Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast Episode Summary: "Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives"

Release Date: March 6, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a profound dialogue with former Domestic Policy Council director Neera Tanden and Senior Democratic Senator from Pennsylvania, John Fetterman. The conversation delves deep into pressing political issues, reflecting on past challenges, assessing current crises, and strategizing future actions to defend liberal democracy against mounting threats.

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1. Introduction and Background

Host Introduction: Tim Miller opens the episode by sharing his personal connection to Neera Tanden's experience. He recounts how Neera’s denied cabinet position due to her "mean tweets" catalyzed his own political radicalization:

"Neera being denied a cabinet position for mean tweets was the beginning of my radicalization." [02:37]

Guest Introductions: Neera Tanden and John Fetterman are introduced, setting the stage for an in-depth discussion on various political challenges facing the Democratic Party and the nation.

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2. Cabinet Nomination and Political Radicalization

Tim Miller's Perspective: Tim Miller discusses the controversy surrounding Neera Tanden's cabinet nomination, criticizing the administration for allowing such political maneuvering:

"It was outrageous. And I just have to wonder how you controlled your rage, watching these dopes be confirmed without any issue." [02:37]

John Fetterman's Insight: John Fetterman reflects on the nomination fiasco, attributing it to Republican fears following their vote against Trump and impeachment:

"It's kind of bullshit. Right?... Republicans were able to make an argument about how ARP was actually driving inflation." [04:07]

Fetterman emphasizes that the Republican strategy was a charade to maintain their base by circumventing substantive policy debates.

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3. Foreign Policy and U.S. Alliances

Critique of Trump Administration: John Fetterman criticizes the Trump administration's approach to Russia and Ukraine, arguing that it undermines transatlantic relationships and U.S. supremacy:

"Trump is breaking the transatlantic relationship so that we can kowtow to Russia... This is weakness, this is cowering, this is against America's interests." [09:23]

Impact on NATO and European Alliances: Fetterman highlights recent actions by French President Macron, who signaled Europe's intention to rely more on itself rather than the U.S.:

"French President Macron has spoken about how they are now planning for Europe to go at this alone... Essentially they do not believe that America will defend other NATO countries." [11:14]

He underscores the detrimental effects of such moves, including compromised intelligence sharing and economic repercussions for American defense contractors:

"When defense contractors in Europe... become less profitable in the United States now... that will have consequences for American security, for Americans, the price of goods trade, the American dollar." [12:00]

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4. Economic Concerns and Policy Impacts

Economic Downturn and Policy Failures: The conversation shifts to the economy, where Fetterman expresses deep concerns about market instability, job losses, and declining consumer spending:

"The economic, like, impending potential catastrophe... it's even kind of worse than I expected." [15:53]

American Rescue Plan and Inflation: Fetterman critiques the American Rescue Plan (ARP), acknowledging its role in saving lives but also recognizing its unintended contribution to inflation. He contrasts this with Trump's tariff policies, which he believes have exacerbated economic woes:

"We passed the American Rescue plan... Republicans were able to make an argument about how ARP was actually driving inflation." [16:00]

Opposition Strategy: He emphasizes the importance of the opposition party’s role in linking policies to their direct impact on everyday Americans:

"The number one job of an opposition party is to draw the connection between what Trump is doing and how it affects you as a person." [18:30]

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5. Defense of the Affordable Care Act (ACA)

Successful Opposition Efforts: Fetterman recounts the Center for American Progress’s (CAP) pivotal role in defending the ACA against Trump’s repeal attempts. He highlights how effective communication strategies helped shift public opinion in favor of the ACA:

"We have had some successes beating this guy... the Affordable Care act... was massively unpopular, even amongst 50% of Republicans wanted to keep the ACA by the end of that debate." [23:19]

He underscores the necessity of demonstrating real harms to garner public support against repeal efforts.

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6. Advocacy for Trans Athletes and LGBTQ+ Rights

Neera Tanden's Stance: Neera Tanden passionately defends trans athletes in Pennsylvania, arguing against the politicization and vilification of a small, vulnerable group:

"They deserve an ally, and I am one... Votes or cruelty on social media aren't part of a thoughtful, dignified solution." [37:14]

She draws parallels to her own experiences combating discrimination, emphasizing the importance of dignity and equality in policies affecting marginalized communities.

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7. Messaging and Party Strategy

Messaging Challenges: Both guests discuss the Democratic Party’s struggles with effective messaging. Neera Tanden criticizes the party’s inability to resonate with voters by not connecting policies to tangible impacts:

"If you yell at everything, then everything just becomes absurd... I want to be very selective." [51:24]

John Fetterman's Approach: Fetterman advocates for highlighting personal stories and the direct consequences of Republican policies on everyday lives, moving beyond abstract criticisms:

"We're going to do a lot of this work... spreading the word of how people are impacted by Trump, everyday Americans." [28:00]

He underscores the importance of relatable, victim-centered narratives to engage and mobilize voters.

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8. Personal Reflections and Anger Towards Republicans

Ranking of Targets: When asked about his main sources of frustration, John Fetterman expresses his anger primarily towards individual Republicans who undermine norms and engage in divisive rhetoric:

"Every Republican who lectured a Democrat about norms and proper behavior... are going to shut down a range of Social Security offices around the country." [30:48]

Impact of Republican Policies: Fetterman details specific policies harming American lives, such as the termination of key personnel in health agencies, leading to drug shortages and compromised public services:

"Drug shortages all the time... We have a drug shortage. And I genuinely don't know who is going to protect us from that." [22:09]

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9. State of the Union and Political Conduct

Critique of Democratic Messaging: Neera Tanden and John Fetterman critique the Democratic Party’s behavior during the State of the Union address, arguing that it fell into ineffective theatrics rather than substantive messaging:

"What I'm saying though wasn't helpful and that wasn't moving the ball for Democrats... That's the wrong message on that." [49:13]

Comparison to Past Incidents: They draw parallels to past political outbursts, emphasizing the need for measured, impactful communication over sensationalism:

"When Joe Wilson yelled 'You lie!'... we became the Joe Wilson of 2025. And that was a loser in 2009." [49:48]

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10. Future Strategies and Closing Thoughts

Seeking Effective Communication: Both guests advocate for strategic communication efforts that prioritize clear, relatable storytelling over partisan bickering. Neera Tanden emphasizes the importance of choosing battles wisely to maintain credibility and effectiveness:

"I want to be very selective... your words will matter more if it's not always spending time yelling and saying that the world's going to end." [53:48]

Hope for Democratic Resilience: Despite acknowledging significant challenges, both Neera and John express optimism about rallying the party around impactful, evidence-based strategies to counteract Republican maneuvers and safeguard democracy.

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Notable Quotes

• Tim Miller on Radicalization:

  "Neera being denied a cabinet position for mean tweets was the beginning of my radicalization." [02:37]

• John Fetterman on Republican Strategy:

  "Republicans were able to make an argument about how ARP was actually driving inflation." [16:00]

• Neera Tanden on LGBTQ+ Advocacy:

  "They deserve an ally, and I am one... Votes or cruelty on social media aren't part of a thoughtful, dignified solution." [37:14]

• John Fetterman on Opposition Messaging:

  "The number one job of an opposition party is to draw the connection between what Trump is doing and how it affects you as a person." [18:30]

• Neera Tanden on Party Messaging:

  "If you yell at everything, then everything just becomes absurd... I want to be very selective." [51:24]

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers a robust examination of the current political landscape through the lenses of two influential Democratic figures. Neera Tanden and John Fetterman provide critical insights into the challenges facing the Democratic Party, emphasizing the need for strategic communication, effective opposition tactics, and unwavering advocacy for marginalized communities. Their discussions highlight the intricate balance between policy advocacy and political maneuvering, underscoring the imperative to connect with everyday Americans to defend and advance liberal democracy.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Yeah take me out to the ball game. What are you doing? Did you know DirecTV has the most MLB games? So you're singing? Yeah.

[Neera Tanden]

They put your favorite teams front and center, right?

[Tim Miller]

When you turn it on, buy me some cold cuts and Flapper Jacks.

[Neera Tanden]

Those aren't even the words.

[Tim Miller]

I'm allergic to peanuts. Stream DirecTV, home of the most MLB games. Visit DirectTV.com claim based on total games offered on national and regional sports networks. RSN is available with choice package or higher. Availability of RSNs varies by zip code and package. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a doubleheader today, Senator John Fetterman up in segment two. But first, I'm delighted to be here with the former Domestic Policy Council director in the Biden administration. She's now back as CEO for Center for American Progress. It is the great Neera Tanden. What's up, Neera?

[John Fetterman]

Well, we got a lot of problems. That's what's up. That's what's up.

[Tim Miller]

We have a lot of problems. We're gonna get into the problems. We're gonna spend most of the time on the problems. I first have two backward looking things for people. Number one, newbies. For new listeners who haven't heard this before, my full origin story. I just want to remind people that Neera being denied a cabinet position for mean tweets was the beginning of my radicalization. And now we have Gropi McCarras BluRay leading the department of Defense. But yet people couldn't confirm Neera to the Cabinet because, I don't know, she said a couple mean, deservedly mean things about Lindsey Graham. It was outrageous. And I just have to wonder how you controlled your rage, watching these dopes be confirmed without any issue.

[John Fetterman]

Well, if I had actually known that the Cabinet nomination problem, that whole fiasco, was actually contributing to your radicalization, I would have actually thought it was worth it. Maybe it was.

[Tim Miller]

I was ready to go into battle. I was going to put on a sword and shield with your face on it.

[John Fetterman]

I mean, you kind of did so, which I really appreciate it. My actual take on all of this when it actually happened, was that it was kind of bullshit. Right? So what was really happening at that time is a bunch of Republicans who had just voted against Trump by voting for impeachment were scared shitless of the Republican base. And so they used my nomination as a way to show that they were still Republicans and that the rationale, the rationalization was obviously ridiculous since each one of them just voted for some insane lunatic who's like, their mean tweets were like the nicest things about them. Right? Scoundrels, corrupt, ridiculous people who don't care about policy, in fact, really just want to use the government to hurt people. So, I mean, I think it just caused a charade, you know, But I knew it was a charade at the time. Like, it was ridiculous that people who were defending Trump and all of his tweets for the last the years, four years before that, somehow were able to read all of my tweets when they could never have read.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it was, it was interesting. They were on some special Twitter where they're only getting what you were saying and not what Donald Trump said.

[Neera Tanden]

I know.

[John Fetterman]

That's why now I'm like, hey, I'm tweeting. Maybe a Republican senator will see.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, they had you favorited and you've since sending some good ones. Right. My other backwards looking thing, you're the first Biden administration official I've had on since January and I'm just wondering kind of how you're feeling.

[John Fetterman]

That was a mistake for me.

[Tim Miller]

I know, Sorry, Sorry. But, like, I don't know, like you're looking back now, I just, I'm wondering how the feelings are.

[John Fetterman]

I mean, you know, I mean, do we have seven hours? I mean, like, I feel like I need some therapy for this. I feel a range of emotions. I feel, you know, we tried to do a lot of important things. I do worry that perhaps we didn't solve enough Problems. There were issues that we should have taken on or we took on too late. You know, I think we took on immigration too late. And I think we should be self critical about that. I don't think it's an excuse for the insanity we're seeing right now. But I also think that we should, you know, we have to be clear eyed about what went wrong, what went right. You know, the President did deliver on a lot of things and we have to understand why some of that resonates and some of that didn't. I mean, I'm really struggling on the economy, for example, and just, you know, you know me, I'm 100% candid. You know, we had a message for working class people. That message was we have a trillion dollars investments. Most of those jobs, most of those investments are translating into jobs for working class people. 75% of the jobs were for people who don't need a college degree. But that didn't resonate, you know, and why didn't it? I think, you know, this probably gets into the future of the Democratic Party, but I think we have to really like, you know, think through why some of the things we did didn't work, didn't resonate. You know, I, obviously we had some messaging challenges.

[Tim Miller]

Messenger challenges or messaging challenges?

[John Fetterman]

I will say messaging. You can say messenger. That's up to you. I will say messaging.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, what were your messaging challenges, do you think?

[John Fetterman]

Well, I think it was hard for us to break through. You know, I mean, this is just a huge thing like in America. Ezra Klein has written, talked about this. Like I do think politics today is about everything is about eyeballs and being able to attract eyeballs, like you know, just to sit back. I think we think of politics as like ideology and biography. We look at politicians through the lens of those, like traditional dynamics. And I think those are, those are important dynamics. But the ability to attract attention and keep attention is another important facet of political leadership today. And I just think President Biden was a, you know, had been in politics a long time. He's done a great, you know, I believe he's done great service to the country, was heroic in the legislation he passed. But we could not figure out how to break through the media cycle in the same way that, you know, obviously Trump does like, you know, every day before 8:00am well, that leads to my.

[Tim Miller]

Last burning question going backwards, I just had to ask you, which was, I still don't really understand, was that why he went out for the first debate? I still don't understand why he went out for the first debate. I think that it actually is a great debunking of the idea that there was some conspiracy to hide his mental decline. I'm like, well, if there was a conspiracy to hide his mental decline, why did they agree to the earliest debate in history? But I still don't really quite understand why you did.

[John Fetterman]

I'm just going to be, like, 100% honest. I mean, I don't know.

[Neera Tanden]

You're curious.

[John Fetterman]

Like, I wasn't in the political strategy meetings. I was domestic policy advisor. I was doing my domestic.

[Tim Miller]

I just thought you might have heard some buzz.

[John Fetterman]

I know. I mean, I think. I mean, I think genuinely they thought, like, what I was told is they thought that one of the reasons why the race was where it was was because people were not actually thinking Trump was going to be the nominee, or they weren't really identifying that he could actually be president. So it was important to join the race. Right. And, like, this is what I was told inside, like, a reason to do this was to show, put them both on stage, have a debate. Then you think the kind. Then you really think of Trump as possibly president. So they were definitely not thinking that it would go, you know, like, I think they thought the debate would go well. So.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I don't think Mike Don wants itching to come on the pod, So I guess I'll have to learn the answer in the books, but I'll take your word for that. I'm sure some books will come out that'll tell me the truth.

[John Fetterman]

I'm gonna learn a lot in these processes in the books, too.

[Tim Miller]

All right. Okay. Now we are where we are. I guess I wanna start first with the foreign policy. Even though you're a domestic policy person, you're banned by Russia. That's in your bio. I like that.

[John Fetterman]

I consider it a badge of honor.

[Tim Miller]

Are you concerned about what that means for your domestic security? Now that we have decided to side with R. Like, what do you make of what has happened in the last week? I mean, obviously it's been a long time coming, but it's become particularly acute since Friday.

[John Fetterman]

I think this is the most sort of disgusting display of American weakness in my lifetime. And I think the thing that Trump is doing is he has a lot of bluster and he owns a lot of people. But when you just ignore the bluster, what he is actually doing is breaking the transatlantic relationship so that we can kowtow to Russia. Right. There's no demands of Russia. He just wants to normalize relations with Russia. I mean, this is just a bonanza for Russia, and they give up nothing. And I think this is like, one of the challenges with the media is that they are hyper focused on the optics of, like, the meeting with Zelensky and whether he was wearing a suit or not. But what was fundamentally, who had the temper tantrum first? And who had a temper tantrum first? Was it all. I mean, this is the whole challenge with a lot of the media, which is obviously just theater criticism instead of, like, political analysis or even substance. But the truth of it is that the Trump administration, the goal of the Trump administration is not to demonstrate the United States supremacy over Russia and it's our general opponents, but actually to kind of be a subservient partner. And I think that we should step back and just recognize that, again, for all his bluster, this is weakness, this is cowering, this is against America's interests, of course. But I think fundamentally that Donald Trump has met the bully that he cowers to, and it is Vladimir Putin.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. We have some other news on this front. Since I taped the last pod, the administration is planning to revoke temporary legal status for about a quarter million Ukrainians who fled the conflict. Adding insult to injury, French President Macron has spoken about how they are now planning for Europe to go at this alone in a primetime address to France.

[John Fetterman]

To his nation, that the nuclear umbrella of France would actually protect other European countries, which means that essentially they do not believe the United States will defend other NATO countries, other European countries.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[John Fetterman]

A rational decision, but also really horrifying.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, just unbelievable. Again, it's like the kind of thing that you imagine for a movie, really. It's the French president saying, our nuclear umbrella will protect you from the Russians because we don't believe that America will anymore.

[John Fetterman]

Yeah. And I think it's also important to remember, or actually for all of us to really try to focus on not just it's important that we have these alliances, but why these alliances matter. Right. So why does it matter that we have this really strong relationship with Europe to people? And just as a reminder, we have intelligence sharing with many of our allies in Europe. Americans lives have been saved because we share intelligence. They have shared intelligence with us that have disrupted terrorist attacks that have protected American lives overseas. And I just want to say, when we get to a place when European countries do not want to share intelligence with us because they are worried that we could possibly share it with Russia, that will mean Americans are less safe. When defense contractors in Europe, their stock is tripling because Europeans are going to buy from defense contractors in Europe. I just want to remind secretary of senators from Alabama, Mississippi that those defense contractors are going to be, you know, basically less profitable in the United States now. You know, it's not like liberals love every defense contractor.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[John Fetterman]

But I think someone should raise these issues with senators, Republican senators. You know, the breaking up of these alliances is also, is, you know, I think we have to digest it and understand it will have consequences for American security, for Americans, the price of goods trade, the American dollar. There's a whole range of impacts from the, you know, assault on our allies. You know, I mean, the whole world is crazy when you're angrier at Canada and England and France than you are at Putin, who's a, you know, terrorist killer who invaded a country. And yet I just think we have to make the consequences of those decisions clear.

[Amy Brown]

Hey, it's Amy Brown from the Bobby Bones Show. Join me in supporting St. Jude Children's Research Hospital for a chance to win a trip to meet Megan Maroney at the 2025 I Heart Country Festival in Austin, Texas on May 3rd. Hosted by Bobby Bones. We're going to hook you up with tickets, flights, hotel, food credits, and a meet and greet with Megan Maroney. Take action now to support St. Jude and help cure childhood cancer. And you're going to be entered for a chance to win. Visit iheartcountrytrip.com to learn more.

[Manu]

Did you know that the world's most.

[Jack]

Shoplifted food is cheese? Or that in the 1960s, NASA astronauts smuggled a corned beef sandwich into space?

[Manu]

Or that Serbia is home to the World Testicle Cooking Championships?

[Jack]

QI is launching a brand new podcast. It's called Lunchbox Envy, and it's all about food.

[Manu]

Join QI's foodie elves. That's me, Manu, and me, Jack. Along with me, chef and food writer Rosie McKean, as we trade snacks and swap facts.

[Jack]

If you're a fan of qi, or no such thing as a fish or just plain hungry, subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tim Miller]

Among those consequences, you mentioned the economic again. You know, we're taping this in the morning, so you never know what happens. And we get a bounce back in the afternoon. But the markets are down once again this morning. They're down significantly over the course of the past week. There were some indications that there are going to be job losses coming. You know, based on report, consumer spending numbers are down. I mean, like, the economic, like, impending potential catastrophe that has been unleashed in six weeks is like, I mean, I have TDS but it's even kind of worse than I expected.

[John Fetterman]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I definitely thought for all these people on Wall street and elsewhere who were like, oh, it's going to be fine because he's going to be reined in by the market and he'll never want the stock markets to crash. It's like, nobody is safe. If you think that he's not going to do what he wants in his second term because he's concerned about the market, you know, which I think he described these gigantic crashes as a little bit of an adjustment. You know, I mean, that little bit of an adjustment or people losing their jobs, people having to pay a lot more. So I think this is a crucial issue about what, you know, a lot of people are talking about, which, what does the Democratic Party need to do? And I think the most important thing an opposition party needs to do is to drive the connection between the policies and the impact on people's lives. I think we could have a long debate about the American Rescue plan. And I know there were critics of it. It was trying to save the economy. But one of the challenges of it is that we passed the American Rescue plan, and again, I think it did really crucial work to save the American people. But we took an act early in the administration and then we had inflation, and Republicans were able to make an argument about how ARP was actually driving inflation. Now, again, the Fed did a lot more than the arp, et cetera. But here you have Trump's actual actions on tariffs, driving prices up and also threatening a lot of chaos. And ultimately, people will lose their jobs in a range of sectors because prices are too high. And this is the number one job of an opposition party to draw the connection between what Trump is doing and how it affects you as a person. And I think that the challenge for everybody is that he's doing so many things, he's violating the Constitution, et cetera. But I think a very simple frame is what is the action he is taking today that makes your life harder, that makes a working class person's life harder, that makes any American's life harder. Because, as you know, just to get into narrative, what the right has done over the last four years with Joe Biden was develop this whole archetype of, you know, there's this government, this giant Goliath that is using the Justice Department. I mean, I was always confused because, you know, either Joe Biden was like a puppet or he was a socialist mastermind.

[Tim Miller]

But either way was tough, depended on the day.

[John Fetterman]

But there was A nefarious big government effort to harm this person, you know, take away the rights of this person. Now, sometimes it was the just prosecuting a person who, you know, invaded the Capitol on January 6th. But, you know, they had this kind of David versus Goliath narrative. And my view is every day we have David versus Goliath every day. Donald Trump is hurting the American people. Individual American people, like veterans who are really trying to help address veteran suicide, who he fires and then rehires. And you know, even when it comes to doge, I think we really have to be hyper focused on the impact on the public, what it means for people. And, you know, I'll just give you an example that just scares the shit out of me. So if you don't mind, let's do it. Last fall during the campaign, I was the domestic policy advisors doing domestic policy work. And when the hurricane hit North Carolina, it took out this plant, it's called the Baxter plant. That plant produced 60% of the IV bags in America. So all of a sudden we could have been facing a massive shortage of IV bags. And you know, just to say IV bags are pretty important in the whole surgery thing, okay. So I and others start working kind of round the clock with people at FDA and this agency no one's ever heard of, called Asper at hhs. And you have career professionals who are working around the clock to ensure that we're bringing in the right kind of IV bags from around the world, from safe suppliers, so that there's a little disruption. But you never heard of anyone dying from the lack of an IV bag in the United States. Now a couple of weeks ago, most of those people were terminated on a Saturday night. The Asper people, the Asper people and some of the FDA people. And we have drug shortages all the time. A year ago, we had drug shortages of pediatric cancer drugs. So we have a drug shortage. And I genuinely don't know who is going to protect us from that. Right. Who in the federal government is actually going to work on that problem? This is a whole issue with hhs. You know, they're playing with lives. So I think that's the job of all of us. We're going to do a lot of this work at the center for American Progress to really drive the stories of how a person who's terminated, what it means for your protection, your safety, your health, your economic well being. And you know, I personally believe that when people, when you have the amalgamation of these harms, that that's the story we need to tell you Were working.

[Tim Miller]

On all this stuff closely. Right. I think the other misconception is that all of these people are upper middle class nerds that live in D.C. when you're having huge cuts at the VA, huge cuts at some of these other places. One of my Uber drivers was driving me. I'm going to do it. Tom Friedman was driving me. And he was like, he used to do background checks. The people that do the background checks for the government are everywhere. It's just random jobs you don't think about. So, like, these are hitting all of these, and obviously it's going to hit Maryland, Virginia disproportionately, but it's hitting all of these other communities too. And, and I think that those are other, like, people to elevate, I think.

[John Fetterman]

Absolutely. And look, they're now going after. They're going to shut down a range of Social Security offices around the country.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[John Fetterman]

You know, that's this security offices are about how you get the benefits you're supposed to get right now, your earned benefits of Social Security. So, you know, I think the truth of this is that Trump's crazy. His antics, his sort of everyday antics can't let us forget the real harm to people. And again, we have had some successes beating this guy. Things are different. They are dramatically worse than his first term. But I am really proud of the fact that the center for American Progress was a real leader of the effort to defend the Affordable Care act from Trump's assault, his effort to repeal it. And just to remind everyone, and I think this is a hugely important lesson for us as well, the Affordable Care act, unfortunately, was not popular when it passed. It was not popular from the day it passed until Donald Trump tried to get rid of it. And when he tried to get rid of it, we as an opposition were able to communicate to the country how many people will lose health care. 23 million people across the country would lose healthcare. And it became much more popular and it actually cleavaged Republicans. And, you know, everyone talks about John McCain, but the reason, you know, people forget 10, 11, 12 Republicans voted against that bill even in the House. And that happened because it was massively unpopular, even amongst 50% of Republicans wanted to keep the ACA by the end of that debate. And that is a job in front of us. It is to show the consequences. It is demonstrate the real harms. And it is to say, you know, none of you have like magic boots around here. You have to deal with political constraints just like the rest of us. Donald Trump is not some magician. He cannot just make everything change. Republican House members, Republican senators are going to face voters, and it is up to us to show those voters the consequences of their actions. It is not hard.

[Amy Brown]

Hey, it's Amy Brown from the Bobbi Bones Show. Join me in supporting St. Jude Children's Research Hospital for a chance to win a trip to meet Megan Maroney at the 2025 I Heart Country Festival in Austin, Texas on May 3rd. Hosted by Bobby Bones. We're gonna hook you up with tickets, flights, hotel, food credits, and a meet and greet with Megan Maroney. Take action now to support St. Jude and help cure childhood cancer. And you're gonna be entered for a chance to win. Visit iheartcountrytrip.com to learn more.

[Manu]

Did you know that the world's most.

[Jack]

Shoplifted food is cheese? Or that in the 1960s, NASA astronauts smuggled a corned beef sandwich into space?

[Manu]

Or that Serbia is home to the World Testicle Cooking Championships?

[Jack]

QI is launching a brand new podcast. It's called Lunchbox Envy, and it's all about food.

[Manu]

Join QI's foodie elves. That's me, Manu, and me, Jack. Along with me, chef and food writer Rosie McKean, as we trade snacks and swap facts.

[Jack]

If you're a fan of QI or no such thing as a fish or just plain hungry, subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have any tactical thoughts? I mean, this is, you know, you're back now. You're back in politics role, not in policy role.

[John Fetterman]

I'm here at a think tank. We do both.

[Tim Miller]

You do both. You're right, you're right. Okay, I'm sorry, but, but let's be real. You're the head of the think tank. There are thinkers at the tank that are doing the policy stuff. You got to do the politics. You've mentioned a couple of times. We're talking specifically about. It's a broad group, but it's one group. It's mostly non college voters of all races. More men than women, but some women. People that don't consume the Bulwark or New York Times or CNN for that matter.

[John Fetterman]

So sad.

[Tim Miller]

I know, it is sad. I mean, I guess probably have a better chance of consuming us than CNN or the New York Times, but, you know, but I don't think they can see any.

[John Fetterman]

I'm not saying this to, like, make you seem cool or anything, because I definitely know you're not cool, but my son who's like online all the time, I was like, I'm gonna do this podcast. And he was like, oh, oh, he's cool. You know, he's 19.

[Tim Miller]

He's like, what's up teenage Tandon? I always, I tell my husband's always like, you have two core fan bases, nerdy 19 to 24 year old boys and like 60 year old plus women.

[John Fetterman]

Oh my God.

[Tim Miller]

Those are the people that stop me the most.

[John Fetterman]

I tell him you described him as a nerd. He'll be like, I don't want to be associated with you ever again.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, sorry, I don't know him. I don't know, maybe he's very, maybe just a very cool kid that also likes the bulwark.

[John Fetterman]

Also possible this is what's cool about you. He's actually not a nerd. He doesn't like, he's not like, you know, he doesn't like watch political podcasts. He actually, whatever. So this is leans into what I think, which is like our tactics, which is we have to figure out how we get these stories of harms to people everyday Americans, working class Americans, you know, people are like, who's our best Democratic leader to fight channel Trump? And you know, I, you know, I understand people are really scared and want leaders and are anxious and gnashing their teeth all the time, but I actually think our best voices, to be clear about what Trump is doing is not another politician, but actually an everyday American who's victimized by what Trump is doing, but who is scared about what Trump is doing, who's harmed by what Trump is doing. And that can be, you know, a working class person. It can be people who look like your friends and neighbors. They are the best messengers and those are the messengers we need to work on getting out of through all our channels and try to get on to channels where people aren't watching news every day. That's a lot of the work. That center for American Progress Action Fund headed by Naveen Naik will be doing a lot of that work to ensure that we are spreading the word of how people are impacted by Trump, everyday Americans, across all of social media platforms. We can, but really, you know, the most important thing, people are always like, what can we do? I've called my member of Congress five times. I actually think what the right did over the last decade is they made their activists kind of news amplifiers. They'll take an article, they'll send it to all their friends and neighbors. And as you know, when someone sends you an article, you tend to believe it more because you trust that person. So we're like really trying to engage in telling all your friends and family your Neighbors, your cousins and those in North Carolina, they have an important race. You know, spread information. That's like, spread information. Not on how outrageous Trump is and what a jerky is and what a bad guy is, but, like, actually what he's doing to people.

[Tim Miller]

On the bad shit that's happening. Yes.

[John Fetterman]

To people. You know, because I do think people are like, oh, yeah, he was bad and we still elected him.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, share my rants if you want, but that's not really going to do you any good. Yeah, share what is happening to people. I totally agree.

[John Fetterman]

And tell a story. You know, there's this veteran who worked in. You know, there's a story about a veteran who was in Iraq and he's working. You know, he worked at the va. He's basically helping patients. He's worried about losing his job. And, you know, I mean, do we really think that that's the person that, like, we really want victimized today?

[Tim Miller]

You know, is that the person that's to blame for our $32 trillion debt? Like, I don' I don't think so.

[John Fetterman]

Exactly.

[Tim Miller]

I hear you all that, but here's me, my one push. I go, damn politicians. Neera is pissed. You know how I know Neera is pissed? Because I follow you on social media, and I can see your rage, and you got denied a Cabinet slot because of your rage, and it was righteous fucking rage. And I will go to battle for you. And the number of people that are Democratic politicians that have near a level rage, I feel like I can count on one hand, maybe two hands. Why?

[John Fetterman]

Well, we're gonna have one of them, J.B. pritzker, a cap, in a few weeks. Very excited to have him here because I think he is channeling people's anger and rage, candor and honesty about what's happening. Trump is lying to you. He is hurting people. He's very clear in his language, I guess.

[Tim Miller]

While we're on rage, I have two other personal questions for you. I want you to rank who you're the most angry at. I want you to, like, when your blood really starts to boil. Like, when you think about a person or a group of people who is making your blood boil the most. I'd like to hear a top three, but I'll take one if you only have one.

[John Fetterman]

I think, like, really, every Republican who lectured a Democrat about norms and proper behavior, you know, I might be a little bit focused on that.

[Tim Miller]

Roger Wicker, all the random.

[John Fetterman]

All the random Republicans, these people who are like, you know, Biden didn't call us about Something, and that's like socialism, and then they're just on a dime, willing to basically bend the knee.

[Tim Miller]

But when you talk about that group of Republicans, who are you envisioning in your mind's eye?

[John Fetterman]

Okay, but now you're basically saying, will you please say Susan Collins so that I can reaffirm this?

[Tim Miller]

No, it's different for all of us. It's Dave McCormick for me. Everybody has their own triggering person, though. Thom Tillis is coming up close behind. Okay, that's a good, tough one.

[John Fetterman]

Thom Tillis. Let's go with Thom Tillis, because, you know, he has a Senate race, and right now he's acting like there's no general election. He only has to worry about a primary, which means he's actually thinking every Democrat in North Carolina is a sucker. And my view of that is you should prove him wrong by actually trying to engage your friends and neighbors and telling them there is actually a Senate race and he actually is accountable to the entire state, not just the Republican base.

[Tim Miller]

The genocide. Joe, people in your top three, or do they not follow along?

[John Fetterman]

I mean, they're not in my top three because I honestly believe many people were anxious about the war. I just wish they would be a little bit more vocal. I mean, I do think people should be protesting Trump. Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Sometimes that'd be an interesting idea. Maybe protest Trump. And he's trying to purchase Gaza. Okay. I joked earlier about whether you were worried about your legal status here since you've been banned by Russia, but, like, seriously, now you're the head of a. You're a target, and a lot of people out there are worried about, you know, Ed Martin and Pam Bondi and the lawless kind of actions that we're see. How worried are you about this administration coming after political folks?

[John Fetterman]

I am very worried about this administration coming after political folks, but I really want to separate this out because I do think their fear and intimidation is a tactic to silence people. So. And I do think there are Democratic leaders who say, oh, maybe we shouldn't protest because it'll be an excuse for them to use martial law. And we cannot have pre cowering, pre obeyance. So, you know, I'm a little worried that the more effective we are, the more they'll come after us. But I think, you know, you cannot be scared if you let them get into your head, that they will scare you. You will, you know, you'll come back a little bit from your criticism. You'll not protest. Instead of protest, you'll take actions. And, like, this is exactly how democracies fail. So my view is I'm going to fight like hell. I'm going to act like this is still a democracy and I can fight like hell. And if they come out, you know, I'm not going to be insane, but if they come after me, then, you know, I'm going to expect that there are other fighters in this army that we're in, and they will use that as an argument for the rest of the country that we've gone off the, the deep end.

[Tim Miller]

I knew that'd be your answer. That's why I asked it. All right, I've got Federman up next. Do you have any questions for him? Senator for American Progress have any concern, any things you'd like for me to raise?

[John Fetterman]

I feel like you'll channel many of my questions.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Thank you for the trust and thank you to the fucking awesome son that you've raised who is like, obviously at keg parties and like, hanging out and dating people and very popular.

[John Fetterman]

That was worth the embarrassment of being popular.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, very. I'm sure you're very popular, very smart, very engaged son. Congrats on that, Neera. I appreciate you. Let's do this. I don't know, you know, every six weeks or so, let's do a check in, huh? All right.

[John Fetterman]

Great to see you.

[Tim Miller]

I appreciate it very much. Up next, John Federman.

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[Amy Brown]

Hey, it's Amy Brown from the Bobby Bones Show. Join me in supporting St. Jude Children's Research Hospital for a chance to win a trip to meet Megan Maroney at the 2025 I Heart Country Festival in Austin, Texas, on May 3. Hosted by Bobby Bones. We're going to hook you up with tickets, flights, hotel, food credits, and a meet and greet with Megan Maroney. Take action now to support St. Jude and help cure childhood cancer. And you're gonna be entered for a chance to win. Visit iheartcountrytrip.com to learn more.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we are back with the senior Democratic senator from Pennsylvania, It's John Fetterman. I've done a wardrobe change, you know, in your spirit. I am like your number one apologist about wearing the hoodie on the floor. There's no need to wear a suit for these people. All right, so you just keep doing.

[Neera Tanden]

You the truth story behind the hoodie thing. It's like, I never went to anybody or Schumer anyone to ask for that. You know, I. I read about that. I'm like, oh. I'm like, I never asked for those kinds of things. I was never gonna, like, just give speeches. You know, hoodie there. So. But. But. But for me, I'm a comfort guy, and I'm also. I'm also a lazy man, and I don't have to iron it. It's just easy to wash, and I'm ready to go. And plus, it's hard to find suits, too.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I appreciate it. I wanted to have you on. You really spoke out this week on defense of trans athletes, and I wanted to start there, and then we'll get into some Trump stuff, but you wrote this. The small handful of trans athletes in Pennsylvania are in a political maelstrom. They deserve an ally, and I am one empty show. Votes or cruelty on social media aren't part of a thoughtful, dignified solution. What made you jump out so aggressively on that, and what do you think a more thoughtful solution would be?

[Neera Tanden]

Because for me, it's been born from my commitment to never to pick on anybody. I mean, when I was very young, I got bullied and picked on, and that really kind of shaped a lot of my experience. And I'm not part of those communities. LGBTQ kinds of things. But now, that really started when I was a small town mayor, when gay marriage was illegal. Literally, it was illegal. And then there was an opportunity. There was someone starting to sign those things. And I said, 100%. I got on TV. I'm like, I'll sign them. Come with me. And that was illegal. And then the governor at the time threatened to have me arrested. And then I said, well, hey, you know, you know where I live. Bring it Bring it. And I signed for those things and that was the first. I was at the time the only official in Pennsylvania willing to sign those. And they all became legal. And that was back in 2013. And so it's the same kind of thing. It's like marriage equality, I really support that. And if I was convicted of that crime, because technically it was a crime, I'm like, well hey then that might be the end of my political career. But you know, I'll never, you know, degrade somebody based on who they love. And now for this. And I'm not dumb either. I know the polling and now a lot of people are saying it's absurd. It is third kinds of thing. And now. So for me that's when I felt like it's a time to really say look now for me it's about I'm not going to bully or I'm not going to degrade those. And now we're at 13 million people in our state and it's a small, small number of people that are involved on that. And I have a 13 year old daughter and she plays basketball and I'm not arrayed that she's going to get mowed down but, but for me, but it turns into an issue that is more appropriate to be handled on at a very hyper local level and not dropping them into a meat grinder and a national signs and weaponizing that. And I know I'm not dumb. I know there'll be commercials saying, you know, Fetterman's for they them and blah blah, blah. And I'm like, hey, you know, like bring it in. I'm not, I'm not afraid to stand for on my side on that because for these kids, for, for me how difficult that it is. And now in this kinds of a world, nuance goes to die and having a more meaningful conversation on that, it's difficult right now. So for me, you know, that I made, I made that choice and I could have tried to kept my head down like a lot of my other colleagues decided to do that. But, but for me, even though I know it's politically unpopular, I think that's the kind of time to do that. And I do believe that a person's character is defined by the things that they're willing to do even if that moves against their political interests.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I appreciate that. Maybe I should have got married in Braddock because it was like not till five years later that I got my gay marriage. It is just one more thing on the nuance of this. It's Just worth saying Martina Navratilova, not a liberal. I saw her tweeting at you on, you know, saying that. I don't know, it's different for teen girls. Like, and Gavin Newsom, big progressive, said that he is breaking with Democrats on youth sports. So I don't know, you know, he's.

[Neera Tanden]

In my opinion he's going to get the worst of both worlds of that. I mean he's going to be seen as just flip flopping and he's going to, he's going to anger like his progressive base and then, and we all know why he's doing those kinds of things. So. And then on the other side are going to know why he's making those kind of changes. So for me, like, it's like he's going to own the worst of both of those worlds for that.

[Tim Miller]

To me, the clearer one is the trans military thing. That's the one that like you, I see the nuance of the youth sports issue.

[Neera Tanden]

I did a video, I'm like, look, I mean it was not, there was a time when it wasn't controversial. Desegregating the military was incredibly controversial at the time. I'm not going to serve, I'm not going to fight, I'm not going to bunk with, with, with black soldiers. Now of course that needed to change. And then there was, I'm old enough to remember when don't tell, don't ask thing. And now it's like regardless of who you, who you love, I mean, you know, that doesn't make you more lethal or more suitable to be a soldier based on who you love. That was really front and center with the Hegseth nomination. Well, what about women in combat and now based on their gender and when you have gender neutral kinds of things that, and then it's, it shouldn't matter based on your gender. And now so regardless on how you identify, you know, that doesn't make you any more or less lethal. And as long as you're able to meet those kinds of a standard, for me it's about, it's about the dignity, the dignity of the soldier. And I'm not going to degrade that based on their race, obviously on their gender, on who they love and not how they identify. And that's why I did that video, knowing that it's not politically popular. So that's why I decided to lean on that because I think it's part of that narrative, that arc of whether what was really controversial and unthinkable based on race. And now we're along that arc, I.

[Tim Miller]

Think the military one might become popular. Framed the right way. The idea that like a, a draft dodging guy wearing makeup is going to ban people who volunteered to serve based on, you know, their gender identity, it's fucking, it's sick, it's gross.

[Neera Tanden]

To me, it was considered controversial. You know, it's like, based on who you, who, who you love. Like, I, I, I don't understand that. And, and I'm like, for me, like, for, for, I say to my conservative friends, it's like, it's about freedom. Freedom. It's one, those are the kinds of, the fundamental kinds of things on, you know, I love the freedom to love who you love. And, and now if you have that kinds of internal conflict about your gender, you know, I didn't experience those kinds of things, but I know people that, that have and they are coming from a very sincere place and they are trying to live, you know, their, their truths. And I don't think that they don't deserve to be ridiculed or turned into pariahs and definitely, you know, teenagers especially, I'm not going to be part of dropping them into that meat grinder.

[Tim Miller]

What'd you make of the Zelensky meeting on Friday and the way that the President's been treating our ally Ukraine, cutting off intelligence and now I guess a report this morning potentially getting rid of legal status for Ukrainian Felix, like asylum.

[Neera Tanden]

I've been unapologetically pro Ukraine. You know, I'm like one of the best things I've ever done as a senator. I voted for the aid for Israel, for Ukraine and Taiwan. I mean, like, for me, that's a global struggle against democracy and obviously Russia was the aggressor. Well, I'm old enough. I, I've say this before. I'm like, when I grew up, I'm like, Red Dawn. I'm like, you're cheering for the Wolverines. The Wolverines. And Russia was the evil empire. And it is, it is. If you disagree with Putin, two days later they find you because you fell out of a window. So I absolutely didn't agree with what happened in the White House, but I didn't jump on online and started yelling. But two things can be true at the same time. I certainly didn't appreciate what happened in the White House, but it's also, also undeniable that Ukraine doesn't have, you know, he doesn't have all the cards. I mean, what's true now, too, the President is the commander of chief and he has the ability to shape and really alter the contour of that. And if we're moving towards peace, I don't want to inflame that situation.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, we're not. Come on. We're not moving towards peace. What evidence is there that Putin wants peace? And Trump has not asked Putin for anything. What has Trump asked Putin for as part of peace?

[Neera Tanden]

Again, Putin is a killer. And of course, Russia is our enemy always. And that hasn't gone to change. My hope is that it is moving towards because I do not believe that the war in Ukraine is sustainable. And I have met amputees. I have met them. I have met them. And they're getting all back to the front line. And now if you're sending those wounded men there, it's a terrible situation. And if there's a path for peace, I don't agree those kinds of terms necessarily, and I fully support seizing. There's about 218 billion of seized Russian assets. And I'm absolutely like, they need to seize that. And those are the kind of assets that should rebuild it. We should rebuild that. And I don't think we should extract those kinds of funds and repaid our nation. Our nation. I thought it was always a bargain to break and humiliate the Russia military and demonstrated their lack of capabilities.

[Amy Brown]

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[Tim Miller]

Talking about not jumping online and being alarmed. You wrote after Trump's whatever That was not State of the Union speech. The address to Congress that your colleagues participated in, a sad cavalcade of self owns and unhinged petulance said we are becoming the metaphorical car alarms that nobody pays attention to. I don't know though, aren't we in car alarm territory? Isn't it time for alarm?

[Neera Tanden]

What I'm saying though? It's like, of course there are things that are concerned, but without realizing the circumstances and part of the reasons why we ended up in this place. I'm a big believer in American democracy. And right now when we're 53 and 47 in the Senate here and they own the government right now, and of course they're going to lose the House, I hope they're going to lose the House. So they're gonna do a lot of these things. I don't agree with a lot of those things. Do you think what they did during the sotu, if you thought that was smart messaging, if you landed. I mean, I don't agree with that.

[Tim Miller]

No, I didn't think it was smart. I agreed with you on that. But I guess I'd just say this, Trump, if I looked at your phrase unhinged petulance. I can't think of a phrase that better describes Donald Trump than unhinged petulance. All he did was call Joe Biden, Dementia Joe. He yelled and he screamed and he posted and he bleeded. He did embarrassing things and in the end he convinced a lot of people. I don't know, isn't politics part of politics telling people about all of the terrible things that the opposing party is doing? I didn't really think that what happened at the State of the Union was particularly good, but I think the Democrats should be louder, not quieter. What do you think about that?

[Neera Tanden]

What I'm saying though is what I witnessed wasn't helpful and that wasn't moving the ball for Democrats. I don't believe that. And if you can't just all stand and cheer for a 13 year old boy that got, I mean, I have a 13 year old myself, you know, got over cancer. I mean, that's the wrong message on that.

[Tim Miller]

I agree. Can't you do both of them?

[Neera Tanden]

And again, I remember, I remember, I remember when Joe Wilson, Joe Wilson, that jerk off, yelled, you lie, you lie, you know, and everyone recoiled and like that was appalled by that. And it's like, yeah, so, so now we became the Joe Wilson of 2025. And that was a loser in 2009. And I don't think that's a winner or it's appropriate anymore now in 2025.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I agree. When it comes to the behavior in the room, I'm talking a little broader than that. I guess my point is can't you stand and cheer for the 13 year old with brain cancer and then also the next day go out and say Donald Trump and Elon Musk are acting illegally, they're firing vets at the va Donald Trump is abandoning.

[Neera Tanden]

I don't agree with all those things. I don't understand what their upside is. You know, I don't know what they get out of a lot of that chaos. But now they seem to be wanting to triple down on some of that kinds of thing. But I do believe core is that, you know, if you become the party of chaos, you lose. And the second Americans decide, it's like, you know, you know, people aren't going to vote for chaos. And if you continue to create more and more and more kinds of chaos again, of course there is going to be a backlash. So that's where we're at.

[Tim Miller]

I defined your strategy the other day to somebody and you can tell me if this is wrong and maybe this isn't a strategy. Maybe you're just being you as you're basically voting with the Democrats on most everything. A couple of things. No, but like most everything you're voting with the Democrats but you're spending a lot of time talking about how they're annoying.

[Neera Tanden]

Most of them. The border. The border. You know, like I really pushed and got lakin, you know, I was like the co sponsor for lake.

[Tim Miller]

That's true.

[Neera Tanden]

And then Israel. Israel, absolutely. You know, like, you know, so not.

[Tim Miller]

Not, not most like you people were, were saying that you were going to vote for the cabinet appointees and like, you know, again, uncertain issues on immigration, on Israel. There have been policy differences from some in your party but a lot of the times you've been, you're still, I mean you endorse Bernie. Like you're still a pretty liberal person on most issues. Right. And you're just, it's just your rhetoric.

[Neera Tanden]

That was like eight or nine years ago, I mean and, and that was about very basic and like I've described, it's like, you know, the label left me, you know, like it wasn't that. So eight years ago the world, you know, the world was much different. People thought that it was unthinkable that Donald Trump could win and he did. Now I would like to remind everybody Trump, you know, won two out of the three last cycles and he nearly could have won the 2020. So why. And I'm trying to figure out a way forward. I, you know, hey, I wish I had a deep blue state or a district and I can yell and get on and you know, but that's easy, you know, and, and then they can monetize that and they can jump on an email and raise money for them, their campaign for that thing. But for me, I'm trying to find a way forward for our party and I'm not going to be a mansion. I'm not going to be, you know, I'm not going to go independent or doing all those kinds of things. So. But you know, when, when you represent one of the most purple land in the country and I don't believe I stopped believing and on like cheap heat online and just yelling just because I don't agree with it on the time. If you yell at everything, then everything just becomes absurd. That's why, you know, does anybody call the police when they see or hear a car alarm going off? No, you know, no, people ignore that. So if everything, you know, in the, in the world is on fire and that actually doesn't happen, people stop listening or just assume that that's really what you do. So I want to be very selective. And now, like a constitutional crisis, the second the president defies the Supreme Court or any of that that defines, that's literally the definition of a constitutional crisis. And I'd be the first person to just be like, no, we have a, you know, so I think if you pick your own fights. So I like to believe that, you know, your words will matter more if it's not always spending time yelling and saying that the world's going to end.

[Tim Miller]

You said you think the left or the progressives or whatever left you. What do you think changed? Because, look, it's funny. In 2015, you were endorsing Bernie. In 2016, I was for Jeb. So here we are. Something's changed and people kind of wonder whether you've changed. But I guess you're saying that you don't think you've changed. You think that the progressives has changed or have you changed?

[Neera Tanden]

Well, I think it's both. For me, if anything, what happened about Israel, what happened on 10 7, a lot certainly changed. I was shocked the way that members of my party, the way they behaved for that and also the border. I mean, you know, if you've been on my social media, I dropped a chart. And it's like, you know, what's real chaos? What's real chaos, you know, 250, 300,000 people showing up at our border every month. That's the size of Pittsburgh. And now, like, that's real. That's chaos. And the Democrats have no, had no answer to say, well, oh, it's all going to work out. It's all just fine. You know, like, everything's fine. There's nothing wrong there. So that really is, that's, that's true chaos. And I, I, as my party tried to, you know, I tried to warn that we're gonna, we're gonna be punished by this and trying to pretend that we're wrong. And I always knew we were gonna get rolled on that bipartisan deal thing. Do you think Trump's gonna give and walk that and give that away? I always say, like, I'm never going to pick a fine on fried chicken with Colonel Sanders. He owns the border and does. And that's definitely too valuable for him to hand that away. So it's obvious we were going to get rolled.

[Tim Miller]

So going forward, one thing I wanted to ask you is I was listening to some focus groups yesterday, and there were some guys that, I don't know, kind of sounded like you. They're these kind of voters that they really don't like Big Pharma. You know, they like Bernie, but they also really appealed to rfk. RFK appeals to them because they think that Big Pharma, these big corporations are out to get them. These used to be Democratic voters. They're examples of these young men that now have kind of lost trust in institutions that are now becoming MAGA voters. And I'm wondering how you think Democrats could get them back.

[Neera Tanden]

I'm not sure. I've witnessed that starting back in 2015. 16.

[Tim Miller]

So what would be your strategy to vote for them? To vote for you? Forget the Democratic Party. Like, what can of messages do you think you're going to focus on that you think might resonate with them?

[Neera Tanden]

I'm not like a you should, you should, you should guy. It's my own examples and the kinds of things that I happen to believe, and that's why I'm willing to talk to everybody. And that's not why I think that everything that comes from a Republican is bad or evil or it's terrible. And I try to find things that we can agree and there's some things that we're not going to agree on and all of those things. But I promise you, a lot of the messaging that's being emerging in every sense after the inauguration, I don't think that's going to be the kinds of messaging that's going to change our party in the ways that can avoid that. We end up in a way not, not different than we were back in 2024.

[Tim Miller]

What about the Bernie messaging since the election? Really? Just focusing on billionaires, focusing on these big corporations, focusing on big pharma and how Democrats need to be the party of reform and going after, you know, the wealth gap. What do you think about that? Is that, does that appeal to you at all?

[Neera Tanden]

I think they've been there. Very, very bizarre. We were forced to spend till 5 in the morning to keep having all these, these, these empty show votes, you know, trying to tie the Republicans to billionaires. I'm like, hey, they campaigned with a billionaire, though. The, you know, they, I'm like, we love them. They announce it, you know, they get in front of now. And now they just went at this, at the State of the Union speech. Hey, I love that billionaire. That's my partner. Having all of these silly votes till five in the morning that never went anywhere. It all just vanishes and never goes anywhere. I don't agree with a lot of this messaging. It's not helpful. I'm just going to continue to try to find a way forward, but I'm not going to spend time yelling online and dropping silly videos or just, you.

[Tim Miller]

Had lunch with Trump and I don't know, he's easy to flatter, right? And afterwards he's like, that guy is better than I thought or whatever. So I don't know, he's probably more likely to answer your call than mine saying that he doesn't like traitors. But I'm wondering if you were to call him back up. Is there a specific thing they've been doing these first two months that you are most upset about that you would like them to change course on? Not politically, but like an actual substantive policy that you could try to persuade them on. What would it be?

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, there'd be, there'd be a lot, there's a lot of things. But I don't flatter myself to think that, you know, like, as a Democrat, a senator is going to carry how much weight on that? But I don't understand what they're getting out of the chaos. I'd like to say, like, if the Republicans stop being dicks, they're never going to, they're going to lose an election. And if Democrats don't stop getting kind of crazy or goofy or fringy, then they're never going to lose another election. It's like, there's a lot of overreaction. So I really don't understand a lot of the chaos. And then when they say things that are absolutely not true, you just diminish your own credibility. So I think if they make some of those small changes, but. But I don't agree with many of the things that happen, but when I do happen to agree that we do need to secure our border, and I do think we need to really stand firmly behind Israel, I do. I. I agree with a lot of those things. Well, too.

[Tim Miller]

So when you did talk to, what did you talk to him about? When you guys had lunch, what'd you guys talk about?

[Neera Tanden]

We talked to a lot of different.

[Tim Miller]

Things, like his playlist.

[Neera Tanden]

I talked to everybody. As long as people are playing it straight. And that's what it was. It was a conversation.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, like the border, like his hair or money crypto. I mean, who knows?

[Neera Tanden]

And again, it's like, that's one of the. You know, I never divulge what happens in private conversations. Conversations. I mean, you know, they're always. We. We always have to have honor amongst thieves, otherwise things will completely break down. I met with all of the. The secretary nominees, and we all had conversations. And I. I never just ran to the press or said things or did that kinds of things. It's like, I play things straight. I will want people to play me straight. And as long as people do the same thing, I'm going to have a dialogue with. With virtually anyone.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast, and obviously, I don't think that your wish that the chaos will tamp down is going to happen. So as more stuff happens, we'll hope to be talking to you again soon.

[Neera Tanden]

Very good. Okay, thank you.

[Tim Miller]

All right, well, that was John Fetterman. We'll see what you guys think about that one in the comments. Much appreciated to him for coming on and for speaking his mind, particularly on trans issues. And thanks to our friend Neera Tanden. Hopefully we'll be having her back again soon. And rest easy to one of the greats, Roy Ayers. He wrote maybe the Vibe, Iest song of all time. Everybody Loves the Sunshine. We're not in a sunshine place right now, so I'm gonna take you out today with something else. Y'all can go check out the Roy Ayers discography and come back here tomorrow. We're gonna have one of your favorites on a weekend edition of the Bulwark podcast. We'll see y'all then.

[Neera Tanden]

Peace.

[Roy Ayers]

Now, what went down? I don't believe I just know I can't come see Searching when love is coming One believes that love will come right back to leaves I'll search you and in the day I will save myself this truthful way of searching searching, searching, searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching searching, searching, searching, searching.

[Tim Miller]

The Board podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

[Amy Brown]

Hey, it's Amy Brown from the Bobby Bones Show. Join me in supporting St. Jude Children's Research Hospital for a chance to win a trip to meet Megan Maroney at the 2025 I Heart Country Festival in Austin, Texas on May 3rd. Hosted by Bobby Bones, we're going to hook you up with tickets, flights, hotel, food credits and a meet and greet with Megan Maroney. Take action now to support St. Jude and help cure childhood cancer, and you're going to be entered for a chance to win. Visit iheartcountrytrip.com to learn more.

[Manu]

Did you know that the world's most.

[Jack]

Shoplifted food is cheese? Or that in the 1960s, NASA astronauts smuggled a corned beef sandwich into space?

[Manu]

Or that Serbia is home to the World Testicle of Cooking Championships?

[Jack]

QI is launching a brand new podcast. It's called Lunchbox Envy and it's all about food.

[Manu]

Join QI's foodie elves. That's me, Manu, and me, Jack. Along with me, chef and food writer Rosie McKean, as we trade snacks and swap facts.

[Jack]

If you're a fan of QI or no such thing as a fish or just plain hungry, subscribe now. Wherever you get your podcasts.