Neera Tanden: Aiding and Abetting Trump

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Neera Tanden—Aiding and Abetting Trump

Release Date: July 23, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Neera Tanden, President and CEO of the Center for American Progress, Former Domestic Policy Council Director under Joe Biden

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes back Neera Tanden, a prominent figure in Democratic politics and a key voice in the Never Trump movement. Their discussion delves into the latest political controversies, focusing primarily on the Jeffrey Epstein case and its broader implications for American politics.

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2. The Jeffrey Epstein Scandal and Its Political Ramifications

Neera Tanden opens the conversation by expressing a sense of unexpected joy over recent developments related to the Epstein case. She attributes this uplifted mood to the perception that significant political figures, including Donald Trump, may be incriminating themselves through their actions.

Neera Tanden [00:28]: "You know, I feel like I'm experiencing the greatest amount of joy I've had in the first six months. So I'm just happy to experience the joy."

Tanden criticizes the Republican Party's handling of the Epstein files, suggesting that the abrupt closure of House proceedings signals a broader attempt to obfuscate potential connections between Trump and Epstein.

Neera Tanden [08:16]: "The fact is, Democrats are carrying this has made the Republicans go into kind of free fall."

She emphasizes the importance of transparency, arguing that the Republican strategy to prevent the release of these files is primarily motivated by a desire to shield Trump from further scrutiny.

Neera Tanden [10:32]: "It's pretty clear they're just covering up something, that they're covering up Donald Trump in the files."

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3. Critique of Republican Immigration Policies and Marco Rubio

The discussion shifts to immigration, where Tanden criticizes Marco Rubio's role as Secretary of State, particularly his involvement in the controversial prisoner exchange between the U.S. and Venezuela. She argues that Rubio's actions undermine Republican foreign policy foundations that traditionally oppose communist regimes.

Neera Tanden [07:05]: "The fundamental problem we have is Republicans are willing to squeeze out more seats and Democrats are Democratic. You know, blue states have kind of traditionally done these commissions."

Tanden contends that the Republican approach to immigration, especially the treatment of Venezuelan immigrants, contradicts long-standing Republican principles against communism and Marxism.

Neera Tanden [05:54]: "So, like, that's what I think. I mean, I love Marco Rubio because, like, why he thinks it's okay. I mean, would he be okay if we sent Cubans back to Cuba? No, that would be terrible because they're opponents of the regime."

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4. Redistricting, Gerrymandering, and Democratic Strategy

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on redistricting efforts, particularly in Texas. Tanden criticizes the proposed redistricting map, which she describes as absurd and detrimental to Democratic representation.

Neera Tanden [27:03]: "The map is absurd. And of course, and just to say if they hadn't done those three seats, we could be like Speaker Jeffries one seat, one seat away from that or like right there any moment."

She advocates for a proactive Democratic response, suggesting that blue states should consider redistricting initiatives akin to those seen in Republican-controlled states to counteract gerrymandering efforts.

Neera Tanden [29:18]: "There's an imbalance where Republicans can put power above process or due process or norms or the right thing to do or morality and just gain power."

Tanden also highlights the need for national legislation to prevent gerrymandering, arguing that without it, partisan bias in redistricting will continue to undermine democratic principles.

Neera Tanden [30:50]: "We live in a world that some of us argued like in a decade ago that maybe blue states shouldn't go through these commission processes because Republican states could do things like this. And I remember really, you know, like good people, good, good government people saying, no, no, no, we have to role model. But this is exactly why you need national legislation that prohibits gerrymandering."

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5. Democratic Recruitment and Policy Platform

Tanden discusses the challenges Democrats face in recruiting candidates for key states like Texas and Iowa. She emphasizes the importance of developing policies that resonate across diverse electorates to expand the party's appeal.

Neera Tanden [32:30]: "We have to do really a fundamental rethink of how we have policies and ideas that can appeal to people in a place like Iowa as well as a place like Illinois or California."

She suggests that comprehensive immigration reform could serve as a unifying platform, capable of garnering broad support and counteracting Republican policies perceived as anti-immigrant.

Neera Tanden [35:50]: "We know Center for American Progress put forward an immigration plan that secures the border. It ends the abuse of the asylum system. ... We do believe there was misuse and abuse of the asylum system over the last four years."

Tanden also underscores the necessity for Democrats to present bold ideas on various issues, such as housing and public safety, to energize the base and attract moderate voters.

Neera Tanden [39:56]: "We also have to have ideas that excite our base and other things. We're not fighting with the base every day, but we're trying to create ideas that can unite people to get to a better higher ground and not create those conflicts."

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6. Overcoming Fear and Intimidation in Democratic Engagement

Addressing concerns about donor and institutional hesitancy, Tanden acknowledges the pervasive fear among Democrats due to Trump's aggressive tactics and the potential for retribution. She emphasizes the importance of standing firm against intimidation to preserve democratic integrity.

Neera Tanden [47:59]: "There are actually a whole range of people who I think are just basically intimidated into not engaging in the fight. And I find that very frustrating as a person who's engaged in the fight every day."

Tanden encourages continuous engagement and resilience, noting that Trump's unpopularity provides an opportunity for Democrats to galvanize support and effect change.

Neera Tanden [47:33]: "He is the most unpopular president at this time. His actions on things that are strengths like immigration are unpopular with the country. The majority is against him."

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7. Reflection on Political Figures and Personal Anecdotes

Towards the end of the episode, Tanden reflects on political personalities like J.D. Vance, contrasting them with her own approach to governance and public service. She highlights the differences in motivations and the importance of prioritizing public good over political posturing.

Neera Tanden [50:34]: "I was really in, I was really behaving and you know, I liked, you know, I think a big difference between J.D. Vance and I, I think we're probably both pretty good at shitposting but like I actually looked at government service as an opportunity to help people and I just not tracking that as his top priority really at the moment."

These personal insights offer listeners a glimpse into Tanden's values and her perspective on effective political leadership.

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8. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with expressions of mutual respect and anticipation for future discussions. Neera Tanden reaffirms her commitment to fighting for democratic values and transparency, encouraging continued vigilance against political corruption and authoritarian tendencies.

Neera Tanden [54:13]: "Always fun, my friend."

As the conversation concludes, the focus remains on the pressing political issues discussed, leaving listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Tanden's perspectives on the Epstein scandal, Republican strategies, and Democratic responses.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• Neera Tanden [00:28]: Expresses unexpected joy over recent political developments.

• Neera Tanden [08:16]: Highlights Republican disarray in handling the Epstein case.

• Neera Tanden [27:03]: Criticizes Texas's redistricting map as absurd.

• Neera Tanden [32:30]: Advocates for broad-appeal policies to strengthen Democratic influence.

• Neera Tanden [47:59]: Discusses the impact of intimidation on Democratic engagement.

• Neera Tanden [50:34]: Contrasts her approach to public service with that of J.D. Vance.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Neera Tanden's discussion on The Bulwark Podcast, offering insights into her views on ongoing political scandals, party strategies, and the importance of resilient democratic engagement.

Transcript

[Neera Tanden]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back one of my favorite posters. President and CEO of Center for American Progress, formerly Domestic Policy Council Director under Joe Biden.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's Neera Tanden.

[Tim Miller]

What's going on, Neera?

[Neera Tanden]

You know, I feel like I'm experiencing the greatest amount of joy I've had in the first six months. So I'm just happy to experience the joy.

[Tim Miller]

Is it the Molly or what is it?

[Neera Tanden]

What's working for you? I feel like going two weeks on Epstein has just put a spring in my step.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, with some endorphins. Okay. But you're not concerned at all about the imminent arrest of Barack Obama when you did work for him?

[Neera Tanden]

I'm not really worried about the imminent arrest. I mean, I do think it's. Unfortunately, we live in a kind of crazy la la land that we could actually talk about something so insane. But my general take is that I have never seen a politician or political leader in my lifetime act as guilty as Donald Trump has acted in the last two weeks. So, I mean, I feel like it's like he's indicting himself.

[Tim Miller]

So you're saying you don't think Barack.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Obama is quaking in his boots right.

[Tim Miller]

Now, sitting around his home, wherever he is?

[Neera Tanden]

No, I don't think he is quaking in his boots, in particular, because Donald Trump's Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is the one who said. Who backed up everything Barack Obama said about Russian interference with the elections. And when he talked about Russian interference in elections, he was talking about what has been well established, that they, you know, used disinformation and just want to say one of the victims of that disinformation right here during the 2016 election. So I was following the news pretty, like, closely on this.

[Tim Miller]

I'm sorry, Neera, I think you're part.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of the hoax there.

[Tim Miller]

I think that when you put out your own emails and you dealt with all of the slander and all of the terrible news coverage in the New.

[Unnamed Speaker]

York Times, it was all part of an elaborate hoax working in concert with Barack Obama. To pretend like the Russians.

[Neera Tanden]

Yes. To pretend like the Russians were hurting Hillary Clinton. To elect Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

To elect Donald Trump so that you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Could, I don't know, do something during.

[Tim Miller]

The transition to slow down his presidency. I like the whole thing is it doesn't even make sense if you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

If you say it.

[Tim Miller]

I do.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Marco hasn't really gotten pressed on this.

[Neera Tanden]

Like, yes, he hasn't gotten impressed since. I mean, you know what's really sort of tragic about Marco Rubio as a human being is I remember testifying in front of Foreign Relations. I think, yeah, it was foreign relations in the spring of 2016. So it was after he was out of the primary, but still like a normal Republican. And he was talking about the importance of NATO and how we needed strong alliances. And he threatened. You know, he's talking about the threat of Russia, and he is, like, literally eaten every actual view he's ever had in order to be Secretary of State. So I really welcome how he handles this, but, you know, you don't need to listen to me. I mean, there's plenty of video of him talking about Russia's interference with the elections.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, well, hopefully.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. Hopefully he gets pressed on that a little bit in the coming weeks. I do think we're gonna get to your. The cap immigration plan.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I want to kind of talk about the Project 2029 stuff in a second, but this.

[Tim Miller]

The thing about Marco to me this.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Week I just really can't get over is, thank God those men are out of Sakat, right? They do this trade with Venezuela, this hostage deal.

[Tim Miller]

And there's a story out today. I don't know if you've seen this. One of the people we traded for was the perpetrator of a triple murder in Madrid. He killed people with an axe, I guess. Dahud Hanid Ortiz. And it's Marco just gives this huge geopolitical win to Maduro, to the communist.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Dictator that he supports, proposes to hate.

[Tim Miller]

And now Maduro gets to go around.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Saying, I saved these men from the capitalist white devil.

[Tim Miller]

And be accurate about it, kind of. And. And. And we sent the people that were fleeing communism to, like, a concentration camp. And it's all Marco. I do. I feel like he almost gets kind of a pass on this because people focus on, you know, Trump and the Stephen Miller. But it was Marco is the secretary Marco that orchestrated this whole thing where we send the people to El Salvador. They were fleeing communism just like his parents did. And then now he gives this huge win to Maduro. It's wild.

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, even. I mean, that is a horrible story. But, you know, let's just step back. These people were fleeing Venezuela, and now they are being. And why were they fleeing Venezuela? Many of them were opponents of the Maduro regime. In a normal world, Republicans would have supported. Supported opponents of the regime, a Marxist regime. Right? So, like, that's what's also really crazy about this whole immigration slash human cruelty regime. Right? You have people in any other time who are fleeing a communist regime coming to the United States to make a better life for themselves. You know, we did take a lot of Venezuelans, totally accept that. But they were people who are basically, most of these people were political opponents of a Marxist administration. We send them to an El Salvadoran gulag. Our courts say that's reprehensible. So instead of pulling these people back into the United States because they think this would be some kind of political loser. Right. To acknowledge that their plan was wrong, they have sent the opponents of the regime back to Venezuela. Right. So I mean, if you actually think about it, it gives a lie to 50, 60 years of Republican foreign policy about how we have to be a beacon against communism and Marxism. And it's just like it's just another core Republican tenant set aside for maga white nationalism that doesn't want brown people here. So, I mean, that's what I think. I mean, I love Marco Rubio to ask like why he thinks it's okay. I mean, would he be okay if we sent Cubans back to Cuba? No, that would be terrible because they're opponents of the regime. I mean, who knows now? But, you know, usually like you want to ensure that people who leave dictatorships and who are actually fleeing to democratic capitalist countries, you know, that has helped us geopolitically in the past.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. I mean, Marco kind of positions his own story as having fled communism, even though technically I think his parents fled like the pre communist fascists in Cuba. But either way, just a total gift to Maduro in exchange, apparently for an axe murderer.

[Tim Miller]

Before we get into the more challenging.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Questions, let's just kind of roll around.

[Tim Miller]

In the Epstein, suffer a little bit and just in this fucking bed that they've made for them.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah. Live by the sword, die by the sword, my friend. It is like it is the most karma experience. It's so, really is.

[Tim Miller]

So the house is shutting down till September, I guess. Ann Coulter, famous lib tweeted.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This totally conveys innocence with a screenshot of the Mike Johnson plan to shut down the House.

[Tim Miller]

I guess on the one hand just.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Kind of riff on what it says, that they've completely, I guess, given up on governing because they are covering up this Epstein situation.

[Tim Miller]

But also, I mean, I guess about.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The Democratic strategy and how that's. It feels like they finally found their sea legs a little bit on using the limited power they have to pressure these guys.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah. I mean, let's just be clear. What's happening here is because there is A bipartisan but heavily Democratic discharge petition that's, you know, also pressuring the Rules Committee because, you know, Democrats and some Republicans, but mostly Democrats are talking about the Epstein case. And let's just be reminded what the Epstein case is about. The Epstein case is about Jeffrey Epstein, who is a known sex trafficker. And because essentially people are asking for the files to be released, Republicans do not want to take a vote on the release of the files. And because, I mean, let's just also say, let's say you're a Republican. Like, why are they trying to avoid this vote so much? Right? Like, let's just game this out. Let's say you're a Republican House member and you vote no on releasing the files. Right. Like, we could get a vote where a handful, most likely outcome here and a discharge petition is a handful of Republicans join Democrats in getting a discharge petition and getting a push for release of the files. And somehow the files come out after this discharge petition and then you have voted no, which is what most of the Republican Party will do because Donald Trump will demand that. And then terrible things come out about Donald Trump. So you have now just opposed that. So I think this is a protection of his own members. And I think they're hoping that people will just forget this in the next five weeks, which is odd since they haven't forgotten it in six years since the man died. But of course, who knows? I think at this point, you know, when people are in power in a moment like this, you're in a scandal, people are living day to day. I think Mike Johnson is just like, I need to get out of town. So to me, this whole effort is just confirmation about the fear of what's in these files because no one would get the headlines of closing down the House. Which, of course, I cannot remember this ever happening. I've lived through some scandals, by the way. Of course, I worked for Bill Clinton in the last couple of years there. Lived through some scandals myself. We never, I've never seen the House just shut down business, the Senate just shut down business, either House shut down business in order to avoid votes on a scandal. So, I mean, I just think this confirmation to not just tin hat, foil wearing people, but to just normal people that the entire Republican Party is in cahoots to close these files down.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And when this all started, I think.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Hakeem Jeffries point was well taken, which was kind of like they're either covering up something about Trump in these documents or they're embarrassed because they're lying the whole Time about there being whatever Epstein files at all. It's not even really an either or for me anymore. It's pretty clear they're just, they're covering up something that for trying.

[Tim Miller]

You know, you have this Durbin letter.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To Cash Patel that's like supposedly according, and I assume you got this information from people inside the Justice Department. They had FBI officials reviewing these documents and flagging mentions of Trump.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So to me, that signals that they have at least some mentions of Donald Trump in the files.

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, not only that, but this is again, yesterday they announced, just a reminder, it's the President's personal attorney is the deputy Attorney general. Also weird just to say out loud, isn't it stupid. But it's also like, let's just think about that. Isn't that suspicious at this point that he put his personal lawyer as personal criminal attorney too? His personal criminal attorney?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Not like his campaign attorney or whatever, like his criminal.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, it's like, you know, I mean, for those of us who want to go into the way back machine of the Clinton era, it's like putting David Kendall, Bill Clinton's personal attorney, like as deputy to Janet Reno. People would have found that really weird. So, okay, I mean, Trump makes everything weird. So like it just normalizes. But just now in the context of all of this, I think it looks really weird. But. So his personal criminal attorney, who is a deputy aggressive, announces yesterday that he's going to interview Maxwell. Explain Maxwell. Right. So just a reminder, they put out a memo two weeks ago saying there's no there there to this. There's no client list, there's nothing to this scandal. And it's clear that they never even talked to Ghislaine Maxwell in order to determine the backing of that memo. So, like, this is what the problem is in a scandal is it's impossible to think 10 steps ahead. And I think, you know, you are absolutely right. At the beginning of the scandal, it was like, well, I mean, Pam Bondi was telling the truth. She's telling the truth now, or she's telling the truth in February, but she couldn't be telling the truth both times. Now during all of that, I was like, of course, why is Pam Bondi going through any of this unless someone is ordering her to? But now I think it feels pretty certain because of course, you could just throw Pam Bondi under the bus with this level of scandal. Right? You could, you don't, you don't have to fire her. You could just say she was an idiot, she screwed this whole thing up. She can apologize, but they're not doing that. He's defending Pam Bondi. It's not like he's known for loyalty. He's defending Pam Bondi because she's doing what he wants. Yes, because basically, what's the most obvious answer here? They're all covering up Donald Trump in the files. That just seems like so. And you would not have the House just adjourn. Now, these Republicans have to answer the question. If it was really just an issue of Pam Bondi looking like a jerk, like, nobody would do that. Hence the spring in my step. I mean, I shouldn't. I'm not like. I mean, I'm not trying to be a total jerk, but it's been a rough six months. We need to take.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You got to take your wins where you can get them.

[Neera Tanden]

You got to just take the joys where you have them.

[Tim Miller]

You know, I wish I could grow a beard. I did not shave throughout the entirety of my European vacation. Came home, was thinking, okay, maybe I can try out a new look. Maybe I can do the Pete Buttigieg, you know, come back with a beard for everybody. But, yeah, I just, I don't know.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The good Lord doesn't want me to have a beard.

[Tim Miller]

I still couldn't do it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I have huge, huge gaps all over my face where no hair emerges.

[Tim Miller]

And as such, I need a reliable.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Grooming tool to make sure I'm looking fresh for y'.

[Tim Miller]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

The Democrats take back the House, we'll get to the politics this in a little bit. Like, what are the tools, I guess, available for them both right now, whether in the minority and then prospectively next year, if they were to take the.

[Tim Miller]

Majority back as far as Epstein is concerned?

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, right now, I mean, I think the most important thing, most important tool they have is the fact that there is such bipartisan outrage about this stance and the lack of transparency that Republicans are feeling more pressure on this. I mean, it is a little ironic that they feel more pressure. And Jeffrey Epstein, thank you. Like, cutting health care for millions of people. That is like kind of a weird thing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Letting the poorest children in the world die, having mass agents grab people off the street and send them to foreign gulags. Yeah, sure.

[Tim Miller]

There are other things that you would.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Think they'd feel pressure on, but okay, yeah, yeah.

[Neera Tanden]

No, I mean, like, I do think that's a, like, unfortunate thing about their side, but whatever. So, you know, that is obviously creating a lot of pressures, pressure when you have Josh Hawley, Tim Burchett, others saying, you know, just get all the material out there, even though they all know Donald Trump does not want to get all the material out there. So I think their number one tool which they are using is the discharge petition. It is to they are using and just want to say in the Rules Committee there are not limits on amendments. So the threat of the amendments in the Rules Committee is really what's getting everyone scared to avoid a rule. So rules are necessary for, you know, bills that are not overwhelmingly supported. So any kind of any bill that has like, you would get 55 or 60% of Congress to vote for. So that's what's making them close down. Essentially, they don't want to face a vote in the Rules Committee. So I think the Democrats have been very strong. And, you know, I will say, you know, it does feel like they are bringing a gun to a gunfight. You know, they are saying out loud, release the files if Donald Trump has nothing to hide. You know, I know that it sounds, you know, it's like a little weird for members, maybe they feel uncomfortable saying, like, the strongest accusation here. But we have to make clear what we are fighting for, and that is transparency about a case in which a man victimized lots and lots of girls and women. And it is a case where, you know, it was a bunch of powerful men who seem to be victimizing people. Jeffrey Epstein got a sweetheart deal on his first interactions with law enforcement, in part, I think, really because he was so powerful and had a lot of friends. And just as a reminder, the prosecutor who gave him that sweetheart deal was in Donald Trump's cabinet as his first labor secretary. So in his first term, he had to resign because of all the interactions with Epstein. So, I mean, I just think, like, this is an area where you just have to prosecute the case aggressively and it is having an impact. I mean, the fact that Democrats are carrying this has made the Republicans go into kind of free fall. But I will also say an important thing is if they take power next year, they should commit to issuing subpoenas to release the files.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, there should be a Benghazi style committee.

[Neera Tanden]

Absolutely, absolutely. A giant public committee airing everything that happened with these files. And also, let's also, they will also should be going through the actions around this cover up over the last, or, you know, seeming cover up over the last, you know, basically couple of weeks.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Subpoena the people that were reviewing these.

[Neera Tanden]

Documents, like, if that's true, subpoena Pambandi to come forward. You know, I mean, look, they could. Republicans could have Pam Bondi testify this week. They are not doing that. Why? Because they're scared what she will say.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, I have one loyal listener who'll.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Be upset at me if I don't ask you this legit question, which is, if Trump is in these files as much as it seems like he is, why didn't the Biden administration do anything about this?

[Tim Miller]

An administration you were in. What do you think about that?

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, so this is what I'd say to this. I mean, I get this all the time. So I, I didn't think you were.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Not gonna be expecting the question. But it is a question that merits. No, no.

[Neera Tanden]

It's like, literally, it's like anytime I say anything on Epstein, they're like, why didn't Joe Biden. Why didn't Joe Biden release the false. And this is why I'd say, have you met Merrick Garland?

[Unnamed Speaker]

We're blaming Merrick Garland.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, great.

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, I'm just saying, first of all, I mean, like, legitimately, the Joe Biden White House had nothing to do with enforcement on any topic. If anything, because of the abuses of the Trump administration, the White House didn't engage in any particular enforcement matter. We barely did engage in policy with the Department of Justice. They were so arms like this. So, I mean, I can attest to that from my experience as DPC Domestic Policy Chair, we in the White House had no idea. So I can't really tell you why Merrick Garland didn't do it. I would say that he was hypersensitive about any perceptions of unfairness to a point where I think. I'm not sure justice was always even done. And I can imagine he thought after he's doing January 6th and all the conservative blowback on that, maybe he wouldn't even look into Ghislaine Maxwell. But someone should ask him, because Maxwell and Epstein, he could have been nice.

[Tim Miller]

And bipartisan, and now Bill Clinton and Donald Trump would have been okay with me.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, exactly. I wish they did. I mean, I wish he had looked into it. I mean, I kind of think this became like a. This was an issue of the far right that was really pushing it with some kind of crazy allegations, and it would have been better. I mean, like, let's just remember Donald Trump was president when Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. It's not like he committed suicide in the Clinton White House or something in the Clinton administration.

[Tim Miller]

So, you know, Bill Barr was Attorney General when he committed suicide, and Bill.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Barr's dad gave him his first job. Longtime friend of the Barr family.

[Tim Miller]

So take that for what you will. I don't, you know, there's some missing. There's some missing minutes in the camera.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That's all.

[Tim Miller]

I know.

[Neera Tanden]

I know. It's like. Also, what's weird is, you know, according to Wired, they're now three minutes missing. Like, does that feel weird? Does that feel like a glitch? 3 minutes missing in the camera? I don't know. It's like. I just think it's like.

[Tim Miller]

This takes me to my Pete Buttigieg question. Back to you, though, thinking about Merrick Garland, which was, if you had a. If you had a time machine, if.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You had a DeLorean, you could go.

[Tim Miller]

Back to the beginning of the Biden.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Administration and you could sit down. I mean, Joe doesn't drink, but you could sit down with the former president. You're in the Oval Office, and he's.

[Tim Miller]

Just like, neera, you have this wisdom.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Having come from the future, tell me.

[Tim Miller]

One thing I should do different. Is Merrick Garland the thing to do different or something else?

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, I think Merrick Garland. Yeah, I mean I would have. I mean Merrick Garland is a very nice man and has a lot of wisdom on a lot of topics. But I just think was not like living in the world that we are in today. You know, he just, I mean, I think it's a tragedy. He moved on the special prosecutor around January 6, so it took him so long to do that that it just became impossible to have real accountability. And I think that's, you know, we're kind of living with the results and that's a tragedy. And I think he thought and you know, I'd say, look, I think a real challenge is that in the Biden administration there was this whole theory of like we just need to rest institutions and order. And I think there was just a broad misunderstanding that politics has fundamentally changed. I don't think you should have a Department of justice that's weaponized like the current one. But I also think you have to think about time horizons on accountability and go a little bit faster than rather go so slow.

[Tim Miller]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

Us to the current day, whether we've learned any of those lessons. Let's talk a little bit about some democracy concerns.

[Tim Miller]

The redistricting stuff is out there.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Obviously, Texas talking about redistricting, they think that they can potentially get five more seats out of there. I mean, I looked at that map and it's a preposterous map that would go from like Houston to Amarillo or something.

[Tim Miller]

There'd be a district.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So I don't, I don't know if they're really going to be able to get five out of there.

[Tim Miller]

But, you know, there's some discussions about what the Democrats can do or can or should do. J.B. pritzker in Illinois said earlier this.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Week we ought to play by the rules, but counterbalance might be necessary.

[Tim Miller]

Is that the right way to think about it as counterbalance? Right way to think about it, or.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Should California and Illinois just start doing redistricting right now?

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, I think it's hard to redistrict a little bit more out of Illinois since I don't really think they have many Republicans. They have very few seats there.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But it's really, we can't squeeze two.

[Tim Miller]

More out of there. We can't squeeze two more.

[Neera Tanden]

Overall. Take here is that, you know, democracy is really on the line. Let's just be clear what's happening. Donald Trump has called up the governor of Texas and said, I want you to squeeze five more seats because he thinks if he does not if he has the playing field he has today, which is not even really level because North Carolina already did a post decennial redistrict and gained three seats, which again.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Kind of map is absurd.

[Neera Tanden]

That map is absurd. And of course, and just to say if they hadn't done those three seats, we could be like Speaker Jeffries one seat, one seat away from that or like right there any moment. So I think the lesson basically what.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Trump maybe had fewer Democrats died and.

[Tim Miller]

North Carolina not redistricted, maybe we'd have Speaker Jeffries.

[Neera Tanden]

I'm for both of those things.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Alive Democrats fair mats in North Korea.

[Neera Tanden]

Right. People not running who are that old. So I'd say if we just recognize what's going on, Trump thinks he's going to lose with the maps that we have. He's going to lose the House with the maps that he has. He's probably worried about accountability for Jeffrey Epstein and any other accountability. And so that's why he is asking to change the rules. And we had Beto o' Rourke at the center for American Progress, and he talked about this issue specifically. And, you know, I think there is an incredibly persuasive case to make that the actual way to stop this race to the bottom right. I mean, the fundamental problem we have is Republicans are willing to squeeze out more seats and Democrats are Democratic. You know, blue states have kind of traditionally done these commissions. So what does that create? It's an imbalance where Republicans can put power above process or due process or norms or the right thing to do or morality and just gain power. And I think, unfortunately, we live in a world right at the moment where you have to fight fire with fire. The only thing we can do to stop a Texas from going through an ugly redistricting is a threat of blue states doing the same. And if they go and proceed, blue states are going to have to do that. And it will be hard in California. But I mean, I think they should undertake the process of, you know, like, relooking at their constitution, their proposition on their commissions because that's, you know, California is going to be an important counter to what happens in Texas.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Are there other states besides California that could do that? I know there's some talk in Wisconsin, but they're getting stymied by the state Supreme Court or there are other places that could potentially.

[Neera Tanden]

New York had a map. They went through an interaction with their courts. Maryland has potential of map. They've had some challenges with their courts. I do think there'll be a question of how courts look at these redistricts even in blue states, if they are looking at Texas kind of redistricting in the middle to do it. So, you know, unfortunately, we live in a world that some of us argued like in a decade ago that maybe blue states shouldn't go through these commission processes because Republican states could do things like this. And I remember really, you know, like good people, good, good government people saying, no, no, no, we have to role model. But this is exactly why you need national legislation that prohibits gerrymandering, because otherwise you do get this asymmetry. Like blue states go through these independent commissions. Like, that's the problem in California, they have an independent commission. And red states just like, you know, almost illegally draw lines that now there's like essential lawlessness around because the Supreme Court has, like exited this area. And so that is like the fundamental, you know, I mean, we just live in a world where if one party is going to do, put power above everything else. The only way to address that is really strong countermeasures.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I have another strategic question for you about Texas. That's. It's a little, maybe a little touchy. And so I want to give a, give a, give a long preamble to it to be nice to people. Because you had Beto at cap yesterday. I love Beto. It seems like he's thinking about running. I don't know if he's going to. I like Colin Allred a lot who's running for Senate in Texas. This guy James Talarico. I don't know him, but he seems like a good person. And his Joe Rogan interview is nice.

[Tim Miller]

You look at Iowa, Zach Walls is running.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Great guy.

[Tim Miller]

All these people seem like good people.

[Unnamed Speaker]

They also all seem like different flavors of vanilla Democrat to me.

[Tim Miller]

And the Democrats really need to win Texas or Iowa if they ever want to take back the Senate again. And so I don't know, you're kind of more in these meetings than me. I say it about myself. I like me as well. But I wouldn't pitch me as the solution for winning back a Louisiana Senate seat from Bill Cassidy. I don't think I'd be the strongest candidates to put up for that. You know, a gay, a gay guy I don't think is probably going to win Louisiana, even as a former Republican. So you got to be kind of hard headed about this stuff. Is there any effort to like try to recruit people in these states like that, you know, have a little bit of independence from the Democratic brand? Are those conversations happening? Are there worries about this or is everybody just going to kind of get on board with, with the horses that we got in these races?

[Neera Tanden]

You know, I think the thing for all of us to think about is how do we have policies and ideas that can actually win in purple, purple to red states. So, you know, I think this is like the big, you know, we have this big debate. Should we. There are lots of Democrats who are like, you should recruit, recruit like union members who were independents and a bunch of these states.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Dan Osborne style.

[Neera Tanden]

Like a Dan Osborne style. And look, John Bel Edwards won the governorship of Louisiana and he is, you know, he is pro life, he's anti choice, but he did a Medicaid expansion or Andy did a Medicaid expansion. You know, I mean, and like did a lot of good in that state. Right. So I think, think we have to do really two things. One is we have to give grace to people who have different positions than other people in states that they are running in. But I also think we need a fundamental rethink of how we have policies and ideas that can appeal to people in a place like Iowa as well as a place like Illinois or California. And I will say, you know, this is maybe to get to it, you know, this is one of the ideas behind our immigration plan. We know center for American Progress put forward an immigration plan that secures the border. It ends the abuse of the asylum system. We do believe there was misuse and abuse of the asylum system over the last four years. Longer actually, since 2017 started, really 2015, 2016 grew in 2017. Smugglers figured out the system back, back over like almost a decade ago. So we fixed those parts and also believe we should expand legal immigration and I think and provide a path to citizenship for people who've been here 10 years or longer. And I think that plan, you know, that plan is broadly supported in the country. It's as 60, 70% and can and can be a plan that you could talk about in Iowa and California. And that is what I think actually the party needs to do. It has to have ideas. I mean, you can ask candidates to go into states and run against the party, right, like, or you can expand the tent of the party so that it's actually welcoming of ideas that are a little bit more broadly expansive than where we have been. And my view is that, you know, it's important to offer ideas out there that a person running in Iowa doesn't have to run away from, but could actually strongly embrace and say this is kind of a mainstream view because the truth is we live in a hyper polarized world and you can have a great candidate, but if basically they have to say I'm going to vote, I'm going to fight the party, then if you really want to fight the party, you'll just go with the Republicans. I think you have to actually engage in a broader effort to recenter ideas. And the party and our immigration plan is one step in doing that. We also have to have ideas that excite our base and other things. We're not fighting with the base every day, but we're trying to create ideas that can unite people to get to a better higher ground and not create those conflicts. And also just to say one last word. And in Iowa and other places, I think if you have a plan, if a Democrat even in Iowa has a plan where they can talk about a secure border, it allows them to go on offense against Republicans who right now are like eliminating due process or ignoring due process to pick people off the streets who have been here 10, 20 years, eliminate the legal status people have so you can deport them. I mean, people have been here 30 years, 25 years, 30 years under legal status from temporary protected status because they were fleeing a communist regime. They got that status. This administration's policies are so extreme, they're getting rid of that status so they can deport them to countries they don't even know. So I think Democrats should be able to go on offense on these issues, but they probably feel more secure if they have a big plan that does that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, I think that you're right exactly. On the immigration stuff.

[Tim Miller]

I guess I would ask if there.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Are any other of those types of policies you want to talk about, about what might make sense for the Democrats in a proactive policy platform.

[Tim Miller]

But also, just think about it in the context of. I mean, I'm with you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, I'm a moderate squish, so let's put out a policy platform that's gonna appeal to 60% of the country. That's probably gonna appeal to me more. But that's not really what MAGA did.

[Tim Miller]

Right. Like, they put out their Project 2025.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Plan that had a lot of deeply unpopular things in it, but they were.

[Tim Miller]

Able to kind of offset it because.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Trump, like, did run against the party, not against the Trump Party, but against the Bush party, basically, unlike wars and entitlements, essentially.

[Tim Miller]

And so, I don't know, is there not room to kind of do both?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right. Like, have a, you know, have a broader, more appealing agenda, but also run against whatever people perceive to be some unpopular parts of the party over the last decade?

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, but, you know, you could embrace our immigration plan and be a critic of, you know, what happened in last administration. Right. Like, that's a. That's a way to also think about it. Trump did attack, you know, where I think lots of people thought the George Bush administration had gone wrong, which is the Iraq War was a disaster, and he was willing to say that. So, you know, I mean, future Democrats could say, maybe we handled this problem badly. That's fine. I think that's, like, important and good. I think it's. I do think people want candor, and it's important to be honest about those things. I guess I'd say, you know, when it comes to Project 2025, I think we should be really clear, like, the Trump campaign was lying, but did say that Project 2025 wasn't their agenda. And so, you know, I do think there's an important role for people to do. Actually a version of Project 2025, which was go agency by agency, and our version we would, and we will do this at the center for American Progress, you know, go agency and aid by agency and actually think about how we can rebuild them to actually meet people's needs. Which it's kind of the inverse of what Project 2025 did, but it is like a similar kind of detailed plan. Over the next year, we're going to be putting out ideas on a whole slew of issues. And I think again, we think of these as issues that can attract a broad majority, but they won't necessarily always be like squishy bit moderate or whatever. I think there's really bold ideas on housing that we can do that get to supply, but also take other steps. We will be offering ideas on, you know, I think how we ensure public safety in the country. Want to just remind everyone that working class people experience crime at a much higher level than, you know, college educated folks. And sometimes if we feel impervious to crime, we can communicate that it's really not that big a deal. And I think that's a problem. So. But you know, I also think it's wrong that Republicans kind of, and Trump does this every day. He creates a strawman between improving public safety and caring about people's civil rights. And we don't have to choose. We can actually lower crime and maintain due process rights and respects for people. So, and I think, in my view, I think we have to answer the mail across the board. Like, I think a big challenge is sometimes we don't engage in these ideas, these debates. We just like retract. And I think that is a huge problem.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So you're not worried about the recruitment like me? We got into policy.

[Tim Miller]

You're not worried about the, you don't feel like this is a fine position to have?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I don't think there's a clear answer. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Like I don't, you know, going out and recruiting eight Dan Osbornes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I don't know, like, that might not work, but it's different. It's something different. And the Democrats haven't won in these states in a while in the Florida, Texas, Ohio, Iowa type states. And so I'm kind of open to different ideas. But where are you at on kind of the recruitment side?

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, I guess my take is I'm open to different ideas too. And I actually think, honestly, I mean, like, if independents want to run, I think that then it like puts pressure on Democratic candidates to actually Prove that they can win appeal. I mean, I think my take in the Trump era is we should do whatever it takes to beat back the assault on democracy. And if that's a Dan Osborne estate or others. But, you know, I also think let's give people some chance to show that they can get a strong majority, that they can actually win.

[Tim Miller]

Thinking of different ideas, I have to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Ask you about Zoran Mania. You haven't always been the darling of the Zoran wing of the party.

[Tim Miller]

I wouldn't say, based on my hearing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of your Twitter mentions.

[Neera Tanden]

I'm big tent. I'm big tense. I'm big tent everywhere.

[Tim Miller]

You're big tense. So you're cool. I don't want to push you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What were your observations about the Zoron campaign? What do you think about.

[Neera Tanden]

My basic take is like, we should learn lessons where we can get them right. He communicated. He communicates in a great way. He's very candid. I do think, like the lesson. You know, one of the things I draw from his videos, which I find very entertaining, honestly, is that he is taking on, like, things elephants in the room. He talks about, you know, the New York, like, basically New York Post out to get him. He jokes about it. He. He's funny. I think he does understand politics is also a little bit about entertainment. He's gotten a lot of young people to support him. I mean, I have some, you know, I do think he should condemn just clearly globalized intifada as an anti Semitic term. And so, you know, but it does sound like he's moving in some direction or to me, it's not that complicated to just say it's like anti Semitic. It seems like an easy sentence. But, you know, I think we should be candid that we are kind of in a shitstorm, honestly, and we have to learn a lessons of victory wherever we can get them. I also think New York City is a big, complicated place and people in our party, or in the Democratic Party, I should say our party, where I'm a 501C3, but in the Democratic Party, the broad center left should recognize New York has elected Republicans multiple times in the last couple of decades. So I think if I were advising the Mamdani campaign, I would say you also have to demonstrate there's a lot of talk about why aren't Democratic leaders embracing him. I could say they're not embracing him because there are some deep concerns about some of his stances. But he should also recognize he has to reach out, not just in talking to people, but in some of his policies if he wants to have a broad coalition to defeat his opponents in the election, some of whom, I think Cuomo did not run a good campaign. In fact, it was kind of a horrifying campaign in that he didn't actually campaign. But he's also, I think he's a tougher candidate than some people think in a general election in New York.

[Tim Miller]

I've become anti, anti Zoran a little bit, to steal a phrase from my old friends that are on the National Review who are anti, anti Trump, I'm anti anti Zoron. And I do. I think it's kind of weird that some of the Democrats haven't embraced. Honestly, again, you can say, I think.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He has some policies I don't agree with, but he's clearly better than Eric Adams. I don't know. I mean, you don't see a lot of Republicans saying, formally, saying, I refuse to endorse Marjorie Taylor Greene. I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe they should, I guess.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm not sure.

[Tim Miller]

What do you think it's a little strange that people are not just like, you can. You can, you can say, I would.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I prefer him with reservations.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I don't know.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah. Look, I mean, I guess I'd say I think just a mayor's race. I think, honestly, what's happening. You're right. It is just a mayor's race. And, you know, because it's New York City, everyone thinks America is fixated on it. But I also think, like, look, I think there's a delicate dance probably going on behind the scenes of, you know what, where does he move on some issues? Where do leaders move on some issues, and where actual voters. So my take is this is probably not the end of the story. It's probably the beginning of it, where it is. And we're not like Democrats aren't like Republicans most of the time. That's a good thing. We aren't just falling line with everybody, et cetera.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Tim Miller]

The question was out. And halfway through the question, I was like, wait a minute.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I want Republicans to not endorse Marjorie Taylor Greene. What am I doing? Why am I modeling that?

[Neera Tanden]

Are you like, we're supposed to, like. I mean. And also, you're making. I mean, even. I'm not saying Mamdani is like Marjorie Taylor Greene. I just want to say you.

[Tim Miller]

I'm comparing him to Marjorie Taylor Greene. Well, I mean, they both have the same position on Israel, I guess, so they have that one thing in common. Okay, we're going to move on Before I get in trouble. Speaking of the delicate dance behind the scenes, Chris Murphy said something to me yesterday. Now that I'm a media man, I'm a podcaster, I'm like out of, I don't go to the conferences with the donors and stuff anymore. That's just not my world. It used to be my world. You're still in that world. He was saying that he's pretty concerned.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That Democratic donors are going to sit on the sidelines out of a combination of fear of retribution from Trump and a feeling of like it's a fait accompli. The midterms are always good for thou party. Why should I put myself on the line?

[Tim Miller]

Are you worried about that? Are you seeing that at all in your kind of convos?

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, I think an asymmetric asset that Trump has and is definitely using is that he uses fear to intimidate people. So I think there are a range of institutions and not just donors, philanthropy, like the business sector, who's, you know, would have been in any normal world standing up a lot more to the insanity that we're seeing. And, and there are actually a whole range of people who I think are just basically intimidated into not engaging in the fight. And I find that very frustrating as a person who's engaged in the fight every day and just, you know, can't. Like, I'm definitely under right wing attack, but like, you have to, I want to tell my grandkids that I did everything I could in this moment to save the country. And I definitely think that's what's at stake. So I feel like people, the more outrageous Trump has become and the less popular he has become. And so it is important to remember he, his it's not like, you know, I think there's a discourse in democratic politics a lot or in like the broad center laugh, you know, does politics polling doesn't actually matter. It doesn't matter if people go into the streets. He's impervious to everything. But it really does matter. It is signaling to other people that you can stand up against him. And when other countries that, you know, other countries that have gone through authoritarian threats like this or bond others, when the opposition just goes to sleep because it's so ugly, that is when democracy fails. So I do think like donors are kind of getting a lot of people are kind of coming into the fight, there's obviously a need for a lot more. But we should also recognize that there is a, there is a kind of tremendous amount of fear. I mean, I've never Had people raised to me issues like could the administration come after me? And they are now. And that is a deep concern. But it's also, it's important to remind people every day he is a deeply unpopular president. He is the most unpopular president at this time. His actions on things that are strengths like immigration are unpopular with the country. His positions are unpopular. The majority is against him.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I love that you're in the fight. That's what I appreciate about you. Is there anything that you're hot under the collar about that I didn't ask you about?

[Tim Miller]

Do you have any rants you want to pop off on anybody?

[Neera Tanden]

I feel like, I mean, we could go on Jeffrey Epstein for 10, 15 more hours, but I feel like I might get in trouble. Everyone would sort of yell at me. The one thing I would say is you talk to a lot of leaders. A really important thing over the next six weeks into the August recess is for, it's really important we talk about Jeffrey Epstein. I'm not one of these people who are like, we shouldn't talk about this. We should only talk about kitchen table issues. But we have to talk about both. It is really important in the August recess that Republican House members who voted for this and lied to their constituents that it would be only minimal cuts, they would only vote for like 300 billion or $400 billion. My favorite, Mike Lawler, who said he would absolutely not vote for more than $500 billion in Medicaid cuts and voted for a trillion. They have to get the lesson in the recess that it is unacceptable to take away people's for tax cuts for billionaires.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. Okay, last thing. Do you ever look at JD Vance and think to yourself, man, in a.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Different world, I could have been the vice president. For a president that's only job was.

[Tim Miller]

To Twitter to quote, tweet our enemies. I feel like you would have been.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Really good at that, Neera. If we had realized 10 years ago that that was the only qualification.

[Tim Miller]

It could have been Biden Tandon maybe and your job would have just been shit posting.

[Neera Tanden]

I would have been so good at that. Let's just be clear.

[Tim Miller]

I know. So do you look at J.D. vance, you're like, damn, you know, no.

[Neera Tanden]

You know what's actually weird about, you know, like I was in government, wasn't really shit posting.

[Tim Miller]

I really behaved until you're in government.

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, I was really in, I was really behaving and you know, I liked, you know, I think a big difference between J.D. vance and I, I think we're probably both pretty good at shitposting but like I actually looked at government service as an opportunity to help people and I just not tracking that as his top priority really at the moment. So I think there's some big differences. Although we both went to Yale Law School and we were both research assistants for this very good kind of crotchety liberal. I shouldn't call him crotchety because boy, you're right. But professor. So I know a little bit about what's up professor, him and him that way.

[Tim Miller]

What about him? The thing about his Yale. Since you have that experience together thing that annoyed me.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I have so many things that annoy me about him.

[Tim Miller]

I find him repulsive across every possible metric. But he tells this origin story about going to Yale Law as a country boy and he sat at some fancy dinner that maybe that crotchety professor brought him to, I don't know. And he didn't know which fork to use and how he felt like everyone around him did.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And this was really radicalizing about how the elites have a culture that they don't translate.

[Tim Miller]

And I'm like, what are you talking about? We all went to college and didn't know shit. I don't know. Did you feel that way at all Yale? Did you feel like the ostracized for the elites about the fork usage?

[Neera Tanden]

You know, I will say, I mean not that I'm trying to be sympathetic to JD fans, but I will say, you know, I went to public schools my whole life until I went to, until, until I went to Yale Law School. And I loved Yale Law School. But you know, there were a number of people there who'd, you know, gone to private school like from the time they were two, not like five through like Dalton, Harvard, Yale Law School, like it was a much more natural thing for them. I mean the thing about J.D. vance is that the, when he was at Yale Law School, you know, this is what everyone says, you know, he was Tim Miller, like he was David Frum. He was, you know, he was like positioning himself as an intellectual moderate Republican who didn't like Obama at the edges and thought he was like, you know, had gone off, but there was like a reasonable middle in the country and he was like for a strong national defense, like strong. You know, I mean none of that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Gay friends and all that sort of stuff.

[Neera Tanden]

Like he's, you know, like his wife was Usha, like none of the hard right, hate your, kill your enemies. Like liberals are the monsters. I just want to eat them for breakfast. It was all like, can't we just get along in a slightly more moderate direction. So, you know, I personally. And it wasn't like he came to Yale Law school at, like, 19. You know, he had fully formed views by then. So, like, you know, I think the tragedy.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This is good.

[Tim Miller]

You also. So you're saying you also felt a little socially isolated from the prep school dorks, but it didn't turn you into a fascist. So that's.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah. I mean, I will say, let me tell a story. So, like, one of my first dinners, I did go to a dinner where I turned to somebody and I was like, oh, where do you come from? And this guy turns to me and was like. When I was like, where do you come from? He decided to give me his private school lineage. And so it literally turns. It says, like, I went to Dalton, then I went to choir, that I went to Harvard, and now I'm at Yale Law School. And I said. I said back to him. It's like, I went to public school my whole life, and we're in the same place.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. You're like, I wanted to know if.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You were, like, from Kansas City.

[Neera Tanden]

I know, exactly. I was like, what, like, state are you from? And he's, like, giving me his whole thing.

[Tim Miller]

And I was like, I'm stateless. I just went from prep school to boarding school, school to prep school.

[Neera Tanden]

You know, that's a little bit of the global elite right there, I have to say. Anyway, I mean, he's a lovely person, but I was. I definitely was like, my education cost a lot less than yours, and we are in the same place. So I took it as a point of pride. I didn't actually take it as, like, you know, I didn't take offense at it. I actually was like, wow, makes me pretty cool, because I didn't have all those advantages, and I've shown up in the same place, but I also don't hate everybody.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, right.

[Tim Miller]

It's a key difference. Another key difference. Thank you so much for being in the fight. I love your tenacity.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We'll be doing this again in a couple months. How's that sound?

[Neera Tanden]

That's great. Always fun, my friend.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we'll see you soon, girl. Everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Peace.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Can you catch a medicine ball? Can you catch yourself when you fall? You should be careful. Do you catch my drift? Cause what I really want to know is, can you catch these fists?

Level up. I know all too well. Just with your life, I don't want your love I just wanna.

[Neera Tanden]

On my.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Way to the club Stupid is stupid Limousine rocking up getty up yeah yeah.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah man down yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah Level up.

Fruit this always happens late at night Some guy comes up says I'm his type I just threw up in my mouth when they just tried to ask me how yet to approach me I just want to dance with my friends yeah.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well up I know all too well just what you're.

Like.

I don't want your love I just wanna fight I know all too well this is what you're like.

[Tim Miller]

I.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Don'T want your love I just wanna.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.