Rick Wilson: The Shamelessness of MAGA

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast — Rick Wilson: The Shamelessness of MAGA
Episode Date: February 17, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Rick Wilson

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Episode Overview

In this lively Mardi Gras edition of The Bulwark Podcast, Tim Miller and Rick Wilson, co-founder of the Lincoln Project and author of the Against All Enemies Substack, drill into the current state of MAGA shamelessness, Republican hypocrisy, and the evolving fight for liberal democracy. The duo dissect recent Republican antics, the chilling crackdown on free speech, administrative cronyism, and public health consequences under Trump and RFK Jr., while providing sharp, often hilarious, commentary on Democratic responses and electoral prospects in 2026.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Marco Rubio’s Fall from Grace and Foreign Policy Hypocrisy

[01:57 – 04:04]

• Rick Wilson recounts his earlier support for Marco Rubio, saying “he has fallen the furthest and has given up everything he ever claimed to believe in.”
• Rubio’s recent tour in Europe, including a rally for Viktor Orbán (Hungary) and time spent with Slovakia’s Robert Fico, is painted as a descent into illiberal alignment.
• “There is no bottom for Marco in his ambition to become president after Trump is gone.” (Rick Wilson, [03:21])
• Trump’s enabling of Putin and antagonism toward Ukraine are likened to a recurring nightmare: “It’s kind of like it’s Groundhog Day with this.” (Tim Miller, [04:12])

2. The Colbert–FCC Controversy and Free Speech Crackdown

[05:21 – 09:14]

• CBS’s decision to spike a Colbert interview with James Talarico under the FCC “equal time” rule sparks fiery criticism.
• Wilson highlights MAGA hypocrisy: “I don’t want to hear another freaking word about free speech absolutism on the right because they are now aggressively trying to suppress free speech.” ([05:53])
• The outdated regulatory framework (“The Fairness Doctrine is a dinosaur”) is contrasted with the scale of today’s digital media ecosystem—they deride the idea that Colbert’s reach is dangerously outsized (‘It’s 2026…this is so dumb.’) ([06:59])
• Miller calls out the right’s “small government” pose as a lie: “We want some random bureaucrats telling a comedian who he can interview. Really? That’s limited government conservatism?” ([09:02])
• The meta-warning: once you cheer government overreach on your side, it can be used against you later.

3. DHS & Tech: Anti-Speech Moves and Potential for Accountability

[10:16 – 13:28]

• The Biden administration’s controversial requests of tech companies during COVID are compared to Trump’s DOJ wanting tech companies to dox critics of ICE—hypocrisy and real-world threats to the First Amendment.
• Rick predicts, “Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski are going to jail…they are engaging in a conspiracy to deprive Americans of their rights.” ([11:16])
• Miller and Wilson emphasize that state-level accountability (e.g., Minnesota’s Keith Ellison) can proceed even if federal pardons are abused: “You can’t pardon state crimes. Right.” ([14:28])

4. The Absurdity of MAGA Cronyism: Lewandowski and Grift

[17:08 – 19:11]

• Hilarious riffing on Corey Lewandowski’s current “side hustles,” including absurd Cameo videos and questionable access at DHS.
• “Corey’s just a man of a thousand talents and one of them is obviously as the gigolo in chief of DHS.” (Rick Wilson, [18:10])
• The normalization of grift and entitlement (“special government employee” status stretched to absurdity).

5. MAGA Shamelessness Personified: Steve Bannon and the FJB Coin

[19:36 – 24:38]

• Steve Bannon’s involvement in shady crypto ventures (FJB coin) and his deeply cringeworthy, sycophantic relationship with Jeffrey Epstein are dissected.
• “Bannon’s desire for revenge, or power, or whatever it was…was done fully with the knowledge that Jeffrey Epstein was a monster…with the further intent to launder Jeffrey Epstein’s reputation into something that wasn’t as horrific.” (Rick Wilson, [22:54])
• Wilson’s thesis: Shamelessness is MAGA’s superpower—“He doesn’t feel shame. He doesn’t feel guilt. He doesn’t feel remorse.” ([24:42])

6. Public Health Policy Catastrophe under RFK Jr.

[27:37 – 30:19]

• RFK Jr.’s anti-vaccine crusades and the chilling effect on medical science receive scathing condemnation.
• “They are killing off, as fast as they can, the most promising drug development vector for a lot of disease research…They’re willing to stack dead children up in this country to keep that con going.” (Rick Wilson, [28:37])
• Measles outbreaks in Florida and other states are linked directly to policy inaction.
• Miller and Wilson contextualize the COVID lessons unlearned, warning, “We are going to be caught up short the next time there’s a Covid or something worse.” ([30:30])

7. State of the 2026 Elections – Vibe Shift and Democratic Prospects

[31:44 – 36:13]

• “Be careful, we’re winning”: Wilson notes a significant “vibe shift” among pro-democracy forces—people are starting to believe Trump’s political hold is weakening.
• The risk: “Please do not conflate Donald Trump putting himself in political peril with the Democratic Party brand being something everybody’s like, they’re the best ever.” ([35:05])
• Messaging advice is boiled down: “They need to be telling people, this is crazy. Trump is hurting you. We will fix it. That’s…my mantra for Democrats right now.” ([35:01])

8. Democrats: Is the Party Adapting Fast Enough?

[37:59 – 44:42]

• Miller argues Democrats are getting better at fighting back—less “my honorable friend” deference, more direct attacks against GOP extremism in states like Virginia and California.
• Wilson agrees that younger, state-level Dems are showing new backbone, but calls out senior figures (like Schumer) for dwelling in the “old normal.”
• They discuss the need for fresh, appealing Senate recruits in red-leaning states; Wilson fears the party is not taking these races as seriously as they must.

9. Political Tone, Social Media, and Shaping a Winning Message

[47:03 – 49:37]

• Both blast the phony, academic tone of some Democratic operatives’ social media—“No one says safe space or triggered unironically. No one talks like 20 staffers.” (Rick Wilson, [48:20])
• “Just be normal. Maybe only have people do tweets that did not go to private university.” (Tim Miller, [49:30])

10. The Dangerous Incentive Structure of MAGA Politics and Humanity’s Loss

[49:42 – 51:43]

• In Florida, Rick describes how GOP lawmaker Randy Fine epitomizes MAGA's reward system for cruelty and bigotry.
• “He’s like fat Laura Loomer. All the conspiracy, all the craziness, all the ugliness about other people…that the MAGA incentive system rewards over and over again, that system is always like, how can you be the worst iteration of yourself?” (Rick Wilson, [50:34])

11. Jesse Jackson’s Legacy

[52:24 – 53:15]

• In the wake of Jesse Jackson’s passing, both men reflect soberly on how conservative media caricatured his legacy and how time may bring a broader perspective on Jackson’s civil rights contributions.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Marco Rubio’s fall:
  “He has fallen the furthest and has given up everything he ever claimed to believe in.”
  — Rick Wilson, [02:33]

• On MAGA’s selective principles:
  “I don’t want to hear another freaking word about free speech absolutism on the right—they are now aggressively trying to suppress free speech.”
  — Rick Wilson, [05:53]

• On Bannon’s shamelessness:
  “Shamelessness is a superpower for them…He doesn’t feel shame. He doesn’t feel guilt. He doesn’t feel remorse.”
  — Rick Wilson, [24:42]

• On the Democratic message for 2026:
  “This is crazy. Trump is hurting you. We will fix it.”
  — Rick Wilson, [35:01]

• On MAGA’s incentive structure:
  “How can you be the worst iteration of yourself? How can you be the worst person in the room?”
  — Rick Wilson, [50:34]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:57] — Rick Wilson on Marco Rubio’s ideological collapse
• [05:21] — CBS, Colbert, FCC, and free speech shenanigans
• [10:16] — DHS and tech: new anti-speech threats
• [17:08] — Corey Lewandowski’s grifts and chaos at DHS
• [19:36] — Steve Bannon’s FJB coin and Epstein tape
• [27:37] — RFK Jr., the anti-vaccine crusade, and resurgence of measles
• [31:44] — Democratic mood shift and electoral prospects in 2026
• [37:59] — Critique of Democratic messaging changes
• [47:03] — Tone-deaf Democratic social media
• [49:42] — Randy Fine and MAGA’s reward system for cruelty
• [52:24] — Jesse Jackson legacy reflection

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Closing Thoughts

The episode alternates between gallows humor and genuine alarm, combining hope for a pro-democracy turnaround with relentless reminders of MAGA’s “shamelessness.” Wilson and Miller implore listeners not to get complacent, urge Democrats to stay tough and adapt culturally, and punctuate the podcast with inside-baseball campaign wisdom straight from the trenches—always brimming with their signature irreverence.

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For listeners looking for an unvarnished, incisive, and sardonic summary of 2026’s political landscape—and what it takes to defend liberal democracy—this episode delivers.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

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[Rick Wilson]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Rick Wilson]

Hey, how are you, brother? Happy Mardi Gras.

[Tim Miller]

I'm well, I'm well, I'm happy to be here with you, you know, cut loose before Ash Wednesday a little bit, you know, be a little more sober minded tomorrow, you know, maybe sneak out to the Quarter for, for, for a banana daiquiri after this. Never, never hurts.

[Rick Wilson]

Never hurts.

[Tim Miller]

My child's already out there on the parade route, you know, getting all the. Getting all the bullshit. Getting all the crap. We got nothing but crap around here. Yeah, our house.

[Rick Wilson]

Nothing but. Nothing but crap. You got America's feed surplus.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, the first floor of our house is just full of shit. But hey, everyone's got a lot of joy. We've got a bunch to get to. Me and Bill, Crystal did, I don't know, 30 minutes on little Marco yesterday. And so I don't know if we need to belabor the point too much, but I feel very remiss to not let you, you know, take a few bites out of your fellow Florida man. Wonder what you thought about his Munich.

[Rick Wilson]

You know, as a guy, as a guy who supported Marco, you know, as far Back as when he ran for speaker of the House. A bunch of Silicon Valley guys who put together an outside Marco effort in 16 that I worked on. I was a longtime supporter of Marco Rubio because, you know, it seemed like Marco was our future. It seemed like Marco was a guy who could communicate with, with a rising cohort of voters and was not going to get swept up in the crapulousness of the, of Trumpism. And yet he is their greatest prize in some ways because he has fallen the furthest and has given up everything he ever claimed to believe in. And this week, you know, going over to lecture our NATO allies at the Munich Security Conference about holding the line in Europe and then going to.

[Tim Miller]

About their civilization.

[Rick Wilson]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

A fucking kid of a Cuban immigrant going to lecture me about Mozart.

[Rick Wilson]

Right? Yeah. And then he goes to do a campaign rally for Orban, a campaign speech rather, for Orban, one of the worst and most egregious dictators in Europe. So, you know, Marco has really, like, leaned into failing downward further and further. I've concluded there is no bottom for Marco in his ambition to become president after Trump is gone.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I did mention yesterday he also made a pit stop with his buddy Robert Fico, who's a prime minister of Slovakia who seems to be heading on an urbanist trajectory over there as well.

[Rick Wilson]

Yep.

[Tim Miller]

So he's doing this full circle.

[Rick Wilson]

I think part of this reflects the very clear internal Trump administration dynamic of we're the baddies now. You know, we're. We're the bad guys now. And so he is going to side with. At the end of the day, Marco doesn't have anything to do with negotiating with Putin because that's being run by, by the moron Witkoff and the idiot son in law. So sad.

[Tim Miller]

But he's complicit in that. And Trump took a. Trump took another shot at Ukraine. It's kind of like it's Groundhog Day with this. It's like, why do you even mention this? But Trump, just earlier this week, or was it yesterday or Sunday, was like, they better come to the table soon. Right.

[Rick Wilson]

They better get to the better get to the table. Or what, you're going to cut them off? Already done.

[Tim Miller]

It's like they've been the ones at the table. Why do you keep threatening Zelensky? Zelensky's been at the table for a while now. It's Putin that want to come to the table.

[Rick Wilson]

He's proposed at least nine peace plans in the last six months, and Putin has rejected all of them. And occasionally, when Trump like, mumbles or something. It says, well, Putin should. I'm not happy with Putin. You're not happy with him, but you never do anything to stop him. No, you're not happy with him, but you're on his side.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And you're on the side of Orban, who said that Putin isn't a threat to worry about. Brussels is. So anyway, it's pretty pathetic. Little Marco. I want to move on to kind of the big news of the morning here, which is out of cbs. So last night, Colbert revealed that the network's legal team had called the Late show staff and told them an interview with James Talarico could not be broadcast because of the FCC equal time clause, for which these shows have long had exemptions. Brendan Carr at the FCC suggested the exemption should no longer apply to programs like Colbert's because they are motivated by partisan purposes. CBS cave to this empty threat. It's hard for me to tell Rick exactly what's happening here. Is this FCC stupidity, FCC corruption, Barry Weiss and David Ellison stupidity, David Ellison and Barry Weiss corruption, or it's some combination of those four, and I can't figure it out.

[Rick Wilson]

I think the Venn diagrams can all overlap here, Tim. I mean, honestly, when you saw that, the, the first thing I thought, you know, as an advertising guy was like, man, CBS is really working on making their, their whole network brand poison. I, I think Chris La Civita got on the phone to Brendan Carr, and Brendan Carr got on the phone to cbs and CBS said, you know, no to Colbert because this, this is blatantly political. I don't want to hear another freaking word about free speech absolutism on the right because they are now aggressively trying to suppress free speech. And they can't have it both ways. They can't pretend that Colbert is a, is a trivial entertainer on the one hand, but an interview with James Talarico is of such immediate danger to the fairness and balance of the FCC's regulations that it's got to be yanked off the air. And obviously they just, they Streisand the shit out of themselves. Probably more people have seen the interview now being posted online that would have watched the show. So idiots gonna idiot to that point.

[Tim Miller]

We'll put the link to the interview in the show notes so you guys can all go watch it too, since it is on YouTube, since little Nazi Brendan Carr doesn't have any control over that, which speaks to the broader point of his. How this is where I go to the stupidity. It's kind of like if it is Corruption. It's really bad corruption. This whole rule, I would have been against it in any era. But you can understand in 1971, right, that you don't want a network that has a broadcasting license when there are only three of them to, like, pick a favorite in a political race and only air puff pieces for that. You know that you had to create some rule, right? But it's. It's 2026. Even on a good night, fewer people are watching Colbert, God love them, that are seeing, like random TikToks that Jasmine Crockett is putting up about the race. It's just like, come on, this is so dumb.

[Rick Wilson]

100%. I mean, look, look, Tim, I, I think you, you hit on something really important there, which is, it's not 1971 or 72. The Fairness Doctrine is a dinosaur. It's an artifact that lives in some regulatory, you know, backwater that in the era of YouTube and TikTok and socials, means nothing. It means absolutely nothing. And if, if the government's going to get in and regulate platforms, which it is regulating, CBS as a platform right now, then I want the folks on the MAGA side who are cheering this decision to recognize that at some point there will be somebody who's not Brendan Carr in charge of the fcc. And he's going to say, you know, X is a platform. Twitter's a platform. We're going to regulate them. Facebook's a platform. We're going to regulate them. YouTube's a platform. We're going to regulate them. And, you know, the problem with these excursions into greater government interference is it invites more government interference left or right down the line. And, you know, I saw you were getting lectured by our old buddy Scott Jennings about, you know, not being a conservative. And I was, I remember I was watching him say that, and I'm like, Tim is going to tear the bark off this guy because it's Scott Jennings and those guys who abandoned all their small government principles. This is big government, man.

[Tim Miller]

We want some random bureaucrats telling a comedian who he can interview. Really? That's. That's limited government conservatism.

[Rick Wilson]

And again, it's like these guys, the same guys who are like, I'm a free speech absolutist.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rick Wilson]

How are you really?

[Tim Miller]

Maybe not on the free speech absolutism. I should also mention this story for the Times this week, which again, Scott Jennings won't like me shouting at the fake news New York Times. I guess that, you know, I've gone, so lib, the DHS is Expanding its efforts to identify Americans who oppose ICE by sending tech companies legal requests for the names, email addresses, telephone numbers and other identifying data behind social media accounts that track or criticize the agency. So the federal government wants to dox anonymous social media accounts criticizing ice. The apparent origin story of why these tech oligarchs went in for Trump, if you take them at their word, and you don't think it's about money or corruption or autocracy, if you take them at their word, what they say the origin story was, they were so radicalized by Joe Biden's White House asking them, not telling them, asking them to take down Covid misinformation because that was such a threat to their free speech principles that they had to go in with the fascists. Like that is the stated rationale for Elon and Zuck and all these guys going in with Trump. And now the Trump DHS is sending them enforcement requests to out their users.

[Rick Wilson]

The brand poison for all these organizations that they're engaging in right now. If they think that making Kristi Noem and Corey Windowski happy by turning these names over so they can persecute American citizens, this is the kind of thing that is going to ripple out, I think. And people can stop using platforms when they don't like what they do. And I think they're going to expose themselves not only to shareholder problems, but to consumer problems. And down the line, the people that are trying to seek this information about American citizens on the basis of what the exercise of First Amendment rights. I think there are a lot of bad outcomes here, but I think there are worse outcomes for the people that are doing this inside the government right now. I firmly believe this. I'm not joking or being sarcastic about it. I believe Kristi Noem and Corlee Windowski are going to jail.

[Tim Miller]

Now that is. That's a Mardi Gras wish. You know, we can pray to the Mardi Gras gods that Rick Wilson's got something, right? Tell me more. I'm interested.

[Rick Wilson]

Look, I believe that they are engaging in a conspiracy to deprive Americans of their rights. I believe that the criminality about Lee Windowski and Noem selling off chunks of DHS contracts for God knows how he's doing it, but there have been multiple stories reporting it and the obstruction of justice now in the states, I think they are going to both be exposed and add in Tom Homan and every other monkey up and down that, up and down the tree at DHS who's engaged in this stuff. You know, the violation of Americans constitutional rights is at scale and there is an obvious conspiracy to violate those rights. And again, it's not going to happen tomorrow, folks. But there will be a day when the DOJ is not run by Pam Bondi. There will be a day when these.

[Tim Miller]

People are called to account state attorneys general's offices as well. What do you say to the people about the pardoning?

[Rick Wilson]

Right. And I would love our buddy Keith Ellison, who has been blocked by Justice. Now they won't give Minnesota authorities any of the investigative information on the Alex Preddy killing. Our buddy Keith Ellison needs to go out. They need to indict the DHS and ICE agents who shot and killed Alex Preddy. They need to indict them and arrest them. This is no longer a point where he can say, I'm going to wait and cooperate. We're going to try to get together and kumbaya this thing. No, Keith, you've got to go and arrest these people because they're part of a conspiracy that did deprive Alex Preddy not only of his of his liberty, but his life. I'm increasingly convinced that the only way out of this problem is to follow one of my fundamental rules of politics. Pain is the only teacher. These people have to suffer for the criminality and the unconstitutional behavior and for the deprivation of the rights of Americans that they are taking away from them. Because it sure seems to me like ICE is working really overtime to go after people who protest them harder than they are. To quote, round up the bad guys. 7% of the people that have been arrested are the bad guys.

[Tim Miller]

Did you ever expect you'd find yourself in a place in life where you're calling Keith Ellison your buddy and you are making an argument that he should be more radical than he is acting, that you're asking to go further?

[Rick Wilson]

Tim, I guess it's because we're all just big libs now. But call me crazy, but I would remember back when I was a Burkean conservative that the rule of law was central to conservative principle, that the rule of law prevented the whims of kings.

[Tim Miller]

You kill somebody execution style in the street, then you can get arrested. That is something that, yeah, that should.

[Rick Wilson]

Be a fundamental principle of the rule of law in America. But who knows with these guys?

[Tim Miller]

The Keith Ellison point you bring up is interesting because what I was going to ask you is anytime I give anyone, you know, our listeners, many of them are cantankerous for good reason. It's been a long decade, so anytime I offer even a glimmer of hope in this parade of horribles about future accountability, the comments pile up. Well, he's just gonna pardon everybody.

[Rick Wilson]

Can't pardon state crimes.

[Tim Miller]

You can't pardon state crimes. Right.

[Rick Wilson]

I don't know if you recall the beautiful the halcyon days of the Tea Party, but Republicans used to scream about the 10th Amendment at the top of their lungs all the time, that the states had not only independent judiciaries, but broad rights under the Constitution to pursue their own governance. And that seems to have gone dead quiet in this day and age. Now it's like, what does Daddy Donald want the state to do that should be what they do. None of this has been a compelling argument to my mind, that the pardons are not a compelling argument. The pardons have been issued so corruptly at this point that I think there are probably ways to go at some of these people, even on the federal level, on the back end of this, that the pardons become a hollow gift to these people.

[Tim Miller]

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[Rick Wilson]

Yeah, I saw that. I'm like, what, you and George Santos? Corey, what the.

[Tim Miller]

Have you seen the cameo about his poopies? About helping the kid with his poopies?

[Rick Wilson]

No, I did not. I missed that one and I'm kind of glad I missed it. Thanks for the nightmare for you, old Miller.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, I need to play it for you.

[Rick Wilson]

Hey, this message is from Mickey.

[Tim Miller]

Mickey, your daddy, Papa Dicky reached out to me and told me that you're toilet training. You must be a very special little boy. But I hear that you're starting to use the big boy toilet, so congratulations. And you're doing a great job with your poopies. Congratulations. I know your mom is going to be so happy for you. And I want to thank you in advance for being a Donald Trump supporter when you get older. All the best from your daddy, Papa Dicky. Oh, my God. So there you go, Rick. Just a little side hustle. You know, he's. He's throwing cash at their friends. The spokesperson's husband has a contract with dhs. They're flying around on fancy jets together. And in between all of that, he's helping little, little children with their poopies.

[Rick Wilson]

You know, Corey's just a man of a thousand talents and. And one of them is obviously as the gigolo in chief of dhs.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Rick Wilson]

And Corey, as a special government employee, has apparently stretched that little. That fiction to the breaking point as well.

[Tim Miller]

What he's basically doing at dhs, because you can't check in or badge in, he's doing the thing that, you know, you did when you're a teenager where you didn't want to pay for the parking garage and you followed the person in front of you. I don't know if you did that. If you're a bad teenager, you know, before the. Before the gate comes down, you just sneak on through. Corey is doing that at DHS so he doesn't have to badge in.

[Rick Wilson]

You know, I mean, I. I presume he could just work out of the plane that they travel the country in as well?

[Tim Miller]

I think so. Or her house. Yeah, the secretary's house.

[Rick Wilson]

Isn't it interesting that you've got so many cabinet members living on military bases now?

[Tim Miller]

It feels fashy.

[Rick Wilson]

It feels a little fashy. It feels a little fashy, yeah. How does Gnome's husband deal with Corey there? Like who sits in the cuck chair?

[Tim Miller]

Like the breath, you mean, or. No, I mean who's in the cuck chair. Yeah. Because I just wonder how you even deal with his smell around the house. I don't know. I don't know. We're gonna have to ask Mr. No. Maybe he's not around that much. I don't know.

[Rick Wilson]

Who knows?

[Tim Miller]

I'm sure we'll learn more about this. And oh, so now they tell a story.

[Rick Wilson]

There will be tell alls coming out of this administration on the back end that make everything for the first administration look mild by comparison.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of criming, we're gonna talk about our friend Steve Bannon. Will summer my colleagues False Flag newsletter. Another banger. It's just one banger after another. If you're not signed up for that newsletter, what are you doing? Here's today's On Thursday, a Missouri based investor, Andrew Barr, filed a lawsuit against Steve Bannon, your friend Boris Epstein and others involved in the operation of the Fuck Joe Biden Meme Coin, or FJB Coin for short. This gentleman alleged that he had lost $58,730.98 on the venture.

[Rick Wilson]

Imagine Steve Bannon being involved in a crypto play that isn't on the up and up.

[Tim Miller]

How is it possible? The complaint says that FJBcoin came with an unusually high 8% fee on transactions, with the commitment that it'd be divided between 3% in coin management and 5% going to charitable donations. But after Bannon and Neptune purchased ownership of the coin, the operators could only produce proof of small charitable donations, angering buyers who thought their money would go to Veterans Care. Turns out it did not go to Veterans Care.

[Rick Wilson]

I am absolutely shocked that Steve Bannon is involved in some shady shit. I mean, that is so disturbing to me that that paragon of moral virtue, Steve Bannon, is somehow, like I said, not on the up and up. It's a real shocker. I have to say this. You know, I always used to think of corruption as like the killer app in politics in some ways because it transcended parties. Yeah. And you look at the sort of rinky dink MEME Coin shit that Ban is doing, the Trump boys are Adding many zeros to those figures. I mean, they're talking billions instead of millions. They are, you know, raping and pillaging. Metaphorically. Maybe not metaphorically, but they're raping and pillaging on the. All these bitcoin plays, all these crypto plays. And so Steve Bannon being involved in a shady crypto deal is, like, least surprising category of the day.

[Tim Miller]

Did you watch any of his Epstein media prep?

[Rick Wilson]

I sure did.

[Tim Miller]

You did?

[Rick Wilson]

I sure did.

[Tim Miller]

And it is a really strange experience to watch it, actually, for me.

[Rick Wilson]

Yeah. Because you and I have both prepared people for big, challenging interviews and all that crap. And Bannon in those. In those moments, even though he's trying to prepare him for tough things, Bannon comes across to me as like a courtier. He's sort of like. He's always got this sort of like, I would love to be you. You're so powerful. You're so. You're so connected. And I find Bannon, you know, repulsive on a hundred different levels. But this relationship he built with Epstein, not only from that. That video, but just the course of the emails back and forth, the course of all of the communications between these guys, it's just so repugnant. Bannon's desire for revenge or power or whatever it was that led him into that orbit was done fully with the knowledge that Jeffrey Epstein was a monster when he met him, but with the further intent to launder Jeffrey Epstein's reputation into something that wasn't as horrific. And, Tim, I just find the whole thing, like, deeply sickening.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it is sickening. And the fact that he's doing this with a child sex predator obviously makes this so much worse. But just like, even if it was an Epstein, speaking of the cuck chair, the obsequiousness.

[Rick Wilson]

Calling him God, calling him God.

[Tim Miller]

I've never talked to anybody like that. I never puffed up any of my candidates like that.

[Rick Wilson]

I mean, you and I both might be a lot richer if we talk.

[Tim Miller]

To people like that. That's a good point. I would have been kicked out of two. Two debate preps if I didn't. If I talked to candidates a little bit nicer still. It's humiliating.

[Rick Wilson]

It really was grotesque and humiliating and just so damn weird. Was Bannon that butthurt after the Trump experience that he felt like Epstein was the lever for him to have power globally? Because that was during the peak of Bannon's trying to, like, really play in Europe and set up his Nazi Hogwarts school in Italy. I had a role in getting Rid of that, did you?

[Tim Miller]

What was it? Yep.

[Rick Wilson]

Little side roll and getting rid of that. But somebody I went to school with at GW is a senior Italian government official. And I was like, no, let me clarify what this guy is for you. And, yeah, yeah, he is a genuinely evil character in our politics. So in that regard, it shouldn't surprise me that he was willing to try to launder the reputation of the guy who was involved in the largest child trafficking ring in American history.

[Tim Miller]

There are no words so gobsmacking. It's just like how obsequious he was to. I think he might have just really been fond of a little man crush on him. I don't understand any other explanation he might have.

[Rick Wilson]

He might have. One last thing about Bannon.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rick Wilson]

One of the things about Bannon that informs all MAGA and Republican behavior today is that shamelessness is a superpower for them. He doesn't feel shame. He doesn't feel guilt. He doesn't feel remorse. He doesn't feel regret. All he wants to do is accomplish his mission. He's like the scabby Terminator. And because of that, he doesn't care. He would probably, in a private moment say, yeah, Jeff was a great guy.

[Tim Miller]

What does your Italian friend think about Meloni? She's been a little better than expected, right? I mean, Bannon kind of wanted her to be Maga Barbie, Italian Maga Barbie. And she's not really doing that. And she hasn't been good on gays, but, you know, she's not been that bad.

[Rick Wilson]

No, she's not great on gays, but. But. But she's been much better on NATO and Ukraine, Right, than the gnat pops on our side of the ocean expected her to be. They really thought because she's charismatic and attractive that she was going to be a great messenger for them. And she's been stronger for them on a couple of culture war side issues. But the other stuff of governance is where she's put her energy. So I'm not sure she's delivered what they had hoped.

[Tim Miller]

All right, let's talk about something we all want. Peace of mind. For me, that starts with knowing my home and my loved ones are safe. That's why I trust SimpliSafe, the security system millions of Americans rely on to protect what matters most. And this month, I'm excited to share an exclusive offer with you. 50% off a new SimpliSave system when you order. Today, traditional security systems only take action after someone has already broken in. That's too late. Simplisave's active Guard Outdoor protection can help prevent break ins before they happen. No long term contracts or cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably around a buck a day 60 day satisfaction guarantee or your money backed named best home security system by U.S. news World Report five years in a row. So why wait? Protect your home today and enjoy 50% off a new SimpliSafe system with professional [e-mail] thebullwork that's simplisafe.com thebullwork there's no safe like SimpliSafe. On the other side of the coin, here's somebody who's worse than expected. That's a good transition for you and that's RFK Jr my colleague Jonathan Cohn in his newsletter this week wrote about how Moderna had developed a groundbreaking vaccine for seasonal flu. The flu shot, which uses the MRNA technology that was made famous during the COVID shots, is the product of lengthy research and development. It was rejected by RFK Jr and his bureaucratic goons. One of those unnamed told reporters on a conference call about this decision that Moderna might have more luck with a second request for approval if the company showed some humility when it made the submission. That's how we're deciding whether or not to approve vaccines now, whether you are nice enough, whether you've said thank you once, right?

[Rick Wilson]

Very much. The Vance approach so we do a lot of science stuff in this household and the last time I checked it was not about humility. It was about research and testing and scientific rigor. But it all makes sense, Tim, if you look at one key factor. I've determined this a while ago. If you just ask yourself what would we be seeing from HHS if a serial killer was in charge? And it would be exactly the same shit that RFK is doing. They're killing off as fast as they can. The most promising drug development vector for a lot of disease research, which is MNRI vaccines. They're killing off a program that would have potentially led to a cure for multiple sclerosis in this country, in the world. They're killing off the requirements in the states for childhood vaccinations. And what they're not killing off with regulatory efforts. They're killing off by increasing vaccine skepticism. Because the Maha movement is a lie. The Maha movement is not about health. It is about a group of people around RFK who are this long running anti vax scam and they are grifters and they are con men and they're willing to stack dead children up in this country to keep that con going.

[Tim Miller]

How's the measles count in North Florida, your neck of the woods?

[Rick Wilson]

You know, we've got measles in Gainesville, Florida, which is a big college town and it seems to be spreading pretty quickly. We've got measles here in Tallahassee. We've got measles across the state popping up. It hasn't reached the Texas numbers yet, but, you know, I think because there's a lot of meth in the water here to push back on the counteract, we are going to see preventable deaths at a scale that nobody in Trump's world will give a damn about. They don't care. As long as RFK is popular with the base, then he's fine. He can kill as many people as he wants.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, we've already seen this and that's obviously not hyperbole. We saw this with COVID and you see this now in like the, when people look back on Covid. And I say this as somebody who is like not really keen on some of the excesses of the COVID mandates around masking and other things and said so at the time. But the fact that the conventional wisdom in this administration is to look back at Covid and think the problem was that we tried too hard to stop death. That's what their assessment is, that the, a million plus deaths, that wasn't the issue. The issue was, you know, in some places, folks went a little overboard trying to prevent deaths. Like, that's the, that's their stated position. So obviously that would be their position on this.

[Rick Wilson]

And, and look, we had not faced, we had not faced a pandemic like Covid in this country since the Spanish flu in 1917 at the same scale.

[Tim Miller]

Right, right.

[Rick Wilson]

And yes, the government flailed around a bit. They were trying desperately in the States as well. We didn't know what was going to slow the spread. We worked hard at it. And some things. Again, were there some excesses, shutdowns or whatever? Absolutely. And the problem is they've now, as you point out, they've taken those lessons and said, well, if we do anything now, including even using the word pandemic, which RFK has taken off of the websites at HHS and cdc, pandemics don't exist anymore because they took them off the website. Okay, we are going to be caught up short the next time there's a Covid or something worse. And they're going to say, but my freedom, I can't wear a mask.

[Tim Miller]

But my, I'm okay. With less learned, maybe. Maybe we could have learned some lessons. Maybe everybody could have learned some lessons. Maybe Rhonda Sanctimonious could have learned some lessons about all the excess deaths in Florida after the vaccine was approved. Maybe they could learn some lessons, too, and the San Francisco school board could learn lessons. That's something to think about. But no, no, excess dust didn't matter. You have a newsletter that was We're Aligned. So I like that. I like it when we're aligned.

[Rick Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Tim Miller]

The headline is be careful, we're winning. You observe something I was talking with Bill Kristol about yesterday, which is I do think that on the pro democracy side, there's a vibe shift that has happened just even anecdotally, casually and on the Internet, of course. But even in real life, people coming up to me on the street, you know, it's gone from how do I flee the country? To like, I think we might be kicking his ass right now. Like, you know, like there is now people are so concerned. There's a lot of things worried. I don't think there's a lot of hubris about it, but I just think that the vibe is, is they're sensing that, you know, maybe things aren't as durable as they had looked, you know, in spring of 2025.

[Rick Wilson]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

That is also a cautionary tale. So why don't you, why don't you tell us a little bit about what your take was on that.

[Rick Wilson]

The point I was trying to make in this piece was that the ground has shifted under Trump and a lot of it's his fault. It's the tariffs, it's the behavior, it's the corruption, it's the failings across the board to deliver on promises. And Democrats have an opportunity now to not only take the House by a significant majority, but the Senate is also now in danger. It's not as in as much danger as some of the press think it is, but it is a meaningful.

[Tim Miller]

We're getting to that next.

[Rick Wilson]

Right. It is a meaningful risk factor. Now, that has got the guys at the nrc, our old buddies over there panicked. They are not happy. They thought that this year could be bad, but that now they're realizing just how terrifyingly bad it can be. There has been a, a snapback of the people that Trump brought over in 2024, those young Hispanic, young African American men, they're gone. They're back to the Democrats and, and further to the Democrats than they were before. You've seen a lot of this idea. There was a permanent realignment in 24 has been. Just shattered.

[Tim Miller]

The multicultural working class.

[Rick Wilson]

Exactly. The coalition, the, the Josh Holmes permanent working class majority. That's why we can't impeach Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rick Wilson]

In 2021, that's not working, not working out that well. Permanent governing majority was interesting.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe they shouldn't be menacing working class Hispanics in the streets with masked thugs and doing an assault on their rights, whether they're here legally or not. That's probably what you shouldn't do if you're trying to build a multicultural working class coalition. But.

[Rick Wilson]

Oh, well, that could be a factor. But all that that he gained in 24 is gone and then some. But Democrats, I think are. Democrats are still playing by what I call the my honorable friend rule. My honorable friend across the aisle is not a bad person. He's just misled by Trump. No, they're going to try to do very, very horrible things, Tim. In the coming nine months, Trump is going to try to execute on this election takeover idea. And, folks, look, every time someone says there's no way Trump could do X in the last decade, what has he done? He's done X in the last decade.

[Tim Miller]

Or at least tried to do X, I think. Yeah, right.

[Rick Wilson]

Yeah. And again, he doesn't have to even succeed in it at scale, but he's gonna try to do it to break the systems that remain in opposition to him. I just absolutely beg our Democratic friends, please do not conflate Donald Trump putting himself in political peril with the Democratic Party brand being something everybody's like, they're the best ever. I can't wait to read the policy guidelines for whatever issue and check out appendix seven of that PowerPoint. They don't care about any of that shit. They need to be telling people, this is crazy. Trump is hurting you. We will fix it. That's sort of my mantra for Democrats right now. Because people are not, they don't want to talk about climate change or gun control or health care or prescription drugs. And I'm not saying, not that those things aren't meritorious on some level to have discussions about, but Americans are hurting economically. They're, they're hating the chaos. They don't like the corruption. And those things are right in front of you. And they're easy lifts because as every single day passes, Trump will get crazier and louder and more dangerous. And those things give you a perfect opportunity to say, let's stop the insanity. It's not going to be read my prescription drug plan.

[Tim Miller]

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[Rick Wilson]

Yeah, my honorable friend.

[Tim Miller]

My honorable friend. I think they've made some improvements on the my honorable friend rule. I think that was a really critique last year. You look at Louise Lucas just and Abigail Spamberger just going ham on the.

[Rick Wilson]

Republicans and fucking heroes, man.

[Tim Miller]

And by the way, I was there, I was saying this and I thought this is what I can say as a podcaster, but they're not actually going to do this. I was like, they should carve up Virginia so the Republicans only get one seat. I was like, put southwest and south side all together and then Just carve it up and make it work. And I was talking to a Virginia Democratic congressman who was like, yeah, that's. I would be for that. But like, is that really, is that actually going to get through the legislature? That's exactly what they did. I mean, they just went full bore and said, you want to try to do mid decade redistricting? Watch this. Yours is going to backfire in Texas, by the way, because you're losing ground with Hispanics and ours is going to work. Yeah.

[Rick Wilson]

California and Virginia get high marks, plus.

[Tim Miller]

To them, plus to Gavin for starting that out in California. And even the senators, you know, the Mark Kelly's of the world, you're seeing kind of a different attitude. You know, we did the thing last year, you were doing it on your show, everybody was like, well, at least there's Chris Murphy speaking truth. Right. Like, when you're talking about the senators, it was like, only Chris Murphy is like, really understands what time it is. Like at this time last year, that's changing. Is everybody perfect? No, but like, so anyway, I just. Sometimes they get a little dogged, a little too hard on that stuff.

[Rick Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think the problem for a lot of people is they see Schumer as a guy who is desperately, desperately, desperately wanting to go back to the normal world that he lived in for 40 years. And it's never coming home. Yeah, it's never coming back.

[Tim Miller]

So I think that's a fair criticism.

[Rick Wilson]

But I think you're right. There are a lot of younger leaders coming up. There are a lot of leaders in the states that are very promising and there are a lot of people who are willing to go swing for the fences now on things that are, that don't respect the my honorable friend issue. They're like, these people tried to kill us on January6. They, maybe they're not. Maybe they're not your friends.

[Tim Miller]

And they killed two of our supporters in the streets. I mean, what did Donald Trump say? What was his message? And they're going after me because they're coming for you. Like that was Trump's message in 2024. I'm the one standing in the way. Well, now the shoe's on the other foot. And Trump has killed two members of the Pro Democracy coalition. I mean, not personally, but his goons killed them in the streets and they're running cover for them and protecting them right now. And so, I mean, I think that it's important to take that seriously, obviously. And I think that there has been a rhetorical shift on that Front. Here's my list on the negatives. And the first one is you kind of mentioned the Senate. And there's no successful 2026 without winning the Senate. That is my bar. It is not a blue wave. It is not a successful blue wave unless you win the Senate. They're tough seats, they're red seats. Trump won them by 10 points. But they're all places where Democrats had senators in the lifetimes of the senior citizens who are going to be voting, with the exception of Texas. But Iowa, Ohio, Sherrod Brown's been a senator. Like Alaska, they've all had Democratic senators not so, so long ago. Okay. So you got to figure out a way to win those places.

[Rick Wilson]

Maine.

[Tim Miller]

Maine, with the exception of Peltola, like the recruitment. I just. Sherrod Brown is his own thing. So that's kind of fine. I put that in a separate bucket. It's like, I guess you can write you're riding with him. It worked once. I'm a little skeptical, but okay. It's a theory.

[Rick Wilson]

I join you in that. I think Ohio has changed.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rick Wilson]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Where is the seriousness about trying to win these states with people that reflect the states and that shed some of the baggage of the party? Fresh faces, people who aren't, you know, bogged down by having whatever the Biden position on immigration or any, you know, number of cultural issues, like, why not try that? They're all basically run of the mill Democrats running in all of these red states. And I'm worried about that. And when you, I agree with you when you say that, like, the Senate is not as much in play as some people think. I think it could be in play, but I'm worried about it.

[Rick Wilson]

I'm worried about it, too. And look, I think tying the Senate up, having a smaller Republican majority, could still be a marginal win. I think you would get some cracks in the system there.

[Tim Miller]

And if you get into a tie, you can really start to put the screws to Markowski. I'm never going to imagine that she's going to be our savior, but that is a potential.

[Rick Wilson]

Also, I don't know how Maine's going to shake out. All I can tell you is in 2020, when we went after Susan Collins from the Lincoln Project, I had more Republicans furious with me and furious with LP who were like, she's the good one. She's the good one. She resists Trump. She's not going to be a Trumper. And they all thought she'd lost on election day. Her people, who I knew, all the people that were running her campaign were calling me like, you motherfucker. I hate you. Oh, well, she won. And I wonder what's going to shake out there. I don't know what your opinion is on it. I mean, Platner's got major flaws from his character in some ways, but Janet Mills is 400 years old.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, they both represent the two kind of just generic flaws that you would list about the Democratic Party. And like, Mills is so representative of the flaws of the Biden era. And Platner, like, has, you know, this baggage and, you know, kind of rough.

[Rick Wilson]

Edges are one thing, but then.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, and like another. Yeah, exactly. And that's what he's saying online. So I, I want the Democrats to recruit regular people who have baggage in their past. I think we're in a different era. So I'm not quite as hostile to Platinum as some others who are like, who share, you know, my more moderate.

[Rick Wilson]

I have not disqualified him in my head, by the way.

[Tim Miller]

I just, I just kind of wish he was running in Ohio. Like, that goes back to my, like, I like, let's try something new like have a guy like that running in a red state. See what like you're. They're trying that with Osborne actually as an independent, and he doesn't have the baggage of Platinum, but they have a pretty similar profile. And I think that Osborne race is very interesting.

[Rick Wilson]

I think Osborne is interesting.

[Tim Miller]

My answer is the thing you're not supposed to say is a pundit, which is like, I really don't know. It feels a little risky. Can't we have a somewhere in the middle between the 80 year old and the, you know, far left shit poster? Like, isn't there something. Is there another option? Can I. Is there a Goldilocks here?

[Rick Wilson]

That's where like a Talarico. If you could clone a Talarico in a bunch of other states, you would do that. You would do that. You would pick that guy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rick Wilson]

We've all broken our hearts on Texas a million times. But if you get people who are great communicators, who are not 80, who are not also blue and on right. More Talaricos.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that doesn't feel that.

[Rick Wilson]

As I say to people in Pennsylvania, you could have had Connor Lamb.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you could have. You could have had Connor Lamb. Hell yeah. Justice for Connor Lamb.

[Rick Wilson]

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[Tim Miller]

Is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a first stepfather, Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak with my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talkspace works with most major insurers and most Insured members have a $0 copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code SPACE80 when you go to talkspace.com Match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com Save $80 with code [e-mail] okay, I have one more nitpick with the Democrats. I just have to do with you because I feel like we are the ones. This is like our obligation as the former Republicans to be the ones to carry this message.

[Rick Wilson]

Tough love.

[Tim Miller]

I saw this tweet. I saw this tweet from Gavin Newsom yesterday and I don't think that Gavin sent it. So I do think, by the way, that Democratic politicians who want to run in 2028 should send their own tweets. But that's a side point. I think his staffer sent it. Ted Cruz called him historically illiterate. Fuck Ted Cruz. He doesn't know Anything. And I think there's plenty of appropriate replies to that. Gavin's reply was Ted Cruz. Calling a dyslexic person illiterate is a new low, even for him. So I didn't even know Gavin Newsom was dyslexic till he sent this tweet. And the Democrats have to flush out every 26 year old who sends tweets like this, right?

[Rick Wilson]

Stop talking like that. You know, there's a great book that changed my life in politics. It was written by Bill Clinton, speechwriter, a guy named David Kuznet, back in the. Back in the late early 90s. And it was called Speaking American. And it was basically an analysis of how he and the Clinton speechwriting team had, with Clinton's natural instincts, started speaking like Americans. No one says safe space or triggered unironically. No one talks like 20 staffers.

[Tim Miller]

This is a new low. Come on.

[Rick Wilson]

How dare you, sir?

[Tim Miller]

And it's also not a new low. It's also wrong. Like, it's not a new low for Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz has so many lows. Ted. Hold on. Whole Ted Cruz's whole life is Lowe's. Like, just say fuck off. You like fat body, Go to Cancun, whatever. I don't know. I talk about. A normal person would talk about Ted Cruz, you douche. I just.

[Rick Wilson]

I mean literally say Ted Cruz is a dick. That solves the problem. That. That. That is how we speak in America.

[Tim Miller]

No one likes you. What did Al Franken say? Borrow from Al Franken. I like Ted Cruz better than most of my colleagues do. And I hate Ted Cruz.

[Rick Wilson]

It's one of my. It's one of my rules of politics is there are two types of people in the world. Ted Cruz and people who dislike Ted Cruz.

[Tim Miller]

There you go. So anyway, I don't want to overanalyze one tweet. It doesn't really matter. But it only matters on the principle that there are too many 24 year olds who came up online who are posting in the candidate's voice, talking like they're complaining on left wing forums. Okay. And talking like they're canceling people on left wing forums. Nobody likes it. Stop doing it. Either do your tweets yourself or hire people to do the tweets that talk like a normal person.

[Rick Wilson]

Just be normal. Just.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, maybe only have people do tweets that did not go to private university. Maybe that might be the best place.

[Rick Wilson]

To go state school. People do the tweets. Nothing wrong with that.

[Tim Miller]

All right. Speaking of bad tweets. I've got a way worse one than Gavin Newsom's for you. I'd like to close off with. It's always the case anytime. It's just important. Always. When you're nitpicking the Democrats, remember to remind people that this is a nitpick and this is annoying, but it is not even in the same ballpark as a congressman from your state. Randy Fine, who posted this. If they force us to choose, comma, the choice between dogs and Muslims is not a difficult one. So he's saying he was going to side with the dogs over the Muslims. You would think that evolution would have snuffed out Randy Fine's bloodline, like, unclear how. Like, his parents mated, how he would find a mate, how they have. How he hasn't had a heart attack. He's like, he's a walking heart attack. Out he finds a chair man, the harpoons.

[Rick Wilson]

People shout as he walks by.

[Tim Miller]

How has. It's unbelievable. It makes me question the theory of evolution that Randy Fine has survived this far. But he might be the worst congressman.

[Rick Wilson]

Oh, he is. When Randy Fine was in the Florida legislature, his own Republican colleagues hated him with such ferocity that. That when they. When he announced he was going to run for Congress, they literally had a party at the Governor's club about it. They were so thrilled to be rid of Randy Fine. They hated him so much. And because Randy Fine embodies. He's like fat Laura Loomer. All the conspiracy, all the craziness, all the ugliness about other people, about other human beings that the MAGA incentive system rewards over and over and over again, that system is always like, how can you be the worst iteration of yourself? How can you be the worst person in the room? You know, how can you be somebody who wants to basically call for the murder of Muslims for likes and clicks? He's a deeply, deeply sick individual, by the way. He's a really fucked up guy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I kind of like Laura Loomer better than him. Like, I feel like it's almost an insult to Laura Loomer to call Randy Fine fat Laura Loomer. Not that there's anything wrong with insulting Laura Loomer, by the way. I'm just saying. I guess I should say shout out. We. We lost Jesse Jackson this morning. I did a pod with Abby Phillip about him, and I read her book about. And I gotta say, I. There's a lot that I. I just didn't know about Jesse Jackson, and it gave me a more full perspective on his legacy as opposed to like the Fox News perspective on his legacy. And it was really valuable. If you missed it, people should go listen to that or check out her book. I don't know if you have anything you want to leave us with on that.

[Rick Wilson]

Look, I think, I think he was a guy who in that arc of the civil rights movement, he became a sort of right wing shibboleth over time, like, oh, it's a race hustler and all that. But you look at what he came out of, you look at what he managed to build as a guy. You know, both of his sons served in Congress. He's somebody who came up out of, out of the deep south, sharecropper, civil rights era, radical discrimination to becoming somebody who built something meaningful and built a legacy in that post king environment. This does not speak well of us as a country. He became a caricature on Fox and I think we're going to probably have a better appreciation of him as time goes by than we did and certainly I will admit than I did when I lived in that bubble.

[Tim Miller]

Same belt. Rick Wilson, thank you for doing the Mardi Gras episode with me. I thought about having jvl, but I was like, you know, JVL is more of an Ash Wednesday person. You and me are more of a Mardi Gras person. So I do my best, my friend. I hope people enjoyed this show with the, with a daiquiri or a Sazerac or something. Enjoy your Fat Tuesday. We're gonna see everybody. We'll have a regular show tomorrow and then I'll see everybody tomorrow night in Minneapolis. I'm so excited to be with folks up there. It's gonna be great. And so everybody, we'll see you all then. Thanks to Rick. Happy Mardi Gras. We'll take you out.

[Rick Wilson]

Thanks, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

With some Louisiana music. The Boars podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

[Rick Wilson]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Rick Wilson]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Rick Wilson]

Your first order with code comfort.

[Tim Miller]

That's tommyjohn.com comfort Tommy John comfort Perfected. Hello, America. It's your new favorite podcast here. Yes, It's James and Andy 2 thought British podcast no Such thing as a Fish. That's right.

[Rick Wilson]

We do facts.

[Tim Miller]

We do weird facts, fun facts, facts you've never heard before. James, give us a fact. Did you know you may be able to cure chronically blocked noses with a snot transplant? Lovely, lovely fact. If you want to hear us, go to wherever you get your podcasts and search for no such thing as a fish.

[Rick Wilson]

That's right.

[Tim Miller]

We'll see you there.