substance was gross. We'll get into that. But boy, I thought the PR was pretty good yesterday. And I just think that Trump being in that room had kind of a question time British vibe. He was insulting J.D. vance over in the cuck chair. You know, he was, he was taking all the questions. He seemed like he was kind of in command of the topics. He didn't seem lost. And obviously he says crazy stuff all the time. It's, it's Trump. But you know, you have wall to wall TV coverage. He's announcing things that I think are good. Again, substance aside, good marketing, like 5 million bucks if you want to come to the country, we'll pay down the debt with $5 million gold cards. It's huckster stuff.
- [02:22]
Mike Murphy
Right.
- [02:22]
Tim Miller
I just, I was like, right. It's hard to imagine Biden doing that. It's hard to imagine some of the other folks doing that. And, like, you can. Even though I find him just like you disgusting, I can only handle about 20 seconds. Like, it was a moment where I was like, I can see why people at least can be conned by this.
- [02:38]
Mike Murphy
Yeah. No, look, he. He is very fluent in the complicated language of moron, which many politicians don't speak. Well, they think they're getting trouble for it. So he feels like an authentic brush of fresh air because he gets there and he does his drunk uncle thing, you know? You know what else I don't like? Limousines. I'm getting rid of all the limousines, J.D. lose the limos. We're squaring this place up. So it's good, performative. And for his world, that hates politics, hates Washington, hates the establishment, kind of hates reading, writing and arithmetic. It plays great. So, yeah, they're hitting a lot of doubles at that. The thing is, this is a long game. So, you know, and it's pretty hard as, you know, as president, you get a pretty easy first hundred days.
- [03:21]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [03:21]
Mike Murphy
But then stuff starts counting. And if you deconstruct this, the guy was elected to fix the economy because people perceived, and that's all that counts in politics, that the economy was better when he was president, for all his flaws, than it was under Biden. It was old and crazy inflation, blah, blah, blah. So we'll see how it runs out. But in the short term, doing his card tricks and. Hey, Elon, I want you to. The toll booths. Get rid of them. Who wants to wait at a toll? Right, fellas. And they all clap like chimps. It's a good show.
- [03:52]
Tim Miller
Yeah, but.
- [03:53]
Mike Murphy
But the long game is the. Is the existential live or die in politics. And the long game, they're doing almost everything, in my view, wrong.
- [04:01]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it was a good show. It was crazy Uncle. Not. Not confused. And I guess I just think that is important, right? Like that he's old, but he doesn't look. He looked like, you know, he looks crazy.
- [04:10]
Mike Murphy
Not confused, but he's got a plan. And he's a barstool. Know it all. So we all know. We all know the Coast Guard, they don't do anything real. It's the Navy. So get rid of the Coast Guard, get the money, and charge the Canadians. We're guarding their coast, too. Billion a day. I like them. Half a million a day. Anybody writing this down, you know it's an act.
- [04:29]
Tim Miller
I only brought in guests during Mardi Gras season who I can just put a quarter in the machine and let them go, because I know I'm not. I'm not going to be at 100. So that's why we got the Murphy doing the shtick here. I want to get back to the economy stuff, but there was one ominous thing from the drunk uncle cabinet session yesterday, and I want to play that clip for everybody.
- [04:49]
Mike Murphy
Is it your view of your authority that you have the power to call up any one of or all of the people seated at this table and issue orders if they're around the phone?
- [04:59]
Tim Miller
Oh, yeah, they'll follow the orders. Yes, they will.
- [05:02]
Mike Murphy
No exceptions.
- [05:04]
Tim Miller
No exceptions. Well, let's see, let me think. Oh, yeah, yeah. She'll have an exception.
- [05:11]
Michael Fanone
Of course.
- [05:11]
Tim Miller
No exceptions. You know that. I gotta tell you, I was watching that live, suffering for you, and when he said, oh, let me see, she'll have an exception, like for a half of a second, for like a millisecond, I was like, oh, man, is he gonna acknowledge that Pam Bondi doesn't have to do what he says? And then he obviously is like, no, that was a joke. Actually, everyone does exactly what I say because I'm the K. And that is some pretty, pretty ominous stuff.
- [05:37]
Mike Murphy
Well, that's always the subtext is, you know, I'm just playing here because I'm el supremo. And of course you know him. In fact, you know what I like? I like the Charleston. Everybody dance. Dance for me right now. He's always a click away from that. So it's who he is. God help us.
- [05:55]
Tim Miller
Yeah, God help us for sure. When you get into wannabe Trillionaire hour here, a lot of news in the wannabe trillionaire class. Jeff Bezos yesterday at the Washington Post put out a statement about the plans for the Washington Post editorial page. He's fired the existing editor, David Shipley. I want to read a little bit from the Post here. He said, we are going to be writing every day in support and defense of two pillars, personal liberties and free markets. I'm with you there. We'll cover other topics too, of course, but viewpoints opposing those pillars will be left to be published by others. There was a time when a newspaper, especially one that was a local monopoly, might have seen it as a service to bring to the reader's doorstep every morning a broad based opinion section that sought to cover all views. Today, the Internet does that job. I am of America and for America and proud to be so. Our country did not get here by being typical. And a big part of America's success has been freedom in the Economic realm and everywhere else. I got a lot of thoughts on that, but what are yours?
- [06:51]
Mike Murphy
Yeah, it's not good. I mean, I'm a right winger. I'd like to see more classic conservative thinking on a lot more editorial pages. Post editorial page, though, actually over the last 20 years have been pretty good. Yeah, you know, it has not been a left wing wonderland as much as many other broadsheets to the extent there are any left. So it's troubling. You know, I can't figure out Bezos. I think I'm going to blame wife too, because, you know, I had lunch with him when he bought the Post. Long story. But I'm sitting there having lunch.
- [07:20]
Tim Miller
Just the two of you. I was like a group thing.
- [07:22]
Mike Murphy
No, it was, it was me, him and Carney. And so I had spoken at a CEO thing and he was the host of it here in Los Angeles. And he walked up to me afterward and said, hey, you want to have lunch? I'm like, sorry, don't have time. I'm seeing the zap guy. No, of course, of course. I want to let Bezos tell me about Amazon. I'm a customer. So. And it was interesting, but he was total technocrat, very curious about what to do with the Post. And I said, have some fun with Trump. Put undercover, do the old, oh, a Gloria Steinem thing. Put two reporters undercover at his hotel for three months, write about it, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he was eating it all up. He wasn't really ideological. It wasn't anti Trump, wasn't pro Trump. It was, how do I make a great newspaper? That is not the guy given these dictates. So I don't know what happened to him, but it's very depressing. I mean, the obvious theory is, oh, he's got business interests and all that, but these guys are often so rich. Who the president is not that material to the yacht fuel bill. Something else is going on and it's sad. And yet another institution buckles.
- [08:25]
Tim Miller
What I think is going on is the blue origin stuff, right? Like you need Trump for blue origin for space, and that's not really money. You do need the government to either fund it, deregulate it. Right. At some level, you need government involvement there. And so I guess maybe some worry about Trump, but also maybe he's been red pilled. I don't know his statement. At some level, if somebody came to me and said, I'm starting a new or I've taken over the Post and I decided to just get rid of the opinion Page together. A lot of great people over there. I would feel bad for them. I'd hope they'd find another job. But I would understand, like the argument, like a newspaper doesn't really need an opinion page anymore because of the Internet. Like that part of the argument for me works. Then the next step though, to say, well, we just need to imitate the economists. Well, the two existing editorial pages, we are going to ban all counter viewpoints in the name of freedom.
- [09:16]
Mike Murphy
That's the bad one.
- [09:17]
Tim Miller
Yeah, like in the name of freedom also.
- [09:19]
Mike Murphy
And then radio, you know, my frequency and nothing else.
- [09:22]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And then it's like, I also want to be unapologetically about freedom in the economic realm. Like says the person who is like, mouth is on the teat of the government in like so many different areas. I mean, like, think about all the ways that Amazon has, like, has tried to tilt the market in their favor with various regulations and local. You know what I mean? This is not Reason magazine here. Bezos hands aren't clean.
- [09:48]
Mike Murphy
It's just like Elon. He's the biggest corporate welfare profiteer in the world with a new libertarian super state. What propped up Tesla for years is selling credits to regular car makers to offset their emissions here and in Europe. Billions and billions of pure profits.
- [10:03]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [10:04]
Mike Murphy
If it wasn't for those regs, Tesla might not have made it.
- [10:07]
Tim Miller
Right. So it just kind of like feels like you're peeing on me and telling me it's raining. You know, it's one of those things. So if I felt like this was authentic, you could at least listen to it.
- [10:14]
Mike Murphy
Right. And he had that when he stepped on the endorsement, you know, that kind of put him in the. Okay, he's trying to put the fix in now. You know, there's a long history of guys buy papers and they get to be blowhards on the editorial page. But in this moment in time with an institution that's part important but also is struggling as opposed to, it's really troubling.
- [10:34]
Tim Miller
And it's also not going to help the businesses. Right. That's why it's just such an interesting thing. Like, it hurts the business. People are unsubscribing, by the way, if you've unsubscribed from the Post, the Bulwark plus is available. So it's not helping the business and it just doesn't make sense across any. And then also just morally and ethically, like the threat of Trump, you want people challenge, like to post this paper of record in D.C. should be challenging the status quo. Not like doing like, wink, wink, America first stuff.
- [10:59]
Mike Murphy
Right. And everybody there of any renown or weight is looking for a new job. There aren't a lot of new jobs, but it's going to be a talent train. I mean, I wrote Bezos a big fan letter yesterday because his antics have led my wife Tiff to give up using Amazon, which is the welcome development. I'm going to get killed for saying this. She's a listener. But it is going to hurt the business. Yeah. Just like Tesla's being murdered by Elon right now, both in Europe and the.
- [11:27]
Tim Miller
U.S. yeah, let's get into that. Let's get into Elon. I want to get your take with your ev hat on in a second. But just biggest possible picture thoughts on Doge and what Elon's been up to.
- [11:37]
Mike Murphy
In campaigns, you're always ranting about government waste because people think 30% of the money is wasted. And as you know, well, perception is reality. Now, there is plenty of waste in government, some places more than others. But sending interns in and chimps with chainsaws to try to get to the payroll computer and screw everybody over with no plan. No. You know, if they had announced that Brad Smith, who's part of doge, who I know, a very smart healthcare entrepreneur. Hey, Brad, Elon's going to use his relationship to get behind you guys, Come up with a smart plan to fix Medicaid. The fraud in California Medicaid alone would make Tony Soprano feel guilty and, like, not want to be part of it. It's unbelievable. But instead, they're doing the intern corps going into, like, usaid. One, it's no money, Two, soft power is really important. And three, it's full of CIA people. So, you know, on every level, it's stupid. They're laughing their asses off in China and Russia right now about all this. It's so reckless and dumb. But publicly, people like the idea of some sharp pencil person coming in and shaking up, quote, government spending. The problem are these guys are incompetent. And even the Trump appointees, who are not the Bureaucratic Operational hall of Fame, realize that he's screwing up agencies here. And so Doge is a good cause corrupted by arrogance, stupidity, and the lack of any plan at all. And politically, it's going to come back and hurt him.
- [13:03]
Tim Miller
Putting your conservative hat on. I ask everybody, what's a conservative disposition? This question on here, because I'm just trying to process it myself. Do you see any case for the idea that it's just like well, just slash 30% across the board, see where the chips fall. We'll fix it on the back end. And that's the only way to break up these entrenched interests that have gotten sclerotic. I don't know. I saw one of your old clients saw Meg Whitman at an event recently, and Meg was like, meg hates Trump. And so this was not a pro doge comment. But she's like, I've been in government the last few years, haven't been appointed by the Biden administration. There's definitely some room to cut, some room stuff. So I don't know, is there. Do you see any argument for that at all?
- [13:44]
Mike Murphy
There is, but I would like a modicum of intelligence on what to cut when you go where the money is, which is entitlements. Now, they're big and bloated for a reason. They have huge political support. That's what the Trump guys in his House budget. That's what they're going to spend the next 12 months discovering as we head to the midterm elections. Government is bloated because it form files function. People like bloated government. But, yeah, there's a smart way to do it. And if they think they can use their head of steam to take the political heat for cuts, I'm all for it. But I want a plan. You know, I kind of want to put the cops where the crime is. It's like we're going to attack a crime way. By sending the National Guard into Scarsdale, New York. Well, no. You know, there ought to be a little thinking to this, and there isn't. The only thinking is tactical. How do we screw the agencies? We get to the payroll department and we freeze the computer. This was Elon's old trick. Just stop paying bills. Takes people eight years to sue you. They'll just go away and eat the invoice. That's what he did at Twitter.
- [14:42]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And that's continuing. So Sam Stein has reporting for us in the newsletter this morning that there's a new round of global health cuts. Right. Like, so you got one judge that's putting a freeze on one set of cuts in various USAID and foreign programs, and that is now up to the Supreme Court. Roberts is looking at that. Meanwhile, they have not done what the judge told them. Like, they've continued to freeze the cuts that are initially froze. They're like, whatever, you know, come and make me, I guess, is Elon's point. And then they've added on top of it another round of cuts, including things they said they weren't going to cut, including pepfar, you know, the AIDS program that the W is so proud of.
- [15:20]
Mike Murphy
You know, American farmers are paid to make food, which they're great at, to ship to starving kids. There's half a billion of it rotting in ships on docks within a short truck drive of starving people right now. And you know what's going to show up next week if it hasn't already? The Chinese food. You know, the geopolitics of this, I.
- [15:37]
Tim Miller
Mean, honestly, that's how dark the situation is. That's like the best case scenario that the Chinese actually fill in, you know, because like they're like real deaths. We're trying to track down for YouTube later so people can look at it. But you know, Jeremy Kanindik, who led the US Government's response to Ebola, was posting just today about like how they. Again, this is one of those things where they said that they were gonna do a carve out for this, but there hasn't been any and these groups In Africa, the NGOs are just shutting down. So there's like real human cost to this for like, is there even any benefit, right? Like no real benefit, I don't think budget wise.
- [16:20]
Mike Murphy
No, no, it's part of the thing about he's cutting one of the dumbest things to cut and he's not getting any real money for it. That, you know, it's so scatter shot. It's chimp with the chainsaw stuff. And geopolitically soft power is important. And if we had a time where we don't really want to be retreating in that world because we got powerful bad guys on the march. So you know, this is the thing about Trump, he's got this perceived image as smart business genius when the truth is if he took his inheritance and he put it in an index fund, he'd be a lot richer. It's the relentless stupidity of Donald Trump that is the real tell though. You know, he built a television career on primetime and a cardboard set pretending to be a business tycoon, hiring and firing Gilbert Gottfried in the world of perceptionist reality pop culture. Wow, he really knows how to straighten things out. No, he doesn't.
- [17:14]
Tim Miller
So I mean, that takes us to the budget element of this, which is not Trump really because he's letting the guys on the Hill do this. But he's gonna, he's gonna be the one that ends up arm twisting if they're even able to get it through it. Squeaks by by one vote in candor since I Guess since you've mentioned your spouse, I, I didn't think they'd even be able to do the non binding budget. My husband was like, I think that they'll squeak it out. He's a lobbyist, so he's, he's the vote counter in the family. So he got, he got that one right. Kudos to him. But they squeak it out by one vote. Now they actually are gonna have to go do it again with, with the weight of law behind it and with like real details.
- [17:48]
Mike Murphy
Right. I mean this was the hard, but it's the easiest one because it's the least binding.
- [17:53]
Tim Miller
It's least binding and there's the least details.
- [17:55]
Mike Murphy
Right. It's the wish list.
- [17:56]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's wish you can say you can kind of ally the Medicaid thing. Like I saw Mike Lawler, the supposed moderate that never does anything moderate on tv, talking about like, well this isn't real Medicaid cuts, you know, it's just like we're cutting under HHS and we're going to find fraud and we'll see what the details are.
- [18:10]
Mike Murphy
It's directional, you know, it's an aspirational budget.
- [18:13]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [18:14]
Mike Murphy
And when do they get to the Senate, by the way, with the old dragons, they're gonna be, hey, wait a minute. I think in their easiest place, the House by one vote. They got their easiest thing done by one vote. Still something I would have probably bet against it, but not a lot of money too. So I would have lost a bet with your husband. But it only gets harder from here. I heard a savvy former Ways and Means Republican lobbyist, you know the tax writing committee in the House saying, well, Nelly got to kill. They got to decide between slashing Medicaid, which we've never been able to do because all the polls are afraid of it, or slashing the salt tax they want to give back that he's promised or making them eat his words on tax cuts. It's going to be fun to watch. They're putting their hands into two disposals.
- [18:56]
Tim Miller
Simultaneously or just juicing the debt by four and a half trillion. Which takes back to the Elon thing. Like even the budget that they put through. Right. Even with using kind of the MAGA Heritage foundation money counters who are, you know, like throwing some stuff under the couch cushions.
- [19:13]
Mike Murphy
Optimist.
- [19:14]
Tim Miller
Yeah, even they say it's, I think not. 865 billion is the, is the debt increase over 10 years. Like the real number is 3 trillion, probably maybe more. And just, just extending the tax cuts themselves. Or 4 trillion and then you sort of deal out the cuts. And so it's like they don't even have a directional plan towards cutting the deficit or debt. And so they're doing all these painful cuts in the name of cutting the deficit and then they're not going to do it.
- [19:42]
Mike Murphy
And they're doing top lines that are incredibly hard. Even if you squeezed all the waste out of Medicaid, you probably can't get there.
- [19:48]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [19:49]
Mike Murphy
You know the real, the reality of it? It's like the old Dennis Miller joke about judges. There ought to be three verdicts now because crimes are so horrible. Guilty, innocent and you're shitting me. And that's what this budget is or this budget framework, this non binding aspiration. So yeah, there's gravity in politics. It takes a while. That's the point Carville is making in New York Times today. And I'm like three quarters where he is, which is there's nothing wrong Democrats in the short term with retreating into the step and let them over advance and starve over time. Because I think in the whole price of eggs department that could be what happens. You ought to loudly peck at them.
- [20:28]
Tim Miller
You do think that's right. I was gonna get into the economy. But me and Carville, I'm in the Carville shirt so I can say it. I know I'm like not with them on this one. I think that what's the harm in just being monkeys with shit and throwing the shit right back in their face right now and seeing what hits? I'm kind of on that side of things.
- [20:48]
Mike Murphy
Well, my view is you can kind of do both tactically on a gnaw on them every day, but don't do it at haughty Democrat NPR language. Oh, you know what they did today? They laid off 100 baby food inspectors at Agriculture. What? You know, bumper stickers that people understand and peck away at him. But fundamentally knowing you don't have any power, letting him run wild for a while since you really don't have any option and you know, let him dig the hole that he is digging. I mean name an American politician that went crazy on Medicaid cuts and survived. You know, name a governor. So Carville's doing the old General Zhukov thing. Retreat into Russia and wait for winter. And I think that is true and gonna happen anyway. But I'm forced sniping all the way there.
- [21:34]
Tim Miller
You know, I agree with you that and on the language. I was just on with John Lovett over of Aponte America and we were doing this kind of discussion of the different Democratic strategies. We're going through the videos of what Democrats have been saying, and there's some AOC videos. And like, AOC has these two wolves inside of her. One is like, bartender aoc. And the Republicans make fun of her over that. But I think that's the right one. Right? Like, and then, like, the other one is like, tufts. Like, I'm in a tufts meeting of, of an intersectional activist group, aoc.
- [22:07]
Mike Murphy
Right.
- [22:07]
Tim Miller
And it's like, that is the one that, like, isn't landing, but I think that, like, bartender AOC Ruben Gallego was on the pod yesterday. I thought he was really good at this. Like, just speaking plainly about what they're. The harm they're causing, I think is the. Is the right path. Right?
- [22:20]
Mike Murphy
Yeah. In bumper stickers, people understand. People fired Biden and by extension Kamala because he thought he was a crazy old man who turned out couldn't run the economy. Well, guess what? Over time, Trump is a crazy old man who can't run the economy either. I mean, today he tried to announce he had another scary tariff tariffs are economic poison. They hurt his voters more than anybody, which is, of course, the sick irony of it all. So let Trump screw himself up, because you can't really stop his power right now. And snipe all the way in people language that they understand.
- [22:55]
Unknown Speaker
At Catholic Charities agencies nationwide, we are there is more than a phrase. It's a promise. When storms hit, Catholic Charities is there to help families and communities recover and rebuild. As neighbors age, they lighten their burdens through senior programs and residences that offer a sense of home and all its comforts. As veterans adjustments, Catholic Charities eases their transitions with housing, behavioral health services, and job training. To help them adjust, Catholic Charities is there, serving millions each year, regardless of their faith, local agencies know that every community is different and has different needs. They put food back on tables at pantries where clients can shop with dignity. They train and place local workers through career development programs that strengthen communities. They unlock doors to new homes and fresh hope. And they walk together with clients on the road back to a better life. Help Catholic Charities serve your neighbors in need and make communities stronger. Join them at WeAreThe Us. WeAreThere Us. That website again is WeAreThere Us.
- [24:08]
Tim Miller
I've been desperate to talk about what the economic trajectory is, and both of us are political hacks. So I'm going to have somebody that actually knows a thing or two that did better. I think I got a B minus in microeconomics 101 at GW. So we'll bring in somebody who's an expert. But just using common sense, I think that the economic trajectory right now is extremely shaky. And I was intrigued to see this clip from Steve Cohen, who's done very well for himself in the economy and is no far left lib finance guy. He was a big supporter of Christie and I think he even supported Trump in 16 doesn't anymore. But I want to listen play just a clip of him on a panel the other day that caught my eye.
- [24:49]
Steve Cohen
This is one of those moments where there's really a lot of uncertainty. I mean, tariffs cannot be positive. It's a tax. Taxes are never positive. On top of that, we have slowing immigration. And in addition, now you have Doge. Wherever you lay on the Doge issue, I mean, that's austerity. It's got to be negative for the economy. We think growth is going to slow to 1.5% from 2 1/2% in the second half. The reality is we've got a brew of sticky inflation, slowing growth and austerity in the government. And so I'm actually pretty negative for the first time in a while and it may only last a year or so, but it's definitely a period where I think the best gains have been had. It wouldn't surprise me. See a significant correction.
- [25:33]
Tim Miller
Sticky inflation, slowing growth and austerity. That doesn't seem like a winning package to me.
- [25:38]
Mike Murphy
Most of the economists would make exactly that argument. But it's back to the Trump paradigm. Tariffs are on the street, popular, because they sound smart. Well, why we got all that Canadian steel coming in here? Well, here's what actually happens. You put a 25% tariff on Canadian steel. Let's pretend you didn't go into politics. Politics save America. And you're running a Chevy plant, okay, in Oakland County, Michigan. Well, you're buying a lot of steel now. It costs 25% more. So you pick up the phone and call up U.S. steel in Pittsburgh and said, Hey, I need 50,000 tons of rolled steel. The Canadian stuff cost 25% more. Well, what does U.S. steel say? Well, our shit cost 25% more. We just raised prices. That's what steel now costs, smart guy. And by the way, because Chrysler's on the other line and Volkswagen from Tennessee, we don't have enough steel to fit to demand, so we're going to bump it up another 10%. You want your steel, you want to close your plants, smart guy, and it cascades. But on the street, it's like, yeah, screw them. USA number one. One third of Republicans indulge me for 20 seconds of car shit. One third of Republicans think the United States is the world's largest producer of automobiles. Another third thinks we're number two to Japan. Neither are true. China's number one, we're number four. So, you know, this USA number one thing Trump will say, we're going to build beautiful, new, beautiful steel plants. Fabulous. The best you ever seen. Takes 8 to 10 years. Good luck with the permitting. So this whole terror thing is anthrax for the economy. It's just going to be a mess.
- [27:12]
Tim Miller
Yeah, good luck. The actuarial tables on that, too. It is. And I guess my question is, are the Republicans on the Hill, whatever the John Thunes of the world, the ones that you might have worked for in a different era, are they drinking the Kool Aid? Are they wishcasting? Are they trying to just dream into reality, think positive thoughts, get positive outcomes? Because they could do some things that would limit the damage that Cohen laid out there, but it doesn't seem like they're really interested in that.
- [27:46]
Mike Murphy
Yeah, at least publicly they're not. I think privately there's a lot. I mean, I had no idea after 40 years running campaigns for a lot of senators and congressmen and all the rest that free haircuts in the US Senate were so damn seductive because we're not asking these guys to land on an beach, for crying out loud. But boy, oh, boy, they all line up. I had a conversation with one of my guys back in the day saying, you know, this guy's a clown and from a red state. And the senator said, oh, yeah, the other day, you know, we had to get the military aid to help him find Pakistan on a map book an hour. You know, he thought it was next to Mexico. It's really, really pretty bad. I said, well, why don't you tell him to go to hell? And he said, I'd love it. My wife would speak to me again. I like to be on you spouting off on television about Trump all the time. I love it. But here's the problem. I spout off against Trump, I get a primary, I'm gone. A guy in an Uncle Sam suit is now in my job screwing up all the little stuff that I do to help Barneyville get the new whatever. And I said, fair enough. What if three of you did it? He said, call me when you get the other two. I'm in. And, you know, survival is the fundamental rule of politics, unfortunately, because it's hard to get There. So I think the thunes of the world are hoping that they got bands calling them, saying, don't worry, we're talking about all the crazy stuff, except, of course, Ukraine, tariffs, war on Greenland. But they're just clinging to that hope that you'll get all his Yayas out and they'll be able to work some stuff out. But I don't see it.
- [29:19]
Tim Miller
And I guess they have gotten the delays in the tariffs. They kicked the can again yesterday to April 3rd or whatever, so who knows? We'll keep kicking that can till Baron's president, but it's getting to the point.
- [29:29]
Mike Murphy
Where the strong man can't, you know, okay, Superman, you keep saying you're going to lift up a locomotive and you keep delaying it. Carpal tunnel, but you ain't Superman, huh? You know, he's putting himself in a corner. And by the way, if the Canadians got really pissed, the entire US Midwest runs in Canadian oil. They could knock oil to 8 bucks a gallon in Ohio in a week. You know, just saying, trade wars suck.
- [29:55]
Tim Miller
I'm encouraging the Canadians to. To buck up. But I guess the rationale for that, for their pause on this makes sense, right? I mean, I was watch one of these funny spoof videos where it's a Canadian, like, pretending to be on the other line with Trump, and he's like, what do you want there? Oh, you just want a czar? He's like, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, we got. We got Teddy over here. We just made him the czar. All right, good deal, Mr. President. No problem there, right? Like what, you want a couple barrels of maple syrup? Yeah, done.
- [30:21]
Mike Murphy
10 more fighter planes and declare victory. But you know what the number one applause line if you're a Canadian on the stump running for prime minister is the old joke, how do you get 25 drunk Canadians out of a swimming pool? Hey, guys, please get out of the pool. But I've worked up there and I love Canada. But the great stump joke is, after all, we settled the tough half of North America. And the crowd goes wild. They're pretty tough bastards under all the smiles and politeness. So I hope it doesn't escalate. And they don't want it to. It's not in their interest. But I think Trump, like everything, sees a stereotype of Canada.
- [30:57]
Tim Miller
We got waylaid during the Elon section. I did want to get back to the ev side of things since you did some work on that. I mean, we were trying to figure what is happening with Bezos. And who knows, is it Blue origin is it. Red pill is it. I want to be the first next trillionaire. It's the second wife. It's a combination of all those things. Maybe Elon though is on the one hand, I mean he's getting richer and there's a story out today that I guess the FAA is potentially canceling a contract with Verizon and giving it to Starlink and to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. So definitely some corruption opportunities here. So he might get personally richer, he might personally have more power, but it is harming like Tesla, one of his babies, right?
- [31:40]
Mike Murphy
Yeah, yeah, we did. If you go to evpolitics.org, we do all this polling and we showed among people who say they're seriously interested in buying an EV in the next year, a small, but it's about 20% of the largest definition of the new car market. Toyota, Ford and Volkswagen we tested one German, one American, one Asian are all far more popular than Tesla. You know, among Harris voters, Elon's unfavorable is 76% and right as favorable is 5.
- [32:12]
Tim Miller
Yeah, room to grow there.
- [32:14]
Mike Murphy
Yeah, a little room to improve. And that was a while ago, that was after the election. Now it's worse, I'm sure. I don't know how much worse it can go. Among Trump voters, he's 70 over 10, he's right up there with the other president. So it's hurting him. But you know, again, Tesla's people say, why is Trump going after all the EV subsidies? It'll hurt Tesla and it will a little bit in the short term. But Tesla's most lucrative business is selling credits to other car companies that make gas cars and need to buy offsets. So he's in the Tesla business, not the category of EV businesses. And I think Elon thinks the future is not making cars. Well, it's making self driving cars and robots. And if you have a car that after you drive to work, you push a button and drives away to go be a taxi all day and make money and come back and picks you up, instead of running for one hour every 24, it'll run for 10. If we utilize cars like that in this future, people imagine we need a hell of a lot less cars. The problem is all that self driving stuff that Elon has convinced Wall street and that's why he's valued like a tech company, not like a car company that's coming byd. The big Chinese world killing car company just announced. Yeah, we're going to give it away for a buck in Every car. So there goes that five grand a car, pure profit thing Wall street was betting on for Elon. You know, I'm in this because I'm from Detroit and the American auto industry, the American manufacturing auto industry, which is Volkswagen in Tennessee, Ford in Detroit, et cetera, et cetera. Mercedes could go away in a decade. People don't understand how big this is.
- [33:46]
Tim Miller
Really. Tell me more.
- [33:47]
Mike Murphy
Well, the Chinese can, if we let them, they can import a great $30,000 electric or gas car in that is essentially equal or better to anything you can buy in the market. Now, the president of Ford is one of those visionary guys in this. Jim Farley, about eight months ago, went over to China and drove a Zomi SU7. Catchy name, very popular new car. And he loved it so much, he had it stuffed in a shipping container and shipped it to Detroit and drove it around Ford and let his executives drive it for six months. He doesn't want to give it up. It's the only one in the country on a temporary plate. The feds are probably going to seize it. He said, if we can't make one of these in a few years, there's going to be no more Ford Motor Company.
- [34:26]
Tim Miller
What does he like so much about it? Like what is.
- [34:28]
Mike Murphy
Well, the software is really good. The cost of production. They design their cars to be cheaper to make. Kind of like Tesla does.
- [34:35]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [34:35]
Mike Murphy
The battery tech is more advanced than what we have right now, though. We're catching up then. They pay their auto workers 10 bucks an hour.
- [34:42]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [34:43]
Mike Murphy
So they're very competitive vehicles. The Mexican car market has been the, the canary in the coal mine. Four years ago, China sold 40,000 cars in Mexico, Gas and electric combined. This year they're probably hit half a million.
- [34:56]
Tim Miller
Wow.
- [34:57]
Mike Murphy
They're eating the market there. They've already eaten it in Israel. They're in Europe. They're. They're everywhere but here. And Trump thinks, well, we're just have the American market. America market is only 10% of the world market. GM sells as many cars in Asia as they do in the United States. So if our guys can't compete worldwide, where the trend is unstoppably and undoubtedly electric, you know, we're going to be British Leyland. The government will be propping up a couple of companies that will be minor players in the world. So this is a huge issue.
- [35:26]
Tim Miller
I didn't mean to go deep on this, but you've intrigued me. I don't have a ton of hope that this administration is going to do some smart domestic industrial policy, but what would be the best thing to do to help us compete?
- [35:36]
Mike Murphy
The Biden stuff had typical bureaucratic ham handedness in it, particularly the charging subsidies. But the loans to build new extremely competitive high tech factories like Ford Sting. And by the way, these guys don't pay me. I do this for free. I'm the donor here because I care a lot about it. The new Rivian plant, 9,000 manufacturing jobs in Georgia. Those loans to build those plants to compete are vital and Trump should leave them alone. The other thing is the consumer subsidies. You want a great car, you can go get an electric car. Basically 200 bucks off a month in lease because Uncle Sam gives you 7,500 bucks. Now, I'm a Republican, I don't like subsidies. But there are 99 car companies in China and only a couple of them make money because the government has said we don't care about making money. Build factories and take over the world market. That's your job. So our guys and our allies in Germany or South Korea or Japan are competing against guys who don't have to make money. So we need subsidies now to muscle up and catch up our domestic stuff to make them world competitive and to support our ally company. BMW makes more cars in their biggest plant in their entire systems in South Carolina. So this is a US NATO, South Korea, Japan, axis. And everybody's getting their lunch eaten, including Elon, by the way. His biggest plants in China and BYD is eating Tesla's lunch there.
- [37:01]
Tim Miller
This whole fact pattern though leads me back to like, Elon really has lost his mind, you can argue, right, because he's corrupt. A corrupt Elon, which would not be good in there, would be doing things necessary to go after China, be aggressively to go after China and to work with the Japanese, South Koreans, et cetera. Like our axis, right on international relations, we're like doing the opposite, kind of. And we've put these tariffs on China, so I guess that's true. But Elon is alienating the markets that would be potentially open to his product.
- [37:37]
Mike Murphy
He is and he isn't. He's alienating the Germans. He's had an 80% sales drop there in Europe. But the Chinese own Elon. That's the other little. His largest plant is in China. And that government can decide tomorrow. It's now people's plant number five, Elon. They let him build it on a waiver. He did not have to do the joint venture stuff. They own the paper on him.
- [37:59]
Tim Miller
So here we are again, the Democrats. This is why the Democrats have to go in On China Hawking. People don't get it. The fact that Elon is on the take from China and pretends to be a free speech warrior on the same time. And I was just writing about this this morning, that there's this Chinese crypto guy who I've talked about here, Justin sun. And Justin sun put in tens of millions into Trump's. One of Trump's cryptographs and he's a fraudster. He's a Chinese crypto fraudster being investigated by the sec. Excuse me, he was being investigated by the SEC until this morning. There's a new press release out that shock the guy that put all this money into Trump's crypto grift. They're trying to come to a deal, so we'll see how that shakes out.
- [38:36]
Mike Murphy
Yeah, he's innocent. We found out.
- [38:38]
Tim Miller
It turned out we were wrong. The amount of China corruption in this administration, I don't think it sunk in with people. All right, I have a couple other things. Really quick. We'll do a little round the horn of the clownery. I guess we'll go. Saddest to funniest. Saddest. We had unvaccinated school age child die of the measles yesterday in Texas rfk, our new HHS secretary who spread measles vaccine disinformation not too long ago yesterday, during that, during that cabinet meeting, said basically, yeah, there's a measles outbreak all the time. Like we're on it.
- [39:10]
Mike Murphy
No, it's heartbreaking. A lot of the Trump stuff hurts places that vote for Trump more than anything else. And we have a measles hotspot now and it'll grow. And we got a guy. I would rather try voodoo running hhs. It's disgusting.
- [39:25]
Tim Miller
Our new FBI director, Cash Patel.
- [39:28]
Mike Murphy
Oh, God. How about his deputy, too? They got a radio blowhard who, you know, used to guard the president's dog.
- [39:34]
Tim Miller
Are you concerned about that? I have a funny news item I want to share, but what's your level of concern about?
- [39:40]
Mike Murphy
We have the only plainclothes national secret police of any superpower that are good guys. Generally, when you have the federal government has a plainclothes national secret police, it's the trouble instrument. And we've gone to great pains because the Hoover era had some trouble. But that culture has been cleaned up. It's highly professional, it's really important. And I think the culture is so embedded there it'll survive this. But we're going to pressure test it now and it's a horrible insult to the rank and file professionals in that agency. So it's heartbreaking. Luckily, some of these guys are stupid and incompetent, which gets in the way of their banality, but it's terrible. Now, do I think I'll get hauled away in the middle of the night? No, no, no. But the FBI is going to go into an internal turmoil there now, which is bad for them and bad for. For the country. Yeah.
- [40:33]
Tim Miller
Speaking of the venality, I enjoyed this story this morning from Evan Perez at cnn. Here's the nut graph. FBI Director Cash Patel walked into his new office on the seventh floor HQ and made an immediate order. So that's kind of ominous. I was nervous when I read that sentence. I was like, oh, is he coming after, you know, is he coming after Comey? What's the immediate order? He wanted new carpeting and window coverings. He called the office dingy. So there you go. Doge in action.
- [41:00]
Mike Murphy
That's right. Yeah. No, you can't run a police state with a shitty office, you know, come on. The enemy's list board alone takes up 8 square feet on the wall. It's like the thing where Trump ordered. I can't forget which lick spittle got it. But he wants $200 million ad campaign thanking him for the border. I'm like, Where's Doge? Whereas $200 million bonfire to have Trump, you know, doing political ads on the government payroll.
- [41:27]
Tim Miller
Yeah, we can't give rice to starving people in Africa, but we can do a great job, Mr. Trump ad campaign. All right, my last topic. Moving on to the Democrats, to your governor. We have a new competitor, you know, hacks on Tap and the Bloor podcast. We have a new competitor in the podcast space, and I want to play the sizzle reel from this upcoming competitor.
- [41:45]
Gavin Newsom
We need to change the conversation. And that's why I'm launching a new podcast. And this is going to be anything but the ordinary politician podcast. I'm going to be talking to people directly that I disagree with, as well as people I look up to. But more important than anything else, I'll be talking directly with you, the listener. Real conversations. What's going on with the cost of eggs? What are the impacts, real impacts to you around tariffs? What power does an executive order really have? What's really going on inside of Doge? Look, there's an onslaught of information that we take in, so let's take it to the sources without the typical political mumbo jumble. In the first few weeks, we're going to be sitting down with some of the biggest leaders and architects in the mega movement. This is Gavin Newsom.
- [42:34]
Tim Miller
All right, so the ad there is corny, but I'm going to give you an opinion that's going to shock you, Murphy. I'm going to give you an opinion that's really going to shake you. I think this is a great idea, actually. I've got a lot of concerns with Gavin, and, like, we could do it. He's slick. The ad. That ad's too slick. But, like, actually talking to MAGA people and having him use his slick skills to put Baby in a corner, to put Bannon or whoever the hell wants to take him on in a corner, I think it's probably smart, right? No, I don't know. What do you think?
- [43:03]
Mike Murphy
Well, I. I'm glad to know that he's breaking all the rules. You know, I'm looking forward to the backwards cap. You know, he's taking it to the streets. He's. Is that the man? Yeah, yeah. You know, it's just the problem. He is so transparent that that's where he gets in trouble. So, you know how I'm going to save America? I'm going to argue with MAGA guys to impress Democratic primary voters so I can run for president, but it's really about America. It's not about me. So, you know, it's like when he went down to Alabama and put up a billboard, I hate you rednecks. You know, some. I mean, it's just. So that's the problem. I think it doesn't pass the. Oh, it's like the gimmick where my campaign's not about politics. You know what our bumper sticker is? No bumper sticker, man. You know, and it reeks of that. That said, who knows? I think this was inspired by Buddha Judge, because, like, hey, that Pete guy's a talker and he goes on Fox and does well. Yeah, I'll recreate that and I'll argue with MAGA people on a podcast that I don't know. You know, I'm for podcasting. Hope it does well.
- [44:07]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Welcome to the frame, Murphy. Who knew that we had the prime job? The governor of California, senator from Texas, Ted Cruz. Matt Gaetz is a podcaster now. Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman have a podcast. I just keep looking at the charts to see when one of them will pass us. Not yet, but a lot of podcasts.
- [44:23]
Mike Murphy
I'm willing to trade. By the way, he can have. I'll take governor of California. I got some ideas.
- [44:29]
Tim Miller
I'm in on that trade.
- [44:31]
Mike Murphy
God Bless them.
- [44:31]
Tim Miller
You know, I'm with you. Obviously, it's very transparent. I just think engaging the MAGA people, like the period of time in history where it's do not platform these people, pretend they don't exist. Other them, I like othering them. I don't think they should be invited to parties. I think that you should neg them and not give them the acknowledgment they deserve. I'm for all that, but the just pretending they don't exist didn't work. And engaging and arguing with them, I think makes sense in some level, depending on how the execution. We'll see.
- [45:01]
Mike Murphy
Yeah, we'll see how it goes. But try it, you know, pull them out. Ridicule again. While all the noise is going on, all the fundamentals that make or break presidents, the Trump guys are screwing up. Yeah. So time compounds. And if the Dems can have a good off year despite their stupidity. You see what the D trip leader put out, that thing in National Journal. A bunch of Democratic consultants send it to me, frothing with rage. The new head of the D trip and I apologize, don't remember her name. She's a member from somewhere. Member of Congress. The lead of the story is, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. I'm very proud that 49% of our vendor money was, you know, minority owned. It was all identity. And we're going to double it this year. That's the way to win, you know.
- [45:45]
Tim Miller
And I was like, christ, they never learned, Susan. They never learned. She's welcome on the pod. She's Washington, first district. I hear you last thing. Okay. We've been mean. We picked on Gavin. I don't. I'm open to the Gavin thing. It wasn't mean, actually. I'm open to. I want to see how it goes. We picked on them a little bit.
- [46:00]
Mike Murphy
Let him take the. I've been disappointed with his tools. He could have done more here, and he's been very cautious.
- [46:06]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [46:06]
Mike Murphy
You know, you can say Jerry Brown's crazy. He was a very dynamic governor here.
- [46:10]
Tim Miller
That's true.
- [46:11]
Mike Murphy
Did a lot of stuff. Gavin's been kind of like, I better check the focus groups and when's the next flight to Concord, New Hampshire?
- [46:17]
Tim Miller
I don't think we can have Jerry Brown in 2028. So I'm not asking to do the 2028 hot stove, but are there any Democrats out there that you're just saying, like, oh, I like what they've been doing. Is there somebody that jumps out at.
- [46:27]
Mike Murphy
Yeah, Gavin's got skills. And if you're from California, you're from the future. Maybe they're looking for that. But you got the Harris problem, which is the last California experiment. At least in the party, conventional wisdom didn't work. Buddha judge is always a superstar. Gretchen Whitmer is an election winner. I mean, there are some new gen Dems out there. You know, you can get into Shapiro. I mean, there's a long list and a big bloody don't rig the calendar. Democratic primary would be great for the Dems, but, you know, don't rig the calendar.
- [47:01]
Tim Miller
Mike Murphy, thanks for coming on the pod. His pod is hacks on tap. He's an EV man. He's won some elections and he's out there in California trying to hold it down. There it is.
- [47:11]
Mike Murphy
I'm sending you a hat man. Send me your address.
- [47:14]
Tim Miller
Do you have a flat brim? I'm a flat brim man.
- [47:16]
Mike Murphy
We'll have one made up. Our people in China make good hats when they're not making cars.
- [47:21]
Tim Miller
All right, we'll see you. Mike Murphy up next.
- [47:23]
Mike Murphy
Good to be on Timmy. Good to see you, pal.
- [47:25]
Tim Miller
All right, up next, Michael Finnell. Hey, guys, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark. I'm delighted to be here with a glowing Michael Fanone. I mean, the dude like went through some shit and I'm just, I'm over here just monitoring his skin care. What's going on, Finon?
- [48:00]
Michael Fanone
You know, just living the dream, man.
- [48:02]
Tim Miller
Yeah, well, not exactly, you know, Fanon was with me. I was with him, I guess. Better. I was hiding behind him at the principal's first conference over the weekend when Enrique Tarrio and some of these fuckers who led the attack on the Capitol, you know, came and tried to menace people, tried to pretend to be tough. He brought his little five foot two friend, the MAGA Marauder. And then the next day, obviously there was a bomb threat. We don't, we don't really know the origin of. I mean, man, like, how do you process all this like that these guys are running around like creating trouble after, you know, you live through what they did a couple years ago.
- [48:37]
Michael Fanone
Well, first of all, I mean, I think it's important to kind of understand who they are. I mean, specifically the Proud Boys. This was an organization that we saw pop up, you know, during Donald Trump's first presidential campaign. And you know, really where they kind of came into their own was they would violently attack anyone who was opposed to their viewpoints. And they are very much so embedded in the. In The Maga movement. Enrique Tarrio kind of emerged as the leader of the group or self proclaimed leader of the group. He was the one that showed up at the principal's first summit. But he, it seems to me, has, you know, kind of different motivations. He's not somebody that likes to get his hands dirty. What he likes to do is create these viral moments, put them out on social media to build his brand, build his profile, and then try to sell people shit. Sell the Proud Boys swag, Sell, you know, the hats and the T shirts and ammunition magazines that are embroidered with the, you know, Proud Boys logo. So for me it seems as though his motivations is. Are monetary. And he brought along, like you said, his little. The midget Menace. Ivan Ranklin. They show up, they look like cartoon characters. He wears his little uniform, the Proud boys uniform. He's got his sunglasses on that he wears indoors. But everybody's wearing a body worn camera. They're flanked by their little right wing media guys with their cameras out recording the entire thing. Like I said, they're looking for a viral moment and they're also looking for somebody. Bait somebody into an interaction which they could sue them. Whether it's threats or whether it's some physical confrontation. I mean, that's really what, at least in my mind, what that event was all about. And it's interesting because, you know, as a group that places masculinity in very high regard. You know, where I'm from, the least masculine thing you can do to settle a dispute is sue somebody.
- [50:48]
Tim Miller
I don't know. Actually it might be even less masculine to try to settle a dispute by having a flunky videotape you for TikTok while you yell at somebody. An influencer beef. I don't know. That's not exactly tough guy material either. Really.
- [51:06]
Michael Fanone
I guess it would have been cool if we had like a dance off.
- [51:08]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Zoolander, how do you though process that? I mean, look, I'm trying to put myself. It's hard for me to put myself in your shoes because like on the one hand, like what you're saying now is very even keel and correct. Don't give these guys what they want, right? Which is some like little clip that he can use to get attention, to sell things to the incels that think that he's tough and sit in their basement, et cetera. Don't do that. On the other hand, fuck these guys. They instigated the violent attack on all of you who are just doing your job. And so maybe they need to taste to Their own medicine.
- [51:49]
Mike Murphy
Right.
- [51:49]
Tim Miller
I understand the second impulse that has to be a little tough to restrain.
- [51:55]
Michael Fanone
Yeah, no, I mean, listen, I was a cop for 20 years, so it's not the first time that somebody's called me a mean name.
- [52:02]
Tim Miller
Yeah, or tried to bait you.
- [52:03]
Michael Fanone
Right, yeah, exactly. That being said, I mean, you're right. Like I'm of the mindset that the appropriate emotions to be feeling right now are anger and outrage. And so I met that moment with anger and outrage. And I told Enrique Tarrio exactly what I think about him. And quite frankly, I told him who he is. And he is a convicted seditious conspirator and a traitor to this country. And that was it. And I also called Ivan Rankine a bald headed bitch, which is also what he is.
- [52:40]
Tim Miller
True. Accurate. It's important to be accurate when you're leveling criticisms, particularly on the Bulwark. So I played a clip of you from when you're on stage. So folks who don't have the backstory. So this is an event with a bunch of different panel discussions. You and Harry Dunn, Akil Gannel were on stage kind of discussing January 6th. That was before these guys showed up. When you were up there, you talked about how the pardons were in part motivated by Trump wanting to have, you know, some muscle, wanting to have some people out there that he thinks will, you know, create trouble on his behalf and, you know, have his own militia or whatever. How do you kind of balance like that impulse with, like the performative side of it? Like, you know, how much of it do you think is like, real nefarious? People should be scared. And how much do you think is performative? I guess is my question.
- [53:35]
Michael Fanone
First of all, I think people should be extremely concerned. I mean, you just can't let that fear paralyze you. But, you know, make no mistake about it, these are violent extremist groups. The Proud Boys, the oath keepers, the 3 percenters. They use the tactics, the same tactics of the brown shirts in 1930s and 40s Germany. They harass, they intimidate, and they use violence to suppress anyone that may have opposing viewpoints to their own. And going back to the pardons, Donald Trump, in pardoning hundreds of violent insurrectionists, many of whom were members of these right wing extremist groups, created his own civilian militia, an organization or organizations that can go out and commit acts of violence on his behalf, who now feel emboldened to do so because they feel that if they do that Donald Trump will simply pardon them. They will face no criminal accountability. And so I think Americans most certainly should be concerned. They should be angry, they should be outraged. They should be raising this at every town hall meeting, calling their members of Congress, calling every elected official, you know, in their district and letting them know that this is absolutely unacceptable.
- [54:59]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I was talking to Ryan Goodman about the legal side of this yesterday, but like there was on these pardons, there was another like situation where one of the guys that got pardoned when the police went to his home, he had grenades, he had a sawed off shotgun, he had some other illegal weapons, he had some classified documents I guess he took from the army. And the DOJ issued a statement yesterday that said, nope, all that stuff is also included in the pardon. That speaks more to your point about how he wants these guys out here menacing people. The idea that if the notion was just, oh, I want people to have a clean bill of health, what happened on January 6th, because I thought it was B.S. obviously I disagree with that. But like, if that was the only intention, then you wouldn't have your Department of Justice saying, oh, I also want to cover this guy who had grenades at his house.
- [55:46]
Mike Murphy
Right.
- [55:47]
Michael Fanone
It also speaks to the seriousness of, you know, some of these individuals intentions. I mean, this is someone who has grenades in their house.
- [55:54]
Tim Miller
You got any grenades over there?
- [55:56]
Michael Fanone
I don't have grenades. I wouldn't tell you if I did. Weapons charges for people that are prohibited from possessing firearms. I mean, all of that stuff should be deeply concerning to every average, everyday Americans. I mean, you have an active, you know, extremist groups who have found an ally in the President of the United States. I mean, that's absolutely insane.
- [56:22]
Tim Miller
Not to get too personal, but I do have to ask because the reports are out there, but like, these guys are also coming for your mother. Is that, Is that true?
- [56:29]
Michael Fanone
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, pretty much every member of my family, my immediate family, has, has suffered these threats and harassment. My mother seemed to have bear the brunt of it. You know, she's been swatted in recent months. She had a confrontation with an individual that confronted her while she was raking leaves in her front yard, screamed at her that her son was a traitor and threw shit on her. She's had bricks thrown at the house. And you know, again, after Enrique Tarrio and his merry bunch of men showed up to the principal's first summit, you know, obviously the principal summit was targeted with a bomb threat the following day. And my mother's house was also targeted with a bomb threat in that same bomb threat. And then, since then, in the past 24 hours. All of my immediate family has received harassing phone calls, threats, and other forms of harassment. So it's become a family affair.
- [57:32]
Tim Miller
Man, how do you keep even keel on this stuff? Like, I'm like, the rage is building up inside me right now. The idea that somebody would come for your mother, I just. I don't understand, honestly, like, how you control it.
- [57:47]
Michael Fanone
I mean, when I'm engaged, I'm engaged. When I disengage, I completely disengage. I try to keep my world very small when I'm not out attending these summits and interacting with people. But also, I mean, I'll be honest with you, Tim. Like, having opportunities like the bulwark to come out and talk about these things is incredibly cathartic for me. And it makes me feel like I have the ability to affect some change or at least let people know what the hell's going on in this country. Because so many Americans are indifferent or oblivious. You know, only now are we starting to kind of see what's in store for all of us. Regardless of who you supported in the last election, Donald Trump doesn't give a. You know, he's going to do what he's going to do, and that's it. And so, you know, maybe now people will start to see that this behavior is unacceptable.
- [58:42]
Tim Miller
Well, man, you can have a platform with us anytime to vent. Doors always open for venting. Because I just, man, I got a lot to get off my chest. I didn't go through any of the shifts that you went through. But these fucking pussies, man. I just. I can't fucking take it. I just. They, they're so loathsome and so cowardly, but we can. We can vent about them more another day. I wonder if we could rant on one other thing while I got you, though, because if we're to do politics and affect change, one group that the Democrats have really struggled with in convincing about the negative side of the MAGA movement is guys like you like to be. For lack of a better description, right? Like, it looks like you got a little American flag back there. You worked in law enforcement. A lot of law enforcement people went for Trump. You got tats. I assume you know your way around Zen or some chewing, you know, some dip. Like, you know, you might know some MMA fighters. Like, these are the guys that have been moving more and more towards Trump and maga. And so I just wonder, like. Like, why do you think that is? And do you think that there's some kind of message or some kind of way, manner of speaking that might like break through about the kind of nefarious shit that they're supporting. Because, like, I'm not talking about the dudes with the red hats and like, there's some people that are unreachable. I'm talking about the more of like the non political, you know, kind of guys, working class guys that have been drawn in by Trump.
- [60:09]
Michael Fanone
Yeah, I mean, and this really does apply, I think, to all politicians prior to Donald Trump's arrival on the scene. But there is always this, you know, very kind of over educated, elitist, condescending speak that was used when, you know, when addressing the American people. And it seemed that there was more and more and more of a disconnect between politicians, whether at the local level or the national level and the people that they were there to represent. I mean, for me, where Democrats, you know, completely lost me and I was always very apolitical. I voted for both political parties. But I think when I started to, to pay attention was to defund the police movement. You know, I was a cop for 20 years. I understood policing and our relationship with the communities and I knew that there was work to be done. I certainly thought that it was worth having a conversation. And then I saw, you know, the Democrats really just, instead of having the conversation in a productive way, they used it to bash cops to try to get votes. So for me, that, that was it. And unfortunately, when it comes to applying that to today, the Democrats really, they've kind of taken this. We're just going to sit back and see what happens or let Donald Trump destroy himself, so to speak, as if we haven't learned the lesson over and over and over again. That's never going to happen. For me, it's disheartening because I'm somebody like yourself who's so avidly against what's happening in this country at this moment. And to watch, I guess the only political party that still is concerned about democracy sit back and wait and watch. It's pathetic.
- [62:04]
Tim Miller
Obviously I agree with that and been banging the drum on that back to the defending the police thing because then thinking about, okay, let's be constructive, right? Like how do you break through? And I don't know if like FBI agents are not as, whatever sympathetic as regular cops. Right? Like it's a little bit, it's a little different, it's obviously different than somebody, it's like a neighborhood cop. Right. But still, like it's the Republicans right now that are over cops, at least federal law enforcement. Right. And I do Feel like at some level there's got to be a way to break through with folks by talking about just like the damage that they're doing to federal law enforcement, to vets like who are losing their jobs to regular, you know, people say like, oh, federal government employees, bureaucrats. And like they picture some like sky in a suit on K Street. But like there are a lot of people work for the federal government that are working class people, you know, wondering if you think there's kind of an opportunity there.
- [62:58]
Michael Fanone
I mean, unfortunately, you know, I've been out here for four years and I really think that what's going to have to happen is it has to impact individual Americans lives. It's got to impact a friend or a family member or yourself or your spouse. I mean, I've, I've been on the phone, you know, for the past week with dozens of friends who have either been laid off from their federal jobs or fired from their federal jobs or you know, whatever the hell Doge is calling it. Dismissed. And you know, that obviously is resonating with people when they can't put food on the table and they can't support their families. And then, you know, to add insult to injury, they're being villainized for being a part of some, you know, government agency scheme.
- [63:45]
Tim Miller
Fraud. It's all fraud. They're defraud.
- [63:47]
Michael Fanone
They're stealing USAID workers that have dedicated their lives to, you know, doing things that are super fun, like going to third world countries to deliver bags of rice to starving people. You know, they're lunatic leftists that are, you know, destroying the fabric of our country and they have to be purged. It's insane.
- [64:08]
Tim Miller
Insane. All right, we're going to be bringing you back. I want to pick your brain on this as in a feat GW grad that lived in the Denver suburbs growing up. Sometimes I do my best, but I feel I've got a cultural gap sometimes with some of these folks, some of these voters that we're struggling with to convince. So I want to bring you back, chat about that and unfortunately I think there's going to be fucking more news on the law enforcement front and the pardon front and the proud boy front. We'll have plenty of plenty of things to talk about. All right, bro.
- [64:38]
Michael Fanone
All right, man. Look forward to it.
- [64:40]
Tim Miller
All right. Thanks so much to Michael Fanone. I. I love that dude. That is just a great American, great father. I'm so happy to have him and give you a little bonus segment on the pod today. Appreciate also my man Mike Murphy as I mentioned at the top. I'm going to be at the Muses parade tonight, so we'll see out there. Neutral ground side. If I'm not at 100% tomorrow, I've got great news. We got the best podcast guest around to carry me. So we'll see y'all then. Peace.
- [65:23]
Unknown Speaker
Around another promise, another scene another a package like to keep us trapped in greed A green bounce wrapped around our minds and endless red tape to keep the truth confined they will stop degrading us they will not control us we will be victorious Interchanging mind control Commit the revolution take its toll if you could I think of switching Open your third eye see that but we should never be afraid to die Rise up and take the power back it's time a fat cat's had a heart attack you know when there time's coming to an end we have to unify and watch our flag asce they will not for us they will stop degrading us they will not control us and we will be victorious.
- [67:35]
Tim Miller
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.