Ro Khanna: Trump Is in Denial

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Ro Khanna: Trump Is in Denial

Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Rep. Ro Khanna (D-CA)

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Episode Overview

This episode features California Congressman Ro Khanna in a wide-ranging conversation with Tim Miller, covering the coalition-building behind the release of the Epstein files, the war in Iran and opposition strategies, the Democratic Party’s coalition and electoral prospects, the challenge of anti-Semitism discourse, and navigating the disruptive rise of AI and big tech. Khanna advocates for bold, imaginative politics, building cross-ideological alliances, and a practical, future-oriented agenda for liberal democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Coalition-Building on the Epstein Files

[01:38–16:17]

• How the coalition began:

  • Khanna and Thomas Massie (R-KY) joined forces, despite skepticism from both parties, to pursue the release of the Epstein files.
  • It was initially dismissed as too conspiratorial, with accusations of aligning with "QAnon-adjacent" thinking.
  • They focused the effort on justice for survivors, not partisanship.

  "It was dismissed initially on our side by, why are we engaging in conspiracy theories? ... This isn't serious, Ro." — Ro Khanna [05:09]

• Success against all odds:

  • The House passed their bill with overwhelming bipartisan support, neutralizing Trump's ability to veto.
  • Khanna notes congressional maneuvers are often written off as fantasy, but persistence matters.

  "Discharge petitions almost never succeed ... The idea that Donald Trump would sign the law was almost unthinkable." — Ro Khanna [06:10]

  "Sometimes you can build things that didn't exist. ... if you think out of the box ... Sometimes you can build things that didn’t exist." — Ro Khanna [07:53]

• Ongoing investigations and testimony:

  • The next step is obtaining testimony from Pam Bondi, specifically about FBI file redactions, lack of investigations into powerful Epstein associates, and rumors about hidden files relating to Trump and others [09:06–11:21].

  "Why has there not been a single investigation about Les Wexner and Leon Black and people who have credible allegations against them?" — Ro Khanna [09:12]

• Elite impunity and public anger:

  • Khanna frames the issue as “working class vs. the Epstein class,” reflecting a deep public anger at elite impunity.

  "Our politics is sort of the working class versus the Epstein class. And Democrats should drive that." — Ro Khanna [13:18]

2. Skepticism and Evidence in Pursuing Justice

[16:22–20:32]

• Addressing reckless accusations:

  • Khanna cautions against a witch hunt: Mere appearance in files doesn’t prove complicity in crimes.
  • Admits accidentally naming some individuals wrongly, corrected quickly.

  "It shouldn’t be a witch hunt. ... There has to be some kind of judgment and not just the tarring and feathering of anyone who happens to be in the file." — Ro Khanna [17:05]

• Limits of conspiracy theories:

  • Khanna avoids speculation about intelligence ties without evidence; suggests a presidential commission as the only responsible way to address such questions.

  "There are legitimate questions about whether or not he [Epstein] had ties to any intelligence agency. There's no evidence that I have seen corroborating that." — Ro Khanna [19:41]

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3. Opposition to the Iran War and U.S. Involvement Abroad

[22:02–29:03]

• Khanna’s firm antiwar stance:

  • Calls for no funding for an Iran supplemental, emphasizes opportunity costs: billions could go to domestic needs like free college or childcare.
  • Notes loss of American life and doubts that airstrikes will achieve regime change or make the U.S. more secure.

  "For that amount you could have free public college for everyone ... the cost to the American people is extraordinary." — Ro Khanna [22:18]

  "The reality is ... unless you're going to put in ground troops ... you're not going to create some kind of regime change." — Ro Khanna [22:58]

• Understanding the administration's motives:

  • Objective is to degrade Iran's capabilities, but Khanna blames Trump for the current crisis, citing Trump’s withdrawal from Obama’s nuclear deal as escalating risk [24:00–25:47].

  "It was his entire creation because he didn’t do the JCPOA. ... This was his entire creation." — Ro Khanna [24:29]

• Republican response and MAGA coalition:

  • Harder to persuade MAGA House members, though Khanna reports more grassroots/influencer awareness.
  • Trump’s denial and lack of a coherent aim are central critiques, with mockery about “declare victory” as a policy [25:48–28:31].

  "The president is just in denial. I mean, there’s no coherence to the policy." — Ro Khanna [27:44]

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4. Coalitions Across the Aisle and The Limits of Who to Partner With

[29:03–32:34]

• Kent's resignation and coalition politics:

  • Discusses the resignation of Joe Kent from Trump’s administration over the war—calls Kent's whistleblowing on lack of imminent threat worth listening to.
  • Acknowledges problematic views in past Kent and other right-wing figures, but believes in engaging across coalitions for focused legislative goals.

  "I believe in a coalition politics. ... Politics is about building coalitions while keeping true to your principles." — Ro Khanna [31:18]

• Engaging with controversial platforms and figures:

  • Khanna defends going on shows with hosts he doesn’t always agree with to reach broader audiences.

  "Going on shows, speaking to people, even if they have certain opinions that you don't agree with or even find gross, I think is part of living in a democracy." — Ro Khanna [32:16]

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5. Anti-Semitism, Criticism of Israel, and Democratic Party Discourse

[34:43–39:49]

• Drawing the line on hate vs. criticism:

  • Khanna insists he always calls out hate and anti-Semitism, but also warns against conflating that with legitimate criticism of Israel or purity tests within the party.

  "It's unfortunate when legitimate criticism of the government of Israel is conflated with anti-Semitism." — Ro Khanna [36:57]

• Disputes about terms and public statements:

  • Responds to criticism by ADL head Jon Greenblatt for using “neocons;” argues it’s a political term, not a coded slur.

  "I actually was confused why that term had anything to do with someone being Jewish or Israel. It was a worldview." — Ro Khanna [37:58]

• Tolerance for risk in public discourse:

  • Khanna argues Dems should risk mixing it up online, showing their real selves for democratic engagement.

  "People want to see the real you … they want to see you mix it up." — Ro Khanna [39:49]

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6. Democratic Party Coalitions and Electoral Lessons

[43:26–49:38]

• Populist/progressive vs. mainstream Democrats:

  • Miller points to recent election results where far-left candidates faltered, challenging the online narrative of a DSA/left takeover.

  "There is an imaginary consensus on the Internet that the entire Democratic coalition has decided they want to go fully in with the DSA left or the populist left. We're not seeing a ton of evidence of that in elections." — Tim Miller [43:43]

• Khanna’s perspective on endorsements and the coalition:

  • Khanna celebrates both left and center-left victories, supports endorsement by values rather than odds of winning.
  • Sees a unifying message around economic populism, opposing wars, and accountability for elites.

  "The party needs to be tackling wealth inequality, ... offering a vision, what I call a 21st century Marshall Plan for America or new economic patriotism." — Ro Khanna [44:48]

• Progressives in swing states:

  • Khanna insists economic populists can (and have) won swing states; Miller counters with centrist successes like Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania.

  "I certainly reject the idea that someone running on Medicare for all ... can't win a state like Pennsylvania." — Ro Khanna [47:04]

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7. The Future of AI, Big Tech, and the Democratic Agenda

[51:39–55:13]

• Khanna’s vision for AI policy:

  • Sees need for an "AI democratist" approach: not acceleration or doomerism, but ensuring benefit for ordinary Americans.

  "AI revolution working not just for tech billionaires, but for ordinary Americans." — Ro Khanna [52:14]

• Three proposals:

  1. National jobs agenda to address tech displacement.
  2. Change tax code to incentivize human employment.
  3. Promote worker ownership in tech enterprises.

  "We need to change the tax code, incentivize hiring people instead of hiring agentic AI. ... Think of how transformative it would be if ... million people working at Walmart had some percentage of profit or stock that they had." — Ro Khanna [52:24]

• Need for bold, visionary politics:

  • Criticizes both "central casting" swing-state blandness and excessive focus-grouping; argues for inspiring policies that address real 21st-century problems.

  "Our kids are not having the American dream. How are you going to capture the imagination? ... That's where the Democratic Party should focus." — Ro Khanna [54:41]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On cross-party coalitions:

  "What started with just four or five Republicans now has even Comer voting to subpoena Pam Bondi ... it shows that through just perseverance and hard work, if you get the right issue, it is possible to peel off Republicans." — Ro Khanna [07:05]

• On leadership focus if Dems win the House:

  "Partly because these survivors deserve justice ... also it's a broader look at what I would argue is a fundamental anger in this country that people who are wealthy and powerful are using their connections to shield themselves from the law, that there are two tiers of justice." — Ro Khanna [11:57]

• On media/policy engagement across divides:

  "The politics is about building coalitions while keeping true to your principles." — Ro Khanna [31:18]

• On tackling AI disruption:

  "We have an opportunity to have the most affirmative generational jobs agenda in this country that will put people to work." — Ro Khanna [52:14]

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Important Timestamps

• Introduction of Ro Khanna & Coalition Politics: [01:13–02:55]
• Epstein Files Coalition and Tactics: [04:05–07:53]
• Bondi Testimony & Accountability: [09:06–11:21]
• Class Impunity, Justice, and Political Anger: [12:22–13:18]
• Navigating Reckless Accusations in Epstein Probe: [16:17–20:32]
• Iran War Opposition and Costs: [22:02–24:00]
• Trump’s Iran Policy Critique: [24:00–25:47]
• Debating Anti-Semitism and Israel Criticism: [34:43–39:49]
• Election Results & Party Direction: [43:26–49:38]
• AI, Tech Policy, and Economic Vision: [51:39–55:13]

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, occasionally combative, and always pragmatic. Khanna underscores the value of political imagination, risk-taking, and the need for Democrats to engage earnestly with uncomfortable or cross-cutting topics in pursuit of liberal democracy and actual policy progress. He calls for a politics that is ambitious and responsive to real-world anxieties, especially about elite impunity, endless war, and rapid technological change.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want a comprehensive, inside look at the ongoing tectonic shifts in American politics and the progressive strategies debated at the heart of these changes.

Transcript

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[Megan McCardell]

been getting you down? I'm Megan McCardell and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a new show from Washington Post Opinion called Reasonably Optimistic. And it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. Every Wednesday, I'm going to talk to people who see a path forward.

[Ro Khanna]

It does seem to me that there

[Tim Miller]

is some awakening of a desire to act together to solve problems where they are.

[Bayard Winthrop]

You know, I am a believer in America and it's worth fighting for.

[Megan McCardell]

Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the show a California congressman representing much of Silicon Valley. He serves on the House Armed Services Committee and on the Oversight and Accountability Committee.

[Ro Khanna]

It's Ro Khanna.

[Tim Miller]

Welcome to the show.

[Ro Khanna]

Great to be back, man.

[Tim Miller]

Good to have you. I guess my first question for you, is there anybody else in Congress besides

[Ro Khanna]

you and Thomas Massie? Are you the only people actually in Congress?

That's not fair to all my colleagues. But we have been coincidentally at the center of the two most consequential issues, the Epstein falls and the war in Iran. And I think what we show with our work is that the coalitions are scrambling in American politics and that it's actually possible to find issues with disaffected MAGA voters. I mean, I would argue that the Epstein files is the first time since Donald Trump came down the escalator that we actually said, hey, Trump voters, what do you think? And can we work with you on an issue? And it turns out a lot of them thought that government had been corrupted, that powerful people, we're using connections to evade the law, in this case in the most horrific way, trafficking underage girls and raping underage girls. And we built the coalition on that. Similarly, a lot of them don't want us getting into war in the Middle east, don't want gas prices going up, don't want service members dying for another Middle east war. The boats on that one haven't quite materialized like the boats have on Epstein. But Epstein was an uphill fight as well, and I believe we can get to the same coalition on the war.

[Tim Miller]

Do you think the MAGA voters are coming? How does your man Thomas Massie feel

[Ro Khanna]

about his primary coming up?

[Tim Miller]

Obviously, Donald Trump was down there with Jake Paul in his district making the contrary case.

[Ro Khanna]

What's his sense for how things are going?

It's going to be a close race. He's of the view that Epstein, of course, his district supports him and they support him standing up to the president, standing up for survivors. Iran is a tougher case. He would be candid about it. And there is a rally around the flag among some Trump voters and it hasn't fully penetrated yet the arguments that he and others in MAGA are making that American service members are dying, that we don't need to be another middle in another Middle east war. But the primary is still 50, 60 days away, and I think a lot depends on the events in the Middle East.

[Tim Miller]

Let's do Epstein first, then we'll get to the war.

[Ro Khanna]

And some of the other topics I want to pick your brain on.

[Tim Miller]

We're glazing you at the top because

[Ro Khanna]

I've got some bones to pick with you at the bottom. Does that work?

[Tim Miller]

Is that okay?

[Ro Khanna]

I've been around long enough that I

[Tim Miller]

know how this works. Just take us back to the beginning

[Ro Khanna]

of the Epstein effort, when you and Massey are getting together on this.

[Tim Miller]

Because a lot of times in politics, things, once they've happened, feel inevitable.

[Ro Khanna]

It feels like, well, obviously that was going to happen in retrospect.

[Tim Miller]

But when you guys started this, there wasn't a ton of, I think, conventional

[Ro Khanna]

wisdom that you would end up getting the Epstein files released by an almost unanimous vote. Only one Louisiana congressman down here opposing you and getting it, you know, so overwhelming the vote that Donald Trump couldn't veto it, couldn't bully anybody. I mean, he tried to bully Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene and others and

[Tim Miller]

wasn't effective at the beginning of that.

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, did you have a sense that this was going to have the success that it has had just as far as these first steps towards transparency?

No. I mean, look, if Massie and I are known to be the mavericks that we're not supposed to be, Gad flies you.

[Tim Miller]

Mavericks is a positive word.

[Ro Khanna]

So I'm going to give you gadfly.

We weren't supposed to be at the center of the activity of the House. It was dismissed initially on our side by why are we engaging in conspiracy theories? Why are we engaging in something that is adjacent to QAnon. This isn't serious row. I had a senior person sit down with me saying, ro, you're supposed to be the future economy guy. You're supposed to talk about a substantive economic vision. You're tarnishing your entire thoughtful brand. And Massey had tell us who it was.

Who was that? So we know not to listen to their advice.

That'll be the last time they talked to me. Yeah, but, you know, there was a sense on our side that this was too conspiratorial, that Epstein had been dead a long time ago. And. And on his side, of course, there was a sense that he was taking on the powers to be. And it was an effort that neither of us thought would succeed. We were committed to it. We were willing to fight it. But discharge petitions almost never succeed. There have been, like, five of them that have actually become law. And the idea that Donald Trump would sign the law was almost unthinkable. We had assembled 70 to 80 Republicans willing to defy the veto. To this day, I don't think Donald Trump necessarily knows he sign my bill because we kept calling it the Massie kind of bill because we wanted it to seem more Republican and hide the fact that I had introduced it. And we didn't make it about Donald Trump in the beginning. We made it about the survivors. We got Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nancy Base, Lauren Boebert. Here's the point, though, Tim. What started out with just four or five Republicans now has even comer voting to subpoena Pam Bondi. It has the Oversight Committee having Republicans Tim Burchard and Luna voting with us. And it shows that through just perseverance and hard work, if you get the right issue, it is possible to peel off Republicans.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean, I think a good lesson here is sometimes I have listeners or colleagues or friends dismiss what happens on this podcast. Sometimes it's like we do fantasy politics. You know, when you're asking, like, why

[Ro Khanna]

can't people, you know, do a discharge petition to stop X for happening?

[Tim Miller]

Like, why couldn't Lisa Murkowski stop caucusing with her son? Like, why couldn't a Democrat, the Senate,

[Ro Khanna]

do what Tommy Tuberville did last time and block all promotions until y topic is achieved?

[Tim Miller]

And a lot of times that's just dismissed.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, there's like a sense, there's this learned knowing, well, politics is the

[Tim Miller]

art of the possible, you know, And I, and I do think that just remembering, like, how much of a long

[Ro Khanna]

shot this looked like as a start, as a good lesson, when thinking about other tactics and challenging these guys.

Yeah, I think our politics sort of has careened from a lethargic bureaucracy where people feel like government is just too slow and too unimaginative to Donald Trump, which is like, I'm just going to do whatever my gut tells me on the morning I wake up and spout off. And it's novel and it's spontaneous and it's action filled, but there's no substance there or no checks there, or no sense of expertise. And what we really, I think the country needs is sort of an imaginative, bold, action filled politics, which we haven't been able to build over the last decade. And I'm not saying that the Epstein coalition is sort of the answer to all our politics, but it does show that if you think out of the box and you think of alliances out of the box and you're willing to fail, because Massey and I have failed a lot. Sometimes you can build things that didn't exist. And I just, I think we need more of that in this, in our politics, in this country.

[Tim Miller]

You mentioned the Bondi testimony.

[Ro Khanna]

So that's news this week that Shelby testifying.

[Tim Miller]

What, what type of stuff are you

[Ro Khanna]

wanting to, to get from that testimony?

Well, first of all, it'll finally be her answering questions instead of just insulting every member of Congress or senator who asked.

Well, there'll be that too, I think.

Well, there will, but it'll be of behind the closed doors in terms of a deposition. I mean, I guess she could insult the lawyers, but some of this is going to be staff just asking her basic things, like why were the files scrubbed in March by the FBI and why has none of that been unredacted? Because that's where the survivors named a lot of the rich and powerful men. Why has there not been a single investigation about Les Wexner and Leon Black and people who have credible allegations against them of either recruiting or providing enormous financial benefits to Epstein or in some cases, allegations of sexual abuse. Like why have there been no investigations opened? Why is it that these 3 million files are still being protected? Why did she hide the three of the witness interviews about the person who alleged that Donald Trump raped her when she was 13? Put aside whether that's a true or not allegation, no one knows, but it is factual that they covered up three of the witness interviews with her that mentioned Donald Trump. So, like that. I think there, there are 20 at least.

[Tim Miller]

How about the share file? That's what, that's what the initial reporting

[Ro Khanna]

was, that there was a Share file that listed all of the Trump mentions. Like when they had the initial people going through the files, they like gathered all the times he was mentioned and put it somewhere. And that supposedly live reports that that exists. And again, like, we don't exactly know what's in that, but why wouldn't they show us?

We've seen the PowerPoint presentation where they sort of mention the public figures who've, who've been involved in the files. But yeah, we have not seen the more detailed share files of all the mentions in a summary that that would be something that is worth asking her. And you know, she may not be attorney general that much longer. We don't know. I mean, just through rumor mill. And so she's got to be careful answering questions under oath to the committee. I mean, even Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton were very careful and they participated for five hours answering every question.

[Tim Miller]

Do you think you've overcome the skepticism on this topic within your own caucus? And I ask that in the context of assuming the Democrats take control of

[Ro Khanna]

the House in the fall next year,

[Tim Miller]

you know, you're going to have to

[Ro Khanna]

prioritize what type of oversight you want to do because there's so much corruption happening in this administration. And you know, to me, I think the Epstein issue and the crypto corruption are the things that jump to the top that require, you know, Benghazi level

[Tim Miller]

attention, if you will.

[Ro Khanna]

And I'm wondering if you think that you'll have the support from leadership to, to do what's necessary to investigate this once you guys have the gavel.

I do. I think Robert Garcia has been terrific as the ranking member of oversight. And my hope is that oversight will really focus on this. And I'm confident that we will. Partly because these survivors deserve justice. Right. I mean, there's not a day that goes by that I don't have a text or call or email from a survivor saying this person raped me or abused me is in the files often not someone very famous. Why are they not being investigated? Can you pass this on to the Justice Department? Why are they not prosecuting them? So just as a matter of actual justice, but also it is a broader look at what I would argue is a fundamental anger in this country that people who are wealthy and powerful are using their connections to shield themselves from the law, that they're two tiers of justice, that the system is just not working for most Americans who have to worry about their car being booted if they have too many parking tickets, and yet they watch these people do the most. Heinous thing. I mean, we all agree that raping underage girls or trafficking underage girls is about the worst thing you can do as a human being. And they watch people being affiliated with that at the best case and getting away with it. In my view, our politics is sort of the working class versus the Epstein class. And Democrats should drive that.

It's a good line.

[Tim Miller]

The frustrating thing for people is the co conspirators.

[Ro Khanna]

I think at this point.

[Tim Miller]

Right. It's like, okay, so there's been progress. Files have been released. There's a lot of smoke. We've learned a lot of gross stuff

[Ro Khanna]

about some of Jeffrey Epstein's friends and people that were emailing him, well, after we knew what type of behavior he was complicit in. The Larry Summers of the world.

[Tim Miller]

There have not been much progress. It doesn't seem like in identifying the

[Ro Khanna]

people that you're talking about, you talk to a victim, they say, this is somebody that raped me or that was know, involved with. Epstein was there when I was trafficked.

[Tim Miller]

That does kind of feel like a

[Ro Khanna]

missing piece still at this point.

Yeah, There hasn't been accountability. I mean, I mentioned two people who should be investigated with Les Wexner and Leon Black, like that. There are many others, some of them not famous. So if I just mentioned names, it would have very little context. But there have not been any investigations. Forget that. There have not been prosecutions. There have not been investigations. How do you not have someone show up to Bill Gates and ask him about what he saw, what he knew, did he have knowledge? Right. I'm not saying that Bill Gates did anything illegal, but you have all of this correspondence. A normal investigation would do that. None of that has happened and that has just infuriated people. What now is obvious is that what Massey and I were talking about wasn't some kind of hoax. It didn't just involve Maxwell and Epstein. That was the big thing. Oh, these are just two people. One of them's dead. Why are you focused on it that the survivors were actually right and people are seeing it for the firsthand how many people were involved in either covering up for abuse or actually participating in it? But there have been no investigations, whereas there have been in other parts of the world. It's kind of this irony. Two American Congress people got this thing released, and yet the rest of the world is taking it far more seriously than our own government.

Yeah, Bannon. I mean, a million examples. He's another one, right?

He's another one. Of course he should be investigated. I mean, There everyone's like, well, don't you believe in due process? Yeah, I believe in due process, but due process doesn't mean you don't investigate.

[Tim Miller]

And the other process is in the word. There. There needs to be a process. There needs to be a process.

[Ro Khanna]

And the other thing that comes up is, well, well, haven't we set a terrible precedent in terms of releasing these files, even if someone is in charge? First of all, you had cases here in 1996 of complaining to the FBI. Nothing happened. Someone was raped in Santa Monica, went to the police and they said, come back. She went back after a week, didn't file charges. I mean, time and again, these women were abandoned and abused. So it required a release to understand the miscarriage of justice. But, you know, if. If there's another miscarriage of justice and you can get the entire United States House of Representatives, Senate to pass a bill in and the President to sign it, then fine, release it. But it's not like this is some kind of precedent. It requires a Herculean act of the United States Congress to get it done.

[Tim Miller]

Last thing on this. And I think obviously the more important

[Ro Khanna]

thing is getting justice for the victims.

[Tim Miller]

But there are some out there that

[Ro Khanna]

are saying that there have been some reckless accusations. I guess you mentioned they said there were six wealthy men that you mentioned. A couple of them turned out were wrongly kind of named. I guess one of them was a car mechanic in Georgia, and the other one was a home improvement store owner in Queens. Maybe they were in the lineup or something. I, I had Sagar on last week. And, you know, there are things thrown about, about Epstein being an agent of Security Services or he's doing compromise on people.

[Tim Miller]

You know, there, there's. There has been some stuff out there

[Ro Khanna]

that hasn't really been matched with, like, what we actually know. Like, what's your sense of, like, kind of navigating that line?

That's very fair. Let me make a few points and address the specifics. First, it shouldn't be a witch hunt. Just because someone is in the Epstein files or just because someone may have had an embarrassing email on cheating on their spouse doesn't mean that they engaged in the kind of horrific behavior that we're after. So I think there has to be some kind of judgment and not just the tarring and feathering of anyone who happens to be in the file. I've never said that this should be a. A witch hunt. Second, the issue you mentioned is a real one. When Massey and I went, we found a list of coconspirators who had not been identified. Part of our problem is that they've been protecting so many people.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

Who of the people that we mentioned turned out, should have been mentioned? Les Wexner. That in part led to the subpoena of him and an attention on him. And Sultan, the CEO of the Port of Dubai. It led to him resigning.

[Tim Miller]

His name is. While we're doing corrections, his name is just Sultan.

[Ro Khanna]

On a previous podcast, I called him the Sultan. Like it was.

[Tim Miller]

Like it was an honorific. So, you know, not that we give a fuck about what somebody who engaged in that type of behavior, but, you know, we.

[Ro Khanna]

It's important to get the facts anyway.

[ZipRecruiter Ad Voice]

Continue.

[Ro Khanna]

Now, Massey and I asked the Justice Department for clarification on who those men were. In fact, Massey said, could it have been a lineup? They didn't do that. I then did go read the names. Two of them were appropriate. Four of them turned out to just be part of the lineup. Now, their names actually should be released under the Epstein files. There's no protection for the lineup, but there should have been context, given that the Justice Department didn't end with redactions. And as soon as I learned, I corrected it on social media. It went viral. I said, look, these people were just in a lineup. I called the one person who I knew. I said that I will make it abundantly clear they had nothing to do with it. They were just part of a lineup.

[Megan McCardell]

They.

[Ro Khanna]

But the broader problem here is the Department of Justice's unwillingness to provide any context to the documents like they were supposed to, Unwillingness to meet with the Massey or me, their excessive redactions. And most people see that, and those who are trying to weaponize that, to discredit the effort to seek justice, are just not going to be credible. I think that answered your question. Right. Was there any other aspect to it?

[Tim Miller]

You know, the conspiracies? Like, is he an intelligence agent? Like, you know, is there compromise? Was it. Was he, you know, on behalf of countries blackmailing people?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I've been very careful on that. Right. There's reporting by Julia Brown, and Miami Herald was the best, and I've been covering this for years. There are legitimate questions about whether or not he had ties to any intelligence agency. There's no evidence that I have seen corroborating that. There just are questions. There's nothing that we will get in the Epstein files that would answer that question, because that information is likely classified, and the law does not require the release of unclassified information. But what I've Said is a president should appoint a commission on this matter to do a report to the American public to answer any of these, any of these questions. But I have never engaged in any of that speculation on conspiracy because I don't want this to be not factual.

[Tim Miller]

I guess I'm going to pull behind

[Ro Khanna]

the curtain on the ad here.

[Tim Miller]

What the script says is if you're

[Ro Khanna]

anything like me, you're desensitized to the dozens of notifications on your phone each day. But I'm even further than desensitized.

[Tim Miller]

I am permanent do not disturb. Okay, you would think that would mean

[Ro Khanna]

that I live in peace, but no, it just means I'm looking at my phone constantly at all times.

[Tim Miller]

But permanent do not disturb. And I've got things coming in from

[Ro Khanna]

everywhere from all different types of messaging apps. Now it's impossible to manage.

[Tim Miller]

So as a result, I miss some stuff. I miss a lot of stuff. And that's gonna be a problem if the latest ping is coming from your security camera.

[Ro Khanna]

And ignoring it could spell disaster.

[Tim Miller]

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[Ro Khanna]

Easy to use.

[Tim Miller]

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[Ro Khanna]

you're working on with Massey and others. The Iran war resolution they pushed forward without congressional approval. What is the right thing for you guys to be doing now to try to combat what the administration is doing with prosecuting this war?

We should make it clear we're going to give no funding for any Iran supplemental. I mean to think about this, we've been there about 20 days. $2 billion each day you could have free public college for everyone in America. For that amount you could have for 30, 40 days in Iran, childcare for everyone in America. At $10 a day, you could build a thousand new trade schools.

$10 a day for childcare.

That's $10 a day paying child care workers daycare, $25 an hour. Yeah, yeah, it's a Canada model, costs about $80 billion, but my free college costs about $40 billion. So the amount of cost to the American people is extraordinary. And then you look at the loss of life. I mean, over 13American service members dead. The reality is that we're putting more people at risk. And unless you're going to put in ground troops, which I am totally opposed to, very unlikely that you can create some kind of regime change. We've got common aid out. And Khamenei Jr. His son was 56 in. And yeah, you can kill some of the military leaders, but you still have a repressive regime. And then they're striking the Strait of Hormuz, and I mean, gas prices go up. And by the way, the enriched uranium, the 60% enriched uranium, the 400 kg, is under the ground. And there's no evidence that we've actually even been able to destroy that. We didn't destroy it in June. It likely requires diplomacy. So this is a war that is hurting our economy, that is making it harder for us to invest here at home. It is putting our troops at risk. It's not making us more secure. And Democrats should just make that argument.

[Tim Miller]

What's your understanding for why we're doing this?

[Ro Khanna]

To degrade Iran's capability. I mean, that's what I've said at some point, like, just say, president Trump, you declare victory and stop the war. Because I don't want the war to continue. I don't want this to be a political issue. I just think this is hurting America. And you could say, okay, we're degrading their capability, degrading their ballistic missiles. The jcpoa, which I supported. Obama had negotiated something where he had 3.67% enrichment of uranium before the JCPOA was 20% enrichment. At 3.67% enrichment, which would have been 15 years. They wouldn't have not been able to enrich enough uranium to do a nuclear bomb. It would have taken at least a year to be able to do that, and then another year to get it onto a ballistic missile, and he had an entire deal. Then Trump comes out, he rips it up, and the enrichment goes to 60% enrichment. After Trump rips it up, a point where Iran could have actually gotten a bomb within one to Two weeks or at least enrich the uranium within one to two weeks. So this was his entire creation because he didn't do the jcpa. Then Oman tried to negotiate and he's unwilling to negotiate. And so they still have enriched uranium. They're not. It's buried underneath. I suppose you have degraded their ballistic missile capability. So there is this sense that it would be harder even if they had enriched uranium to put it on a missile. But it's an awful cost and an awful loss of life simply to degrade a country's military capability.

I mean, the consequences here are worse than people realize right now. I just think that if you look at kind of the oil prices, futures and what we're actually seeing in the strait, listen to experts at how long it would take to fix even if you did cut and run today.

[Tim Miller]

I just wonder when you talk to

[Ro Khanna]

the Republicans that you were communicating with on Epstein stuff, the MAGA types, the

[Tim Miller]

unlikely allies, the Lauren Boebert's, the Nancy Maces, this crowd privately, is there any sense that they recognize just how big of a catastrophe this is for them? Do you see any sense of the ice cracking among some of your colleagues?

[Ro Khanna]

Harder with colleagues, it's been more with MAGA influencers, MAGA leaders, but with colleagues. I think there was a false confidence after Trump in his first term got Soleimani after he captured Madero. And I still think it hasn't dawned on him that this thing just isn't going to be over. And declare victory gets a saying it too. Right. They may still keep bombing ships in the Strait of Hormuz. So we've got to get them to stop. There's a little bit less chest thumping, but it's not at a point where I would say okay, Massie and I should reintroduce the war powers resolution. We've got the votes, they're still with the President. And I don't think Massie will mind my sharing that this is still an issue where a lot of the Republican base voters are giving the President the benefit of the doubt.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, here's the President this morning. I wonder what would happen if we finished off what's left of the Iranian

[Ro Khanna]

terrorist state and then let the countries that use it. We don't be responsible for the so called strait. That would get some of our non responsive allies in gear and fast.

[Tim Miller]

So now the current plan I guess is to just brutalize the regime.

[Ro Khanna]

Whatever we broke it, you deal with it. And maybe the Strait gets open, maybe it doesn't. That's the plan.

Now Yeah, I mean, I guess he just doesn't understand global supply and demand oil. You know, you just stop the oil flowing in the Strait of your Musa, it's going to push prices up for everyone.

[Tim Miller]

Great. For Midland.

[Ro Khanna]

It's not like it's some theoretical claim. Just go to like the gas pump and you'll see your gas prices are up. That's because the, of the bombing in the Strait of Hormuz. So, you know, the president is just in denial. I mean, there's no coherence to the, to the policy and the, the idea that we're going to just terrorize the regime. What are we, what are we going to do? I mean, even he at times has said, well, I don't want the protesters to just get slaughtered. Like, I don't understand what the plan is. Even in Iraq, where we had a failed regime change war, we had to put in ground troops. I don't know a scenario where through just airstrikes and bombing, you're going to change your regime. So it's unclear what the goal is.

The Libya model.

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Looking into the Libya model, a roaring success. Micropenis. Mark Levin says you're awful for not

[Ro Khanna]

supporting our troops against the terrorists. What do you think about that?

Well, look, I support our troops not getting killed. I support our troops making sure that we only use them and ask them to serve. If there's an attack on the homeland. And if Massie and I had our resolution passed, 13American service members may be alive. And I don't want more members dying.

[Tim Miller]

What do you think about how to

[Ro Khanna]

process what we saw yesterday from Joe Kent? Joe Kent was leading the counterterrorism, was the counterterrorism chief for Trump, the administration. He wrote a letter resigning. I guess he presented that letter to

[Tim Miller]

the vice president, which is kind of an interesting political subplot on Monday. Not to the president.

[Ro Khanna]

Oh, J.D. vance really doesn't want this war or something.

[Tim Miller]

You know, it's like, do you usually resign to the vice? Is that how things work? The vice president? So, you know, is there a splinter, a splinter administration happening? It's something to monitor. You know, look, in the resignation letter, he said a lot of things similar to what you just said.

[Ro Khanna]

He also specifically laid out that, you know, he doesn't, he's a veteran himself, so he doesn't want people dying in a war that there's no rationale for a war that Israel has pushed us into.

[Tim Miller]

Also in the letter, he kind of

[Ro Khanna]

had some tropes about Israel also being responsible for past actions in Iraq and Syria that are a little less based in fact. And he has a history of dabbling. He's been on podcasts with some of the Nazi youth kids and all that.

[Tim Miller]

How do you think about that?

[Ro Khanna]

He's gonna be on Tucker Carlson's podcast.

[Tim Miller]

I think today, somebody from within the

[Ro Khanna]

administration, from the American first wing, who is conspiratorial, who has had some anti Semitic relationships in the past, resigning over this war, is that somebody like Thomas Massie that's worth working with, or how do you think about that?

Well, certainly it's worth listening to him on the fact that there was no imminent threat. He was the senior person of counterintelligence, and he's basically a whistleblower, saying that there was no reason, as he saw it, of American national interest to go into Iran and that Trump is betraying the very promises he made voters to keep us out of these Middle east wars. It was the most dishonest campaign. They said Kamala Harris was going to do this. I mean, they literally campaigned saying Kamal Harris was going to start World War III and war in Iran. And J.D. vance was out there saying, absolutely not. It was not in America's interest. And Kent is just calling them out. Now, obviously he's had problematic statements and he's engaged in certain conspiratorial theories, and we have to be careful not to just embrace his entire narrative. But I believe in a coalition politics. I mean, I've gotten criticized recently that I went on Hassan Piker's Stream and I've got on Sean Ryan. I've gone, you know, when you go on some of these podcasts, they're not all going to have every statement that you agree with. But you know, FDR worked with representative rank and a rank racist and rank anti Semite to do the Tennessee Valley Authority. I mean, the politics is about building coalitions while keeping true to your principles. And I guess I would say in this case, the principle is we shouldn't be there in Iran. We don't have to agree with all his other conspiratorial comments.

I'm with you on that.

[Tim Miller]

I'm also with you on going on

[Ro Khanna]

the podcast, going on the shows. I mean, we saw how it worked out when the Democrats were like, we

[Tim Miller]

shouldn't go on Joe Rogan. You know, he has some problematic views.

[Ro Khanna]

Like that strategy didn't work, obviously. So I think going on shows, speaking to people, even if they have certain opinions that you don't agree with or even find gross, I think is part of living in a democracy. And a free society. And it's both smart and what we should do in a pluralistic country.

And you know that when you do it, you're going to make a mistake or someone's going to say something terrible that you don't refute right away or you let me speak. And so, like, it's easy to say, let's just go. And then the point is you're going to go and you're going to get criticized and you're going to say things you may not like. And so I think there has to be a greater tolerance for risk, in my view, in our party.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. Though I could also say some of

[Ro Khanna]

these guys are pretty dumb. You know,

[Tim Miller]

I don't, I don't know. I think anybody who's like, we shouldn't go on Theo Vaughn's podcast because he

[Ro Khanna]

said some offensive things should watch some of the Obon's interviews. You know, Mark Cuban went on there and handled himself just fine. It's not exactly like doing Tim Russert

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[Ro Khanna]

here's maybe the area that I'm a little bit more conflicted about, which is

[Tim Miller]

there's a post, I guess, going around

[Ro Khanna]

social media, which is, I would love to see more Dems calling out anti Semitism on their own side with the same fervor. And you posted about that and said, I'm proud to stand with Grand Platinum Zoran Hasan. Problems with neocons in our Party who blundered us into Iraq, et cetera, et cetera.

[Tim Miller]

It's one thing to say, okay, I'm

[Ro Khanna]

going to go on these platforms, even if they have some problematic views.

[Tim Miller]

It's another thing to be like, well,

[Ro Khanna]

we shouldn't call out folks that are espousing anti Semitic or bigoted views of any kind.

[Tim Miller]

So how do you kind of think about appearing on the shows versus having

[Ro Khanna]

an obligation to call out hate and bigotry where you see it?

I think we absolutely have to call out hate and bigotry. I think the tweet I had, though I don't want to parse it, I said I was proud to stand with Platner and Madani and I would join Hassan.

[Tim Miller]

That's right.

[Ro Khanna]

So there are things that I disagree with with Hasan Piker. I mean, I. And when I go on on this stream, I disagree with them. And certainly I would and have called out anti Semitism. I've called out, you know, ugly chants in San Francisco where tax the rich became taxed the Jews. I called out recently, very ugly beating of IDF soldiers who were speaking Hebrew. People said, well, they're IDF soldiers. I said, so what? I mean, you can't just go beat up people even if they served in the IDF or speaking Hebrew. And I call that an act of anti Semitism. I've done town halls in my district on antisemitism. I had a father tell me about his daughter who is 13, who's afraid of having a menorah in her house. I mean, there's no doubt that anti Semitism has increased. I have nieces who are Jewish because we have a. My brother is Hindu and married somewhat Jewish. So we have a Hindu Jewish family in ours. So I'm very sensitive to that. But what I think is unfortunate is when legitimate criticism of the government of Israel is conflated with anti Semitism or if there are kind of these purity tests that. Let's not go talk to anyone who we may think has said something that is racist, sexist, Islamophobic, anti Semitic. I just don't think that's how we're going to build a multiracial democracy and earn people's respect if we're shaming them and always putting them on the defensive.

[Tim Miller]

One of those examples like the adl,

[Ro Khanna]

Jonathan Greenblatt, called out you and Chris Van Hollen for perpetuating anti Semitism by blaming Israel and neocons for the war, the Iran war that's happening now. And that's kind of a shorthand for what he said, but that was like, basically what it was. I mean, well, I don't understand why

neocons has anything to do with being Jewish. Neocons, as I understand the term, is people who believe that we can spread democracy through military interventionism. It was kind of a doctrine that George W. Bush and Dick Cheney adopted.

[Tim Miller]

Don Rumsfeld, I'm pretty sure, was a gentile.

[Ro Khanna]

I actually was confused why that term had anything to do with someone being Jewish or, or Israel. It was a worldview, by the way. A worldview that had some reasoning to it that said democracy is better than not democracy and America should use its military power to do that.

Yeah.

And my view is that a restraint is better. So I was puzzled by Green, but I've known Greenblatt. He's been in my office and you know, the one thing is. And my team's like, just ignore it. Just ignore it. And you know, I hate the act saying like, the guy for, for Trump and is politicized the adl, but I don't want to be doing that. But what, what has changed is there's no longer going to be people just lying down and taking that kind of a smear. We're going to push back. But I, I'd love to get to a place where we can all say, yes, anti Semitism is a real problem. Yes, there's more fear and, and anti Semitism in this country. We need to address it. But we also need to understand that there are very, very legitimate criticisms of the government of Israel and what happened

in Gaza when the government of Israel's involvement in what we're doing now, the idea that critiquing that is the same as anti Semitism, I think is a strategy that's going to backfire for Greenblatt and the adl. And I don't think that that's something they should be looking into.

[Tim Miller]

I find it interesting that you're staff

[Ro Khanna]

is trying to keep the dog on the chain here.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, it's been a while now. They don't, they don't, they don't. Not just letting Roby row.

[Ro Khanna]

Think I get into sometimes too many needless fights on X. And you know, they're like, well, why can't you just focus on, you know, the, your economic. We shaded AI. Which, which I do. But, you know, people, people want to see the real you. They, they, they want to see you mix it up. And anyway, that's who I am.

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

One of my colleagues asked me about that as well.

[Ro Khanna]

They're like, why don't you ask him

[Tim Miller]

why he has to weigh in on everything, why he's so out there and everything. I'm on your side of that. What do you mean? I feel like sometimes people take the wrong lessons from Trump and not the right lessons. They take whatever lessons they want, but it's just like, voters want to know what folks think about things. One of my frustrations is there's this

[Ro Khanna]

thing that you hear from Democratic strategists. It's like, we got to focus on kitchen table issues.

[Tim Miller]

And it's like, you don't think that the war in Iran and why we're there is a kitchen table issue? Like, you don't think Epstein is a kitchen table issue. That's what they're fucking talking about at their kitchen table. Like, they are also talking about gas prices. Like, you don't think they're talking about that too? Like, ignoring that is crazy.

[Ro Khanna]

And you want to have a conversation like you would have at a living room or kitchen table, which is not like, well, we need to talk about affordability and the price of eggs or something. I mean, I'm not like, who talks like that? People are like, wow, did you see what happened at the Epstein Post? That was kind of crazy. Did you see, like, Savannah Guthrie's mom was kidnapped? Like, why. Why was she kidnapped? Did it have something to do? Absent. No, it didn't have something to do, Epstein. Like, it's, it's. Ordinary Americans have tons of opinions on everything, and a lot of them are not shy to express it. And so I have this incredible opportunity to be in the United States Congress and I have a review on issues, and I'm going to be out there. I like debating it out and mixing it up, and I like being engaged. And to me, I just think we need more of that spontaneity, that a willingness to. To engage with folks, not just politically. But I. That's the only hope we have of kind of finding some common ground and. And getting a new national purpose.

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[Tim Miller]

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[Tim Miller]

Let's mix it up then.

[Ro Khanna]

I'd like to mix it up.

[Tim Miller]

You were 0 for 4 in your

[Ro Khanna]

endorsements last night in Illinois.

[Tim Miller]

Bernie was also 0 for 3.

[Ro Khanna]

Justice Democrats is one of the, whatever, the kind of super PAC that's aligned with the squad type candidates lost their races.

[Tim Miller]

I think that there is a imaginary consensus on the Internet that the entire

[Ro Khanna]

Democratic coalition has decided they want to go, you know, fully in with the DSA left or the populous left.

[Tim Miller]

And we're not seeing a ton of

[Ro Khanna]

evidence of that in elections on the ground. I mean, obviously Zoran won in New York City, but, you know, whether it be the New Jersey or Virginia governor's race last night in Illinois, you know, a lot of more mainstream Democrats are winning. And I'm wondering how you think whether that's the actual results of the elections are impacting the way you're thinking about the coalition right now.

Well, I think the coalition is broad and Mixed. I mean, I had campaigned for Abigail Spanberger, for Mikey Sherrill, for Zoran. All the wings of the party should be together for 2026. I do think we've had a lot of progressive victories with Zoran, with Anna Lilia in New Jersey. I mean, let's see how thanks to

[Tim Miller]

APAC for that one. Nice assess from AIPAC in New Jersey going after Tom Malinowski and accidentally electing the squad candidate with their advertising. But okay, yeah, sure, yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

But I mean, she did well. She would have been a close second. I look at Kat did very well. She came with like three points. And at 26, you did much better than I did when I first ran for Congress of 27. I got killed. Right. So I, I think there's a progressive energy. We could debate about, you know, what part of the party it is. But to me, I don't endorse candidates being like, oh, are they going to win or not? I endorse people based on my values. We've had a track record, I take a, a number of them surprising like Anna Lillian winning people like Graham Platner who I think will win the primary and the General Zoran who obviously surprised. And then when you do endorsements, you have your share of losses. But to me, the party needs to be tackling wealth inequality, tackling the fundamental economic divides, offering a vision, what I call a 21st century Marshall Plan for America or new economic patriotism. How are we going to in a future economy with AI and technology, make sure every family, every community as economic independence? We've got to be the party that says no to these wars. We've got to have moral clarity, in my view on Gaza and what happened. And then we need to be a party that is for elite accountability. And those elements, you can debate whether it's more progressive as I am or is it more center left. But those elements I think can be fairly unifying for the party heading into 2026.

[Tim Miller]

How do you process Josh Shapiro though,

[Ro Khanna]

in this frame, just for one example? I mean, he's running as pretty straight central left.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no, but I mean like his political success. Right. I think that there's a lot on the progressive left that say rightly they look at the Hillary and Harris campaigns

[Ro Khanna]

and are like, hey, we've got to do something different, we've got to change. But then their answer to that is the thing we got to change is we can't do this corporatist center left. We need something more Bernie. We need more Bernie Populist.

[Tim Miller]

But there isn't a ton of examples

[Ro Khanna]

of progressive populists winning in swing states. And you have somebody like Josh Shapiro who is so popular in Pennsylvania that he's up for reelection and the swing state is a Democrat and it's like he doesn't even really have a challenger.

I grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. My parents.

[Tim Miller]

How do you kind of process that if somebody thinks the party should do more progressive populism? Not a ton of success in swing

[Ro Khanna]

states for that model. The Josh Shapiro models being overwhelmingly successful so far. What do you think about that?

I think Bernie would have won a lot of those swing states in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin. I think you have a economically populous message.

Martin o' Malley might have won too, though. We'll never really know.

Bernie won 23 states, though. I mean, Bernie won Michigan in the primary in 2016.

I mean, Hillary lost a bunch of states she won the primary in too, though.

[Tim Miller]

You know, that's. That doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Ro Khanna]

My view is that someone who has a strong economic message in dealing with the economic divides and offering a bold vision going forward is going to be able to unify the party and win. And then maybe someone like Josh Shapiro and maybe someone who's progressive. I think the Democrats are going to win in 26 and 28 and there'll be a fight in the party for which direction. But I certainly reject the idea that someone running on Medicare for all or taxing billionaires or raising the living wage can't win a state like Pennsylvania. I mean, Fetterman, when he ran, ran as a fairly economic populist justice for Conor Lamb.

[Tim Miller]

We talk about that a lot around here. Do you want to put your endorsement Kiss of death. I'm just te you on anybody in the California governor's race running.

[Ro Khanna]

Where are you running?

[Tim Miller]

California governor's race? No, no, in your state there's a, there's a very wild primary happening.

[Ro Khanna]

It's a strange, strange race. The California governor's race.

[Tim Miller]

Is there anybody you like in that primary?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I've endorsed. Probably a bad day to announce it. I already endorsed Tom Steyer, I think, you know, I think the race is coming down to Steyer and, and Swalwell. I like Swalwell. He's a colleague of mine. He's a neighbor. But Steyer, you know, shares my view on single payer healthcare and fighting for that. He shares my view on taxing billionaires more. He shares my view on the importance of PG&E becoming a customer owned or citizen owned utility. You know, some people view maybe I should do it more. Some people do these endorsements based on a calculation of who's going to win. I've done them based on who I like, who I know and shares my values. And I think our track record is about 40 or 50% for the cycle.

[Tim Miller]

I'm just picking on you. I like the San Jose mayor in the California governor's race. He's got no chance, but okay, but, you know, whatever.

[Ro Khanna]

He's been a very good mayor. He's in my district. I like him. I just think he got in a lot late. I mean, you know, it's a big state. It's uphill. It seems like. I mean that just based on the polling,

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[Tim Miller]

We're running out of time, but I

[Ro Khanna]

do just want to pick your brain real quick on two other things.

[Tim Miller]

One is just how Democrats should think

[Ro Khanna]

about and talk about AI and these big tech oligarchs.

[Tim Miller]

Right?

[Ro Khanna]

Because I do think you have this kind of tension between a populist, anti corporate, anti oligarch message, which I think is important, and also recognizing that, like we can't just unplug the server of AI Like I wish we could, but it's real. We've got to be competitive. You know, you want to be a party that thinks about growth and, and making lives better for people, which I can maybe do. In some ways, it's going to make lives worse in other ways.

[Tim Miller]

So how do you navigate that?

[Ro Khanna]

As somebody who's kind of representing that part of the country?

I say I'm not a AI accelerationist, I'm not an AI doomer, I'm an AI democratist. We need the AI revolution working not just for tech billionaires, but for ordinary Americans. Let me give you three things that we can do. One is now AI is coming after young people's jobs in software, in customer support, kids of people who had college degrees. Look, when William Julius Wilson wrote about deindustrialization of black inner cities, the country just ignored them. Then we started to have like blue collar jobs being lost in places that were white working class. And Deaton and Case and others wrote about it and we started to pay some attention but still not have enough action. Now you got like Princeton graduates, kids who are having a hard time getting jobs. Now. The country is like suddenly like, oh no. Like our donors are telling us this. Suburban voters are telling us this. So we have an opportunity to have the most affirmative generational jobs agenda in this country that will put people to work. I am working on this idea of a Work for America program where we will hire young people, hire folks out of high school, trade schools, college, to rebuild their communities, to teach, to be counselors, to do infrastructure projects or to come to government and do a moonshot projects and renewable energy or making government more effective and let's put people to work and give us a new national purpose. Right. That would be one way to deal with some of the AI dislocation. The second thing is we need to change the tax code, incentivize hiring people instead of hiring agentic AI. Like, why do we have the incentives backwards? Third is have worker ownership. We have capital bias, right in AI, it rewards the capital class. And so think of how transformative it would be if, like, the million people working at Walmart had some percentage of profit or stock that they had. Peter Stavros at KKR has led on this as an ownership society. Democrats should put forward a vision of ownership for workers where they're benefiting from some of the gains of technology's productivity. So, you know, I have a lot of ideas on where I think that a fresh new economic vision for how we make this AI revolution work for everyone. And I guess, I guess ultimately to your question on these swing states or things, I mean, I just think the conventional way of looking at politics, I think is out the window of like, well, let's just see. How do we have a swing state governor? Jack doesn't make me yawn. So I don't mean this about him. He's a great guy. Like, you know, it's like, so boring or something. Like, let's have central casting swing state governor. And the American people, like, what they want is being inspired. What they want is who understands the future, who's going to actually solve our problems. Our kids are not having the American dream. How are you going to capture the imagination? And that, I think, is where the Democratic Party should focus instead of trying to cherry pick what people may want.

I could not be more aligned with you on that. Way too much conventional thinking, particularly looking ahead to 2028.

[Tim Miller]

So, you know, we're just going to leave it there. I've got. I had, like, three other things I wanted to pick your brain about, but it's. You're you. I think you've been cloned because you're everywhere.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, you now have an AI plan. We didn't get into the immigration plan. And so we can just have you back in a couple months, talk about the rest of my list. How does that sound?

Sounds great. Always enjoy being on.

All right, I appreciate it.

[Tim Miller]

That's Ro, Khanna, everybody else, I'll be back tomorrow. You'll get our live show in Dallas on tomorrow's episode, and then we'll have a regular show on Friday. We'll see. See you all then.

[Ro Khanna]

Peace.

[Tim Miller]

You can't keep running away from what is real and what is fake. The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper associate producer Ansley Skipper and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown, here's the truth.

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