The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Ro Khanna: Trump Is in Denial

Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Rep. Ro Khanna (D-CA)

Episode Overview

This episode features California Congressman Ro Khanna in a wide-ranging conversation with Tim Miller, covering the coalition-building behind the release of the Epstein files, the war in Iran and opposition strategies, the Democratic Party’s coalition and electoral prospects, the challenge of anti-Semitism discourse, and navigating the disruptive rise of AI and big tech. Khanna advocates for bold, imaginative politics, building cross-ideological alliances, and a practical, future-oriented agenda for liberal democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Coalition-Building on the Epstein Files

[01:38–16:17]

• How the coalition began:

  • Khanna and Thomas Massie (R-KY) joined forces, despite skepticism from both parties, to pursue the release of the Epstein files.
  • It was initially dismissed as too conspiratorial, with accusations of aligning with "QAnon-adjacent" thinking.
  • They focused the effort on justice for survivors, not partisanship.

  "It was dismissed initially on our side by, why are we engaging in conspiracy theories? ... This isn't serious, Ro." — Ro Khanna [05:09]

• Success against all odds:

  • The House passed their bill with overwhelming bipartisan support, neutralizing Trump's ability to veto.
  • Khanna notes congressional maneuvers are often written off as fantasy, but persistence matters.

  "Discharge petitions almost never succeed ... The idea that Donald Trump would sign the law was almost unthinkable." — Ro Khanna [06:10]

  "Sometimes you can build things that didn't exist. ... if you think out of the box ... Sometimes you can build things that didn’t exist." — Ro Khanna [07:53]

• Ongoing investigations and testimony:

  • The next step is obtaining testimony from Pam Bondi, specifically about FBI file redactions, lack of investigations into powerful Epstein associates, and rumors about hidden files relating to Trump and others [09:06–11:21].

  "Why has there not been a single investigation about Les Wexner and Leon Black and people who have credible allegations against them?" — Ro Khanna [09:12]

• Elite impunity and public anger:

  • Khanna frames the issue as “working class vs. the Epstein class,” reflecting a deep public anger at elite impunity.

  "Our politics is sort of the working class versus the Epstein class. And Democrats should drive that." — Ro Khanna [13:18]

2. Skepticism and Evidence in Pursuing Justice

[16:22–20:32]

• Addressing reckless accusations:

  • Khanna cautions against a witch hunt: Mere appearance in files doesn’t prove complicity in crimes.
  • Admits accidentally naming some individuals wrongly, corrected quickly.

  "It shouldn’t be a witch hunt. ... There has to be some kind of judgment and not just the tarring and feathering of anyone who happens to be in the file." — Ro Khanna [17:05]

• Limits of conspiracy theories:

  • Khanna avoids speculation about intelligence ties without evidence; suggests a presidential commission as the only responsible way to address such questions.

  "There are legitimate questions about whether or not he [Epstein] had ties to any intelligence agency. There's no evidence that I have seen corroborating that." — Ro Khanna [19:41]

3. Opposition to the Iran War and U.S. Involvement Abroad

[22:02–29:03]

• Khanna’s firm antiwar stance:

  • Calls for no funding for an Iran supplemental, emphasizes opportunity costs: billions could go to domestic needs like free college or childcare.
  • Notes loss of American life and doubts that airstrikes will achieve regime change or make the U.S. more secure.

  "For that amount you could have free public college for everyone ... the cost to the American people is extraordinary." — Ro Khanna [22:18]

  "The reality is ... unless you're going to put in ground troops ... you're not going to create some kind of regime change." — Ro Khanna [22:58]

• Understanding the administration's motives:

  • Objective is to degrade Iran's capabilities, but Khanna blames Trump for the current crisis, citing Trump’s withdrawal from Obama’s nuclear deal as escalating risk [24:00–25:47].

  "It was his entire creation because he didn’t do the JCPOA. ... This was his entire creation." — Ro Khanna [24:29]

• Republican response and MAGA coalition:

  • Harder to persuade MAGA House members, though Khanna reports more grassroots/influencer awareness.
  • Trump’s denial and lack of a coherent aim are central critiques, with mockery about “declare victory” as a policy [25:48–28:31].

  "The president is just in denial. I mean, there’s no coherence to the policy." — Ro Khanna [27:44]

4. Coalitions Across the Aisle and The Limits of Who to Partner With

[29:03–32:34]

• Kent's resignation and coalition politics:

  • Discusses the resignation of Joe Kent from Trump’s administration over the war—calls Kent's whistleblowing on lack of imminent threat worth listening to.
  • Acknowledges problematic views in past Kent and other right-wing figures, but believes in engaging across coalitions for focused legislative goals.

  "I believe in a coalition politics. ... Politics is about building coalitions while keeping true to your principles." — Ro Khanna [31:18]

• Engaging with controversial platforms and figures:

  • Khanna defends going on shows with hosts he doesn’t always agree with to reach broader audiences.

  "Going on shows, speaking to people, even if they have certain opinions that you don't agree with or even find gross, I think is part of living in a democracy." — Ro Khanna [32:16]

5. Anti-Semitism, Criticism of Israel, and Democratic Party Discourse

[34:43–39:49]

• Drawing the line on hate vs. criticism:

  • Khanna insists he always calls out hate and anti-Semitism, but also warns against conflating that with legitimate criticism of Israel or purity tests within the party.

  "It's unfortunate when legitimate criticism of the government of Israel is conflated with anti-Semitism." — Ro Khanna [36:57]

• Disputes about terms and public statements:

  • Responds to criticism by ADL head Jon Greenblatt for using “neocons;” argues it’s a political term, not a coded slur.

  "I actually was confused why that term had anything to do with someone being Jewish or Israel. It was a worldview." — Ro Khanna [37:58]

• Tolerance for risk in public discourse:

  • Khanna argues Dems should risk mixing it up online, showing their real selves for democratic engagement.

  "People want to see the real you … they want to see you mix it up." — Ro Khanna [39:49]

6. Democratic Party Coalitions and Electoral Lessons

[43:26–49:38]

• Populist/progressive vs. mainstream Democrats:

  • Miller points to recent election results where far-left candidates faltered, challenging the online narrative of a DSA/left takeover.

  "There is an imaginary consensus on the Internet that the entire Democratic coalition has decided they want to go fully in with the DSA left or the populist left. We're not seeing a ton of evidence of that in elections." — Tim Miller [43:43]

• Khanna’s perspective on endorsements and the coalition:

  • Khanna celebrates both left and center-left victories, supports endorsement by values rather than odds of winning.
  • Sees a unifying message around economic populism, opposing wars, and accountability for elites.

  "The party needs to be tackling wealth inequality, ... offering a vision, what I call a 21st century Marshall Plan for America or new economic patriotism." — Ro Khanna [44:48]

• Progressives in swing states:

  • Khanna insists economic populists can (and have) won swing states; Miller counters with centrist successes like Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania.

  "I certainly reject the idea that someone running on Medicare for all ... can't win a state like Pennsylvania." — Ro Khanna [47:04]

7. The Future of AI, Big Tech, and the Democratic Agenda

[51:39–55:13]

• Khanna’s vision for AI policy:

  • Sees need for an "AI democratist" approach: not acceleration or doomerism, but ensuring benefit for ordinary Americans.

  "AI revolution working not just for tech billionaires, but for ordinary Americans." — Ro Khanna [52:14]

• Three proposals:

  1. National jobs agenda to address tech displacement.
  2. Change tax code to incentivize human employment.
  3. Promote worker ownership in tech enterprises.

  "We need to change the tax code, incentivize hiring people instead of hiring agentic AI. ... Think of how transformative it would be if ... million people working at Walmart had some percentage of profit or stock that they had." — Ro Khanna [52:24]

• Need for bold, visionary politics:

  • Criticizes both "central casting" swing-state blandness and excessive focus-grouping; argues for inspiring policies that address real 21st-century problems.

  "Our kids are not having the American dream. How are you going to capture the imagination? ... That's where the Democratic Party should focus." — Ro Khanna [54:41]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On cross-party coalitions:

  "What started with just four or five Republicans now has even Comer voting to subpoena Pam Bondi ... it shows that through just perseverance and hard work, if you get the right issue, it is possible to peel off Republicans." — Ro Khanna [07:05]

• On leadership focus if Dems win the House:

  "Partly because these survivors deserve justice ... also it's a broader look at what I would argue is a fundamental anger in this country that people who are wealthy and powerful are using their connections to shield themselves from the law, that there are two tiers of justice." — Ro Khanna [11:57]

• On media/policy engagement across divides:

  "The politics is about building coalitions while keeping true to your principles." — Ro Khanna [31:18]

• On tackling AI disruption:

  "We have an opportunity to have the most affirmative generational jobs agenda in this country that will put people to work." — Ro Khanna [52:14]

Important Timestamps

• Introduction of Ro Khanna & Coalition Politics: [01:13–02:55]
• Epstein Files Coalition and Tactics: [04:05–07:53]
• Bondi Testimony & Accountability: [09:06–11:21]
• Class Impunity, Justice, and Political Anger: [12:22–13:18]
• Navigating Reckless Accusations in Epstein Probe: [16:17–20:32]
• Iran War Opposition and Costs: [22:02–24:00]
• Trump’s Iran Policy Critique: [24:00–25:47]
• Debating Anti-Semitism and Israel Criticism: [34:43–39:49]
• Election Results & Party Direction: [43:26–49:38]
• AI, Tech Policy, and Economic Vision: [51:39–55:13]

Overall Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, occasionally combative, and always pragmatic. Khanna underscores the value of political imagination, risk-taking, and the need for Democrats to engage earnestly with uncomfortable or cross-cutting topics in pursuit of liberal democracy and actual policy progress. He calls for a politics that is ambitious and responsive to real-world anxieties, especially about elite impunity, endless war, and rapid technological change.

Summary prepared for listeners who want a comprehensive, inside look at the ongoing tectonic shifts in American politics and the progressive strategies debated at the heart of these changes.