Morris Katz: Tax the Billionaires

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast – March 4, 2026

Guest: Morris Katz ("Tax the Billionaires")

Host: Tim Miller
Summary by Bulwark Podcast Summarizer

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features a deep, candid conversation between Tim Miller and rising Democratic strategist Morris Katz—best known for his work on Zoran Mamdani’s mayoral campaign—about populist left strategies, political authenticity, coalition-building, the challenges of progressive messaging in today’s political context, and how to unite the party (and country) around taxing the super-rich. The episode covers campaign stories, key divides on the left, media strategy, and reflections on recent high-profile races. The tone is witty, irreverent, and occasionally fiercely critical.

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Episode Breakdown

1. Morris Katz's Origin Story in Campaign Politics

• Timestamps: 01:29 – 04:21
• Morris grew up in lower Manhattan; both parents in the arts.
• Started as a political writer, his first big break came after profiling a North Carolina House candidate who directly recruited him due to his strong grasp of campaign messaging.
• His “100 counties in 100 days” tour in rural NC taught him to reframe left messages in terms people actually cared about. Instead of “Green New Deal,” he learned to talk about breaking up energy monopolies, GoFundMe healthcare, universal broadband, etc.
  • “We need to take on Duke Energy because there should not be one energy monopoly ruling this city. Rural North Carolina deserves better than a GoFundMe healthcare system and a dollar store economy. We need a real new deal…” (M. Katz, 03:13)
• Developed video/communications chops, later staffed John Fetterman’s pivotal Senate campaign.
• Emphasizes learning to adjust language to resonate locally—populism over abstract progressive jargon.

2. Working with Zoran Mamdani, NYC's Populist Mayor

• Timestamps: 05:11 – 07:39
• Introduced to Zoran via mutual friend; impressed by Zoran’s clarity, charisma, and specific affordable-housing agenda.
• “You either have it, or you don’t… and he has it.” (M. Katz, 05:16)
• Strategies for turning an ideological campaign into broad resonance—Zoran had a bold, specific mission rather than just filling an open office.
• Katz jokes he’s “coaching Michael Jordan”—strategy can help, but underlying talent is indispensable.

3. Navigating Trump & White House Meetings

• Timestamps: 07:03 – 11:24
• Surreal experience in the Oval Office—Morris describes a focus on practical outcomes, not ideological point-scoring.
• The approach: always pivot back to concrete wins for New Yorkers rather than get lost fighting with Trump on values.
  • “We’re not going there to change Donald Trump’s politics… you’re going there because you’re the mayor of New York and your job is to make life better for New Yorkers.” (Katz, 08:11)
• If Trump had crossed racist “red lines,” Zoran would call it out, but refocus on bread-and-butter issues.
• Laughs at rumors that a young woman’s release from ICE was due to Trump’s attraction to her—says they only brought Daily News covers as props, not personal photos.

4. The “Horseshoe” Problem and Populist Alliances

• Timestamps: 12:03 – 15:16
• Miller worries Zoran-Trump engagement may create a left/right populist horseshoe that abandons liberals and “provides cover for Trump.”
• Katz: Liberal/neoliberal Democrats failed to deliver. Instead, “actual swing voters” are increasingly anti-establishment. Engaging them on common ground demonstrates Democrats “can roll up their sleeves,” opening doors to winning them.
  • “The horseshoe exists for voters. It’s a question of whether our politicians are ever going to meet them there as well.” (Katz, 14:31)
• Contrasts tactical focus: Zoran comes with an actionable agenda (“get someone released,” “get a housing agreement”).
• Critiques Democratic leadership’s “incoherence” and failure to articulate plans, especially in war contexts.

5. Democratic Messaging, War, and Chuck Schumer’s Gaffe

• Timestamps: 16:14 – 19:34
• Tim Miller and Katz both slam the “blob mentality” and lack of coherent Democratic messaging on Iran.
• Miller: “No war for Iran... It's just crazy, it's a betrayal of his voters.”
• Katz: “It is the easiest possible message every single person agrees on, except for a handful of the most powerful Democrats in the country.” (19:34)

6. Israel, NYC, and Managing the Antisemitism Discourse

• Timestamps: 21:15 – 26:44
• The Gaza war became central in the mayoral campaign largely due to rivals and media, not proactive Zoran messaging.
  • “We held zero press conferences being like... we want to talk about what's happening in Gaza.” (Katz, 22:10)
• Condemning antisemitism is a core principle; Zoran’s credibility comes from “calling out hate universally.”
• Frustrated with social media narratives: often what Zoran actually says about antisemitism is drowned out or obscured by algorithmic feeds.
• Discussion of Katz’s “family crest” tattoo—lighthearted riff on his Jewish heritage.

7. The Social Media Pipeline: Gaza, Antizionism, and Online Radicalization

• Timestamps: 27:14 – 30:40
• Miller notes some left-wing, pro-Gaza online advocacy exposes activists to genuine antisemites (Tucker, Candace Owens, Nick Fuentes, etc.).
• Katz: “My biggest pet peeve as a Jewish [person] is the very deliberate lane of messaging that makes no distinction between Zionism and Judaism. It makes that a lot easier.” (28:29)
• Calls for clear, constant distinction between criticism of Israel and antisemitism; criticizes Schumer for conflating the two.
• “Not all anti-Zionism is antisemitism, but antisemitism can manifest as anti-Zionism.” (Katz, 30:27)

8. Policy Pragmatism, the “Technocratic Socialist,” and Governing Realities

• Timestamps: 30:48 – 33:23
• Miller points out that Zoran, despite his radical reputation, has made pragmatic decisions—refusing to protest Hochul, making peace with trade unions, managing homelessness, and “abundancy” reform.
• Katz: Executive office demands day-to-day problem-solving; reality forces pragmatism.
  • “What makes him a uniquely good leader is the belief not just in like big government, but that for us to have big government, we need to have excellent government… It’s about a government firing on all cylinders every single day.” (Katz, 32:17)

9. National Races: Texas, Talarico vs. Crockett

• Timestamps: 34:35 – 38:38
• Katz praises James Talarico’s “top-bottom” populist campaign—against both corporate elites and more traditional Democratic messaging.
  • “The fundamental issue in our country right now is a consolidation of power and wealth at the very top, and everyone else is being screwed.” (Katz, 35:38)
• Critiques campaigns that fail to communicate why Trump is a betrayal for working people.
• Points to the “Kamala conundrum”—candidates stuck between alienating both left and center.

10. Left Populism vs. Social Issues: Electability in Red States

• Timestamps: 39:47 – 48:34
• Miller is skeptical that left economic populism is enough without flexibility on cultural issues (guns, cops, immigration, etc.)—especially in red states.
• Katz: Economic populism is “the starter kit”—beyond that, candidates should “meet voters where they are,” tailoring social issue stances locally.
  • “The left-wing populism... is not the end all be all. It’s just a starting place for viability and everything else should be flexible.” (Katz, 43:01)
• Opines it’s more a matter of prioritization and rhetorical approach than 100% ideological lockstep.

11. The Graham Platner Senate Campaign and "Populist Authenticity"

• Timestamps: 50:45 – 57:52
• Miller probes the risks with Graham Platner’s campaign given controversial episodes (Nazi tattoo accusations, media affiliations).
• Katz: “If Janet Mills is so electable, why does no one fucking want to vote for her?” (Katz, 51:41); describes Platner’s appeal in working-class, rural Maine.
• Defends Platner’s authenticity against “downwardly mobile old money” jibes; describes deep roots in his community and genuine hard times.
• On accusations of right-wing interviews/tattoos: “He does dozens of interviews a week… cherry-picking a few things, you can do that with any campaign.” (Katz, 54:41)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “You either have it or you don’t... and he [Zoran] has it.”
  — Morris Katz ([05:16])
• “The horseshoe exists for voters. It’s a question of whether our politicians are ever going to meet them there as well.”
  — Morris Katz ([14:31])
• “It's the easiest possible message every single person agrees on, except for a handful of the most powerful Democrats in the country.”
  — Morris Katz (on anti-war messaging, [19:34])
• “My biggest pet peeve as a Jewish is the very deliberate lane of messaging that makes no distinction between Zionism and Judaism. It makes that a lot easier... [for antisemites].”
  — Morris Katz ([28:29])
• “Not all anti-Zionism is antisemitism, but antisemitism certainly at moments manifests as anti-Zionism. There should be room to condemn it where it is.”
  — Morris Katz ([30:27])
• “For us to have big government, we need to have excellent government.”
  — Morris Katz ([32:17])
• “The fundamental issue in our country right now is a consolidation of power and wealth at the very top, and everyone else is being screwed.”
  — Morris Katz ([35:38])
• “The left-wing populism... is not the end all be all. It’s just a starting place for viability and everything else should be flexible off of the specific place you’re running and off of the electorate you have in the communities you’re in.”
  — Morris Katz ([43:01])
• “If Janet Mills is so electable, why does no one fucking want to vote for her?”
  — Morris Katz ([51:41])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Katz’s career and early lessons in populist messaging: 01:29 – 04:21
• Meeting and campaign with Zoran Mamdani: 05:11 – 07:39
• Behind the scenes at White House meetings with Trump: 07:03 – 11:24
• Cross-ideological left/right “horseshoe” and coalition concerns: 12:03 – 15:16
• War messaging, Democratic incoherence, Schumer gaffes: 16:14 – 19:34
• Israel/Gaza, antisemitism, social media narrative warfare: 21:15 – 26:44
• Social media pipelines and distinguishing anti-Zionism/antisemitism: 27:14 – 30:40
• Zoran’s pragmatic progressivism in office: 30:48 – 33:23
• Texas primary, Talarico’s populist win: 34:35 – 38:38
• Kamala conundrum, left populism, and culture war traps: 39:47 – 48:34
• Vetting Graham Platner, authenticity, and campaign controversies: 50:45 – 57:52
• Playful rapid-fire (Conor Lamb, sex, tattoos, future plans): 58:33 – 64:43
• Bipartisan Kumbaya: “Cut environmental red tape to build more houses, and we’re gonna tax the fuck out of the rich.” ([63:35])

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Final Synthesis: Takeaways

• Katz is a shrewd, media-savvy progressive strategist anchored in practical populist messaging and skeptical of “neoliberal” party dogmas.
• Effective left populism must blend authenticity, tangible results, emotional resonance, and place-tailored pragmatism.
• The battle for the Democratic Party's future—and for national majorities—turns on uniting around economic populism while showing strategic, culturally-sensitive flexibility, not dogmatism.
• Both host and guest agree on the need for “painful taxation” of the super-wealthy and for cutting through the stale “corporate establishment vs. left” dichotomy with new, outcome-driven coalition politics.

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For full details, listen to the timestamped highlights above.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the show. He was the lead media strategist for Zoran Mamdani's campaign for mayor. He's based at the Democratic strategy firm Fight Agency, where he's worked with other populist upstarts like Graham Platner and Dan Osborne. He used to lie about his age, but now he's comfortable telling people that he's 26 and a half years old. Morris Katz. What's up, Morris?

[Morris Katz]

Good to see you, Tim. And I just want. I'm two months till my birthday, so we're well into 3/4 ranch.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. 26 and 3/4.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, wow. Good for you. Congratulations. I'm very happy for you. I hope I get invited to the party. We've got a bunch to talk about the Texas Senate primaries. We got to talk about Graham and Zoran. But for people who aren't familiar with your lore, where did you come from? How did a 26¾ year old man end up as Zoran's wingman at the White House?

[Morris Katz]

Pretty randomly. I. I grew up in lower Manhattan. Both my parents are kind of in the arts or arts adjacent. Always thought that I was gonna be a, you know, TV writer, screenwriter or playwright like my father, and then was writing about kind of a variety of things and had written this profile about a woman who was running for office in North Carolina. I'd always liked politics, but it was kind of like a, you know, hobby. Followed it the way I follow the New York Knicks or something, but I never dreamed of being on the. On the bench with the Knicks. And the candidate reached out to me afterwards and was like, this really captured my voice in campaign vision. Would you ever think about coming and working for me? And it was during COVID I was

[Tim Miller]

like, how did she find it? Did you post it?

[Morris Katz]

I was like writing a number of different things. And I'd reached out to her because it seemed like an interesting story. And as soon as she read it, she was like, this is great. Which I guess is an interesting avenue to get hired. Places to write glowing profiles about people and then be like, can I have a job? But then went to North Carolina and really informed. The part that I think you'd appreciate of it is we did this 100 county, 100 day tour that kind of informed my entire political identity in some ways of like, you know, in hindsight, I was such an idiot of we, you know, kind of pushing the can of like, we should be talking about the Green New Deal and UBI and, you know, we're in all these rural counties in North Carolina, 80, 20 Trump counties. And you see, like you say, like some of the. Some of this language in people's eyes, you know, glass over there, like that checked out. And by the end of the 100 county tour, we kind of tweaked a lot of that. So it was what I would argue is equally progressive or populist, but more in the lane that we as a party should be. If it would be like, we need to take on Duke Energy because there should not be one energy monopoly ruling this city. Rural North Carolina deserves better than a GoFundMe healthcare system and a dollar store economy. We need a real new deal because we should have universal broadband and post offices, should have banking. So, like, you know, this kind populism that actually would resonate and you'd see people's heads shaking and standing up and clapping. And so that was kind of my formative experience. But while I was there, I started making videos and ads because I knew how, because I worked on sets throughout my childhood and high school years and some of my college years. And so then other people started hitting me up being like, hey, who made this video? I was like, I did. And then one thing led to another. Then a colleague, Tommy McDonald, hired me and was like, hey, you're starting to do some progressive stuff. I do a lot of progressive stuff and I'm trying to win the 51st Senate seat in John Fetterman. Do you want to come work with me and do those things together? I was like, hell, hell, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

We're going to get back to Fetterman in a minute, too. I did do some research. I used to be an oppo man. That North Carolina House race, it's important to have a good origin story, and I love that for you.

[Morris Katz]

Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

You did lose that, like, 63 to 30, though. I mean, you got.

[Morris Katz]

I did, but know why?

[Tim Miller]

Really gross.

[Morris Katz]

We were up in a poll three weeks out and then APAC spent $3 million. Come on. In the final three weeks of that race, $3 million.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not sure that, I mean, there are some powerful ads out there. You've made some powerful ads, but I don't know if a 33 point swing from a super PAC ad, I don't know. I don't know. We can go back and. We can go back and relive what happened in that, in that race. So you end up meeting Zoran. I kind of figured you guys were like old buddies, you hang out a lot. Morris is everywhere with Zoran. But that's not true. He asked you to come onto the campaign or what had that happen?

[Morris Katz]

He asked to get a cup of coffee. We were introduced by a mutual friend, Jeff. Jeff Simpson. I remember kind of being skeptical of like, oh, can a 33 year old Muslim socialist become the next mayor of New York City? And within five minutes I was like, this guy can become the next mayor of New York City. Without a doubt. You've talked to him. He's got like, you either have it or you don't. And I think like people don't like to talk about that side of politics, but it's true. And he has it, you know, a lot of people, I think particularly for officers like Mayor, it's kind of like, oh, I'm running for this office because this is an office that's open. And he had such a distinct analysis of how this office could be used to address an affordability crisis. And it was just like, you know, sometimes in those first meetings you ask a candidate, why are you running? And you get like four minutes of like, well, you know. And it was just.

[Tim Miller]

This happened to me with Scott Walker. It sounds like the inverse of my meeting with Scott Walker when he was governor of Wisconsin. I was like, why do you want to be president? And he gave me like a UW lacrosse college Republican stump speech. And I was like, wait a minute. And then at the end of it he's like, aren't you supposed to help me with that? I was like, I'm 27.

[Morris Katz]

No, hey, you can't not to shit on 27 year olds though.

[Tim Miller]

I know, but you're running for president.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, so you and Zoran, he has it, you become pals. I start running the long shot campaign or doing, being the ad guy for it. You're supposed to be on last week, I should say, but you snubbed Me for Donald Trump, because we had scheduled you to be here the day that Zoran was going to see Trump. And you wanted. You just wanted to hang out again. It was your second time at the White House with zoning.

[Morris Katz]

I thought, why hang out with a rhino when I can hang out with a real Republican who never backed away from what they believed in?

[Tim Miller]

That's fair. Or somebody that you have some populist affinities for. We're going to get to that in a second. What was it like? You go twice. It's got to be strange.

[Morris Katz]

The entire experience with the mayor has been surreal. And you find yourself in a lot of positions you never imagined being in. And I think, you know, and this one was, you know, the mayor's chief of staff, Al. And the mayor and president's chief of staff and the president in the Oval talking through the kind of, you know, details of some of the stuff that's been laid out. It's crazy to see. And I think I'm still processing anyways, the way when it's so much of the kind of political universe I think does now revolve around the mayor of New York in a way that he's someone who no one knew who he was a year ago. And it, you know, constantly feels like a fever jam.

[Tim Miller]

What was the plan for Trump the first time? The second time, I assume you kind of had your sea legs a little bit and kind of knew what you were to get into. But the first time, Trump does these things where he bring. And you saw it happen to Core. Gretchen Whitmer, she's there in the Oval Office to try to get a. I forget now. It's been a while. I think it was a military base for Michigan. And next thing you know, Trump's doing an executive order talking about how he wants Chris Krebs to be put in jail and she's hiding behind a manila folder. You don't know what's gonna happen, right? Like, Zoran could have gone in there and Trump could said that, you know, he's sending the troops into. Into Queens, you know, probably not Queens. Sending the troops into Harlem, you know, to find the Dominican, whatever, you know. And how did you kind of plot that out, how to navigate that?

[Morris Katz]

I think one thing, like, surprises people continuously about the mayor is. And I think this is the kind of thing like you would agree with, or else where it's like his job is to tangibly improve the lives of New Yorkers. And he's, like, pretty relentlessly focused on that. And so I think there's like, you know, if you strip everything else away, it's like, Donald Trump is the President of the United States. We don't have control over that at this moment. We fucked that up when we had the chance. And it's like the President, United States has an incredible ability to improve or decrease the quality of life for New Yorkers. And it like, you know, I think in the kind of public portion of that meeting, you saw the mayor relentlessly pivot back to, what can we find in common? To address the affordability crisis in New York. To improve the quality of life for New Yorkers, to keep New Yorkers safe. And that was not dissimilar to, if you heard any of the private conversations. It was like, we're not going there to change Donald Trump's politics. We're not going there to, you know, argue about all the very public areas of disagreement. It's, you're going there because you're the mayor of New York and your job is to make life better for New Yorkers.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean, that obviously worked out. And luckily, as you mentioned, he's got it. He's charming. There had to have been some red lines though, right? I mean, what if Trump, if Trump was out there talking about how Haitians are eating dogs and cats in Harlem? I have to assume that Zoran's response to that wasn't going to be, well, that's possible, sir, but I'm really just looking forward to making housing and rent more affordable for the dog eating Haitians. Right. That wasn't going to be the answer.

[Morris Katz]

No. Yeah. That would not have been the scripted, scripted response. No. I think, like, but I think again, like, this is even being clear in the public parts where it's like, there's a lot of room for me to be like, Mr. President, I disagree with that in every front. I think it's offensive. I think it's racist. I don't accept talking about my constituents like that. I'm here to talk about how we can build more housing, how we can lower the cost of groceries, how we can address the affordability crisis we both ran on. I think what's made the mayor's coalition so large is this, like, pretty simple premise and Donald Trump is the most extreme example of it. But we can disagree on a lot of different things. But that shouldn't preclude us from focusing on areas of potential agreement. And that's like the fundamental nature of coalition building.

[Tim Miller]

When you're in there the second time, Trump does like to ask random people that he likes for their opinions on things Did. So you get quizzed about the Iran war because you were there right before

[Morris Katz]

Iran did not come up.

[Tim Miller]

Was Marco wasn't around. You didn't have a chat with him.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah. It was all focused on New York.

[Tim Miller]

There was the Colombian young woman that had been detained that Zoran had talked to President Trump about about the ICE had stormed into a Columbia dorm and detained her. And there are a couple other people that he mentioned. She got released. There was some chatter on social media that you brought the picture of her because she was pretty good looking and that Trump maybe gave her amnesty because of that. Is that what happened?

[Morris Katz]

The only printout brought was of the Daily News covers.

[Tim Miller]

Who came up with the Daily News? Did you do the Daily News cover?

[Morris Katz]

That was. That was the mayor.

[Tim Miller]

That was.

[Morris Katz]

I always say like, people always like, you know, oh, like your strategy. I'm like, it's like coaching Michael Jordan, you know, like that's not to say like Phil Jackson's not a great coach or anything, but it's like Michael Jordan's getting 35 a game no matter what.

[Tim Miller]

And that was comparing yourself to the Zen master. Now you're comparing yourself to the Zen master.

[Morris Katz]

Wait till you see my Montana ranch and what I do when I take over the New York knicks when I'm 70.

[Tim Miller]

So no. So it wasn't her hotness, it was Zorin just compelled him that the compelling

[Morris Katz]

argument of human of our shared humanity. Timothy. Wow.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not sure if I believe about that. Here's my concern about the meeting. Can I offer this to you? Here's my concern about how I handle it because I agree with everything you said in the micro right of he's the mayor of New York and he's got an obligation to his constituents, including that young woman and thank God she's out and hopefully you can make things more affordable for people in New York. That said, he also is like an avatar now for this kind of left politics. And I worry that there is a horseshoe alliance against just regular liberals that gets formed where Zoran and Trump are kind of chumming it up and younger people in particular who don't like the establishment and don't like the Democratic Party and don't think that liberals are incompetent, are like, hey, look at these guys. They're both outsiders fighting, fighting the corporate establishment. And that in some way it kind of, I don't know, like provides some cover for Trump and for, for MAGA folks. Does that. Do you guys think about that? So worry about you at all.

[Morris Katz]

I think it's obviously like a valid, like, personally, my point is, like, I don't fully disagree with the analysis. Like, I think, I think the president oftentimes is not delivering on any of those things that he ran on. But I do think, like, in general, the kind of what you're defining here is like, the liberal wing or the neoliberal wing of the party has been, like, totally ineffective and has failed a lot of people. And I think showing, you know, I think, like, when we talk about, like, the swing voter or the persuadable voter, it's oftentimes still framed in like, we're talking about, like, the suburban mom who had voted for Romney, then voted for Hillary. And it's like, what we've, if we've seen anything, we've seen that, like, that's not a sustainable electoral coalition and that the actual, like, swing voters are a lot of the people who, you know, you're referencing here, who frankly are already there on Trump, on the president, like the mayor going and doing some, you know, creating some big scene or isn't going to then suddenly make them dislike the president. That's where they are. But I think the mayor going and showing, hey, Democrats can talk about affordability, too. Democrats can be concerned about an affordability crisis. Democrats can roll up their sleeves and get to work and want to get things done and engage and meet them on platforms where they are actually opens a door crack to, maybe the Democratic Party is redeemable. Maybe there are some Democrats I'm willing to vote for and kind of creates a lane of communication that doesn't exist otherwise. And I think the horseshoe exists for voters. And it's a question of whether our politicians are ever going to meet them there as well.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I guess I said this when it happened. If you have an alternate universe, a bizarro world where Hakeem goes to the Oval Office and smiles with Trump and, and the end of that, the outgrowth of it is, hey, we've got 12,000 new houses that are being built. I think that a lot of the left populist, anti establishment types would be like, fuck you, Hakeem. Like, screw this. Like, that's like you went and met with the fascist and you got 12,000 houses out of it. The corporate shills, you know, and so maybe that's just, you know, the nice part about working for Michael Jordan.

[Morris Katz]

But I think that's fair. But I also think, like, there's a reality of their positions where it's like the mayor is not in charge of negotiating the budget for the US Federal government or something. You know, it's like, this is the area where there is room for collaboration and it kind of is under his job description. I also think there's a, you know, a sense of the mayor going with purpose. And I think a lot of times the thing that's felt frustrating about Democratic leadership and its engagement with Trump is like, I can't even articulate back to you what the plan is. And it's like, agree with it or disagree with it. You can articulate back to me like, the mayor went in with an agenda to get someone released, with an agenda to get an agreement on housing within it. And sometimes you watch those, like, with the war, like Democrats put out the, I think at least it was like in 36 hours emergency virtual caucus meeting. And like, that's not the world we live in anymore. How is there not an immediate emergency Hawks. How is there not like. I think it's the incoherence that sometimes draws the ear.

[Tim Miller]

Here's one example of that where I'll agree with you. This was yesterday, Chuck Schumer talking about the war itself.

[Morris Katz]

Look, no one wants a nuclear war. No one wants a nuclear Israel, but we certainly don't want an endless war, plain and simple. What did I say? Oh, no, Scott, let me say that again. No one wants an endless war, but we certainly don't want a nuclear Iran, that's for sure.

[Tim Miller]

So there you go. Chuck's point there is that he has the gaffe about nuclear Israel, which is kind of like the kid which has

[Morris Katz]

to be in the running for, yeah, Freudian slip of the monk easily.

[Tim Miller]

And then he says, no one wants an endless war, which to me is like the wrong construct for this if you're a Democrat on the Hill right now. Because I don't think any Democrats want a one day war with Iran. They didn't want to go in at all. And so it feels like he's leaving the door open for him. It kind of speaks to your point about what Zorin had a discreet task and it's like, what is he even asking for here? The message is very muddled.

[Morris Katz]

I've been shocked by the degree that a lot of Democrats have focused in on the lack of congressional intervention or approval when on the verge of starting a war and being like, my issue with this war is I didn't have the opportunity to vote for it is crazy. And even like the people who are just like, how come, you know, Congress needs to vote on this now? It's like, how is. How would you vote? You're not even saying in your tweets and your statements or in your cable news hits how you'd vote and is indicative of this, like, total blob mentality where there's just such a, like, broken DC mind thing of, like, the real outrage here is that we haven't weighed in on the war. And it's like, how could you be so far removed from what anyone's thinking? And I think also you have like. And, you know, I think, like, you're seeing what you're seeing with like, Barry Weiss at CBS or something is just, you know, that the drumbeat of war and seeing a party that seems totally incapable of understanding. Maybe it's our obligation to be making the arguments against this war even where people are already naturally trending. But it's like there's this kind of waiting to see where the polling is going to come down thing that I think is just so insane where it's like, no, it's the easiest argument to make. It's the morally necessary argument to make. Just make it. And instead you get this, like, Chuck Schumer, we shouldn't have a nuclear Israel. We shouldn't have a nuclear Iran. We shouldn't have endless war. It's like, what? Like, no, the president's brand on delivering an era of peace and affordability. And instead costs are going up and he's dragging us back into the Middle East. It's a slam dunk political message. And whatever, like, whatever the opposite of coaching Michael Jordan is, is what it feels like watching Chuck Schumer, where it's like an open layup and he's just missing and missing and bobbling the ball around.

[Tim Miller]

I keep saying this because I'm like, maybe it'll help break through to the Democrats that listen to me or watch Nicole Wallace. It's like, I used to be. I'm a neocon. Like, I want freedom for the Iranian people. And I'm even like, this is crazy. This is crazy. It's just, no war for Iran. John Bolton was like, hey, no war. Like, they don't have a plan. It was a horrendous idea. They shouldn't be doing it. It's a betrayal of his voters. It's going to make things more expensive. No, no.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah. It is the easiest possible message every single person agrees on, except for a handful of the most powerful Democrats in the country.

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[Tim Miller]

the other element to all this to the Chuck Schumer gaff about how we don't want to nuclear Israel is the question of Israel, which obviously was strangely central in the New York mayor's race. My podcast contributed to that a little bit when I asked Zoran about globalizing the Tifada. We'll get back to that in a second. But I thought one of his best answers in the debate was when they were asking about who's going to visit Israel and everybody else was like I will. And so on was like, I'm just going to stay in New York. I'm not planning any trips. But how did you, you're Jewish and kind of navigate that becoming so central to race, where Zoran's strong position on the war on the Gaza war ends up making this kind of a New York mayor's race that's partly about what's happening in New York, but partly about these other issues. How did you guys navigate that?

[Morris Katz]

I think the part to me that was both, I think telling and frustrating at times is the mayor, when asked about this stuff, was always honest and direct with where he is in his position and has A long record of being outspoken on this issue. But, like, we held zero press conferences being like, know what we want to do today? We want to talk about. We running for mayor of New York City want to talk about what's happening in Gaza, or we want to talk, like, he'd be asked about it. He'd comment. You know, there are things he'd call out on social media that were clear. But it was really like the Cuomo campaign and some of the kind of, you know, mainstream media and other else that were obsessed with this issue. And I think it then became this kind of. Of circular effect where I'd hear from people in my life would be like, all, all. Zoran's talking about Israel, and it's like, no, no, all. He's having a press conference on fast and free buses, and he's getting six questions about Israel, and Andrew Cuomo is sending three press releases a day about Israel. That debate moment, to me was, like, indicative of the campaign, its entirety, where it's like, you have, like, Andrew Cuomo, a handful of people kind of screaming from the rooftops, well, this guy is calling it a genocide. And then you have, like, the voters of New York kind of being like, well, yeah, it seems like a genocide. And also, why are you talking about it so much? And it's like a little, you know, it was like, I feel like it's the reverse where people are like, well, Zoran just can't shut the up about Israel. It's like, no, no, Andrew Cuomo couldn't shut the up about Israel because there's this disconnect with, like, the, you know, it's all you're hearing from, like, the donor class and from powerful special interests. And it's actually like, I think, where the, you know, there are a handful of voters who have very strong feelings on both sides. I think what the average voter is and is like, why do my politicians seem, like, a little incoherent when they're talking about this? And why are they talking about it so much? And it feels fake.

[Tim Miller]

The way to did connect to New York is a local issue is concerns about anti Semitism. Like, there were anti Semitic attacks in New York. There's been an uptick in that recently for a while. I've read some of the other interviews you did where you talked about how you had family members that were worried about this and finger wagging you about Zoran's perceived role in that. How did you guys process that? And what did you feel like your responsibility was around the question of not what was happening in Israel, but anti Semitic threats in the city, I think,

[Morris Katz]

and I continue to believe, not only is, obviously, is the mayor 100,000% committed to combating anti Semitism as aggressively and openly as possible, but also that he's someone who's uniquely able to do it and that he has credibility because of his universal ability to call out hate and bigotry and human rights violations. And so he. There's no more credible messenger on these things than that. And I think, you know, and he'll say this is that there's sometimes, I think in the kind of social media clip era, there's a obligation to say everything all the time. Sometimes, you know, it's like there'll be a clip where he's asked about something and in the clip he's responding to the question. And then people like, well, you didn't say Hamas is a terrorist organization. And so he says he's, you know, he said it a million times. He didn't say it in that one clip. But then that clip circulating and it creates this kind of hysteria on the kind of personal front. It's just, it's deeply frustrating experience, kind of getting in these interactions around, like, this is someone who I know. This is someone who I love. This is someone who I know there is, you know, not a bad bone in his body who so deeply thinks about these things and cares about these things and feels these things. Yet you're telling me because you saw like some kind of chopped up clip on social media. Who he is is a little grating

[Tim Miller]

at times, but you guys are aware. I mean, look, has there been any campaign more aware of the social media obligations and opportunities than you guys? And in some ways, I would point this out in your defense a lot of times, like, he was obviously conscious of posting condemnations when there were anti Semitic acts in New York. And like, look, there are bad things that happen in New York to people of every race and, you know, religious background. Every day, like, it's a big fucking city, lots of bad stuff happens. So he can't post a tweet every time something bad happens to somebody. But, like, it seemed like he was conscious of that, which was important.

[Morris Katz]

Absolutely. What I mean by the social media thing is merely like the nature of algorithms. We post those. Like, I would have conversations with people and they'd be like, why? Why didn't he condemn abc? And I'm like, he did. Like, and I'd pull up the statements, but it's like their algorithms aren't feeding that their algorithms are feeding them a video of him at some point, you know, and it's like the kind of construction of breakthrough into some of those bubbles.

[Tim Miller]

Here's something I worry about with the algorithm. I'm wondering your perspective. I feel like a little bit as a Catholic, this feels like fake. As a cradle Catholic, it feels like, why am I imputing this concern onto you rather than you just doing it? But you have. Your family has a fake Jewish crest. You have a fake Jewish crest tattoo.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah. Do you want to show us?

[Tim Miller]

It's not a Nazi tattoo. There's no skull, no fake Jewish crest.

[Morris Katz]

It is, yeah. A cat's family crest. Because Jews could have crests too.

[Tim Miller]

You understand? Like the algorithmic thing that I worry about, because I see it is, and it's kind of related to the horseshoe conversation about Zora going to the White House, is that there are a lot of left folks who had legit, obviously outrage and anger and sadness about what was happening in Gaza. And so they're consuming a lot of social media about that, whether that be images from Gaza or advocates or commentators talking about how bad it was. And then all of a sudden, in their social media algorithm, they started to get Candace Owens and Tucker and Nick Fuentes and Stu Peters because they were saying similar things about Gaza. But then they also are actual anti Semites, actual right wing hate mongers. And you see people, I have friends of friends who have gone down this pipeline from I'm very concerned about Gaza to now. I think that the Epstein files showed grape soda was a code for child sex trafficking and that the Mossad killed Charlie Kirk and that's a real pipeline. And I just wonder if you felt like you guys have some at least obligation to try to be a dam in that pipeline and at least talk about that kind of stuff more just for that reason.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah, absolutely. I think to me, it's what's dangerous. My biggest pet peeve as a Jewish is the very deliberate lane of messaging that makes no distinction between Zionism and Judaism. It makes that a lot easier. You know, if you're one of those people and you're scrolling and then you're scrolling, you see 80% of Democratic politicians, whatever, saying things like it's anti Semitic to say it's a genocide. And then you're suddenly you're someone who's there who believes a genocide. You're like, all right, well then call me an anti Semitic. It opens this door a little bit when there's this. There's. If you're critical of Israel, you're critical of the Jewish people. And if you want to support the Jewish people, you need to be in, you know, lockstep with Israel, I think creates the permission structure for that. And so I think there's an obligation of the kind of anti interventionist, pro Palestine left, you know, to constantly be articulating the distinction between anti Zionism and anti Semitism because we need that to exist and to be clear. And so there's an obligation there. But I also think there's an obligation like what I'd say to Chuck Schumer if he was on this call with us, which would be a good. We should do that at some point. Yeah. The three of us would be like you say, you care so deeply about Israel's safety and Israel's right to exist. You are putting it at risk by conflating all these different things, by pretending that there's not a massive distinction between Netanyahu and between a democratic vision of what government should look like, or between the Jewish people and Israel.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with the distinction between anti Zionism and antisemitism. I also think this. I can't see what's in random people's heart on social media, certainly when they're not showing me their face and it's just whatever, like a random anime avatar. But sometimes when I'm looking in my replies and people are saying the word Zionist, it doesn't seem like it's really just a critique of Bibi Netanyahu. You sometimes see Zionists thrown around a little willy nilly with a malice that I can understand. That might make people a little uncomfortable.

[Morris Katz]

My feeling on it sometimes that not all anti Zionism is anti Semitism, but anti Semitism certainly at moments manifests as anti Zionism. Right. And I think like, you know, there should be room to condemn it where it is.

[Tim Miller]

Such one more thing on Zoron, then I'll get to national stuff. I've been noticing something about Zoran that he's been doing some stuff that I like.

[Morris Katz]

Oh.

[Tim Miller]

And I don't. I don't want to get you into too much trouble.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I have a list of a few things. Things supported Kathy Hochul over Delgado. Kind of an intra family fight. Some of the Working Families Party people have been mad at him. He didn't go to their protest of Hochul. He stranded up to a couple trade unions even a couple times. His homeless camps are being swept. We're doing some abundancy stuff. We talked about that, me and him on this podcast. He's doing some abundancy stuff. He Kept Tish. I keep seeing him do some things that are pretty pragmatic and I don't want to say it, almost technocratic centristy at times, sometimes times, a few things. My theory of the case is because he was so strong on economic populism on Gaza, he has a lot more room to maneuver on this type of stuff than if it was somebody else. I'm wondering what you think of that assessment.

[Morris Katz]

I think a lot of it's also just the nature of an executive position where it's not Congress, where you're just getting to pick what handful of bills you're going to sponsor or something. There's the day to day realities of governing and leading a city.

[Tim Miller]

And I think reality is centrist is what you're saying.

[Morris Katz]

I agree with that.

[Tim Miller]

That's true.

[Morris Katz]

Bradley Tusk at some point said in the general election he was like, you know, Zoran, when you talk to him, he seems like a technocratic socialist and like those with more leftist roots would say, like it's sewer socialism. And I think that's one of the same things we're talking about where it's

[Tim Miller]

like I called him a libertarian socialism the other day when he was defending my right to have a snowball fight.

[Morris Katz]

That was a great clip and my second favorite clip to you telling Hakeem Jeffries to rip the band aid off. What makes him a uniquely good leader is the belief not just in like big government, but that for us to have big government, we need to have excellent government. And like it's not just about the kind of willy nilly expansion of social services, but it's about every single day government firing on all cylinders and like, you know, paving the bump over the Williamsburg Bridge, delivering more housing at a faster rate. All these different, like, how can, you know, all the kind of plowing stuff around the storms, how can there be a government of excellence every single day? And that can lead us to a place where we're no longer a party or a country that's being apologetic about the role government plays because government's excellent. It's helping people's lives. I think like, I mean, you know, Governor Hochul to like the, I think the partnership there is a good example of like, you know, what the big tent party can look like where it's like they don't need to agree on everything. They agree on building more housing, they agree on delivering universal childcare, they agree on keeping New Yorkers safe. They want to take on the affordability crisis. Like that's who, that's you Know who we should be?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I should have mentioned we are even streamlining environmental review for housings. I mean, all of a sudden I'm getting a throw up my leg.

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[Tim Miller]

All right, let's do some national politics. Texas primary last night. James Talarico wins a little more handily than I think people expected in that primary over Jasmine Crockett. I saw a post that you posted about that talking about how this is a win for top bottom politics, which is interesting term.

[Morris Katz]

I saw your pause there and I knew, I was like, let's see if we get through this tweet without interruption.

[Tim Miller]

I mean that's just not probably, I don't know. Well, here's a good thing. I think that there are too many gays running social media accounts for Democrats. Do you agree with that?

[Morris Katz]

I can't speak to the exact numbers on that.

[Tim Miller]

You can't speak to that. I think they're just, we love to, but sometimes I don't, I don't know why every six 75 year old Democrat is tweeting like yes, Queen RuPaul memes. Okay. Like I just, I think that we need authenticity in our communication.

[Morris Katz]

I do agree with that.

[Tim Miller]

Anyway, obviously you guys don't have in Talarico didn't have a gay running this because I think that, I think that they might have tried to rebrand it a little bit. That said, talk to me about why you were drawn by the Talarico campaign and his message.

[Morris Katz]

Now I'm just like so focused on not talking about top versus bottom politics that I can't, I don't even have any other thoughts. Again, like, the, you know, I think a lot about the big tent thing, and I think it's oftentimes used in, like, the worst possible way. You know, people are like, oh, big tent politics. That's why we need, you know, to elevate Joe Manchin and why we need to elevate Kirsten Gillibrand. And, like, I'm interested in the 10. Like, I think James Tariko is indicative of, you know, he talks about these issues very differently than a Graham Platner or then Azor Mundani or than, you know, Dan Osborne or something. But he has the same hypothesis, which is the fundamental issue in our country right now is a consolidation of power and wealth at the very top, and everyone else is being screwed. And I think if you're someone who has that theory of what's going wrong which resonates with everyone, everyone's feeling it, everyone's thinking it. Polls say it, focus groups say it. Anytime you talk to any human being, they're feeling it. And if we were able to start there, anything's possible. And he's someone who, I think brought a unique lens to that and a unique theory of it. And I think it was like a good primary in terms of. Indicative of this. Just, like, are we just gonna be the, like, fuck Donald Trump Party, or are we gonna have a fundamental theory of change in power and thank God that side won out.

[Tim Miller]

Fuck Donald Trump is appealing.

[Morris Katz]

What grade would you give the Jasmine Crockett campaign?

[Tim Miller]

I think it was the second worst campaign, Democratic campaign of, like, the Trump era. Luckily for her, Cal Cunningham sent the creepiest sex that I've ever seen. And. Or not even creepiest. They just were, like, the lamest.

[Morris Katz]

If it was a dick pic, he would have won.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, if you're going to get caught sending sex to somebody that's not your wife, like, at least have some swag.

[Morris Katz]

That was not top, bottom politics. Bottom politics.

[Tim Miller]

So Jasmine had no message for people. She had no message for Trump voters. I think that there is a way to do a Fuck Trump campaign that would probably not work that well in 2028. That worked fine in 2026, which is that Trump betrayed you.

[Morris Katz]

You.

[Tim Miller]

Trump betrayed you. Trump sucks. Like, Trump said that he was going to care about the forgotten man and working people, but when all he's done instead is build himself a new ballroom and give himself random trophies and, like, decide he wants to overthrow foreign governments, like, that's not what you signed up for. He sucks. You should vote for me instead we're going to actually care about you. Right. Like that's, that's a message. But like, Jasmine didn't seem able to articulate that.

[Morris Katz]

Okay. I think even that message, though, still has that kind of starting analysis of like, people went to Trump because they were frustrated with an economy that wasn't working for them, and instead he's doing this other shit that's not delivering on that. And it kind of starts from that point. It felt like the crocky campaign, like, I guess, indicative of a certain block of kind of liberal component of the party. It's all of the second half of what you said without the first. It's like, we hate Trump. He's building a ballroom and he's giving himself trophies and we hate Trump because he says dumb things. And it's like, no, no, we hate Trump because he betrayed. You can't do the second part without the first part.

[Tim Miller]

The thing that Talarico has working for him so far. We'll see how well this lasts to the general. I'll talk about that in a second. But is he was on the right side of what I'm calling the Kamala conundrum, and the Kamala conundrum was this, which is that people like me, not me particularly, because I was very happy to vote for Kamala, couldn't have been more happy to vote for Kamala. But the voters who come from a more kind of whatever capitalist center left background, center or even center right background, they looked at Cumberland, saw California liberal, and the progressive folks that come from more your ideological perspective looked at her and saw a centrist corporate shill. So she was in this sour spot. And I think that Talarico has found the right positioning, which is that lefty people look at him and say, well, not exactly. Not the Bernie of my dreams, but. But he at least seems to get it. And centrist people look at him and say, oh, well, he's maybe a little too left on some stuff, but he at least speaks to my concerns. Right. And how do you, being on the opposite side of me of this, of navigating this paradox, how do you tell your candidates to try to navigate that?

[Morris Katz]

Well, I think, and I think you're self aware on this. Obviously you are the myth of the voter that people think that they're chasing and they're like four of you, you know, it's like, if we can reach that Tim Miller voter.

[Tim Miller]

Well, and we've already switched. This is the other thing I keep telling Democrats, by the way, and they call me if they're like, I'm like, sorry, my people, we. There was a trade. Like, it happened already. Like, the version of me that is an actual voter lives in the Atlanta suburbs. They voted for Evan McMullen in 2016. Then they voted for Lucy McMath. Then Ossoff and Warnock and Biden and Kamala. They're Democrats already. You don't need to talk to them anymore. They've traded. My people have already missed and have already switched over. There were more than four of us, but like, it's already happened. So now you got to find a new type of.

[Morris Katz]

No, I think like, that's like the, like Mandani, Platner, Cal Rico coalition, for lack of a different way of putting it. I think is you get like the populism that speaks to the left and also speaks to kind of harder to ideologically define, you know, not super politically engaged, but like working class voters who are just like, yeah, I'm mad that costs are going up. I'm mad that politicians don't seem to give a. You don't seem like a politician. You seem like you understand that I'm angry and you kind of get that larger appeal. And then also you get like, even the more kind of, you know, moderate conservative where there's a real kind of change element to it. You're not a part of this establishment. That's frustrating, you know, like the kind of moderate or independent thing. I think it's like, that's not coming from a place of. Of. I just want someone right down the middle. I just want someone who's like, really cozy in a Wall street room. It's coming from a place of like, I hate both parties. And the more you can feel like someone who's not a part of both parties, you open that lane or, you know, not being born out of that party establishment. I think Tariko does that. I think Graham does that. I think Zaun does that. Like, that's the kind of way to hold that longer coalition together instead of like making sure we're fully locking down the Tim Miller voter.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you. I appreciate the compliment about my self awareness. I am self aware that Democrats shouldn't try to appeal to me. I worry about your people's self awareness a little bit on one element, which is how well left populism works in red states when also paired with lefty social values across the board. And the Talarico thing, for example, I'm optimistic Ken Paxton wins. It's possible he can win in Texas. People making jokes about the goddess non binary thing. I think that's kind of silly. I don' know that anybody really cares that much about, you know, I think the people who are very committed to God having a penis were not really gettable voters for Democrats, I don't think anyway. But I also saw a clip of him doing a sermon recently where he's talking about the importance of making sure we have abortion protections for trans people. And I'm just like, I don't want to ban anybody. I'm not for the Texas abortion bounty law or any of this stuff, but like, I don't ban know that it's actually true and that there's any evidence that like just being a left wing populism works in red America if you also are down the line part of the cultural left elite. And I'm wondering what you think about that.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah, I mean I, I agree with you and I think like I get like straw manned in this sometimes by the like Iglesiases of the world. And I think to me it's the left wing populism in the way we're talking about economic stuff is not the end all be all. It's just a starting place for viability and everything else should be flexible off of the specific place you're running and off of the electorate you have in the communities you're in. And you know, if you're starting from a place of billionaires are bad, billionaires are fucking over our political system, Big Pharma is driving up the cause of health care, Big Ag is fucking us in our have grocery costs, we need to take on corporations, we need to tax the rich, whatever. Like then I think, you know, that's kind of the starter kit that you should able be able to be flexible out of. Yeah, that should be the kind of unifying tent of the party. And then everything else is localized and you should meet voters where they are and not talk about things that are losing issues and you know, treat it with grace and not sound like a coastal elite. You should sound like wherever the you're running from.

[Tim Miller]

Why don't any of those people exist though? I guess that's my issue. It's hard for me to think of an example. To me it's like every populist candidate in the fight, your group of avengers there with Osborne and Platner, Zoron, Zoran's running in New York. But you get on the list and they're all just down the line. Their positions on cultural issues are indistinguishable from the positions on cultural issues of any 55 year old MSNBC watching Ivy League graduate Boomer. There isn't a really good example of lefty populists who also are like, man, I also really support cops. I care a lot about the border. And you ran the ads with Osborne about the border. But when I interviewed him, he doesn't seem that passionate about it.

[Morris Katz]

Well, like, I mean, Graham Platner is a gun owner.

[Tim Miller]

Like, he's a gun owner though. Does he have any different policy views on guns though than Hillary?

[Morris Katz]

I think so. I'd have to do a deep dive on that. 2016. I'm with her platform, but I think so. And I think like, we'll, you know, there are a lot of examples that we'll see over the course of, you know, we're still early in the cycle. Okay. But I think there's also, in addition to, I think you're right that there does have to be some policy distinctions in some places. I also think there's an element of like, how much are you talking about what. And I see like, you know, I think like, even with the mayor, I think people took the wrong lesson in some ways where now people are like, I'm adding on affordability as the after the fourth comma in my catchphrase. And it's like, no, the whole thing is that he was saying this is my thing. And then that creates a permission structure to be like, okay, I don't agree with him on this, but he's saying he's solely focused on this. And I think like when you're going around campaigning non stop and all these different things, if you have a clear rationale for running, like, the reason Kama to me was so vulnerable to the, you know, Trump's for you, she's for they them attack is because no one knew who the fuck she was for. And if she actually had a credible thing that she was for, I think it bounces off of you differently then, yeah, sure, that seems that's the best articulation I've heard of who she's for.

[Tim Miller]

I couldn't be more with you on like a lot of the established Democrats now like just use the word affordability as an amulet. And sometimes they even read the show notes. They're just like, you know, we're talking about affordability a lot now. I'm here to talk about affordability. The thing that Zoran did that was so good was like he talked about it in like real human terms. Like, you know, there's the cab driver I was talking to, you know, I mean, he was Good at humanizing that. Sometimes, though, he would. He would talk about, you know, the beauty of collectivism. Was that you. Did you do that one?

[Morris Katz]

It was a team effort on the speech. That was. I don't think that was. I don't think that has been misinterpreted from what it was intended to mean.

[Tim Miller]

The beauty of collectivism or what was it? That wasn't exactly the warmth of collectivism.

[Morris Katz]

The warmth.

[Tim Miller]

You added the warmth.

[Morris Katz]

It's our version of top bottom politics.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, the warmth of collectivism. I guess it was a little bit better than Romney's. You didn't build that, but I don't know. It's not that great for me, I guess. I hear you, man. Look, look, focusing on affordability and making it central is true. I guess my point is the easy thing to do is demonstrate that you're separate from the corporate Democratic establishment that wants to do capital gains tax cuts. Nobody's for that. The only people that are making that case are D.C. lobbyists. So it's simple to say, okay, I'm against the Democratic establishment that, you know, cares too much about corporate interests. It's harder to be like, I'm against the Democratic establishment that, you know, cared, you know, that has. Whatever. Like, you just name the issue, you know, on any of these hot button issues that people in red America are not happy about, whether it would. Whether it's cops or immigration or LGBT or whatever, you know, that's. That's harder because you get shit when you separate from the Democratic establishment on that.

[Morris Katz]

I feel like there's a middle ground here for some races where it's not saying like, you know, where the, you know, example of just being like, Yeah, I think 8 year olds should be able to play in whatever league they want. I trust communities to make their own decisions about that. I also think it's pathetic that we have a lot of politicians in Washington, D.C. who spend more on both sides of the aisle, who spend more time talking about this issue than they do talking about how to bring down the cost of groceries. Like that, to me, is a good, easy middle ground.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe that'll work. Maybe that'll work, sure. But does that work if you're sitting down for two? This was like, I think part of these people, like, Kamala should have gone on Rogan. And I was like, kamala couldn't have gone on Rogan because Rogan would have spent 40 minutes with her on Trans. Is that fair? Like, no, I don't think that's fair. But like, I think what you just laid out is definitely workable in a D 8 house race this year or R 8 house race this year. Right. Because like Trump is unpopular, the economy sucks and Democrats are gonna be able to get away with with running campaigns that are just focused on affordability and Trump sucking in a lot of places because people are mad. So great. But longer term, how do Democrats win in Iowa and Ohio and Montana again? I think you have to be able to have answers for some of these cultural questions that aren't just I don't want to talk about that. I'd rather talk about grocery bills.

[Morris Katz]

I don't disagree with that with those places long term. Again, I think the way we've talked about a big tent party and there has been room for some of that that, you know, maybe not as much grace online, but there's been room for some of that. But it's like we have a big tent party united by you can say whatever the you want on any issue as long as APAC likes you and as long as like the handful of the biggest donors to the most powerful ies like you. Yeah. And I'm just like, I think we just flip that. And so it's as long as you are willing to take on the billionaire class and corporations, you should find the message that you know your community. You should find the message that works for your community.

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[Tim Miller]

We're already going long and I have some really fun rapid fire questions so we just got to do Graham really quick. Are you nervous that it's risky? Here's my issue with Graham, right? It's like a 79 year old lady is risky too, you know, and like if Graham was running in that Iowa Senate race or Kansas, he would be the darling of this podcast. Because I'd be like, finally, the Democrats are Trying something different in one of these red states. Like, this is a very important race, and it didn't seem like you guys really knew all of the baggage that he had on various things. I'm just wondering whether you're worried that your model candidate here for a populist left might really harm us if Susan Collins is able to take advantage of that in the fall.

[Morris Katz]

To me, there's not a bigger risk than Janet Mills, where it is just like we're talking about someone who would be the oldest freshman senator in the history of the United States Senate. We're talking to someone who has the worst components of Sarah Gideon and Joe Biden combined. Strip everything else we talk about. What kind of campaign would you want to run against Susan Collins? You want to run a campaign that she's fucking been there forever. She's a political creature. Life has gotten worse while she's been in power. It's time for new leadership. It's time for someone who's going to take on the entrenched political powers that be. And in Janet Mills, you have someone who inherently cannot make any of those arguments. And to me, the Graham, I think it's a little like, don't take my word for it. Look at what's happening in Maine. And I think, like, he's up 30 plus points on the incumbent governor. Like, that's. The voters are telling us who they like. If Janet Mills is so electable, why does no one fucking want to vote for her? Like, that's still, like, a ridiculous component of everyone's like, well, Janet Mills, the safe bet. It's like, no one's voting for Janet Mills. People who should be her base of supporters are uninterested. And meanwhile, Graham's in, like, towns that Trump live with a thousand people, that Trump won by 80 points, having hundreds of people come out. And I think there's, you know, voters are resonating with him in a way that is, I think, incredibly, incredibly rare and unique. And I think he has the ability, because of his politics and because of his life story, to just go directly at Susan Collins in a way, that's kind of the ideal matchup.

[Tim Miller]

I made pretty much that same pitch yesterday, besides ideal matchup. So I agree with you. But just in the spirit of let's explore this together, I want to offer a tweet that I saw about Graham just to hear what you guys would say about that.

[Morris Katz]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

They wrote this. Graham accidentally got a Nazi tattoo, accidentally took friendly photos with a guy in a Nazi shirt, accidentally reposted stu Peters, who's a right wing white nationalist basically and accidentally sat for an interview with a guy who spreaded anti Semitic conspiracy theories. He's a longtime fan of. That's a little concerning. What was your reaction to that?

[Morris Katz]

Be. I think Gavin Newsom did interviews with Steve Bannon and Charlie Kirk. I don't think, for whatever my criticisms are of Gavin Newsom, I don't think Gavin Newsom's a secret far right operative. You know, I think there's on the kind of interview outreach component, I think we're talking about, you know, a combination of people. You know, he does dozens of interviews a week. The goal is to reach every single person as much as possible. And that's not to say that maybe there should be more selective processes of who interviews what. But I think it's also like a lot of the same people who are like, Kamala should have gone on Rogan. Also can't believe Graham Platner sat down with this. It's like, pick, pick a lane. I'm fine with whatever your lane is, but have some consistency on do we have an obligation to go everywhere and talk to everyone and reach people leaving the party in mass or do we not? And then I think on the tattoo, you know, Graham's talked about ad nauseam and it's like I think the, to me, the most kind of. The two most compelling things that I think I can share on this that are not. Have not been, you know, talked about, you know, ad nauseam on social media are one, shooting the launch video. I'm Jewish. I have a Star David tattoo right here. Like, I saw Graham Platner change shirts eight times during the launch video, like feet away from him. Both good looking guy and also I don't think he'd be. I think so. I also don't think doing that if too, too strong and beautiful. I don't think he would have been doing that in front of his Jewish senior advisor if he was aware it was a Nazi tattoo. You also talk to anyone in the military and they're like, everyone's got different skull and crossbones tattoos. It's like all the science and military stuff. And I've had that conversation with dozens and dozens of vets at this point. And I think, you know, so it's like he's running a campaign that's not a DSCC campaign where he's not like locked in a windowless basement doing call time. He's doing gazillion interviews. He's meeting voters every single day. And so when he's doing 10,000 things a day. Cherry picking a few select things through a specific lens is like, you know, you can do that with, with any campaign anytime.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. Here's. So that was. I was representing other people's concerns about Graham. I'm going to represent mine now. You know him, actually. So this is. Comes from a genuine place. I'm just a little concerned that he's. That it's fake. You know, he's not actually really like a working class guy. I mean, kind of. But like, he's downward. I forget who called him downwardly mobile old money, which I thought was kind of funny. But like, he comes from money. Like, really. He volunteered to go to war. He wasn't. Like, sometimes he talks about like, he was drafted, but, like, he chose to. He's. He's talked about like that. He kind of talks about both ways. He's like, Oyster Farm is. Isn't that his mom's restaurant? He went to gw, I went to gw, you know, not the. Not a bastion of working class folks. And he did it on the GI Bill. So, like, he came out of nowhere. I think for people that, like, just don't know him and like, you see some of this stuff, you wonder, like, is this a pose, right? Like, is this not authentic? What would you say to that?

[Morris Katz]

Like, I've spent a lot of time at Graham's house. I spent a lot of time with Graham's family. I think he's incredibly and like, unwaveringly authentic, some of those things. True. He's also someone who, like, has, like, really struggled financially at times in his life. He's someone who did spend, you know, a decade overseas. He's someone who, you know, before he decided to run for Senate, was like, trying to figure out how to. To start a family and live a life in the community. He loved making $60,000 a year running an oyster farm. Like, I think it's, you know, like, fully honest in what he says. I mean, it's, you know, we're not like telling a glass castle story here or something, but in the story of like, growing up in a rural community, having nights where you're anxious about financial realities and having spent a lot of time in incredibly tough positions in service to country are all like, incredibly real and authentic. And I think, you know, he lives four houses down from the. Where he grew up in Sullivan, Maine. Like, there's just a deep, deep kind of authentic mainness to him. We've spent a lot of time together and he's Always the exact same Graham Platner, like the Graham in a video. Answering a question at a town hall to a Republican is the same gram you're getting at, like, you know, midnight over a beer, shooting the shit.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, I don't. I didn't really like his China answer on one of the podcasts. We'll talk about that another day. We can, we, we can work through that. We can grow.

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[Tim Miller]

to the rapid fire questions. Speaking of podcasts, people are not supposed to do. The rumor on the street was that you told the staff that Zoran should not do my podcast because I was too risky and that they didn't listen to you. Is that accurate? Is that accurate?

[Morris Katz]

I thought it was bad timing for doing your podcast as a big Tim, you know, week one, you were gonna get buried in all of the other stuff. I wanted, like Tim Miller to be the kind of central piece of a component of the show.

[Tim Miller]

It kind of turned out like that a little bit. Should I feel bad? I kind of feel like I made Zoran cry. Not on the podcast, but the fallout from the globalized intifada question led to a press conference where he kind of cried. And so I would say no guilt,

[Morris Katz]

and it should be 100% on the Islamophobia of Andrew Cuomo and his campaigns.

[Tim Miller]

Got it. Okay. So we don't need to hug it out?

[Morris Katz]

No, I mean, you're welcome to hug

[Tim Miller]

it out, but okay, I like to hug. We mentioned Fetterman earlier. I wasn't going to give you too much a problem for this, but you did work for John Fetterman 2022 as here at the Bulwark, the base of the Conor Lamb campaign. We were pretty devastated that he lost that primary. And given what's happened, it was close.

[Morris Katz]

It was so close.

[Tim Miller]

Given what has happened since then, it was a little closer than the North Carolina House primary you were talking about earlier. But given what's happened since, I was wondering if you just want to take this Opportunity to speak to the Bulwark audience and to Connor himself, because he's probably a listener and just offer your apology. Do you want to sign the Conor Lamb apology form?

[Morris Katz]

Not signing. Not signing. I think for whatever the judgments may be about Fetterman, write about Conor Lamb. All this now. Conor Lamb's economic populace quote, tweeting, aoc. Shit. I'm not buying it. I am not buying it. I think there are a lot of incredible politicians across Pennsylvania, and Conor Lamb's not one of them.

[Tim Miller]

Come on. I think you're being stubborn. Don't be a stubborn mule, Morris. Don't be a stubborn mule. We would be in better shape right now if Conor Lamb was in the Senate, would we not? Would we not?

[Morris Katz]

Look, everyone's like, oh, Connor. You guys sold this tale of Connor Lamb, this generational talent. Meanwhile, under Cristaluzio, it's not even a swing seat anymore. It's, like, off the map.

[Tim Miller]

Chris Deluzio's great. I can compliment Chris Daluzio. Okay. Why can't you just say it's true? Conor Lamb would be a good senator. John Fetterman is a shit Hochul.

[Morris Katz]

We both love Kathy Hochul.

[Tim Miller]

Wow. Okay, boy. I wasn't going to ask this next question. I wasn't going to ask this next question, but now I have to. Famously, your grandfather said he slept with 4,000 women. Now that you're a minor celebrity, are you going to try to pass them?

[Morris Katz]

My grandfather slept with 4,000 women? Yeah. Are you going to try to compete with 4,000 women?

[Tim Miller]

I know, but now you're trying to. Do you see that as an aspirational thing at all?

[Morris Katz]

You know, between all the podcast interviews, there hasn't been. There hasn't been the time, but let's see how the Senate map goes.

[Tim Miller]

Not a hard no on that.

[Morris Katz]

No a hard no. I'm a settle down man.

[Tim Miller]

You're a settled down man. That's cute. All right, well, maybe we can find somebody for you on this podcast. You know, nice girls, 25 and a

[Morris Katz]

half, 26 and 3 quarters tempo.

[Tim Miller]

How can we be such buddies here? I guess you don't think that Conor Lamb, for whatever reason's transformation, is authentic. In an effort to show you why mine is, I wanted to close with a story that made me the most Morris built of any story I've read recently. Just see this. The richest Americans saw their NET Worth soar 120% from 2017 to 2025. And the top 1% of the country now control 55 trillion in assets. More than US and China combined. I feel like we can just all hold hands and just say, let's take more money, like painful taxation for the top 0.1% of the country. And we can all unite with that together. Right. For everybody from Zoran to, I don't know, John Bel Edwards. The broadest possible.

[Morris Katz]

I love John Bel Edwards. That's a good. Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's hard to talk about without immediately sounding like Bernie, but he's right about it where it's like, this isn't radical, like, the idea that the wealth that we're seeing consolidate at such a rapid pace. Maybe we should just, like, take a little bit of that to help everyone else. Feels like the most sane, reasonable, we should all agree on this thing. And even like so many of the kind of democratic contenders for 2028 or stuff, you hear them talk about taxation of the wealthy now, and it's like always a little. They're queasy around it. Run the tape on, like, Obama 2012 or, you know, it's like Obama was campaigning off of the wealthiest paying a little bit more and even talking about the wealthiest in a far broader way than Bernie or the mayor or whoever talking about it now. And I don't. I do know why, but it's deeply, deeply concerning that while that's happening, you're also seeing both parties kind of back away from taxing the rich in certain ways. But that's the. The Tim Miller Morris Cats coalition is going to bring about.

[Tim Miller]

Here's our Kumbaya moment. We are gonna cut environmental red tape to build more houses, and we're gonna tax the fuck out of the rich. And all the rest we'll deal with later. Does that sound good?

[Morris Katz]

Hell, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

All right, baby. That's Morris Katz. I appreciate you coming on the show. I'm a little butt hurt, honestly, that you snubbed me for Trump, but we're gonna get over it. Do you have anybody's phone number now? Are you Caroline, like, texting buddies now? You've been there twice or.

[Morris Katz]

No, we have not. We've not gotten it to maybe DMs.

[Tim Miller]

I appreciate you. We'll do it again in a couple months, maybe after. After the main primary. We'll see how it goes to celebrate

[Morris Katz]

the Grand Platinum win. Yeah, we'll do it before we. What's, what's your main Senate primary prediction? Down to the number. Down to the margin in the primary.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I think that he's going to beat her like, 70, 30. I think he's really going to crush it.

[Morris Katz]

Love it, love it.

[Tim Miller]

That said, three more months, so hopefully nothing. We'll see what we'll see. Big caveat, assuming current information on Graham. So we'll see. Anyway, that's Mars Cats, buddy. We'll see y' all soon. Everybody else will be back tomorrow with somebody who's a little bit more of a capitalist, probably. We'll see y' all then. Peace.

[Morris Katz]

Thanks, Graham.

[Tim Miller]

Jordan wanted to sign with Adidas or she, but Nike gave him an offer that he could not refuse. It wasn't a pizza. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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