The Bulwark Podcast: Rick Wilson and David Brooks Discuss "MAGA to the Max"

Hosts: Tim Miller
Guests: Rick Wilson, David Brooks
Episode Title: "Rick Wilson and David Brooks: MAGA to the Max"
Podcast Description: Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday, they provide insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy, and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS, accompanied by a few laughs to help digest the chaos.

1. Trump's Controversial Appointments: An Alarming Trend

Tim Miller opens the discussion by addressing recent developments in Trump's administration appointments, specifically focusing on Matt Gaetz's nomination for Attorney General and Tulsi Gabbard's nomination for Director of National Intelligence (DNI). He expresses concern over the qualifications and potential impacts of these appointments.

Rick Wilson offers a scathing critique of Matt Gaetz, highlighting his troubled past and questionable character:

"Matt could not pass the security clearance to run a Waffle House. Which is why Trump is about to make him the chief law enforcement officer of the United States of America, most likely in a recess appointment because he cannot be appointed appropriately even in the compliant Senate that Trump will have."
(03:09)

Wilson underscores Gaetz's problematic history, including DUIs and involvement in unethical activities, suggesting that his confirmation is unlikely and that his appointment could lead to increased chaos and persecution of Trump's foes.

Tim Miller raises concerns about Tulsi Gabbard, describing her as a "wild card" whose qualifications are questionable for leading the intelligence community. Wilson agrees, emphasizing the potential dangers of such appointments:

"There are a lot of people in the intelligence world who are deeply concerned about her."
(17:26)

2. The Republican Establishment's Struggle with Trump's Influence

The conversation delves into how Trump's influence is reshaping the Republican establishment. Tim Miller points out that many traditional Republican leaders, like Lisa Murkowski and John Thune, may not stand a chance against Trump's favored candidates. Wilson concurs, predicting that many Trump-endorsed nominees will either fail confirmation or be appointed through recess appointments, leading to further instability.

Wilson articulates the depth of the issue:

"Matt's a bad guy. ... And even Matt will have trouble getting through the Senate."
(07:13)

He further criticizes other nominees like Pete Hegseth, labeling him a "lightweight" unfit for his proposed role:

"He has never managed anything bigger than an army platoon... And I think he's going to have trouble getting confirmed."
(07:18)

3. Potential Consequences of Trump’s Nominations

Tim and Wilson explore the broader implications of these appointments. They discuss the possibility of Trump using recess appointments to bypass Senate opposition, thereby installing nominees who may undermine democratic institutions and exacerbate divisions within the country.

Wilson warns of Gaetz's potential for creating "chaos, causing trouble, causing pain" within the justice system, aligning with Trump's desire for revenge against perceived enemies.

"Matt is a very bright guy. Sociopathic, I would argue... He understands Trump's psychology very well."
(10:53)

4. David Brooks on the Ivy League and American Divides

Transitioning to a different yet related topic, David Brooks, a columnist for The New York Times and contributor to the Atlantic, joins the conversation. He discusses his article, "How the Ivy League Broke America," which critiques the role of elite universities in exacerbating societal divisions.

Brooks argues that the Ivy League and similar institutions have created a "caste society," where social and economic divides are deepened by the concentration of top-tier education among a select few. He emphasizes that:

"Intelligence is not that important. What matters is are you curious? Do you have drive? Are you good at teams?"
(39:04)

He advocates for a broader definition of meritocracy that includes non-cognitive traits such as curiosity, kindness, and teamwork, rather than solely focusing on standardized testing and academic performance.

5. Proposals for Reforming the Education System

Brooks proposes several reforms to address the issues stemming from the current meritocratic system dominated by elite universities:

• Project-Based Learning: Implementing educational models that emphasize teamwork, problem-solving, and practical projects over standardized tests.
• Opportunity Pluralism: Creating multiple "mountaintops" in society with diverse educational institutions catering to different strengths and talents.
• Expanding University Access: Encouraging elite universities to accept significantly more students, thereby reducing exclusivity and promoting diversity.

"There should be a lot of different kinds of colleges doing a lot of different things."
(40:37)

6. The Intersection of Political Ideology and Education

Tim Miller and David Brooks discuss how political ideologies influence the perception and functioning of meritocracy. While some on the right advocate for a stricter meritocratic system based solely on cognitive abilities, Brooks counters that a more nuanced approach considering broader definitions of ability is necessary for a fair and functional society.

"We're trapped in a system that was designed 70 years ago... It's a mistake to judge people by static traits rather than nurturing developing abilities."
(47:12)

7. The Future of America's Political and Educational Landscape

Both hosts express concerns about the future trajectory of the United States under Trump's influence and the existing education system's role in perpetuating societal divides. Brooks remains cautiously optimistic, believing that systemic changes are possible, especially with external pressures like Supreme Court decisions and the advent of AI altering educational and professional landscapes.

"The universities have a strong incentive to change... AI is here."
(53:00)

Conclusion: Navigating Uncertainty

The episode concludes with reflections on the precarious state of American politics and education. Tim Miller emphasizes the need for vigilance and proactive measures to address the challenges posed by Trump's appointments and the flawed meritocratic system perpetuated by elite universities. David Brooks reiterates his belief in the potential for meaningful reform, urging institutions to adapt and prioritize a broader set of abilities in their evaluation processes.

Notable Quotes:

• Rick Wilson on Matt Gaetz:

  "Matt could not pass the security clearance to run a Waffle House... Matt's a bad guy."
  (03:09)

• David Brooks on Meritocracy:

  "Intelligence is not that important. What matters is are you curious? Do you have drive? Are you good at teams?"
  (39:04)

• Rick Wilson on Pete Hegseth:

  "He has never managed anything bigger than an army platoon... And I think he's going to have trouble getting confirmed."
  (07:18)

• David Brooks on Education Reform:

  "There should be a lot of different kinds of colleges doing a lot of different things."
  (40:37)

This episode provides a critical examination of the current political appointments under Trump and the systemic issues within America's education system. Through insightful dialogue, Tim Miller, Rick Wilson, and David Brooks shed light on the challenges facing liberal democracy and the importance of redefining meritocracy to foster a more equitable society.