← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:00]
Unknown Speaker
What is daddication?
- [00:01]
The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Dae Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.
- [00:22]
That's dadication. Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.
- [00:43]
Tim Miller
Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Could not be more delighted to be here today with the host of Deadline White House on msnbc. She's got a new podcast as well. The Best People with Nicole Wallace. It's Nicole Wallace. I finally get to turn the mic on you.
- [00:58]
Nicole Wallace
It's terrifying.
- [01:00]
Tim Miller
I'm thrilled, though. I felt horrible because I was like, when do I get to turn the mic on you? And you're like, you've never formally asked me.
- [01:06]
Nicole Wallace
You've never asked me.
- [01:07]
Tim Miller
This is question. I think I did. I don't know. I gotta be a tougher booker, you know?
- [01:11]
Nicole Wallace
No, I think there was a cool factor that I don't. I mean, I've not been on a lot of podcasts. John Heilman's the only one that invites me on his podcast.
- [01:20]
Tim Miller
I don't think it's the cool factor. I think people are scared because you're doing two hours a day, you've got a newborn. I'm like, do I want to bug Nicole?
- [01:28]
Nicole Wallace
You know what I mean? I've anchored the last two Saturdays, and I'm entering this mode of, like, always on. Like, it's like your endurance picks up when you do it more.
- [01:36]
Tim Miller
Yeah. All right. I want to talk to you about your news life. We got to do a little actual news first, if that's okay.
- [01:41]
Nicole Wallace
Sure.
- [01:41]
Tim Miller
Since yesterday's podcast, we've had a ceasefire announcement. More bombings. Another temporary ceasefire, more bombing. So it's a little tenuous right now. I did a TikTok with Sam Stein on YouTube if people want to watch that. But the latest, we have the president. I don't usually play Trump's voice on the podcast, but we're going to make an exception for this one because he uses one of the podcast favorite words. He's talking about his frustration with the fact that Israel and Iran did not follow the greatest ceasefire ever that he had announced on his social media. Feed. Let's listen to him real quick.
- [02:14]
Donald Trump
So I'm not happy with them. I'm not happy with Iran either. But I'm really unhappy if Israel is going out this morning because the one rocket that didn't land, that was shot perhaps by mistake, that didn't land, I'm not happy about that.
- [02:29]
Tim Miller
You know what?
- [02:30]
Donald Trump
We basically have two countries that have been fighting so long and so hard that they don't know what the fuck they're doing. Do you understand that.
- [02:41]
Tim Miller
Maybe true of everybody involved? Kind of. I don't. Does the Ayatollah know what the f. He's doing? Does Trump does.
- [02:46]
Nicole Wallace
Heck, I mean, there's always a projection, right?
- [02:50]
Tim Miller
What have you made about this whole 12 day saga?
- [02:53]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I, you know, I feel like Bill Barr gave us bullshit, cuz it was a direct quote. And now Trump has given us, you know, they don't know what the fuck they're. Now we can just quote him. So for that I'm grateful. I think that we have to be careful not to become amnesic. Right. Like this is a guy who couldn't pull off the egg roll without annihilating norms and ethics laws. And so we have to be really, really careful about what he says about the Middle East. Like, I get that he's the President, he's the Commander in Chief, he's the only one we have.
- [03:29]
Tim Miller
But.
- [03:29]
Nicole Wallace
But I'm uneasy broadcasting his tweets and his comments on a newscast because I don't know if he knows what he's talking about.
- [03:38]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And I saw that last night and I was up laying in bed doing the unhealthy thing where I'm scrolling social media while also being in bed. So you're doing that and we're like coming up on where the ceasefires were supposed to be and he is sending out a bleat about how great and brilliant everything was and how it's the best ceasefire ever. You know, in one post and then the next post I see is like 4 dead in Israel because an Iranian missile broke through the Iron Dome. Right. So it's like in real time he's giving fake information.
- [04:12]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. And I think it's for, it's for another draft to figure out if he knows it's false at the time. You know, I don't know.
- [04:19]
Tim Miller
I mean he would have the ability to know if I knew.
- [04:21]
Nicole Wallace
Correct? Correct. But he remember living dog years. But I think it was four days ago that he broke with his hand picked Intel Chief. So it's unclear where he's getting his information. It's unclear if it's coming from US national security agencies or elsewhere or the media. I mean, it's completely unclear who he's talking to and who he's listening to.
- [04:46]
Tim Miller
I had Bill Kristol, me and Bill Kristol were going back and forth yesterday and he's a little bit, I don't know, his old neocon muscles are flexing a little bit right now and he's like, you know, I don't like Trump, but the mullahs are so bad and the Iranian people deserve freedom and we don't want them to have nukes. And if it's a tailored strike, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it weakens Iran more. Is there any of your old muscles flaring in that direction?
- [05:13]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I put all those muscles out to pasture. But I think a clear headed analysis, I mean, Senator Slotkin had this analysis that she'd been in Iraq and the Iranians have the blood of US Soldiers on their hands. I mean, they've been a threat and a danger and they're an adversary. And that's clear. But I think we're in a tricky zone where we're trying to sort of sift through the chaos and the mayhem and find little flecks of gold. I mean, sure, there will always be them. And the other one is, thank God all the men and women of the military that carried out this operation came home safe. That is truly a wonderful aspect of all this, but I'll leave that to others. I mean, I think my focus is on what happens next, what happens today, what happens tomorrow. And again, I think it's stupid to compare Trump to other presidents. It's fair to compare Trump to the last time he was president. And there is no one like Mark Milley around him. I mean, he seems to be listening to General Cain as chairman of the Joint Chiefs, but he doesn't say the same thing that he says. Trump's analysis the night of the strikes was that we had, quote, obliterated their program. Cain went out the next morning and didn't say anything close to that. An assessment hadn't even taken place when Trump addressed the nation. So there will always be flecks of gold in that little thing of sound we sift through. And that's a good thing. But I think that the bigger picture is what keeps me up at night.
- [06:48]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I'm going to make you list all the things that keep you up at night at the very end. A couple other news things I want to do. Lisa Murkowski was on Galen Drook's podcast, and credit to Gillen because he was really kind of relentless and questioning her about a topic. That has been something that I've been wondering for a while, which is why she isn't considering, if not becoming a Democrat, you know, teaming up with Angus King and creating some independent caucus within the Senate. He asked her about it. I want to play. You just. It went on for, like, six minutes. So I just want to play a couple of little bites from it and get your reaction.
- [07:21]
Unknown Speaker
Say Democrats win three seats in the next midterm election in the Senate, and they say, we're going to let you pass bills that benefit Alaskans. If you caucus with us, you don't have to become a Democrat. You can be an Independent. But if you caucus with us and provide the sort of fourth vote that we need to get from where we are now, and you can pass legislation that helps Alaskans, would you do it?
- [07:46]
Lisa Murkowski
That's my primary goal. I have to figure out how I can be most effective for the people that I serve. That's why I'm going to continue to do a really hard job, because I want to try to help people. My problem with your hypothetical is that as challenged as I think we may be on the Republican side, I don't see the Democrats being much better. And they've got not only their share of problems, but quite honestly, they've got some policies that I just inherently disagree with.
- [08:23]
Tim Miller
She goes on to, kind of, after he asked again and again to kind of say, well, I'm open to it. It's kind of a Jim Carrey. So you're saying there's a chance answer there? A little bit, but I don't know. That just kind of left me feeling cold. I'm like, I don't. I don't even really know what she's talking about. Like, what is it?
- [08:38]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, look, look. I mean, 2015 is calling, and they want their, like, BS, why can't you be a Democrat? Response back. Like, he's now orchestrated an insurrection against the U.S. capitol. You ran for your life. I think there's footage of it because of Trump. The Republicans did nothing when he pardoned all the insurrectionists that made you run for your life. He's put people atop the FBI and the Pentagon who, generously speaking, are inexperienced, accurately speaking, are completely unqualified. They were opposed. I mean, I think she opposed one or both of them. So the idea that their policy, she's not totally psyched about on the Democratic side is ludicrous. I think Trump is what he is. I think the Republicans are the bigger threat to the country at this point.
- [09:24]
Tim Miller
It's kind of crazy. And how do you process all of it? I just look at her and I'm like, we're now in year nine or ten of Trump. And one Republican, Jeff Van Drew of New Jersey, has switched parties from Democrat to Republican. None have gone the other way. And now we've had Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, who, like, we've had people who showed courage and then retired Jeff Flake. But I just. I can't process, like, why, like, what. What do you think is really holding her up, I guess is my question. Could it possibly be energy policy? Like, what could it be?
- [09:56]
Nicole Wallace
No, I think the policy thing is ludicrous. I think there's a nostalgia for the old days and a delusion of the snapback theory, which you heard a lot during Trump 1.0. Well, Trump will leave and we'll snap back to normal Republican stuff. Normal Republican stuff hasn't appealed to normal Republican voters for almost two decades now. I mean, it's why Trump won the primary in 16. And so the idea that they're waiting to get back to doing, I don't even know what they think the normal stuff would look like. I mean, Portman was normal, and he's gone. And he went along with all of Trump's stuff. And Corker was pretty normal, and he's gone. And I think it's this belonging, this affinity to stay in the club you've always been in. But I think it's delusional to think that it's ever going to be what it was when you joined it.
- [10:48]
Tim Miller
And I don't know about you. This whole thing has been pretty easy to me. I get thanked sometimes by liberals on the street. They're like, you're so courageous. I'm like, not really. Actually, he was a total clown. Wasn't even a close call. It was ridiculous. Had it been a closer call, maybe I would have been a coward, too. Maybe I would have gone along with somebody that was unqualified, too, but in a more close run, hypothetical. So it's hard for me. That's why I wrote the book. It's hard for me to process. Why is it so hard for all these people? Like, why is it so hard for Bob Corker and Lisa Murkowski? What do you think the reason is?
- [11:23]
Nicole Wallace
I used to really anguish about it. Think about this. There has never been a book reported out by a reporter from Capitol Hill or a political reporter. That shows anyone from J.D. vance to Mitch McConnell to Boehner saying anything privately. That's different from what you and I say.
- [11:43]
Tim Miller
Right?
- [11:43]
Nicole Wallace
Mitch McConnell, quote, Trump is a despicable human being. The most despicable human being. K.E. mcCarthy in that book by Jonathan Martin. Yeah. Impeachment was too slow. He wanted them to look at the 25th Amendment. J.D. vance, America's Hitler cultural heroine. So where I used to anguish, how do they not see what I see? The people who loathe him the most are the people who have completely sacrificed their integrity, their honesty and their faith to what was real conservatism. And so that gives me some relief that at least I'm telling the truth about.
- [12:21]
Tim Miller
You never listen to Lisa Murkowski and think, you know, she's making a point. Maybe I should be hedging a little more.
- [12:25]
Nicole Wallace
No, no. And I also think it's so lame. It's so lame if you're a partisan. You. You are on a side because you believe in things. For me, what I believed in, I. And people will sneer at this, but I believed in the democracy stuff. I think Liz Cheney did, too. And the idea that. That if that was your sort of path into being a Republican, that you don't see Trump as a threat to democracy, as your off ramp from it, is ridiculous.
- [12:55]
Tim Miller
I want to do the what you believe in, because I get this question a lot, too. What? I didn't know you until after all this. Like, we both worked for Jeb, like in different eras. Right. And because I'm old. Yeah, you're older than me. You are older. You look great, though. We Both worked for McCain, but in different eras of McCain. We never overlapped. And so I didn't kind of know you until all the Trump stuff happening. So, like, thinking back to baby Nicole, college Nicole, like, why were you a college Republican? What drew you to it initially?
- [13:20]
Nicole Wallace
So I wasn't. So I wasn't. I was a college journalism nerd. I squatted in all of the journalism classes at UC Berkeley, and I wasn't politicized by Berkeley. A lot of people either really embrace Berkeley's liberal history or don't see themselves in it. And I think they're was a college Republican Party there. I wasn't part of any of that.
- [13:46]
Tim Miller
Oh, yeah, My friend was a Berkeley college Republican. It takes a special type of contrarian to want to be the Berkeley college.
- [13:52]
Nicole Wallace
Republican, but it happens. But I spent my college years interning at local television stations. I worked this, like, overnight shift, like 2am to through the morning. Shows until they took the national morning shows. I covered the O.J. simpson trial. I covered the earthquakes and the fires in the Bay Area. I used to hop in the van and run around with local. Great, you are old.
- [14:14]
Tim Miller
You covered the O.J. simpson trial. I was a child.
- [14:18]
Nicole Wallace
I cut sound when I was in college from the night before's testimony. I think I was 18 or 19. And it would make up these, like six minute saw chunks on the local news before the national news. So I was like a TV news nerd. And when I graduated from Berkeley, I went to Medill, so I went to Northwestern, and I was a local reporter. And then after sort of shooting, actually, there were a couple stories that I just. I couldn't handle being the first person on accidents. I just. I couldn't take it. And so sometimes I had the scanner and sometimes I would get there before the ambulance, and I couldn't. I couldn't take that. And so I thought, local news isn't for me. And so I moved to Sacramento and interviewed with a Republican and a Democrat the same week, and the Republican hired me. And that was how I became a Republican president.
- [15:14]
Tim Miller
This is such a 90s story. This is like, people, young people really do not get this. But, like, that was. So Michael Lewis wrote. When I was writing the book, I didn't read political books because I don't know about you because I live it. And so I hate reading them. And so I never did. And so my editor was like, you've got to read a bunch of political books and tell me which ones you like so we can create a model. And I read this old Michael Lewis book from the 1996 campaign that's like, lost to history. It's called Losers, and it was about all the losing candidates. And it was so good. And he was so contemptuous of the fact that, like, the. The strategists on both sides of both parties, like, could have been totally indistinguishable and like, they could have switched sides very easily. And they got into politics because they liked politics as a game. And, you know, I was like, the number of people I know who worked for, I mean, you, I think, worked for Republicans and then voted against McCain and, like, then voted for Obama in 08. Like, there are still prominent Republicans around who privately told me they voted for Obama.
- [16:13]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, because I think to do it, you are idealistic. You're more Aaron Sorkin than the Federalist Society. Right. And so I watched the West Wing and I had this romanticized view of people doing the right thing. And I have an email relationship with Aaron Sorkin saying he ruined all this for me. You know, I keep waiting for someone to put the crime bill in the drawer because it doesn't do anything to fight crime. You know, he totally romanticized with the West Wing and the American president, what it would be. Yeah. So I started working for Republicans in California. I never worked for Pete Wilson, but it was sort of at the end of his time. And so George W. Bush was thrust onto the scene as the opposite in terms of immigration instincts to Pete Wilson. And so it's pretty funny that the party has circled back around to Pete Wilson, who couldn't make his way out of New Hampshire after elevating George W. Bush, and John McCain, who essentially believed in something much closer to amnesty.
- [17:12]
Tim Miller
Yeah, the immigration thing is, to me, I don't know, sometimes left people are like, you were hoodwinked or whatever. And I was asking McKinnon about this on the show last week, and I was like, I don't think so. There was a fight within the party. Right. But there was a genuine kind of patriotic strain. It was almost jingoistic, kind of like pro immigrant, because we're so great, kind of humanitarian, but also because the US Is so great. We want people who are fleeing communism, fleeing other countries to come here. And that, to me was like kind of my origin story. I, like, really bought all that and was moved by it. That's part of the reason why this switch has been so easy for me. What do you think? Going back to all that, you were there with Bush and both Bushes, I guess, how earnest was that, the more compassionate pro immigrant pitch in those days?
- [18:04]
Nicole Wallace
So it played out within the second Bush administration. So Bush goes to address the nation on comprehensive immigration reform in 05. And that speech had more drafts than that year's State of the Union address, which was the first year after his reelection. And I think that's a reflection of the tug of war even within the administration. And I spent enough time with Bush at that point. I was his communications director in the second term, and he had a very. I think he saw it the way you just articulated. Reagan is the last president to really do sweeping amnesty. And I think Bush saw immigrants as vitally important, totally persuadable. If he made. I think he believed he could make a case about conservatism to any immigrant family and try to win their hearts and minds. As a Texas governor, they weren't otherized to him. I mean, he saw them as part of the community, part of the faith community, part of the economy. Bush was never a fan of people having to return and then get in line because he knew that nobody would do that. Bush also had an extraordinary amount of comprehension and compassion for anyone who put their children on a bus or on a train or sent them to America for a better life. I mean, he thought that was in some ways, just this incredible statement about what America was to a mom or dad who wanted to send their kids to America for the American dream. So Bush saw immigration the way Reagan did, the way I think you and I see it, and was defeated and undermined by his own party in trying to do comprehensive immigration reform. And there was a way to do it with Democrats, but Cheney, having served in the ranks with the House Republicans, was not a fan of that. But Tony Snow was the White House press secretary. So I had the job of booking Bush, Cheney, and Tony Snow on conservative talk radio, which was the driver before the pirate podcast era. And I remember booking Tony, who I adored, and Bush and Chaney, on with Rush, on with Hannity, on with. I think Mark Levin. Levin was one of the people, the great one, and really trying to make the case. And I don't think they support. I don't think any of them really supported it, but they let us make the argument. And I think it was Bush's first window into how nativist and isolationist the party was becoming, even during his second term.
- [20:42]
Tim Miller
So what about you? Do you look back on that and feel like I should have seen it a little bit?
- [20:46]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, I mean, I did see it. I did see it. And I think the only Republican I worked for after that was McCain who saw it. It was the issue, I think, on which Bush and McCain agreed the most vociferously and agreed from this really deep how they saw America place. So I've never worked for anyone who was conflicted about this. I think McCain and Ken. Oh, this is what I was gonna say. So McCain and Kennedy saw comprehensive immigration reform the way Bush did. I mean, oddly, Rubio did for a minute also, but then became.
- [21:14]
Tim Miller
Do you look back at it? Are there. Are you conflicted about anything else? I mean, I was.
- [21:17]
Nicole Wallace
I'm conflicted about all of it. I mean, I'm conflicted about being part of Palin. I'm conflicted about Guantanamo.
- [21:23]
Tim Miller
And I was watching the Mauritanian this weekend, and I was like, oh, God. I mean, I don't know. That was a movie about one of the guys that was in Guantanamo. That may be wrong. I don't know. You'll never know.
- [21:32]
Nicole Wallace
But yeah, look, and I think that. I think just keeping your mouth shut and letting people who paid the ultimate price for the country because of the foreign policy decisions that Bush made is the path I've chosen. I mean, I've been on the air obviously the last week, and every bad comparison is a comparison back to the decisions made by my old boss in that region. So, yeah, I'm conflicted about all of it. I mean, if you don't get older and wiser and platform your own sort of internal regrets and things you do differently with twice as many years under your belt, there's something wrong with you.
- [22:15]
Tim Miller
Amen to that. I always think the stupidest criticism people have of me is like, you've broken your principle. You've changed. And I'm like, you haven't changed. We elected the stupidest person in the country president twice. It hasn't changed your view on anything. It doesn't seem to make you a.
- [22:30]
Nicole Wallace
Very deep thinker in that case, the idea that, that it is true that neither party is perfect. It is also true that only one party is trying to erode our democratic principles and norms. So anyone that makes an argument to me about principles, I'm like, what are you talking about? I mean, I never agreed with everything the Republican Party stood for either.
- [22:53]
Tim Miller
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- [24:24]
Nicole Wallace
So I was his first press secretary when he wins governor the first time, okay. And I went and interviewed for the job. I worked in California politics, and I knew a bunch of folks who'd worked for his dad. So that was my connection to his world after he wins. And I went out there and interviewed, and it was right after Lawton Chiles died. And, you know, Jeb, he's just always kind of walking around unstaffed and, like, taller than everybody. And so I went interviewed, taking questions.
- [24:50]
Tim Miller
From people, either strangers, journalists, whatever.
- [24:53]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. And I interviewed with his chief of staff, Sally Bradshaw, and his communications director, Corey Tilly. And they were amazing. And I have no idea to this day what they saw in me. But then Jeb, I guess, heard that I spoke Spanish and so came in and started talking to me in Spanish. And he felt like he really owed to the Cuban community in South Florida his victory, and so liked that I spoke Spanish and I got that job. I arrived in Tallahassee with a comforter in my suitcase and had to find a place to live. It was very intrepid when I look back. But because of the sunshine laws, the press secretary always has to travel with Jeb. So I went everywhere with him, and he played a lot of golf, and he played one day with Tiger woods, and so I went with Jeb. And Tiger woods had gone to Stanford and I'd gone to Berkeley, and so we like kind of like 6 degrees and the Nike commercial. He wasn't flirting. Tiger woods never flirted with me. But on his backswing, that Nike app is out that said, I am Tiger Woods. So he was, you know, isn't that the backswing? And I said, I am Tiger Woods. And Jeb looked at me like he wanted to fucking kill me. And Tiger woods started laughing. And I was like, see, that was funny. You're old. So that was my golfing with Jeb story. But you can see he was easy.
- [26:05]
Tim Miller
To get along with on the road, though, right?
- [26:06]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, he was easy. He's like Zero maintenance. The plane was so scary and old. I was always afraid I was gonna plunge to my death. And he just sort of like did his emails and he called his laptop his wooby and was always emailing back a constituent about something. And he was really easy, really low maintenance.
- [26:23]
Tim Miller
I love Jeb. He was so easy to hang out. It was so funny in private. I never like really couldn't translate it on the debate stage in private. Like that is just some people I hear Hillary's like that I've never gotten hang out with Hillary. There are others. The thing with Jeb that's funny that I think about in your context is he really, I think was kind of surprised by the direction of where everything was going. And so I got to kind of live it with him firsthand. Like first running and then seeing how crazy the magas had gotten. And like he's getting out because he'd been out of his kind of day to day politics and people are saying crazy shit to him all the time and he's like, look at me. And it's like, what are they even talking about? You know? And so he saw that change on the one hand and then he kind of saw your radicalization on the other hand. Because you did the Post interview with him and I remember the moment where you asked, you guys were talking about McCain and Palin or something and you're like, yeah, I didn't even vote for John McCain. And he. And he. And he was like, what? You didn't even vote for John McCain? And I just like the kind of extinction of the Jeb Republican. Like I got to live with him. And it's sad. And also it was kind of amusing at the same time.
- [27:27]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, so I spent a lot of time with their parents in 16. I went up to Kennebunkport.
- [27:33]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I got there too.
- [27:34]
Nicole Wallace
It was really nice, I think two or three times during the 16 campaign. And in some ways that was like a better lens for me because they'd become so close to the Clintons that I don't think they were as allergic to the idea of Democrats in 1516. And they might disagree with this. I've actually never talked to either of them about it, but I think that 41, especially because of his. I mean, well, you've been there, like it's all. He valued diplomacy as a principle and I think he valued his role as America's diplomat and president as much as anything that he was ever a part of. And so I think that I think they were able to get to Hillary Clinton in 16, a lot easier than, or at least George H.W. bush easier than Jeb or George W. And so I don't think he was as jolted by what had happened. And Barbara Bush was like, in some ways the most astute political observer in the whole family. I remember talking to her after 08, and she understood not just how challenging Palin was as a candidate, but what it meant that the party responded the way they did to Palin. So, yeah, I think as a family, they felt it all, and they felt a lot of. At least the 41s felt a lot of it. And I really was never able to draw Jeb out on how he felt about any of it, but I think the 41s felt a lot of it.
- [28:59]
Tim Miller
They were more feelings oriented. Jeb was more like his dad, really. And you get more feelings oriented as you get older. Barbara. And W. Is more like Barbara. I got to spend just a little bit of time with them both and the level of clear eyed they were about all of this. And I would only get to hear half the convo, but Jeb would call his dad a lot, like during the campaign, like from the car. And I didn't have to actually hear what was on the other side of the phone to get a sense from what 41 was saying about Trump and with the move into the party and so. And their political assessment of our viability was also right on. At least. At least Barbara's was.
- [29:35]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, look, their political assessment of our weakness in, oh, five. I mean, when I was George W. Bush's communications director, they consumed a lot more of the punditry and the press coverage than he did. And so we heard from them a lot. And they, they were brilliant political minds.
- [29:55]
Unknown Speaker
What is daddication?
- [29:56]
The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.
- [30:17]
That's. Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.
- [30:25]
Tim Miller
One more Republican thing. Then we'll stop with old Republican shit and do a little bit more business. The Mondale listeners of the podcast are getting bored with this hagiography.
- [30:38]
Nicole Wallace
I told you, there's only like 17 people who give a Shit about any of that.
- [30:42]
Tim Miller
Luckily they're but bored. Caught ass consumers for the most part. Part. Have you seen the story of Matt Gaetz's mom yelling at him?
- [30:47]
Nicole Wallace
No.
- [30:47]
Tim Miller
I was texting with your friend Sally Bradshaw. He mentioned earlier Jeb's old chief of staff about this this morning. So I do need to mention this. I was on. As I was mentioning last night, I was scrolling social media in bed, which I shouldn't be doing. This is what I do, though. Or after midnight if I can't sleep. I was on TikTok. Shouldn't be on TikTok.
- [31:03]
Nicole Wallace
I love TikTok. That's how old I am.
- [31:05]
Tim Miller
I mean, it's the Chinese and you shouldn't have it children. But also the Chinese have done a really great job. I mean, my algorithm just feeds me only things I care about. Like, they're very good. They've figured it out. And among the things I care about was there's this young woman who is on an airplane sitting behind Matt Gaetz, and she is videotaping him feverishly texting on his phone. And Matt Gates has admitted this is him already this morning. Then he has old man font on his phone. I don't know, he might need some bifocals. I recommend Williamson.
- [31:36]
Nicole Wallace
I scoop.
- [31:37]
Tim Miller
We have. Yeah. See his huge font and so you can see it all clearly. And Mrs. Gates is chastising him for what? For going against Trump on the war.
- [31:47]
Nicole Wallace
Wow.
- [31:47]
Tim Miller
And they're going back and forth, and she's like, you're gonna lose your job in the media. You're already out of Congress.
- [31:53]
Nicole Wallace
That's amazing.
- [31:54]
Tim Miller
Yeah. She's like, don't be criticizing the president or his actions. He's trying to keep us safe. MAGA will turn on you.
- [32:00]
Nicole Wallace
Wow.
- [32:00]
Tim Miller
And just the whole thing is a funny and also kind of sad encapsulation of, like, what we've all seen. Right. Like, I tweeted at Matt this morning. I was like, oh, you know, a Fox Watching family member is upset that you're not fully on board with Donald Trump. Like, welcome to the resistance. We've all been there. I don't know. We've all been like, how do you process all that?
- [32:22]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I mean, I think the intervention in the Middle east is a real thing. I mean, I think that Matt Gaetz speaks for probably more MAGA voters than his mother does. I didn't. I didn't think I'd ever find myself defending Mike Gaetz. But, I mean, I think that a lot of what turned off the base of the Republican Party at the end of the Bush era, and you and I both dealt with this in a political context, was support for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And so I think part of it is just voters found Trump really entertaining. They liked everything that offended a lot of the rest of us, but they also agreed with him on not getting involved in wars in the Middle East. And so this is the ultimate betrayal. This and making everything more expensive through his asinine trade war are the ultimate political betrayals.
- [33:12]
Tim Miller
It's kind of like the. What's the phrase? Like the immovable force, the unstoppable object or whatever it is. Immovable object, unstoppable force. One of them. And with the voters. Right, which is being demonstrated in this Gates family text where it's like, on the one hand it's just slavish cultishness, devotion to. And on the other hand it's this kind of the pure MAGA ID of oh, the old establishment Republicans did us wrong. And that kind of who wins that battle. That's real, I think totally.
- [33:42]
Nicole Wallace
And I think the sort of veil on top of all of it is the fear factor. And it ties the Murkowski stuff to the Gates mother stuff because they're so thuggish to their own. There is a real fear to either opposing Trump, even if it's to actually stick up for what Trump was originally about, or to criticize anything he does, even when it looks pretty boneheaded.
- [34:06]
Tim Miller
I'm sure you get this. What do you say to people who come to you and like, I'm guessing you get this as much as I do, which is like I listen to you because I've got MAGA family members and like you're, you're kind of a stand in for them as like a sane person who like I can disagree with on whatever certain policies sometimes. Like what do you say to like that, like how you deal with. With the cult side of it.
- [34:30]
Nicole Wallace
Look, I think you have to love your family no matter who they support and vote for. But I think you have to do.
- [34:35]
Tim Miller
Like a menagerie back there. We had, we had babies. Mike Schmidt walked through and is that how many animals? There's animals.
- [34:42]
Nicole Wallace
I have three vizs today, so I have two viz. Viz are nuts. They're baby gates. So they might make an appearance. And then I have a third. I have my ex husband's Vizsla who we're babysitting for the day. So I've got three little brown dogs. They're so cute.
- [34:55]
Tim Miller
They're Hungarian, right?
- [34:56]
Nicole Wallace
Vizla. They're Hungarian pointers. Yeah, they're so cute.
- [34:58]
Tim Miller
Little fascist dogs.
- [34:59]
Nicole Wallace
We joke with them about Orbon. They got out. They're 3, 4 and 10. And they're just. They're huge personalities. And so someone is probably. My son and Mike are probably leaving and so they're probably wailing. Yeah, there's a. I'm sorry, there's a lot of background.
- [35:12]
Tim Miller
No, it's great. Anyway, love you. People want Nicole Wallace unfiltered. They want to see what's happening in your life. You know, you have this love. I promise you there's a lot of love for you out there. I hear about it all the time. If I texted you every time somebody's like, nice, I hope she's doing okay, you'd stop responding to my text.
- [35:31]
Nicole Wallace
That's so nice. It's so nice.
- [35:32]
Tim Miller
So anyway, you said you got to love your family members, but.
- [35:35]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, so you got to love your family members, but I think you have to protect yourself from the gaslighting. And I think, like, this is the work for therapists, not cable news hosts. But I think that they have now been marinating. Look, like, I think it really started with the birth certificate, right? Like, if you're really maga, you've been along for a lot of the journey. And so it started with, like, the delusions about, you know, Obama and Eric Holder. And I remember doing Chris Wallace's show and I wrote a novel and he, he was such a sweet guy and he said to me, I was on because I'd written a novel and he let me join the, the Sunday show panel and I was going to get to plug my novel, but I had to sort of do news of the day with him. I said, sure, sure. And he said, you've been out for a while. We're going to talk about the Fast and the Furious. And I was like, what is that? This was. Was when it was sort of a right wing thing and hadn't really burst. You know, it becomes more of a mainstream political story and it becomes stuff that the Obama White House has to deal with. But this is early, early. And you think about all of the seasons, right, that MAGA voters have watched. It started with the birth certificate. It went through Fast and the Furious. It went through all of the lies they've been fed. So how I deal with it is that I don't deal with it. I don't talk politics. There's so much that Trump has politicized now that it's like it leaves you kind of talking about the weather and Family and stuff that has nothing to do with the world, but that's good.
- [37:07]
Tim Miller
NBA Finals, sports.
- [37:08]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, we deal with. But, you know, my team is pretty political, so they don't always love my. But no, I mean, really, it is. It's a lot.
- [37:16]
Tim Miller
Cause you're too. The warriors, right. The Kerr and.
- [37:20]
Nicole Wallace
But it's a lot of. It's a lot of sports. And I do have a piece where with my family, it's just politics and I love him to death and we just don't talk about it.
- [37:31]
Unknown Speaker
What is dedication?
- [37:32]
The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.
- [37:53]
That's dedication. Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.
- [38:02]
Tim Miller
All right. On therapist questions, since you mentioned this, this is maybe a job for your therapist. I remember we talked. We had a talk on set. I don't know, maybe around Christmas time. So it was after.
- [38:13]
Nicole Wallace
Right after the election. Yeah, it was before Christmas time.
- [38:15]
Tim Miller
It was around Thanksgiving, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty soon after. After. And I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I basically said to you, how are you going to do it? I don't know how I'm going to wake up and care about these fucking people every day. I hate them. They're horrible. I kind of want them to fail, but I don't want the country to fail. And how can I possibly bring myself to care about this if this was not my job? I would just totally turn off everything and start reading gay novels and just pretend like it doesn't exist. I swear to God, that's what I would do if I had a different. If my husband was independently wealthy or something. And I don't know, I've come around on it. But I guess I won't prejudice you with your answer. How did you process that challenge?
- [38:54]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I remember that conversation, and I think the hardest thing for me about his victory was that everything he was going to do that threatened the democracy was stuff he said he was going to do. So it's not like, oh, they didn't believe me with my warnings. They didn't believe him. And I thought that was such a mind fuck. He ran on retribution. He ran on charging Liz Cheney and Mark Milley with treason. He ran on turning the FBI and the DOJ inside out. He ran on putting people like Tulsi Gabbard in charge of national security. And so he ran on mass deportations. To me. He ran on the dehumanization of people in this country illegally and won. And so that felt like a blow to me. What I have found is that, and Alicia Menendez said this to me, just bear witness. What our viewers need us to do is bear witness. And I have found that that was the best advice I got. And then a lot of people reached out to me and said, what do we do? And I said, just take care of your people. Check on your people, you know, check on them every day in the beginning, people that you think are going to be really upset and then just try to see them more. And I feel like those two things are enough and it's really satisfying. And I actually find doing my job just holding up a mirror is easier than it was in Trump 1.0 because he's doing it all in the open. There would be stories that would break in the Times and the Post and we'd run through our standards department. And because it was the Times in the Post, we were always allowed to use them. But you were relying on what felt like really, my husband did a lot of that reporting. I mean, this is almost, and I'm not saying there isn't important reporting, but this is almost all out in the open. So we're holding up a mirror and saying this is what we're getting. And I find that as a cable host, the easiest kind of job. We're just like webcam covered. We're just showing what's happening. And then I think, as my colleague Rachel Maddow is showing, the reaction is really satisfying. Like showing that the American people in year one of a four year term are out in the streets in historic numbers is incredible. But it's, it's probably the second piece and that's where the conversation, you know, I think emanated from our conversation. It's, it's, you know, I find myself. Have you been like whitewater rafting? Like, where they tie all the rafts together? Like, I feel like we're in, we're like, we're on the rapids, but our rafts are all tied together. Like the food might fly out and one, one raft might tip over, but we're all tied together. So someone will come and get us. And so I do kind of feel like I'm on one of those, like, chartered whitewater rafting trips where we're all tied together and, like, it's bumpy, and we knew it was going to be bumpy, but we're all kind of in it together. Does that make sense?
- [41:53]
Tim Miller
It does. It's interesting you say all that because I want you. And it's like, it doesn't seem like you're mailing it in up there.
- [41:59]
Nicole Wallace
No, I'm not.
- [42:00]
Tim Miller
You're still feeling all the feelings and you're still doing it and showing everybody and passionate about it. And that is kind of a challenge in itself. There. There are people in media that are mailing it in.
- [42:09]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I love. So I also think, like, I had this. This real shift in my relationship with my viewers during COVID where I stayed home for a year and a half. My son stayed out of school for a year and a half. So it was like me in the basement into the camera to the viewers, and what they gave back to me was just. Was life changing. I mean, we celebrated a life well lived every day. Someone that died from COVID and I don't know, I just. I meet viewers of the show in the street all the time, and it makes my day when people say they watch. Maybe it's coming to these jobs as a second career that you don't feel like you're entitled to an audience. You don't feel like you're entitled to have these jobs, and so you feel more grateful for them. But I don't know if more is the right word. I feel completely inspired by having two hours to fill every day.
- [42:57]
Tim Miller
Well, you're booing me because it's been easier than I thought. I needed your little pep talk because I was worried about it.
- [43:02]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, don't you feel the same way?
- [43:05]
Tim Miller
No, I actually. I've ended up feeling the same way. I was in a pretty dark place when we had that conversation between the election and maybe two days after the inauguration. The inauguration was pretty hard for me. I think. I was on your show Inauguration day, and I'm like, lashing out. I'm like, why are we acting like this is normal? Like, what in the fuck is happening right now?
- [43:22]
Nicole Wallace
You and Michael Steele were like, why are we covering this?
- [43:25]
Tim Miller
Yeah, like, what is this?
- [43:26]
Nicole Wallace
Like, we're calling him sir?
- [43:27]
Tim Miller
We're, like, grading it. Like, we're figure skating judging it. And, like, the billionaires are there. Like, what is happening? So anyway, I was a little. But I have. I'm with you, I don't know. I've been very. It's awesome to hear from people. I love the audience. I love seeing. I love hearing from people. And. And it is fulfilling. It's been more fulfilling than I thought to just go out there and just say whatever you think.
- [43:48]
Nicole Wallace
My audience loves you, I think, because. Because you haven't sugarcoated the journey.
- [43:53]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Just feel like what I ended up saying to folks here was, I'm just going to care what I care about. About. I'm going to care about what I care about and talk to you about that. And so if there's stupid Trump stuff, and I'm not going to pretend to be outraged about it, you know, and we're going to be on a remote, and some days I'm going to be angry, and some days I'll be sad, and some days I'll be laughing and pointing and laughing, and we'll just do all of it. Let's just feel all the feelings.
- [44:13]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah.
- [44:16]
Tim Miller
All right. Let's do big picture Trump stuff. Then I'll let you go. What scares you the most?
- [44:20]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, everything. I mean, I remember the first day I read about the deportations to El Salvador of the alleged Trend Aragua members, for whom no evidence was ever presented that they had anything to do with Trend Aragua. And I remember saying to Mike, I wish I didn't feel so gutted, and I wish I could stop thinking about these guys being scared in El Salvador. And then I was somewhere. I was in Westchester. It's usually a baseball trip that has me. I don't know what I was doing, but we stopped to get somebody to eat, and I saw the paid ads that Homeland Security was doing in front of the deportees who were now prisoners at seacot. And I was gutted. And I think I'm sometimes scared by how much anguish I feel over how they're treating human beings. But I think that if you abandon the anguish, then you carry out horrible things against human beings. And so, I don't know, maybe that's just too circular and not very satisfying, but I'm scared about how much it bothers me that so many people are suffering. And I spent some time with folks close to former President Obama after the election, and I said, what's our guess on what happens? And they kind of said, look, it's not zero chance that it's catastrophic. It's far more likely that we kind of muddle through, but a lot of people are going to suffer. And I'm scared of all that suffering of Witnessing it, of doing it justice, of covering it responsibly. And I refuse to accept that there's a quorum that wants to see people suffer. I just refuse to accept that.
- [46:06]
Tim Miller
What's your level of alarm that I use the term pro democracy coalition and people are always like, oh, it could be the end of democracy. I get frustrated with that conversation because it's like, like you either have democracy or you don't, when it's much more nuanced than that. Like, what's your level of alarm that like, the whole system crumbles over the next three years?
- [46:28]
Nicole Wallace
Well, he's not suddenly totally competent, right? So he's not like, he's not like, good at any one thing. The military is still great. And so, you know, it appears that the military carried out a plan, executed a plan as it was written out. But he's lost more in court than I think probably like the last 10 presidents added together times two. I mean, I haven't done the math, but he's running up against a lot of things that are illegal. I try not to get ahead of the story in terms of where will we be in three and a half years? I've never covered his. I'm going to run for another term because you can't run for another term. And to do that, you're making all these assumptions that there's no more Constitution, there's no more courts. But my alarm in the moment is really around Republicans greenlighting anti Democratic practices. It's around Republicans green lighting the politicization of sdny. And I know we had to move on because so much has happened. But these were a bunch of Federalist Society lawyers up in SDNY that were bringing the Eric Adams case and the fact that Mel Bove and all These folks at DOJ ran out a bunch of conservatives and Mitch McConnell said nothing, whose whole reason for swallowing it with swallowing his pride and swallowing his integrity when it came to Trump was about remaking the judiciary. So he sits there silently when the Trump administration runs out, the kind of people that he's sort of had an affinity for through his entire career. So it's the silence of Republicans around the politicization of the rule of law and the indifference to due process and all the rhetoric around ignoring court rulings that I find the scariest.
- [48:17]
Tim Miller
That's good. That's not hair on fire. That's not what your opponents would say about you. That's right. I think that's inappropriately. It's like it could be very bad. There are a Lot of concerning warning signs and we'll be here to monitor how it plays out. That's a healthy way to deal with it, I think.
- [48:30]
Nicole Wallace
Well, what do you think?
- [48:31]
Tim Miller
That's what I think my answer to that question is. Like, I don't know, you tell me. And I mean, you being the audience, what percentage chance you think that it is that he tries to do another term or that he tries to end democracy? And I think that anyone he asks that question to, their answer is somewhere from like 1% to maybe the most TDS riddled people, say 80%. But if your answer is 1%, that's still very bad and we're in a very bad place. The answer isn't zero. Where it's been for our entire parents lives and our lives. And that's alarming to me. And I think that you can be alarmed and be vigilant without being hysterical.
- [49:13]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. And look, I mean, I think, I think in defense of the people who are hysterical and alarmed, nothing has held right. Like he was impeached twice and never came.
- [49:22]
Tim Miller
The most hysterical people have definitely been more right than the most sanguine people.
- [49:27]
Nicole Wallace
Correct. And this is why when people trash the left, like the left's been right about most things. When it comes to Trump, his biggest.
- [49:35]
Tim Miller
Political weakness, you think is his incompetence. Like the biggest vulnerability.
- [49:39]
Nicole Wallace
Trump's biggest political weakness is his indifference to the cost of things. Cuz there are a ton of voters who voted for him out of economic anxiety.
- [49:48]
Tim Miller
Yeah. All right, you've got a new pod. I want to hear about that. And then I have one final special rapid fire question. So the new pod, why are you doing it? You're busy enough, you've got two kids now, you're doing baseball tournaments, you're doing weekend anchoring. Two hours, you're like, I need something else. I want to beat Tim Miller in the podcast rankings. What's the motivation for this?
- [50:08]
Nicole Wallace
Someone said to me, get off my lawn. I wanted to do more. When he walked, I went to. Rashida was still the president of MSNBC and I wanted to do more. I think Rachel had the same instinct. She went out and anchored the first hundred days. I wanted to do more. Nobody that I work for or with thought a third hour was a good idea. I don't know how Joe and Mika do it, but they have like a village and it's different when it's one hour. So I also, I'm happy they didn't.
- [50:36]
Tim Miller
Give you a third hour. That would have been more time for more obligations for Me, you would have.
- [50:40]
Nicole Wallace
You would have spent a lot more time on television. I also, I take the note that the media, I mean, Megan Kelly talked about this in an interview with the New York Times. I think she's right. Like, this is how people, people want to hear the news from you and they don't want it separated from your opinions. And you do a better newscast than I do in terms of really like singling or paring it down to things that, you know, your audience cares about, giving them the news and the context. And I think I wanted to be in the space without trying to replicate what I do on the show. And then I actually think the Best People was Trump's best brand. I think in 16, the way he wins the first time is by acknowledging that people might not be totally comfortable with a guy who's never done anything in politics. And so he promises his base, I'll bring in the best people. And then he kind of sort of does it with Mattis and Millie Reince.
- [51:35]
Tim Miller
Doesn'T count, but, you know, somewhat a happy half.
- [51:39]
Nicole Wallace
But, but, but to his supporters, they look like Mattis looks like he's at essential casting. And the people that he brings in, he can at least sell it to half the country that they're the best people. And I think when he picked Matt Gaetz, he had clearly abandoned the brand. And I thought that was the most, like, to me, the most amazing thing about tapping Matt Gaetz wasn't that he was investigated, right, for child sex trafficking or that he had sent like so many videos of himself having sex around on his pH. Mullen was like, yeah, he took. They could talk about how he. I mean, I don't even want to say it's not because I'm a prude, but because it's just disgusting mental images. But the whole idea that the best people have been abandoned and we know the best people, right? And the people you talk to, they're the people I get to talk to. So I wanted to sort of reappropriate the brand, the Best People, and then bring some of the wisdom that I get from people that maybe don't want to come on the show, don't want to be embroiled in the daily news cycle, in the public podcast.
- [52:41]
Tim Miller
That's been cool. I was listening to Doc Rivers this morning.
- [52:44]
Nicole Wallace
He's so cool.
- [52:45]
Tim Miller
I got to get his digits from you.
- [52:46]
Nicole Wallace
He's so cool.
- [52:47]
Tim Miller
I'm glad you mentioned the short lived Matt Gaetz nomination. I don't think that anybody, not that we were looking forward to Matt Gaetz being Attorney General, we weren't, but the concept of him as a nomination was something that we aligned on as bringing us a little bit of joy during the interrection.
- [53:02]
Nicole Wallace
But you look at Pam, Bonnie, in hindsight, I'm not sure he would have been worse.
- [53:06]
Tim Miller
Oh, no way. Clearly wouldn't have been. Yeah, I'm with you. It's like the Cash situation. It's like, actually, the most incompetent people are a better bet for us because they don't know, you know, they don't know their way around. You know, it's a little harder for them to do jobs. Yeah, yeah. Cash Patel, year three is alarming. Now we're back to the what's the scariest question? Nicole? All right, final thing. Mount Rushmore. I like to ask people to give us a Mount Rushmore. You get the Mount Rushmore of Deadline White House guests.
- [53:33]
Nicole Wallace
Who are my guests? Who do I put on that?
- [53:35]
Tim Miller
Yeah, which. Which of your guests would you put on the Mount Rushmore of your guests?
- [53:40]
Nicole Wallace
You tell me who they are. You watch my show every day. You're on it.
- [53:43]
Tim Miller
Well, I'm putting you on the screen.
- [53:44]
Nicole Wallace
You're on it. Meek Lud is on it.
- [53:47]
Tim Miller
Claire.
- [53:48]
Nicole Wallace
Claire is on it. And Andrew Weissman.
- [53:51]
Tim Miller
There you go. Ouch. That is. There are some people that are hardest hit right there. We're not going to name them, but I will be sending them this clip.
- [53:58]
Nicole Wallace
Well, no, but I would just say that the show is built around John.
- [54:02]
Tim Miller
Heilman didn't make it, for example.
- [54:04]
Nicole Wallace
John Heilman is too busy for me a lot of days. But you never say no. Clara never says no. Eddie Gladd never says. And Andrew Weissman never says no, no matter where you guys are. No. Heilman is a media empire in his own right. He doesn't need to be on the deadline White House.
- [54:18]
Tim Miller
I'm just saying some. Some people hardest up there. I'm just gonna leave it at that. I am saying no to you. Actually, I'm going on vacation. A real vacation. Oh, it's not. So I'm not doing any deadline White House from Madrid.
- [54:29]
Nicole Wallace
Say no.
- [54:30]
Tim Miller
Saying no. One week. You're gonna have to survive one week without me.
- [54:33]
Nicole Wallace
We will be here when you get back. I mean, the thing, I think Deadline White House is like, like that sports bar that has to have, like, a good turkey burger and a real salad and be open every night. Like, we'll be there. We'll be here when you get back.
- [54:45]
Tim Miller
I look forward to being back. I really appreciate you always having me on. It's a delight. This has been a great joy of this horrible era, is getting to know you, and I appreciate you doing the pod.
- [54:54]
Nicole Wallace
I love you so much. Thank you so much for having me on the pod.
- [54:57]
Tim Miller
All right, we'll see you, Nicole. Give my love to the kiddos.
- [54:59]
Nicole Wallace
Sorry they were so loud.
- [55:01]
Tim Miller
I don't know. Maybe in a couple hours. Probably. I don't know. Whatever. Question. Where he tells me Exactly. That's Nicole Wallace. We'll be back here tomorrow with another one of my favorite guests. Not as good as Nicole, but he'll be pretty good. So we'll see you all then. Peace.
- [55:13]
Unknown Speaker
It's time to move on it's time to get going what lies ahead I have nowhere to know but under my feet Baby grass is growing it's time to move on Time to get going Broken the skyline Moving through the airport she's an honest defector Conscientious objector Now her own projector yeah Broken skyline which way to love land? Which way to something better? Which way to forgiveness? Which way do I go? It's time to move on Time to get going what lies ahead I have no way of knowing but under my feet Baby grass is growing it's time to move on Time to get going Sometime later Getting the words wrong Wasting the meaning and losing the rhyme Nauseous adrenaline Breaking up a dog fight Like a deer in the headlights Frozen in real time I'm losing my mind.
- [56:47]
Nicole Wallace
It'S.
- [56:48]
Unknown Speaker
Time to move on Time to get going what lies ahead I have no way of knowing but under my feet Baby grass is growing Time to get going.
- [57:12]
Tim Miller
The Bullard podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.