B (2:28)

So I think people weigh the crisis in different ways and there are a lot of people here in New Jersey that are weighing cost as the crisis that they're facing. So it's really hard when you can't pay for your Prescription drugs, groceries, or you're looking at being kicked out of your house. That is the central existential crisis for many people here. So while many of us are really concerned about our democracy, I've served almost my entire life. I know what it means to live in places where you don't have freedom of speech, where you can be disappeared in the middle of the night. And we're seeing that here, right? We're seeing secret police being developed in the DHS, loyalty oaths, people being picked up, disappeared for 70 days at a time, that kind of thing. To many of us, we're seeing all this. But when. When you're talking to an entire statewide electorate and they are facing a crisis in their family, or how they're going to make sure their kid gets a good education and access to a good future when they're housing insecure, that kind of thing, you're suddenly not, not connecting. And so it's. It was really important to lay out the economic crisis. That's what people wanted to hear. And so it wasn't just saying, oh, I'm going to take on electricity prices. It was, I'm going to declare a state of emergency on your utility costs, like a connection with the urgency of the moment here. But then more broadly, taking on Trump and reminding people in a very specific economic way that he is destroying your ability to succeed. It really struck me. And this, this gets a little New Jersey weird, ish. But our state motto is Liberty and prosperity. And I always thought, you know, I've always been a little bit of a liberty girly, right? Like, oh, fight for your freedom and join the Navy and, you know, protect the Constitution. But you need both when you're shut out of school, when you're shut out of jobs, when you have a president of the United States that's running a worldwide extortion racket where he's making billions and you're seeing your costs go up every single day, that's a really important fight in the whole realm of opportunity and what democracy means. And I think sometimes we miss that a little bit in our loftier ideals.

A (4:43)

I want to get into the specifics of the affordability part of the campaign, but just to politics, nerd out for one second. Were you feeling it on the ground? Were you feeling like there was this disconnect between the broader discussion that, oh, this is a really close race and there are some concerns about the Democratic candidates not lighting the world or whatever? Were you, like, that's not what you were seeing on the ground? Or were you as Surprised as everybody else as the numbers were coming in?

B (5:12)

No, we were seeing great stuff on the ground. And I kept trying to convey it and it was a hard race. You run different races. This is my fifth race in New Jersey. This was a picking people in puddles up off the ground from 24 and saying, no, we can do this and this is important and you gotta stay engaged. And really, it felt like the first half of my campaign was. Was saying, yeah, I get that we all feel like Democrats suck, but we can fix this in this one. You know, we can really. You know, these things move very, very quickly. Remember 2018 blue wave. Now we're here. So I think we're building back the Democratic brand as this really strong brand. And it was really important to start here. And we in New Jersey had a responsibility as one of only two states with a statewide election. And so we got to work and then we were feeling it. And you know, you, as you run different races, you can sense whether or not there's the momentum. People are engaged. And one of the things that's always interesting to me is when young people get engaged, and that is a sign of energy. We don't always see young people in my campaign. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. And this one more than ever, we had a huge number of young people get engaged to the point where. And by the way, as everyone's reporting, there's no energy on the ground. We're having like 500,000 person rallies and we're having about five of them a day. We're seeing hundreds of people come out and ruby red Ocean county on a Tuesday or something. The disconnect felt real. But then I met one rally with a group of teenage boys. And I have teenage boys. And so I think I thought all.

A (6:41)

The teenage boys were MAGA gripers. Now, is that not right?

B (6:44)

Well, this is how quickly things shift, right? As people understand economic opportunity and college kids are worried about jobs. So I see these teenage boys and I thought they were sort of trolling me because, like I said, I have teenage boys. But they're like, so excited. They're taking all these selfies in the audience. They're even doing like, hearts like this. And I'm going, what is. What are those boys? You know, are they.

A (7:06)

And this a tik tok thing?

B (7:08)

I was like, are they going to, like, put out some video, like, how much I suck? So I asked afterwards, I said, I noticed those gentlemen, you know, kind of right, front, left, what was that about? And they go, oh, they have been Knocking doors for you. They are so excited. I'm like, wow, okay. I'm like, we're hitting it. And I was saying to somebody, this was kind of the campaign nobody wanted except the voters. Meaning it was exactly what voters wanted. They wanted me to show up, they wanted me to express interest in what they needed. And then they wanted me to enact an agenda that was going to actually make their lives better. And that, you know, it's sort of how I run. And it always hits. But it wasn't necessarily what insiders in New Jersey, Democratic insiders here, aren't used to running in the suburbs, but they haven't been turning out the cities very well. So just building out this huge turnout operation. I mean, Newark hasn't turned out numbers like this since 2005 for a governor's race. We saw Hudson swing 22 points. We saw Psych swing 18 points. These are some of our. This is like Patterson, Jersey City, Hoboken, Union City, that kind of stuff. And a lot of that was working closely with people who knew how to do this turnout. Some of our mayors are elected, some of our county executives, that kind of stuff. Our chairman working closely, but then also grassroots groups, young people. I mean, it was just this juggernaut of a campaign that and people in New Jersey love their politics and love good campaigns. So this was like an old school, everybody, get the hell out, knock on doors campaign. And it worked back to kind of.

A (8:48)

Like the substance of the affordability message. There was a substack. Liberty and power. As a former staffer of yours is writing with us, I don't know if you've seen this, and he's talking about the ways in which your and Zoran Mamdani's campaigns were aligned in one sense. And you wrote that you broke with the corporate friendly mold of most Democrats, taking on corporate power and exploitation and making that front and center. Does that resonate with you? And do you think. Was going after concentration of power a central part of your campaign, or were there other elements of the affordability message you think resonated?

B (9:21)

It's funny because I'm always leery of anything in the Democratic Party where people don't seem to want jobs or people don't care about jobs. And I know you're kind of laughing, but I think some of us feel that sometimes that when I'm talking about jobs, when I'm talking about economic opportunity, there are people in the party that almost feel like that sounds somehow like not aligned with our ideals. And yet I couldn't think of anything more important.

A (9:51)

You do need some companies for people to have jobs, right? I mean, going after. I'm all for going after elites, but companies do need to exist and need.

B (9:58)

To employ people and need to get money there. The way it was phrased was not something I was a little surprised to read it think, huh, I wonder. That's not how I express it. But the idea of going after concentrated power is something that really resonated with me because that seems to be the fight. Here is the president trying to concentrate a lot of power in the hands of a very few and the push to really grow a working class, a middle class and have opportunity for everyone. And I talked a lot about opportunity in my campaign because I see it in my own life. I talked about my grandpa's union job. I talked about my dad growing up poor and putting himself through college. I talked about the changes in regulations in the military that allowed me to graduate with the first class of women to have access to combat jobs on ships and aircraft and how that changed my opportunity trajectory. So opportunity is really important and it feels as if this is an administration that's trying to shut it down for so many people. I always think of it trying to create this Argentinian economy with wealth concentrated in the hands of very few and then subsidize, I guess, the Argentinian economy with US dollars. But nevertheless. So that resonated because that's the fight. It's why I think unions are so important for fighting for working people. It's why I think it was so important to me to put together the traditional democratic juggernaut of working people both in the suburbs and in our cities and having everyone come to the table about what it was going to take. And look, I mean the basic premise is access to great education, access to a great job, making sure the state's driving innovation. So I am very pro business in the sense that's how we drive access to jobs and opportunity. I am not for the concentration that we've seen in this country of power in the hands of a very few.

A (11:54)

And so are there any specific policies on that point? And you mentioned the energy emergency. Was there anything else that was top of the agenda list?

B (12:00)

So really expanding access to that first time homebuyers program. You know, I've probably historically been a little bit like, you know, sometimes there's a lot better ways to invest your money than a home and blah, blah, blah. But here's the thing. I remember getting brief after brief after brief when I was, you know, at the Naval Academy about if you just put $20 away each month or 40 bucks, you know, you'll be a millionaire by the time you said, I remember, think. I don't even think I have 20 bucks in my bank account right now. There is no way that I'm putting 20 bucks away and not, you know, going out with my friends this weekend. So.

A (12:35)

Right.

B (12:36)

You can't convince people. But the one thing people always pay into is their rent or their mortgage. Right. That's your home. So it's almost like a forced way of developing wealth. And I've seen in so many cases how that home, when a loved one dies, who's the breadwinner or something that, you know, got you your start when your grandparents died or something like that. So really expanding the first time homebuyers program because right now housing costs are so high. So helping people get in to that first home and start to develop that things like making sure there's more competition in the market. When we see some of these food prices go up, some of its tariffs in a worldwide economy, some of it's people taking advantage. I think I remember reading probably about four years ago or so that egg prices went up by like 700%. That wasn't tariffs. Right. I mean those are produced here in. So really making sure we have competition. You know, if we push in some programs to help small grocery stores and bodegas start up, that can address competition in the market.

A (13:36)

But government run bodegas?

B (13:39)

No, independent grocers and stuff, you know, entrepreneurs don't get me in trouble here.

A (13:47)

It's okay to have some difference. I mean, obviously, look, if the connective tissue between you and Zoran, who run the mayor's race was a focus on affordability, there's obviously going to be differences. Right. I don't know. And do you look at that and see anything that you're like, Well, I think maybe for folks that are running in other parts of the country, there is a way that I ran that was different from him. Or are you worried that you're going to get exiles across the river moving across to New Jersey?

B (14:14)

Interestingly, to your point that you're raising probably one of the biggest differences. I'm not a democratic socialist. I really do think capitalism as long as people have access to opportunity. So, you know, I'm not talking capitalism like robber barons of the 1920s. I'm talking.

A (14:32)

We're not doing Ayn Rand.

B (14:33)

Right? Exactly. I'm not a fan. I was, you know, when I was young and dumb. Right. Who was when we like Grow up and mature and care about others. We take a different view of the world, so really focused on expanding access to opportunity. But that is a key difference. I do think, you know, people want to build something. For example, I think some of the reason I connected so well with the Latino vote was because they're our most entrepreneurial group of citizens in New Jersey. So making sure they have access to small business expertise and cut through red tape and permitting so they can not spend tons of time and money trying to get that small business open was really compelling. Affordability was compelling to everyone to grow their family. So all of that made sense. The black community, you know, they know what the disparity study looks like. So again, it's opportunity. It's saying, look, you know, I'm just being shut out in too many cases and this is what it's going to take for me to grow my business.

A (15:41)

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B (18:02)

Yeah. So I would say when I look at this race and what just happened, you know, I think what I ran is sort of a different kind of Democratic leadership. The willingness to be tough and to take on fights when it comes for fighting for people. A willingness to fight, you know, to fight for people, whether it's Trump or whether it's members of my own party to stand up, that's kind of a reputation. I have to take bold action. So that was the emergency state of emergent utility costs and announced this is what I can do so people know they can hold me accountable and know exactly where that line is. I think my bio as a Navy veteran and then a mom of four, both expressed that, yeah, I was willing to do the hard things. I was tough enough to do the hard things. And because I'm a mom, I'm going to be sort of unrelenting and fighting for everybody. And that is the mandate that I was given, was to fight for the people of New Jersey. And so when it comes to Trump, I think what people want is a fighter, but they don't want somebody who's just gonna pick battles to, like, up their, you know, profile or something.

A (19:07)

I'll handle that for you. The Twitter trolling. I can do that part.

B (19:12)

Thank you. Thank you. They want somebody who's gonna stand up and say, all right, it's illegal for you to cancel the Gateway Tunnel funding. That's congressionally appropriated funding. You know, this is the most important project of national significance in the nation. We're 20% of the nation's GDP in the Northeast. This is a key infrastructure project and is a key economic driver. So they want me to stand up for that. But if it just comes to, I don't know, like, the East Wing of the White House, it's offensive, it's gross, it's whatever. But it's also not really going to have much to do with the cost of anything here in New Jersey. So I think there's like that key focus on when to stand up to the president. And then we've also got a lot of federal money we need here. We've got the 250th anniversary of our nation. New Jersey is the crossroads of the revolution. More battles here than anywhere else. We're really proud of our state, and we want to make sure that we can show it off. And we have different opportunities to do so through historic funding. We also have the FIFA World cup final here. So we want to make sure that as we have people from across the world coming here, that we have the security, that we have the federal funds to run that really, really well. So. So there are ways in which, you know, I very much need to work with the federal government, and I need them to perform well. And then you come to things like the fact that New Jersey sends $70 billion more to the federal government than we get back. And now the federal government's failing at things like SNAP funding, failing at things like, you know, Affordable Care Act. So where is the health care going to go if they are taking down the whole health care system and they're taking all of our money? What's the plan here? And so there's a fight in there, but there's also a, hey, if you're going to send that money back to us, do that. We'll run it. Or if you have a better idea, do that. But if you're just not going to give people health care, that's the fight side. If you're willing to come up with new ideas, that's the let's figure this out side.

A (21:07)

So you got two months. Is there a specific thing? When you look at January, you're like, man, I'm going to have to really go at the administration on this, because what they're doing right now is hurting people.

B (21:16)

Well, there's SNAP funding. I mean, even though part of that was related to the shutdown, there's significant cuts to it that the federal government is anticipating with the one big beautiful bill. We have significant cuts to Medicare with the one big beautiful bill, cuts to how we generate power and electricity with the one big, I mean, all this stuff is a huge cost associated with some of the key things that impact people's affordability, health care, utility costs, how we grow. And the idea that we're going to go back, I would say people here in the state of New Jersey, including Republicans, understand that all these costs are actually pushing us back into a more expensive way of doing business. Just driving everyone to emergency room care, having communities that are sicker, having kids that aren't able to go to school and parents that aren't able to go to work. All of this stuff is pretty well understood in our state and I assume in a lot of red states as well.

A (22:16)

I don't know. There's another point of view on how things are going with the economy. I do want to share with you. This was the president on FOX News.

B (22:23)

And why are people saying they're anxious about the economy? Why are they saying that?

C (22:26)

I don't know that they are saying.

B (22:28)

I think polls are fake.

C (22:29)

We have the greatest economy we've ever had.

A (22:32)

You've been out there with the people of New Jersey. What do you think? Is he in touch with what's happening out there?

B (22:37)

So when you run a campaign like I just did, six way primary, you know, tough fight to the finish, I spoke to thousands of people sometimes a day and they know what's going on. And that's what the president's going to have a really hard time managing because this isn't just put some spin on it or just say some funny things and everybody forgets about it. This is people who are seeing costs go up everywhere. They're about to see gas prices go up because of the president. The tariffs are putting small businesses out of business. We have big businesses that are in hiring freezes. We know nationwide about 22 states are in a recession right now. Many states in danger of being in a recession, you know who gets it the most. And we saw a big uptick in young voters in my campaign and young people getting engaged. They know what's going on. When I go to colleges and universities, they see the job market. They are sort of in a panicky state. I've spoken to some people who had job offers rescinded because now lot of big companies because of the chaos in the economy are pulling back on expansion plans. Just over a year ago, before Trump got into office all of my businesses, my big businesses here were saying, mikey, you need to grow the workforce. I need to see better higher ed. I need to see output better. We are hiring, we're expanding. And now I'm talking. You know, I was just talking to a mayor a couple weeks ago who said he had an employment fair and he had a really hard time getting businesses there. And he had about 1500 people coming for about five jobs. They were just around the block. He showed me the video of how many people came. So it maybe hasn't permeated the, the media yet, but on the ground, there are really concerning signs about this economy. And so it's. Voters are. I mean, just look at New Jersey, right. What just happened. I mean, that's not voters being sort of feeling like the economy's good or things are going the right direction from Trump.

A (24:34)

I guess it hasn't permeated the bubble of the truffle parties that Donald Trump is having in Mar a Lago doesn't seem to have permeated that yet. All right, what is your advice? Whether you're for Democrats, you've run for the House, you won four times, obviously. I think congressional races, House and Senate races are different in some ways than governors races, but there's some similarities. You've now done both successfully. One the only. Well, I guess you and Abigail Spanberg are the ones who have done so in now the Trump second term. What is your advice for colleagues, people to call thinking about next year as far as how to campaign? I mean, obviously the obvious answer is focused on affordability, but what are some specific things you think they could do as far as getting attention, contrasting to Trump and God willing, outperforming the polls by 8 to 10 points like you did?

B (25:23)

Yeah, I don't want to say, like, totally go with your gut, because that sounds like a weird idea, but I would say speak to as many people on the ground from the communities you want to represent as possible. And I'm not talking the groups, you know, I'm not talking, like, just go to the grassroots leaders because they don't always represent people. They often have a specific thing that they're working on. And that thing, whatever it may be, is the thing that animates them and drives them in their advocacy. And that's great for that group, but it doesn't necessarily represent even the people they are purporting to serve. So you really have to get in with the people on the ground. You can speak to any number of pastors or elected officials that are close to the ground, how they win in tough places. So really just getting into communities and actually hearing what they're saying and then kind of going back and forth with them about what you're going to do. Because, you know, we had a couple ideas on what we thought could be really helpful and people just were kind of like, no, that doesn't really float my boat. So really finding those key issues that are keeping people out of.

A (26:40)

Is there an example of that?

B (26:41)

So New Jersey housing prices have gone up by 50% in the last five years. And I really see it as a supply and demand problem, you know, and we tried to talk about how we thought more housing supply would be good, whether it was transit oriented development or repurposing commercial spaces and protecting open spaces because we're really densely populated. But no matter how we communicated on it, wealthy people felt like we were coming after their neighborhoods and not wealthy people thought we were going to build a bunch of luxury apartment buildings because they're seeing that go up everywhere. So it just didn't connect. So I, and I said, you know, look, I'm not building on open spaces. I'm doing transit oriented. I'm repurposing. There's a ton of like strip malls that could be repurposed. It just didn't connect. And so as much as I thought that was a key affordability issue, housing, and I'm still going to address it. If you're running to serve people and people don't like your ideas, you gotta get the ideas that are gonna connect with them, right? And that's where sometimes, yeah, go figure. It's like rocket science here. So that was one example. And then you also, I think if you're gonna, you know, depending on your electorate, and certainly in New Jersey with the affordability crisis, it was almost like everything we did, people had complaints about. And so running against Trump, everybody kept being angry, like, all you're doing is running against Trump. What they didn't clock was that I wasn't running against him. Like I said on the east wing of the way, I was saying, he's driving up your costs. It was my message wasn't an anti Trump message as much as it was an affordability message. And he was driving up costs, which was very key. So that's, I think, important. And then they were mad that all I was talking about was affordability. But again, that right now, if you're serving working people and if you want to grow. What I think of as Democrats at our best is when we are serving working people, when we're creating education, access to opportunity, jobs. That's where when we're like liberty and prosperity, I think we're missing prosperity here. And I think that's really key.

A (28:48)

Well, Trump driving up you kind of said at the top. Trump driving up your costs while he's enriching himself with money from Middle east oil barons and crypto entrepreneurs is pretty, pretty good message, I think, that people understand. All right. Last thing, I've been invited to Drum Throck at one time, actually, it's the governor's mansion in New Jersey. And it was because after Chris Christie did Bridge Gate, he was trying to do damage control. He invited people up to, like, have a little roundtable. But as it's Chris Christie, he was. He didn't seem to. He didn't seem like he was really taking ownership of his choices. Let's say it was a lot of maybe he can charm people with, you know, this Christie bluster. So it wasn't the best experience. It was snowy day. I barely made it up there. Chris Christie kind of yelled at me. And, you know, it wasn't the best memory. So you never know. I'm just saying, if you're ever having people buy Drum Pocket, I'm open to come back to kind of change the vibe.

B (29:43)

Okay. Okay. Maybe in sort of the spring or summer.

A (29:47)

It sounds like summer. Are you gonna be using that private beach he used that Chris Christie used?

B (29:53)

You know, well, when you have four children and you've just disappeared on them for like a year to run a campaign, you keep luring them back by saying, if I win this one, guys, there's a beach house involved.

A (30:05)

There's a beach house.

B (30:07)

So I assume. I haven't seen it, but I.

A (30:11)

As long as the government's open, as long as people are getting paid, then they can use it. Governor, excuse me, Govna elect Mikey Sherrill. Thank you for coming on. Congratulations on the win, and keep us posted.

B (30:25)

All right, well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

A (30:28)

All right, thanks so much to Governor elect Mikey Sherrill. Up next, Michael Fanone. All right, if you're ever worried about the safety of your home and you don't have Michael Fanone to stand outside on guard like I wish I did. The need to hear about Simplisafe's early access Black Friday sale. Traditional security systems respond after somebody breaks in. That didn't do you any good. SimpliSafe is different because it can stop crimes before they happen. With its active guard outdoor protection, AI powered cameras detect threats while they're still outside your home and alert real security agents. This is the game changer. The agents take action while the intruder is still outside. They confront the intruder, letting them know they've been watched on camera and that the police are on their way. This is how you stop a crime before it starts. There are no long term contracts or hidden fees. You can cancel any time. It's named the best home security system by U.S. news World Report for five years running. 60 day money back guarantee. So you can try it and see the difference for yourself. Man, I'm loving the Simplisafe home security system. It's something that folks in my family were feeling like I should focus on. I just wanted to move Fanone in just me. I pitched it to Phenomenon. I was just like, look man, come we knew content together. You know, it can be kind of like a content slash security guard role. He wasn't into that. He wasn't into that. He, you know, he likes hanging out. I come down here, have some whiskeys. But. But wasn't into that pitch. So next best option, our friends at Simplisafe don't miss out on Simply Save's biggest sale of the year. 60% off. Right now our listeners can save 60% off on a SimpliSafe home security system@simplisafe.com the Bulwark. That's simplisafe.com the Bulwark. There's no safe like Simplisafe. All right. Delighted to welcome back a former metropolitan police officer known for doing undercover investigations in gay bars at Apex Washington, D.C. my old stomping grounds. On January 6, he was attacked by a mob that stormed the Capitol. Probably more noteworthy now, he's the host of the Michael FanOne Show. On YouTube and Substack, it's Michael Fanone. What up, homie?

C (32:41)

What's up, buddy? Good to see you.

A (32:42)

Good to see you. Initially, we had talked about doing a pod on law enforcement's lack of pushback to the administration's actions. And we need to get to that. But like we have an insane amount of news over the last 36 hours. I want to get your take on starting with this morning, a bunch of outlets. Initially, CNN acquired a tranche of emails from the House Oversight Democrats. House oversight Democrats doing something shout out. It included emails from Jeffrey Epstein to Helene Maxwell and to Michael Wolf. One such email appears to be a conversation between Epstein and Maxwell about why the local police down in Palm beach didn't look into Trump. This, this email is in 2011. He had been arrested in 2008. Epstein writes, I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump victim. Name redacted. Spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned. Police chief, etc. As a former cop doing investigations, wondering what you'd make of that email.

C (33:41)

Listen, I. I think that the. The COVID up here for rich and powerful people that did some incredibly heinous, disgusting things is long, and that list is distinguished. And it's not surprising to me at all. I mean, we saw Alex Acosta, the prosecutor in that case, do some things and treat Epstein in a way that I've never seen a federal prosecutor treat somebody who was accused of, again, doing some pretty despicable things with children.

A (34:22)

Yeah. And go watch back and watch that documentary. And the local cops down in Palm beach were doing real work, and they were the ones that were confused. And it's interesting, my read on this. It's hard to kind of divine. One email is that is like Epstein basically, like, talking to Maxwell about whether Trump, like, worked with the police. Right. Because in a different email, he talks about how Trump knew about the girls, referencing the girls that they had recruited, groomed from Mar A Lago for their sex trafficking of, you know, both minors, both sex trafficking, both girls and young women. There's an element of this, like, we knew, right, that Trump was involved in all this. It is something, I think, a little bit different, and it is advancing the story, so to speak, that we have Epstein now in writing to Maxwell saying the victim, one of these victims, spent hours at his house, at my house, not in Mar A Lago, spent hours at my house, Epstein's house, with Trump. It seems pretty cut and dry about what Donald Trump was up to.

C (35:23)

Yeah, I mean, listen, I've sat across the table from a few criminals in my illustrious career, and, you know, everything that Donald Trump does in the denials, the denials of even, you know, knowing Jeffrey Epstein, I may have met him a few times. He was, you know, blah, blah, blah. There's so much evidence to show that. No, they. Not only were they not just acquaintances, but they were friends. And not only were they just friends, but they were best friends. And not only were they best friends, but they seemed to spend a tremendous amount of time together and have a lot of financial intertwinings between the two of them. It shouldn't come as a surprise. It certainly doesn't come as a surprise to me that. That these emails exist and that, you know, the likelihood that Donald Trump is. Is in the Epstein files, probably mentioned as More than just an observer per se. And that's also look at the lengths that Republicans, Republican lawmakers are willing to twist themselves into pretzels and go against their at least purported principles on a daily basis to try to cover this all up.

A (36:32)

Obviously, now that Grevaglia is going to be finally, after like the longest period of time ever between a member of Congress winning a special election and then being seated, she's finally going to be seated. And so they now have the votes for a discharge position with additional files. I talked yesterday to Julie Brown about that. People can listen to what her takes are. She's been the top reporter on this over on the Bork Takes feed. I want to talk to you about a couple of these other stories that are related to your experience. One is from our man Will Sommer here at the Bulwark. He had an amazing story earlier this week about just the continued effort on the right to come up with insane smears against you and the other cops that were protecting the Capitol on January 6th. The latest example is from the Blaze, which was originally that Glenn Beck outfit, the Blaze reported that a female former Capitol Police officer who has since joined the CIA was a, quote, forensic match for the person that allegedly had placed those pipe bombs. It's one of the great mysteries that we still have about January 6th. There were some pipe bombs placed at the DNC and RNC. The blaze had this supposed bombshell. It was a former Capitol Police officer. The forensic match was based on her gait. They decided, based on, you know, kind of looking at some video of her walking. They brought an equine expert, like a horse expert in to determine whether her gait was the same as the gait of the person on the video setting the pipe bombs. You should not be surprised to learn that this woman that they had randomly named had already been a target of the maga. Right? She was photographed as one of the officers firing pepper balls at the rioters on January 6th. She testified against January 6th participants. So this seems like obviously payback, smear attempt and I don't know, maybe an opportunity for her to get some money in a lawsuit because it is absolutely insane. The Blaze is now obviously backtracking hardcore on this, on this story.

C (38:28)

I hope she sues the Blaze and sues them into oblivion. This is a total bullshit story. I was a cop for 20 years. I never heard of anybody using the gate of an individual as indisputable evidence that they were in fact the perpetrator. That's insane to me. Also, there were other facts That I have since learned by doing very little research on my own. Yes, she was a Capitol Police officer. She did leave the Capitol Police, but not to join the CIA as some type of COVID operator. She joined the CIA as a uniformed police officer that guarded their campus facility. And so, you know, it's not deep state, right? Yeah, not quite. What the. What the blaze, I think, was alluding to that that job was some type of, you know, that maybe she had been with the CIA previously or she.

A (39:24)

Was a spook that had been planted there. Like, the whole premise of this conspiracy theory that it was a Fed direction that day is so funny to me because it, like, all you have to do is just think about it for two seconds, how stupid it is that it's like this idea that there were, like, a handful of Fed boys hiding in the crowd, egging people on. And that's like a couple of the cops there tried to get people riled up by, you know, shooting pepper bullets at them. It's like, for starters, you guys used unbelievable restraint that day as compared to what we've seen from police in other situations, number one. Number two, it's like, imagine them putting a couple of Fed boys in the no Kings protest, like, walking around being like, hey, you know what I think we should do today? Storm the Capitol. The no Kings NPR tote bag crowd wouldn't have been like, hell, yeah. Yeah, good point. Yeah, great idea. Let's storm the Capitol. It's just like the whole theory of the case is moronic.

C (40:26)

Yeah, it's interesting, too. I was just engaging with somebody on, I don't know, Facebook or some shit that likes to slide into my DMs and spout this conspiratorial nonsense, and every once in a while, I'll indulge them, but it's the same thing. It's. Well, the cops opened the gates that day. You're literally ignoring a cornucopia of evidence that suggests that this was a violent insurrection inspired by Donald Trump and his supporters. And pointing to one singular image of a cop seemingly opening a door to a mass of rioters who are trying to force it open and then saying that that singular act is now. That is the narrative of the day.

A (41:10)

Yeah.

C (41:10)

So, you know, you can't cure stupid.

A (41:13)

Yeah, you can't cure stupid. We kind of like blaming, like, the. The bodega guy in Kenosha for, you know, his store. His store getting attacked by the rioters because he unlocked the door. You know what I mean? It's just like, what are you Even talking about another January six thing related to the pardons. Earlier this week, Justice Department announced mass pardon for 77 named individuals who are not necessarily involved in the riot per se, but were involved in the plot because they're either fake electors or organizing the fake electors and they attempt to overturn the election. You did a video over on your channel on this guy Andrew Take. I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name right. Who cares? Actually, this fucking dirtbag that was also pardoned. Tell folks about Take. And then if you have any other thoughts on the latest spate of pardons.

C (42:01)

Yeah, he was a insurrectionist pardoned by Donald Trump, participated in the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol and has since been, you know, rearrested for some pretty heinous acts against minors. You know, the reason that I highlighted this and highlight these other stories is there's this, at least on the right, there's the kind of understanding or narrative that the individuals that went to the Capitol that day were these good, wholesome, God fearing people that just were so inspired by this atrocity that was being committed by the Democrats in the stealing of this election and denying them their liberty. That's not the case. And I had the experience of having six individuals that pled guilty to assaulting me. And knowing their criminal backgrounds, these were people that were already predisposed to violence. Many of them had criminal convictions for drug trafficking, drug possession, spousal abuse, sex crimes. And so you really have to consider that as like, what type of person attacks law enforcement? Because Donald Trump told them that the election was stolen despite all the evidence to the contrary. And it's exactly what you would think, criminals.

A (43:28)

It's a dark irony really, that this Trump movement was undergirded by a QAnon conspiracy that was centered around how there's this pedophile ring and all of these elite liberals were involved in this great pedophile ring. And now today we have a couple of stories like that the guy that Trump pardoned that had attacked you all at the Capitol was sending dick pics to a girl that he thought was 15. It was actually an undercover agent, but sending dick pics to 15 year olds. And we've got Donald Trump according to emails between like the two most notorious child sex traffickers and sex traffickers in the country, talking about how Donald Trump was spending a lot of hours of time with the victims. You know, I mean, it seems like the pedophilia was coming from inside of the House. There might be a little bit of projection.

C (44:17)

Yeah. No, I mean, listen, I try not to go down these rabbit holes too often, but there's a great content creator right wing on Instagram that highlights each and every one of these cases in which somebody who's associated with the Trump administration, the Republican Party or was at the insurrection has been arrested for crimes, sex abuse crimes or crimes against children.

A (44:47)

Long list, I assume. Short list. Short list. And if it's a whole account, it seems like there's enough material there to keep it going.

C (44:54)

They average like 30amonth, so that's they're moving pretty significant.

A (45:02)

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C (48:17)

Yeah, I have a hot take on this.

A (48:20)

Please.

C (48:21)

All the criticism of Cash Patel. I don't understand it. You know, this is a guy that. He's a conspiracy theorist and a podcaster who is now the head of the FBI. What did we expect?

A (48:36)

Oh, I expected this. I expected worse than this, actually. This has been better for me. It's a little bit comical. I was worried that he was gonna get in there and be like, oh man, I now have all this power and I have all this investigative power and anybody that was ever mean to me once on the Internet were gonna like go after their phone records and shit. I thought it was pretty ominous. But instead of he's using the plane, the taxpayer plane, to go visit his girlfriend and he's giving out people challenge coins and he's, you know, popping off on social media. I don't know, it could be worse, I guess.

C (49:08)

That's the biggest challenge coin I've ever Seen in my entire life.

A (49:11)

Could be worse.

C (49:14)

No, I. Yes, absolutely. It. It could be worse. Although I think, you know, considering the rate in which he's firing career agents from the department, I don't think we have very much time left before the FBI just becomes a useless agency as far as its effectiveness in both foreign and domestic investigations.

A (49:39)

You've got friends in law enforcement world. What is your sense? It's hard for me to judge from the outside how much this is affecting rank and file folks, you know, in federal law enforcement. Or like, what are you hearing? Like, what are the. What are the text chains say about that?

C (49:55)

So for the most part, I think that, you know, there's individuals that are absolutely embarrassed by leadership, but they've been embarrassed by leadership in the past. I tried to point out the fact that this is something different.

A (50:08)

Yeah.

C (50:09)

You know, this is not FBI director making a policy decision that you disagree with. You know, this is somebody who is exploiting the office, who is grossly unqualified to hold the position. And it shows every single day. And I think Cash Patel knows it. If you see the looks on his face, he's clearly has imposter syndrome. He knows that he doesn't belong there, and he's trying to do everything he can to present this tough guy Persona, and he just looks like a clown.

A (50:41)

It's all in the eyes. His panic, His. The sheer panic that he has every day is right there in the eyes. He can't hide it. He can't help himself. And I'm sympathetic to Cash on this because I. I don't have a good poker face. I get a little frustrated on a panel over the weekend and, like, the number of people who are there that were just like your face when they were talking. And so I get it. I don't have a poker face either. But, you know, I'm not trying to run the bureau of the bureau of Investigation.

C (51:08)

I can't unsee him with the Viking helmet. I don't know if you've seen that meme, but. But now every time. Yeah, there's a. When he was talking about Valhalla in one of his speeches, somebody made a meme about it wearing a Viking helmet. And now every time I see Cash Patel, like, in my mind, he's wearing a Viking helmet. And I just. I can't take the guy seriously.

A (51:25)

Just while we're doing clownishness with Cash, I do have to mention. So this was a couple weeks ago now, Halloween. Also in the journal story, we had seen this. He had posted early in the morning that, like, the FBI has, you know, stopped a terror plot in Michigan. And there was some news, like, at the time about how, like, that's strange because nobody had actually been arrested yet. Like, he got out over his skis just like he did in the Charlie Kirk investigation. But the new item in the Journal story, which is insane, is that it was true that they were going after a terror plot, because there's still some people at the bureau that are doing real work. I don't think Cash is included in that. But two of the friends or accomplices maybe of the terrorists saw Cash's tweet, saw that the arrests were coming, and tried to flee. They had plans to leave the country. They had changed it. They moved up their plans. Luckily, they're still intercepted. I don't know. I think it was at the Newark airport. Somebody can correct me on that. But Cash's desire for attention and to make big boy announcements about how he's arresting terrorists nearly allowed to friends of the. Of the people they're investigating to get out of the country. That's the type of clownishness that we're dealing with.

C (52:40)

None of this is normal. That's kind of like the mantra, I think, for this administration. But, like, I always go back to, like, the Charlie Kirk investigation and the fact that, you know, the director of the FBI flew out there and was real time tweeting, you know, information that was coming in that had not been vetted or verified by the agencies themselves and put out all of this misinformation, all of this disinformation. And, you know, that unfortunately has become, you know, the thread when it comes to Cash Patel. He's the first. Wants to be, you know, the first on the scene. He wants to be, you know, intimately involved in every press conference, which is just not something that you traditionally would see the. The director of the FBI do ever.

A (53:30)

I saw you on, I guess it was on Ms. Ms. Now the other day, and you were talking about how this politicization of the FBI is affecting you and how you see it in other ways that we've seen in the news beyond the high profile firings. And you said basically that you had, I guess, reported threats to the FBI and they'd done nothing or you'd not heard back. What is your sense for what. Like, what is happening with that?

C (53:58)

Yeah, so, I mean, this stems from, obviously, since my congressional testimony, I've received a pretty significant amount of death threats. You know, some of them are just.

A (54:09)

Arbitrary, you know, and shouted down at a. South at A South beach bar.

C (54:13)

I heard shouted down at a South beach bar.

A (54:16)

Yeah.

C (54:16)

Anyways, so do members of my family and members of my family reside in different jurisdictions. And so rather than constantly reporting these individual crimes to the individual jurisdictions themselves, I thought that it was important. Being somebody who's been in law enforcement myself, I understand how these things work, that we had a point of contact within a federal agency. And so I sent a host of information, a compiling of these threats to a friend of mine within the FBI, and despite attempts by me to follow up, never heard anything. It's also, I mean, look at the relationship that I've had with the Department of Justice, which was my local prosecutors for 20 years when I worked as a D.C. cop. You know, I went from being considered a victim because of what happened to me on January 6th and the assault cases after those pardons. Not only am I no longer considered a victim by that agency, but you have individuals in there like Ed Martin, who are actively looking to bring charges against me for God knows what. I mean, I've heard things thrown around like perjury and a number of other charges stemming from either my congressional testimony or my actions on January 6th. Now I am actually being targeted by my former colleagues who, through no actions of my own, previously considered me a hero and now consider me to be a villain. Only because there's a different administration and we now, you know, they are politicizing the agency and politicizing prosecutions, going from.

A (55:59)

Being a victim to a target of the same agency over. Just because of the change in the political leadership. I just want to say, to your point about the FBI thing, like. And, you know, people listening this don't have experience with this. You know, you might wonder, like, okay, well, FBI's gotta be busy. Like, they respond to everybody that makes these sorts of complaints. But on the type of thing you're talking about, like, political threats, myself and others I know have received some of those. Not really recently for me. I think that the freaks have given up on me a little bit. I've been woke for so long that. Don't say that out loud, but they have some more recent targets like you. But I was kind of surprised, actually, about the opposite, about the level of customer service from the FBI, if you will. Back in the day, I didn't really feel seriously threatened. Right. But it's like you reported anyway, and you get a call back from an agent, they talk to you, they give you their number. They say if you need somebody to contact the main line. I've had that experience And I know several of my colleagues have. It is noteworthy that like they just ghosted you, right? Like that's not nothing that's not in your head.

C (57:16)

Yeah, no, I mean these were. These were actual crimes. I mean, these were individuals that had doxed me on the dark web, that were calling for the rape and murder of my children, that were posting addresses of my family members, my immediate family members, and also my ex wife. And so where my children reside.

A (57:35)

And you got nothing?

C (57:36)

I got nothing. And I mean, you know, the same thing with local law enforcement. You know, shout out to Fairfax county police, you know, we would report these things to them and they would say, well, it's on the dark web, there's nothing we can do. And so, you know, you're on your own. And really, no compassion, no empathy whatsoever from, you know, from those organizations, despite the fact that I was a colleague for 20 years and you know, actually worked with some of those agencies throughout my career.

A (58:07)

Crazy.

C (58:07)

So needless to say, Tim, we don't call them, we don't call 911 when we need help anymore.

A (58:13)

Yikes. I'm starting to feel some 2020 feelings right now. So we're going to move on from that, but that fucking sucks. Okay, so back to the original thing that we were texting about. I wanted to have you on about. It's just like there's so much news. Some of what we're seeing in Chicago and other places has come out of the headlines a little bit for the last few days, but obviously this is still coming back with the crackdowns. We've seen ICE and CBP and the way they're using local law enforcement in these various jurisdictions. And I was just wondering what you kind of made of that and what you made of how people that. I think a lot of folks are in tough positions, right. Like if you are on the lower rungs in federal law enforcement or if you're a local cop in one of these cities, what are you going to do? Do a sit in. And you're getting these sort of requests. So I'm just wondering, having been kind of in like what you think voicing from that perspective.

C (59:12)

Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, I mean, it's unfortunate that the rank and file officers bear the brunt of the criticism for what's happening in these different jurisdictions as far as local, state, local law enforcement. Because the bad actors are ICE and Customs and Border Patrol. I mean, I've seen some pretty egregious acts on behalf of some local police officers as well, but the root cause here is coming from ICE and Customs and Border Patrol and the way that they conduct themselves, which is unlawful, overly aggressive, abusive, I would rise to call it state sponsored violence. But the disappointment and the anger for me stems from the lack of response from the leadership of these state, local and municipal agencies. I mean, take Washington, D.C. for example. I get the fact that it's a federal city, that Donald Trump can do more and do it with more ease than he could in some of these other places. But you take Pam Smith, the chief of police for the Metropolitan Police Department. She just disappeared. She did nothing, she said nothing. And there's some very, I think, poignant things that she could bring up. And one of them is why we have had this long standing policy that state and local police departments do not participate in immigration enforcement operations. And that's because in these jurisdictions, we have a responsibility to provide police services to all the residents of the city, regardless of your immigration status. And for people that are saying, well, they don't deserve access to police services, well, yes, they do, first of all. And that's an incredibly unempathetic thing to say. But let's just imagine, for instance, that you, a critic of that policy, is in Washington, D.C. and become the victim of a crime and the only witness to that crime is somebody who's here in an undocumented status. Well, they're not going to come forward if they think that ICE will be.

A (61:21)

There waiting for them.

C (61:22)

ICE is going to be there waiting for them and deporting them. And so you're not going to get justice. And so is that really the type of world that we want to live in? No, it's not. And so people in police leadership could easily hold a press conference and simply explain why they could talk about the reasons behind those policies. They could talk about why this is bad for the community, why that this is sowing the seeds of distrust at a time where, I mean, let's be frank, law enforcement has not been one of the most credible institutions in this country for a very, very long time and has struggled to build relationships with the communities that it's charged with keeping safe.

A (62:07)

What is your sense for, I mean, and this is like something that's coming for everybody, right? Like in law enforcement world. I mean, like you're hearing from folks just like the amount of people that are like being reassigned to doing this kind of immigration work. I mean, I hear things from my friends in law enforcement and it's like, I don't know that it's really sunk in for People like just how significant the amount of immigration work, like local and, you know, regional federal law enforcement is, is having to do.

C (62:36)

Yeah, no, I mean, listen, as somebody who hated being retasked as a narcotics investigator because it's, you know, it's very hard to put an investigation that you're right in the middle of on hold for, you know, a week, a month, multiple months, and then come back to it with, with any degree of effectiveness. I have actually several friends in DHS who work child exploitation cases, which, you know, I would say is. Is probably one of the highest priority cases, at least in my humble opinion, in law enforcement. And these aren't just like small time cases. These are domestic and international trafficking rings involving small children. And they've been retasked for months at a time to put those cases on hold and go around and do jump outs at Home Depot to try to grab, you know, people who, you know, again, are only undocumented and have committed no crime.

A (63:39)

That's fucking nuts. That's nuts.

C (63:41)

I mean, it's clear to me that this administration has made this their. Not just a priority, but it seems like the only crime that they are concerned with pursuing. And so absolutely, all across this country, investigations are going unstaffed and unopened simply because they just don't have the resources. And that's not just the retasking and reassigning of federal agents. It's also, you have to take into account the amount of federal agents that are leaving the profession altogether because they don't want to be a part of this.

A (64:17)

I do have to correct you there, Michael. I think that the administration is focused on two types of crimes, immigration crime and also technicalities on your mortgage. If you're a Democrat, you got to make sure that your mortgage filings.

C (64:32)

$19,000 is a lot of money.

A (64:34)

Yeah. You want to make sure that all the T's are crossed and I's are dotted on your mortgage if you're a Democrat. And that's something that they're investigating pretty closely.

C (64:43)

Thankfully for me, Tim, under this administration and this economy, I will never own a home in my entire life. And so I don't.

A (64:51)

Certainly not two.

C (64:52)

Right. I don't ever have to worry about applying for a mortgage and getting busted.

A (64:56)

Last thing, just for kicks. They're moving. Little Greg Bevino. Do you know that guy, the CBP guy? The little Nazi guy y with the Nazi haircut that looks like he's in Inglourious Basterds. He's doing like the salutes and stuff. With his hand while he, like, stands, you know, on top of, like, multiple booster seats, he's been pushed out of Chicago. He might be coming to New Orleans. Hope not. Charlotte is the other name that's out there, according to the Washington Examiner. I should just say this really quick, quick aside as a point of personal privilege, the Washington examiner supposed news outlet on the right has this headline about this story. Greg Bevino leading border patrol into new battle in Charlotte. New battle in Charlotte. Sorry, guys, that's not like, how things work, actually. You know, law, federal law enforcement, border patrol agencies aren't battling American citizens in American cities. But anyway, I'm sorry that they're like little fucking, like, you know, mini me, sadist porn, immigration porn is what they're going for there. But I don't think that's how the government's supposed to work. Anywho, I want to play JD Pritzker talking about little Greg leaving town.

C (66:06)

All I can say is that, you know, whether it was the loss in the elections a week ago that's led to Donald Trump deciding to pull CBP out or the fact that Greg Bevino is a snowflake on a day when you can see some snowflakes, whatever it is, the people of Chicago have deserved better than having CBP and Greg Bevino in this city.

A (66:30)

Little snowflake, I like the idea of making fun of him. I'm wondering what you think about Pritzker there and if you can like, maybe one up him with any thoughts that you have about Greg Bevino.

C (66:38)

I wish we could clone Pritzker and replace every Democratic governor, maybe with the exception of Gavin Newsom, but I'll be honest with you. Gavin's got some baggage. I'll take. I don't know how many Democratic governors we have, but I'll just take a bunch of JB Pritzkers.

A (66:56)

You're on the Pritzker posse.

C (66:57)

Yeah, I like that guy.

A (66:59)

Because you like the name calling.

C (67:00)

Yeah, I like the name calling. I. I think that I come from the camp. When they go low, you get in the gutter.

A (67:09)

Yeah.

C (67:10)

And I think that that's the only thing really that. That the MAGA world responds to. I will say, you know, you. You talked about Greg Bevino's stature, and I remember seeing this photograph of Bavino going into the federal courthouse, you know, when he was called in there to report about, you know, the many crimes that he and ICE agents had been committing throughout the city.

A (67:35)

Did he use the doggy door?

C (67:36)

No, but I saw this. No, I saw this picture and it was him. And there was like four. He's surrounded by four CBP agents in full tactical gear, masks, the whole nine yards. And they looked like they were 10ft tall. And I was like, damn, where did they get these giant customs and border patrol officers? And I forget who I was talking to, but they're like, no, dude, Bavino is like 5 foot 2. And I was like, they're just normal sized guys. Bavino is like a legit, he's a little person. But I, you know, definitely he's got, you know, he's got the, the small man complex and he's just. Of all the, I gotta say, of all the Trump orbit, Trump world clown car passengers, Bavino to me is, is numero uno. Like, he is just the biggest buffoon that I've ever seen. You know, whether it's that weird, the hand gestures that he did when he was leaving the courthouse, he's a clown, but he's also, you know, he's a very sadistic individual that clearly revels and, and takes joy in the pain and suffering of others. And so I look forward to some accountability when it comes to Bevino and seeing that guy on the other side of a jail cell.

A (69:07)

Bars we can only dream. Michael Fanone, I appreciate you so much, buddy. Appreciate your service. Thanks for doing the pod and we'll be talking again soon. All right, great.

C (69:15)

Good to see you, Tim.

A (69:16)

All right, thanks so much to microphone and to Governor elect Mikey Sherrill, New Jersey. Check us out over on the next level feed. We got so much more coming at you today and we'll be back with another edition of the podcast tomorrow. Look forward to seeing you all then. Peace. Boardwalking on the boardwalk New Jersey Shore if I come to New York can I sleep on your floor? Been living out of a suitcase on the motel floor and running up tabs at the corner store at the corner store so barely walking on the boardwalk any when summer gets along your hair gets too long Picking up the habit dream long before four when July is gone I'll be 24 then not anymore and not anymore Sam the Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.