The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: Patrick Gaspard: A White House Screamathon
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Patrick Gaspard (former Obama political director, ex-Ambassador to South Africa, advisor to NYC Mayor-elect Zoran Mamdani)
Episode Overview
This episode features Tim Miller in conversation with Patrick Gaspard, delving into a range of current political topics with characteristic candor and wit. The prime focus is President Trump's recent Oval Office address—described as a "White House screamathon"—and its implications for both his political appeal and the broader American psyche. The discussion extends to Democratic and left strategy—especially as interpreted through Zoran Mamdani's New York mayoral victory—the challenges around coalition-building, the politics of foreign policy and authoritarianism, as well as the urgent necessity for empathy and creative thinking in U.S. democracy. Along the way, Gaspard shares memorable anecdotes, sharp critiques, and moments of optimism.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Family Nicknames and Opening Banter
- Miller reveals Gaspard’s daughter refers to him as "Elf on the Shelf" after seeing him on MSNBC in a sweater (01:18–02:34).
- Sets a warm, self-deprecating tone before diving into politics.
2. Dissecting Trump’s Oval Office "Screamathon"
- Trump’s Address Recap: Miller opens with a scathing recap of Trump's Oval Office address: "It kind of felt like a Sarasota mall Santa screaming about Joe Biden. The teleprompter was moving very fast..." (02:34)
- Lack of Policy, Tone, and Charisma: Both remark on the address’s lack of substantive policy and Trump’s now humorless, harsh delivery (03:22–04:32).
- Gaspard: “Even when he said Merry Christmas and Happy New Year at the very end, it sounded like he was putting a curse on us.” (04:00)
- Trump’s Waning Populist Touch: Gaspard observes that Trump’s disconnect is more apparent now to casual viewers: “There was something about how a mask came off last night for people who don’t pay as much attention as you and I.” (04:45)
- The Normality Problem: Miller and Gaspard highlight that Trump is struggling with a “normal” problem—Americans are dissatisfied with the economy and are unconvinced by gaslighting about “greatness” (05:05–06:17).
3. Lessons from the Obama Recovery and Contrasts with Trump’s Approach
- Empathy and Acknowledgement: Gaspard recalls Obama’s strategy during economic distress: acknowledge pain, express empathy, and be “proximate to their experiences” rather than dismissing voters’ struggles (09:22–11:30).
- Notable quote: “I have never been one of those people who believe that the customer is always right, but I do believe that the customer needs to be heard.” (09:40)
- Obama’s Discipline vs. Trump’s Gaslighting: Where Obama avoided “spiking the football,” Trump is doing the opposite, leading to alienation.
4. Foreign Policy, Authoritarianism, and America First
- Trump’s Hawkish Rhetoric: Miller and Gaspard discuss Trump’s increasingly aggressive foreign policy threats (especially towards Venezuela) and reliance on foreign autocrats as validators (13:08–16:12).
- America First and the MAGA Base: Both express skepticism that Trump’s supporters will embrace foreign adventurism; they voted for less war, not more (16:10–18:11).
- Disorientation among Voters: Gaspard notes many “normal” Americans feel confused and disturbed by the cruelty of recent policies—on immigration, especially—versus expectations for pragmatic economic improvement (18:19–19:48).
5. Who’s Really in Charge? Trump’s Surrogates and Whiplash Policymaking
- Gaspard suggests Trump is increasingly out of the loop and delegating to figures like Stephen Miller and Pete Hegseth: “He exudes all of this, the buck stops with me machismo, but he doesn’t seem very much in charge of anything” (19:50–21:04).
6. Personal Reflections on Robert Kennedy Jr.
- Gaspard shares a moving personal story about working with RFK Jr. on environmental issues, and his sorrow at seeing Kennedy become "unrecognizable" given his current trajectory (22:38–24:40).
7. The Zoran Mamdani Victory: Lessons for Democrats
- Authenticity and Messaging: Gaspard attributes Mamdani’s success to his comfort in his own skin, clarity, and focus on affordability (26:40–29:04).
- Quote: "The one thing you cannot impart on anybody in politics is comfort in their own skin. Zoran Mamdani is comfortable being Zoran Mamdani." (26:54)
- Coalition-Building: He stresses the ability to reach out across divides, learning by talking directly with dissenters, including Trump voters (34:42–37:14).
- Tested Politics vs. Social Media Fights: Gaspard criticizes Democratic insularity and the preference of “spinning out their white papers” over “knocking on a door in West Virginia.” (34:42)
- Quote: “There are too many people who are…fighting on social media…and not a single one…is going and knocking on a door in West Virginia.” (34:50)
8. The Israel-Gaza Controversy and Political Morality
- Navigating Complex Issues: Miller and Gaspard discuss Mamdani’s position on Gaza, the political utility of “moral clarity”, and the dangers of being scapegoated for imprecise answers (40:09–43:12).
- Gaspard compares it to Obama’s position on Iraq in 2007-08: “Absolute clarity on an issue can be the permission structure that voters need to hear you on anything else.” (41:15)
- He criticizes Democrats for seizing on misstatements rather than policy substance (43:15).
9. Democratic Party Strategy and the Need for New Thinking
- Both agree the Democratic Party has been too “inside the box” since Obama’s victory, with too little experimentation and too much focus on intra-party fights (49:17–51:42).
- Miller notes: “What is needed right now is, like you’re saying, go listen to people, go out and talk. See what is resonating…” (49:17)
- Gaspard on primaries and innovation: “Let the flowers bloom…The voters are going to decide who they think is the best, the strongest candidate…” (52:20)
10. Authoritarianism, Immigration, and the Crisis of Empathy
- Personal Stakes: Gaspard reflects on how his immigrant background and family history of fleeing authoritarianism makes Trump-era behavior especially chilling (54:10–55:22).
- “When I come on shows like this now, [my relatives] immediately send me texts…You have to be careful. This is frightening. Because those are people who grew up under authoritarianism and they know it when they see it.” (54:23)
- Fear in Immigrant Communities: Miller and Gaspard discuss the real-life terror immigrants feel under current policies, emphasizing both the cruelty to newcomers and the coarsening effect on all Americans (55:22–57:23).
- Gaspard: “There’s something denigrating and degrading about what Trump is saying about the humanity of his very voters…” (57:23)
11. Foreign Aid, Global South, and Rebuilding Trust
- Repairing What Was Lost: Gaspard, reflecting on Africa and PEPFAR, rejects resignation and calls for storytelling and coalition-building with unlikely partners, including conservatives: “If we can figure out a way to make common cause…we can fix this stuff.” (60:12–62:29)
- Humility and Partnership: He embraces the need for Democrats to rethink their approach when rebuilding aid structures and relationships (62:30–63:33).
12. Possible Roads Forward: Engagement, Defectors, and Existential Stakes
- Welcoming “Defectors”: Gaspard defends engaging with unlikely allies—including critics and conservatives like Ben Shapiro—when standing up for democratic principles (65:24–67:23).
- Quote: “If we really do believe that there’s an existential threat to our democracy, we got to look for defectors. We’ve got to be willing to be in conversation with people who perhaps can be persuaded toward their better selves.” (65:37)
- Moment of Crisis: Both agree the current threats are existential, requiring openness, empathy, and a willingness to break old paradigms (67:23–68:37).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Trump’s Speech:
- “Even when he said Merry Christmas and Happy New Year at the very end, it sounded like he was putting a curse on us." —Patrick Gaspard (04:00)
- “The mask came off last night for people who don’t pay as much attention as you and I do.” —Patrick Gaspard (04:45)
- On Obama vs. Trump Recovery Messaging:
- “The customer needs to be heard.” —Patrick Gaspard (09:40)
- “Last night, Donald Trump said, ‘Y’all are crazy.’ ” —Patrick Gaspard (11:53)
- On Zoran Mamdani:
- “He is comfortable being Zoran Mamdani.” —Patrick Gaspard (26:54)
- “He never swerves from, like, the core that animates him—and that is his superpower.” —Patrick Gaspard (27:12)
- On Democratic Strategy:
- “There are too many people spinning out their white papers…and not a single one is going and knocking on a door in West Virginia, which is the only way you’re actually going to figure out what the sweet spot is…” —Patrick Gaspard (34:55)
- On Political Labels:
- “Both Donald Trump and Zoran Mamdani understand…this is not necessarily a left versus right moment, but an outsider versus insider moment.” —Patrick Gaspard (32:50)
- On Engaging with Allies and Opponents:
- “If we really do believe that there’s an existential threat to our democracy, we got to look for defectors.” —Patrick Gaspard (65:37)
- Personal Stakes for Immigrant Families:
- “[My relatives] send me texts…You can’t do this. You have to be careful. This is frightening. Because those are people who grew up under authoritarianism and they know it when they see it.” —Patrick Gaspard (54:23)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:18 – Patrick Gaspard joins; "Elf on the Shelf" family nickname story
- 02:34 – Initial reaction to Trump’s Oval Office address
- 03:22–06:17 – “Screamathon” speech, Trump’s lost humor, policy analysis
- 09:22–11:30 – Obama’s empathy vs. Trump’s gaslighting
- 13:08–18:19 – Trump’s foreign policy, "steal the oil", Venezuela, MAGA shift
- 22:38–24:40 – Gaspard on RFK Jr., environmental activism, and disappointment
- 26:40–29:04 – Zoran Mamdani: authenticity and winning strategy
- 34:42–37:39 – Coalition-building, grassroots listening, and media strategy
- 40:09–43:15 – Gaza question, moral clarity’s role, pitfalls of political attacks
- 49:17–51:42 – Democrats stuck “inside the box”, innovation needed
- 54:10–57:23 – Immigration, authoritarianism, and real-life fear in communities
- 60:12–63:33 – The challenge and hope of rebuilding US foreign aid/alliances
- 65:24–68:48 – Engaging “defectors”, existential stakes, and open coalition-building
Final Reflections
Patrick Gaspard and Tim Miller wrap with an acknowledgment of the unprecedented stakes for American democracy, the need for humility and openness from all sides, and a call for relentless empathy and creative political engagement in the years ahead. Both agree that listening, actionable empathy, and moving beyond traditional tribal wars are the essential requirements for progress in 2026 and beyond.
Sign-off:
“Some of us blew it. I kind of myself as one who got it wrong in those periods when Democrats were in power and we thought we didn’t have to have the conversation even about these issues and we should have been debating them in a robust way.” —Patrick Gaspard (63:33)
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