Podcast Summary: "Project 2025 Is Coming Back To Bite Trump"

The Bulwark Podcast – December 2, 2025
Host: Tim Miller | Guest: Amanda Carpenter (Protect Democracy, former Bulwark)

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the escalating political and legal consequences of Donald Trump’s Project 2025 agenda after his return to office. Tim Miller and Amanda Carpenter discuss the fallout from the implementation of extreme policies, the bipartisan reaction against military overreach in Venezuela, the importance of making authoritarian policies unpopular, and concrete action defending democracy at the local level. The conversation offers a blend of expert commentary, candid banter, and strategic advice for resisting illiberalism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of American Democracy & Project 2025

• Scorecard on Democracy:
  Amanda assesses the landscape using a mental matrix that evaluates military deployments, misuse of justice, suppression of dissent, and media attacks.
  "There's never, like, yes, it's going great, or we're at this part on the map kind of answer." (03:14, Amanda)

• Reasons for Optimism:
  Trump's policies remain broadly unpopular (approval at 36%), and recent elections have re-energized democratic norms.

  "The key to defeating authoritarian... policies is to make them unpopular so that they are unable to entrench themselves and their faction in power." (03:27, Amanda)

• Project 2025 Plan Faltering:
  The administration had a detailed plan for year one, but visible failures and lack of a follow-up strategy are stalling it.

  "It is my hope and dream that year two is the year that accountability starts." (04:08, Amanda)

• Military Oversight as a Key Front:
  Amanda highlights the danger from unchecked military deployments—particularly abroad—and sees bipartisan Congressional interest growing for oversight and accountability.

2. Venezuela "Double Tap" Boat Strike Controversy

• Background:
  Discussion around an incident where a second bomb ("double tap strike") was used on survivors after a first U.S. strike in the Caribbean, reportedly to target Venezuelan "narco-terrorists."

• Shifting Blame:
  White House initially denied the strike was ordered by Pete Hegseth (Secretary of War), then suggested Navy Adm. Mitch Bradley was responsible.

  "It is like, okay, I support him, but he did it. So anyway, that is where we stand in quite a turnabout..." (10:01, Tim)

• Lack of Oversight and Transparency:
  Amanda points out unilateral military action with Congressional oversight circumvented, lack of evidence, and blurred legal justifications.

  "They're all doing it unilaterally with no oversight from Congress, no buy in, no anything whatsoever." (11:49, Amanda)

• Underlying Motive: Regime Change in Venezuela:
  Trump's larger aim is regime change, intimidation operations, and possibly securing a destination for deportees and oil deals.

• Bipartisan Pushback:
  Senators like Tim Kaine, Rand Paul, Lisa Murkowski, and Democrats collectively advocate for War Powers legislation to curb unauthorized deployments. (14:25)

3. Media and Public Reaction

• Megyn Kelly’s Extreme Rhetoric:
  A disturbing moment where Kelly expresses a wish to see alleged drug traffickers tortured.

  "I would like Trump and Hegseth to make it last a long time so that they lose a limb and bleed out a little." (19:05, Megyn Kelly)

  Tim and Amanda condemn this as depraved and hypocritical, especially given the lack of any evidence about the victims' identities.

  "We don't even know who these guys are. How can you have sympathy or not have sympathy for them?" (19:43, Tim) "Who says something like that? ... You want to watch them suffer and bleed out and make it last a long time and lose limbs." (20:23, Amanda)

• Treason Accusations Against Critics:
  After Democratic senators release a video urging soldiers to resist illegal orders, Trump accuses them of treason. Mark Kelly faces Pentagon and FBI scrutiny for his criticisms.

  "He is a retired member of the military, expressing his free speech rights as a duly elected senator... now he has the Pentagon investigating him..." (24:08, Amanda)

• Pete Hegseth’s History:
  Hegseth’s long record of defending alleged war criminals and disregarding military legal norms is highlighted as a warning sign. (26:06–27:02)

4. Lessons from Local Resistance & Activism

• Case Study: Chicago & ICE/CBP Actions
  Amanda details how collective, peaceful, cross-community street activism and vigilant documentation were instrumental in defending immigrant communities and pushing back against federal overreach:

  "There was a broad based coalition literally in the streets... members of the faith community... regular activists who were there in solidarity 24/7..." (31:28, Amanda)

• Blueprint for Resistance:

  • Pre-bunk federal rationales for invasion.
  • Publicly reject federal “help” unless wanted.
  • Maintain peace.
  • Document everything with cameras and witnesses.
  • Mobilize the community, including retirees and unlikely allies.

  "Nobody is your enemy or your adversary if you are fighting against this kind of action." (33:07, Amanda)

5. Election Security & Military Politicization

• Redistricting Battles & Threats:
  Indiana’s controversial redistricting fight triggers threats and swatting of Republican legislators who resist the White House’s wishes. (39:12)

• Warning About Militarization in Elections:
  Amanda warns the greatest danger is Trump’s willingness to use the National Guard, DHS, ICE, and military as tools to intimidate, undercut elections, and claim fraud.

  "If he has the military on his side, those threats become exponentially harder to surmount... it remains absolutely essential that we break that link..." (40:43, Amanda)

• Protect Democracy’s “Not the Mission” Campaign:
  An educational drive, with billboards and events, aimed at separating genuine support for the military from support for its political misuse.

  "What this campaign is aimed at is people who support the military, love the military, are patriotic, but don't want to see them unnecessarily used." (41:36, Amanda)

• Political Strategy
  Tim and Amanda agree on the value of reclaiming patriotism and national pride from the far-right, using it for pro-democracy messaging. (43:32)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Unpopularity as a Defense:

  "The best fight against the authoritarian threat is making their populist policies unpopular."
  — Tim Miller (06:07)

• On the Lack of a Year Two Project 2025 Plan:

  "They had a plan for year one of Trump 2.0... it's not turning out well for them, and I don't think they have a plan for year two."
  — Amanda Carpenter (03:41)

• On Kelly’s Rhetoric:

  "It is so depraved to have these torture fantasies about essentially anonymous Venezuelans."
  — Tim Miller (19:43)

• On Military Oversight:

  "Stopping these unlawful deployments and types of military and federal action is absolutely essential when it comes to election protection and the future of our democracy."
  — Amanda Carpenter (04:45)

• On Local Resistance:

  "Your cameras are your best friends... you can't go to court, you can't win... unless you have people there watching, standing their ground and recording."
  — Amanda Carpenter (32:46)

• On Reclaiming Patriotism:

  "It is not the National Guard troops fault that they were sent on these terrible missions."
  — Tim Miller (43:32)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:14–05:49 — Amanda’s "scorecard" assessment, reasons for democracy optimism, Project 2025 year-two chaos
• 06:38–07:43 — Project 2025's strategic and branding failures
• 09:48–14:25 — Deep dive into the Venezuela boat strike, administrative blame-shifting, calls for war powers oversight
• 18:11–22:26 — Rand Paul’s libertarian reaction, Megyn Kelly’s incendiary comments, debate over due process
• 23:41–27:02 — Treason accusations against senators, Pentagon/FBI probes, Pete Hegseth’s background
• 30:57–35:11 — Chicago ICE/CBP resistance case study, blueprint for activism, importance of documentation
• 39:12–40:34 — The Indiana redistricting and threat spike
• 40:43–43:32 — Military politicization threats to elections, "Not the Mission" campaign

Takeaways & Actionable Advice

• Making Authoritarianism Unpopular:
  Continues to be the most effective defense, alongside legal challenges and oversight.

• Document & Mobilize Locally:
  Peaceful, broadly inclusive activism and documentation are critical to holding federal agencies accountable.

• Reasserting Democratic Values:
  Both symbolic actions (like taking back patriotic rhetoric) and structural reforms (Congressional oversight, legal action) are vital.

Summary prepared for listeners who missed the episode: this conversation is equal parts warning, strategy guide, and morale boost for defenders of liberal democracy in the face of Trump-era authoritarian policies. The discussion dives into real-world consequences—from Venezuela to Indiana to the streets of Chicago—emphasizing oversight, community action, and reclaiming the pro-democracy narrative.