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- [00:00]
Zerlina Maxwell
Foreign.
- [00:08]
Tim Miller
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a double dose today up in segment two. It's my girl, Zerlena Maxwell. But first, he's a U.S. senator representing Arizona. He was previously a U.S. congressman. He's deployed to Iraq in 2005 as a Marine infantryman. His name is Senator Ruben Gallego. How you doing, Senator?
- [00:27]
Ruben Gallego
Hey, good morning.
- [00:28]
Tim Miller
Good to see you. We were talking a bit in the green room about my friend Kari Lake. You defeated her in the election in 2024 solidly. Yeah. Yeah. Bad news for the Voice of America, maybe good news for the Senate. I wanted to ask you about that. Your point about solidly, because there were several Democrats that won in states where Trump won. But if you look at the data, it was mostly because those people voted for Trump and then went home. They're Trump only voters.
- [00:55]
Ruben Gallego
Yeah.
- [00:56]
Tim Miller
Your estate was the one example that was different. You had about 100,000 more votes than Kamala Harris. And so I do think that your case is kind of an interesting one to study. So I'm wondering if you've reflected on that, if you have any theories of the case. Was it something about you, something about Kerry, something about Arizona?
- [01:13]
Ruben Gallego
It was a combination of a lot of things. Like, look, we ran a very retail oriented campaign to begin with. Like, we literally were going to baseball games, putting together boxing, watch parties, rodeos, reaching out to Latino men, talking to everyone, talking to Republicans, going to rural Arizona. I also think we actually were talking about Arizona and the politics of Arizona, about what was happening there in a realistic manner. We were talking about the cost of everything going up and how we need to fix that. And that is a problem. And I think that was something that a lot of Arizonans appreciated because I think they were hearing from some campaigns like, no, things are good. I'm like, no, they're not. But we were also very serious about the border. And we talked about the border in a very serious Arizona way where we want more Border Patrol, we want bad people to get deported, we want immigration reform, we want to protect dreamers, and we want trade to keep continuing because that's really important to our business in Arizona versus someone like Carrie Lake who just talked about the border. What, like an East Coast Republican conservative thinks the border is in Arizona. Right. She would say that, you know, the cartels own the border, the Arizona border. Now, I'm sure on the Mexican side that does happen. But you're telling people, police chiefs in Nogales, in San Luis, US Citizens that they're essentially controlled by cartels when they're trying to bring in business or trying to start their families, everything else like that. And then she would go to the border, go to the border wall as if it was like, you know, the Great Wall in Jerusalem. And she put her hands up on the border wall while wearing a pistol, while packing a pistol, and put this on a commercial. Like, look, in Arizona, we literally send our teenage kids to Mexico for spring break, right? We cross that border every day. So when people started seeing Kayleigh talking about the border while she was wearing a weapon on her hip, no one could understand what she was trying to do. They didn't really match reality. And at the end of the day, that's why, you know, if you look at the exit polling, more people trusted me on the border than they trusted Kerry Lake. That didn't happen anywhere else in the country when it comes to Democrats running for Senate.
- [03:19]
Tim Miller
That's interesting, the immigration politics of this. There's a, there's a buzzy article in the New York Times by David Leonhardt this week where all of the, you know, all the coastal libs are like, whoa, this is interesting. Like they're just learning about something you've been working on. And he wrote about Denmark and met Fredrickson, who's kind of is a center left, but pretty left, really. It should be left left for America, but central left for Europe. Leader in Denmark and how they. The key difference between Denmark and these other countries in Europe is that they have taken the immigration challenge very seriously and, and reduced immigration levels. I'm wondering what your kind of thoughts are, if there are any lessons from you and from her or just broadly.
- [03:57]
Ruben Gallego
There are some lessons. I mean, we're not exactly analogous to Denmark. Our immigration is different. Our simulations. There's a lot of things here. But the fact that Democrats didn't take the border serious enough in the eyes of voters deteriorated our ability to talk to working class people and work for working class people. We are now out of power. And the fact that we hesitated shutting down the border as much as possible when we had hundreds of thousands of people coming to seek asylum. And when you talk to Democrats, and it's unfortunate, and some, not all Democrats, because most Democrats actually have a very normal position on the border. It's actually our kind of thought leaders and liberal groups that actually are out of the norm with Democrats. Most Democrats, normal Democrats, you know, especially Latino tribes, would tell you, I want legal immigration. I want dreamers to be US Citizens. I want people that have been here forever that haven't committed a crime to have an opportunity to become US citizens. I don't want to see 100,000 people showing up at the border and demanding asylum.
- [05:00]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [05:01]
Ruben Gallego
The thing that we messed up and the Democrats, you understand, is that instead of saying that when. When there was attempts to do that, there was huge pushback. I remember one thing. Do you remember when Kamala Harris said, don't come here. Don't come here.
- [05:13]
Tim Miller
Yeah, do not come.
- [05:15]
Ruben Gallego
Do not come. She got blasted by liberal groups for that. And that was the actual right attitude to have. And so because of that, what did we end up doing? We ended up losing. The Republicans have a trifecta. They're about to cut Medicaid. They're gonna gut the poor so they could feed Elon Musk and all his rich buddies. Because we couldn't get this one aspect down. Correct. Cause we were worried about this very small niche group of people that don't even represent the working class Democratic, average working class Democratic vote. So we have to figure out, what do we want as Democrats? Because we can't have it all. We can't have a very, very open border ideology, open immigration ideology, and then also want working class policies to exist and all these other issues, we have to say, like, you know what? We're going to be hard when it comes to certain border crossings. We don't want to see 100,000 people coming to the border. We don't think it's fair that they're abusing the asylum system. We do want immigration reform. And guess what? We also want higher standard of living for Americans. We want a living wage for Americans. We want to make sure Medicaid is safe. We want to make sure we actually have an opportunity to live and retire and truly live the American dream. But we can't have it all because it just doesn't work. That border does not exist.
- [06:28]
Tim Miller
I want to get back to the budget and the Elon stuff, but just one more thing on this immigration. How do you navigate this now? Okay, so that's all looking back. And now you're going forward. Trump's gonna do some stuff that I don't. Probably out of step for me and you on policy on immigration, but, like, where do you go? Like the sanctuary city stuff, you know, it's probably gonna be pretty popular. On the other hand, you know, we're sending Christian refugees from Iran to, like, camps in Panama. We're raiding Puerto Rican restaurants. How do you fight this fight? Now?
- [06:57]
Ruben Gallego
The way you fight it is you talk about it like you don't want to replace chaos on the border with chaos in our streets. And that's what Trump is doing right now. He's like grabbing people. Supposedly we started with violent criminals and now because they're incidentally they're hard to find and the numbers they were talking about are over exaggerated. Now they're just trying to find anybody and you're creating chaos, the whole thing. And it's inhumane when it comes to sanctuary cities. Look, I'll be honest, sanctuary cities are dumb. It's a dumb idea, it's a dumb concept. Right. And any city that has sanctuary, you should get rid of it and replace it with a real sane process, which is, you know, if you are in person who is illegally in this country and you are reporting a crime, we will not ask your stats. That's all you have to do. Right. That's what the aim of Secretary Seas was at the beginning of this. But also the Republican position saying we're going to gut and take away federal funds with sanctuary cities is also dumb because you're essentially punishing US citizens for policy decisions and you're letting the government, big government, decide what is a sanctuary city. It's not like some cities have this label, they just stamp. Right, Right. So Donald Trump and his cronies and likely Elon Musk are going to decide what is a sanctuary city. So they could go and they could take out those federal funds from those cities and guess who they're going to, where that money's going to end up going right back to Elon Musk and his crony. So they could have more and more money.
- [08:19]
Tim Miller
Yeah. So that takes us to the budget. So the House Republicans passed last night a non binding budget outline essentially by one vote. The outline would slash Medicaid, I'd balloon the debt, would reduce taxes for billionaires and corporations.
- [08:34]
Ruben Gallego
Americans would get fucked.
- [08:37]
Tim Miller
I guess it's only going to get tougher for them from here. But how do you think the Democrats on the Hill should be responding to them as they try to muddle through this?
- [08:47]
Ruben Gallego
Well, I know what I'm doing. I'm going to do save Medicaid town halls throughout Arizona, especially in rural Arizona, because 30% of Arizonans are on Medicaid.
- [08:55]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [08:56]
Ruben Gallego
If Medicaid expansion goes away, the rural hospitals will shut down first. As a matter of fact, they most likely will shut down because the urban hospitals will find ways to, you know, to save, to bring money and whatever it is, rural Arizona will be screwed the most. If you have an emergency, you're going to have to get kiloed to a trauma center. And I know this because when I originally wrote the Medicaid expansion law in Arizona back in 2013, the reason we were able to get Republicans to vote for in Arizona is because rural hospitals were about to shut down and the nearest hospitals for some places were going to be either 3 hour drives or 45 minute flights. And so what we need to do is bring this DC Medicaid conversation and we need to bring it home and we need to remind people what this means. They're not going after Medicaid because there's waste, fraud and abuse. They're going after Medicaid because it's the largest amount of money that they could get. That's not Medicare so far. Doesn't mean they won't go after Medicare. And it's not military spending, but it's attacking poor people so Elon Musk and his buddies can have their tax cuts. Like that's what it is. It's straight up wealth transfer from the poorest of Americans to the richest, richest of Americans who don't need it. But they're gonna cover it up because they know they have so much shame about what they're doing. And again, this will cause problems. This will have hospitals closing down. This is doctors leaving rural communities. These are people dying because you have any kind of insurance. And we're all doing it because again, somehow the ultra, ultra rich need another tax cut. I guess.
- [10:35]
Tim Miller
I hear you, I'm getting out of D.C. but one D.C. process question. Should you guys even entertain negotiations with these guys on the budget as long as Elon is illegally ransacking the government? I guess I don't even understand what the rationale would be for you guys to negotiate with them right now.
- [10:53]
Ruben Gallego
First of all, we shouldn't be negotiating yet because this is the Republicans responsibility to keep the government open, right? When they can't keep the government open, then they could come talk to us. But right now, hey, they just passed a budget resolution on their own. They just put a budget resolution in the Senate. Clearly they can pass stuff. So it's on them to keep government open. Once they fail, then we could then come talk to us. But in the meantime, like this is their, this is on that, this is entirely on them. This is their government. They own it, they break it. When they want to talk, then we'll talk. But it's not my responsibility, it's not the Democrats responsibility. It's a Republican responsibility to keep the government open.
- [11:27]
Tim Miller
You may need to talk to a couple of your colleagues about that, but we're, we're aligned.
- [11:31]
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- [12:31]
Tim Miller
The veterans. You're a veteran. I want to talk about the treatment of veterans. Nearly 6,000 have been fired across the federal government during this doge purge. We have had some like 22 year old Berkeley dropout tech like vapers who've gotten jobs. It's not like we've totally fired everybody. A couple of people have gotten jobs. 6,000 veterans have lost jobs. We got Andrew Lennox. One example news that I just saw.
- [12:55]
Ruben Gallego
Today is a Marine.
- [12:56]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah, right. He's working at the Department of Veterans Affairs. 10 year Marine infantryman lost his job.
- [13:03]
Ruben Gallego
Yeah.
- [13:03]
Tim Miller
Wondering what your, what your take is on all this?
- [13:06]
Ruben Gallego
You know, my take is actually more personal. Like my, my friends that I serve in the war with, some Trump supporters actually are losing jobs, are threatening to lose jobs, are having to write reports what they did last week, five things for their job. I guess whatever that stupid Elon Musk thing was. Report. Yeah. TPS report, the facts cover. But the other thing though is that, you know, it's not just that like this is the most anti veteran administration that this country has ever seen. 30% of the federal workforce are veterans. And so when you're arbitrarily cutting people, you're cutting veterans. And there's nothing more important, especially to returning veterans, to avoid severe cases of ptsd, to avoid homelessness. It's to get a job. If you get a job right away, the likelihood of you ending up in the streets are very, very slim. And one of the things I saw when I got back from the war. I was in Infantryman too. My guys and I saw unfortunately, way too much combat. Those of us that were able to get jobs right away adjusted better. We still have ptsd, a lot of us. And you can, and you could have a job, just, you know, because I know there's a lot of stigma out there. You could have a job, you could be a really well adjusted person, you could have a great career and so have ptsd. But again, it always helps, at least start somewhere. Now, what else are we seeing? Veteran crisis hotlines were randomly fired. Right? This is something we've been working on as Democrats and Republicans for years. For people to know if you call this number at any time, someone's going to talk to you so we can help you out. And vapor and big butts and big balls boys, all those Elon Musk guys, I don't know what their names are. Arbitrarily fired, these guys, because they don't know any better.
- [14:45]
Tim Miller
Well, they're veterans of the meme wars.
- [14:47]
Ruben Gallego
Yeah, I'm sure, sure they got carpal tunnel syndrome or whatever because they know nothing because they're, they're little boys and they think they know everything because they worked in Silicon Valley. They probably just were looking at a line item and didn't, you know, actually look into what now actually means. Like, well, you know, that is someone who is, you know, on the phone at home. I'll give you another good example. When it comes to remote working, a lot of veterans do remote work. Why? Well, some of them because they're married to other military personnel and it's easier for them to work remotely and find gainful employment where they are. Because a lot of times in these areas there's not much employment for spouses. Some of them actually have disabilities that by working from home, it allows them to actually be gainfully employed. Now they want to. This is another example from one of the guys I serve with. If he wants to get state employment and stay at home now, he has to go to his boss and not just say, hey, I have a disability, I have a disability rating. He has to explain to his boss exactly what his disability is, which is ptsd, unfortunately. And he's going to have to go into detail with that. And every time he either gets a new boss or gets promoted, he's going to have to go through that again, telling a stranger his personal health story in order for him to get dispensation to be able to work from home. And the other funny part about that, it's actually not funny is that I was talking to him. He told me that even if he goes back to work, he doesn't have a desk because they're calling everybody back. And so he's in this catch 22. So he is actually now going back to work. He is doing a 75 mile commute every day there and back in order for him to keep his job. And it's going to affect him mentally. And this is a man that served in combat. Very difficult, very difficult combat. And all he wants to do is continue working for the government. He's done great work for the government now for 10 years and if he messes up, they're going to get rid of him because he's just a line item to these tech boys.
- [16:42]
Tim Miller
That's efficiency in action there. 75 mile drive then not having a desk. My colleague Will Selber wrote this morning he's an Afghan veteran and he's kind of writing about these same issues that you're talking about but saying the Democrats have struggled to learn how to talk to veterans. I have struggled to talk to veterans at least in the kind of like post. Post fallout from all these wars.
- [17:05]
Ruben Gallego
Yes. I don't know why I don't have that problem. But yeah, I agree. I think it's weird that we do.
- [17:10]
Tim Miller
You do agree with that. I mean he wrote that the veterans exit polls so this is going to be off a little bit but said that 30% went to Trump over Harris and that's a wide margin. Like what, what do you, what do you think explains all that? That wasn't always true. I mean if you go back to the Kerry and even early Obama, you're talking about the Iraq war. And Democrats I felt like were much more in tune with veterans issues. Like what do you think's happening?
- [17:31]
Ruben Gallego
I think number one, economy. Let's go right there. Veterans are working class. This last go around, you know and I went to a lot of American Legion halls and met with a lot of, a lot of veterans. They were complaining first about the economy. These young veterans can't buy homes even though have access to the va. Home loan jobs aren't going as well for them. Very pissed off about the border situation. So that's right there. I think also it was a total lie and we know it. And I tried calling it out that Trump was the anti war president. Clearly that wasn't true. It's never been true. But they bought into it because it's something they actually do care about. And I also think that where we are strong with veterans, we don't emphasize as much as we did. Like, the president and the vice president passed the PACT Act. That was huge. Someone like me, I lived next to a burn pit for one month and some of my guys have already died due to burn pit disease. It's awful. But if it wasn't for Democrats, that doesn't pass. And remember, the burn pit decision had been around for a long time. It wasn't until we finally got the trifecta that we overrode the Republicans and pass it. And I think the one thing that Biden Harris team did not do is just really, really talk about that all the time. Right. The fact that we just don't own our big wins really, really matters. And that would have been a big one. Yeah.
- [19:00]
Tim Miller
That takes me to kind of the other thing I wanted to talk about. There's some frustration out there, I think, among Democratic grassroots, anti Trump folks in our camp, the anti Trump coalition, broadly like the Democrats in this first five weeks have like not been turning up the temperature as high as they can on Trump. A lot of power. I wonder what you think about that. Like, it does feel like there's some communication, you know, because I think both proactive communication, like you're talking about, about the PACT act, but also challenging these guys and drawing attention and not like ceding the, the battlefield to them on what they're doing. What do you think about that? What could you guys be doing different?
- [19:38]
Ruben Gallego
Well, I think first of all, you got to, before you get into the battlefield, you got to prepare the battlefield. And you know, I think a lot of groups on the left and the liberal groups are just in FaceTime. It's like, go in and fight them. Okay, great. The problem is like, for the first five weeks, the American public was not there. So you're going to go fight and you're going to have 30% of the people behind you. Right. Number two, what are you fighting? Right. So what we need to do is be fighting for people to understand that nothing is changing. Actually, things are getting worse. So instead of us talking about usaid, we should be talking about the fact that this president's causing chaos and eggs. Prices are going up, this president is causing chaos, and the cost of housing has not gone down. Everything that he is doing is going to increase the cost of care, health care, gut Medicaid, to give Elon Musk and his rich crony friends money. Right. That's the message that actually wins. I think a lot of our friends and allies. And I get it. I mean, I respect them and I feel like for them, because their heart is in the right place. I think they want us to be fight Trump. But if you don't have the public with you, you're not going to be there. Polling shows right now. By the way, the thing that people are most unhappy about Donald Trump is Elon. No. Number one is that they don't believe he's doing enough to bring down the cost of living. Number two is Elon. People are more upset about Elon than Donald Trump. And so if you could actually communicate that, bring it home and bring everything home, then that's how you actually have more success. Because when we first got here, when we first got in, the American public, including Democrats, by the way, if you polled them, said that we wanted to give an opportunity to work with Donald Trump. If we had just come in and guns a blazing, I think we would actually have turned off a lot of potential voters. And now I think people are seeing the consequences of Donald Trump. And I think also now that we're getting closer and closer to them seeing the real chaos that's going to come with a CR and with reconciliation, this is when we have to start turning up the heat. Like, for example, I'm going to have. I already said this. I'm having saved Medicaid town halls in Arizona. This is now. This is the timing for it.
- [21:55]
Tim Miller
What about my theory that you got to play a little bit more on Trump's turf? I mean, there's this notion that, like, oh, you got to. I'm here. I hear you. You should talk about the economy, you should talk about Medicaid, you should talk about eggs. But like, Elon, you know, the shadow president has multiple baby mamas tweeting about how he's a deadbeat dad right now while he's, while he's firing veterans and also forcing the government to play for armored electric vehicles that nobody wants. I don't know, man. If that was happening on the other side, I think Trump would be talking about it, I guess. You know what I mean?
- [22:25]
Ruben Gallego
But Trump and them have a better media ecosystem than we do. But we should be talking about Donald Trump allowing Elon Musk to, like, illegally procure vehicles to make him rich, Right? So, like, that's money that they're taking illegally. They went back and illegally changed a line Item contract from $400,000 was signed under Biden, made it $400 million, and then backdated it to make it look it was Biden. I mean, in any other administration, people are going to jail. But more importantly, we have to Remind people that this is Elon Musk using government to enrich themselves while he is gutting Medicaid while the cost of eggs are up. Listen, I don't think anyone gives a care about baby mamas unless the baby mamas are helping bring down the cost. So, like, let's get to focus. Like, it's just not gonna happen.
- [23:15]
Tim Miller
You don't have to talk about them. I might talk about it. You get it. You know, that's a broad Internet.
- [23:19]
Ruben Gallego
There's so many ways to do this. Like, not everyone has to be on the same page. Like, yes. Like, for some of our allies. Yeah.
- [23:24]
Tim Miller
Amen to that.
- [23:24]
Ruben Gallego
If you want to go after the baby mamas, go after the baby mamas. Like, that's like.
- [23:27]
Tim Miller
It doesn't mean I'm not going after the baby mamas. I'm on the side of the baby mamas. I'm going after Elon over the baby moms.
- [23:32]
Ruben Gallego
I want to hit him about the baby moms, but again, there's nothing wrong. The idea that we all have to have 100% uniform alignment is also incorrect. I don't think we should be faulting our friends, our activist friends, our friends on the left, our normie Democrat friends are attacking on all these other fronts. That's fine. We all should be doing whatever we can right now.
- [23:53]
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- [24:54]
Tim Miller
I need to talk to you briefly about crypto. You're the ranking member of the Digital Assets Committee. I think that you're. Well, I guess I'll let you speak for yourself and your view on crypto. I'm like, APOPLECTIC about what's happening with crypto. And I think that, I don't think people understand the degree to the scam that's being run like between the Trump coin Tether. Tether is this so called stable coin that people use for money laundering, terror financing, sanctions of Asia. North Korea is using it to get money. Howard Lutnick, our Secretary of Commerce is like a key player not anymore to divest, but his kids are now in tether. Trump is this coin. I mean like there are. These scams are unbelievable. We would not allow these scams in any other industry. So like where are you at? How do you balance like credible crypto with investigating these guys?
- [25:38]
Ruben Gallego
Yeah, there's no regulation. So what we need to do is regulate out these scams. Right. Because these scams are, are problematic. They are used for, like you said, illegal transactions. A lot of them are just pump and dump scams. Everything else like that versus there are some legal and not legal because they're all legal until we put some regulations together, legitimate cryptocurrency and we need to kind of set down the rules of the road so that way it's not abused. You're only bringing in and validating really the real crypto assets versus allowing anybody to put up a meme coin and then selling it and people being taken.
- [26:20]
Tim Miller
Right, but how are they going to regulate this when the fox is in charge of the henhouse here? I mean Trump, Trump is running one of the biggest scams out there and like now he's appointing people because there is no regulation.
- [26:29]
Ruben Gallego
Yeah, yeah, that's a problem. Look, you have to regulate like you would regulate anything else you sell and trade. Right. And you have to make sure that the people that are doing it, number one, aren't going to be able again to take advantage of consumers, that it will still allow companies to innovate. You know, tether's not even based in the United States, for example. So we want to be able to bring this back, regulate it, make it transparent. And that way we're basically pushing out the bad scams and only regulating what we have here. That is what we consider more legitimate and more transparent, much like anything else, like how we regulate banks. You can't just start a bank and start taking money in the United States without going through certain regulations. It's the same thing we should be doing with this type of crypto assets, setting down the rules of the road so it's transparent. So when there are abuses, we actually have a way to actually go after the abusers and Recover the money or the people that have been scammed?
- [27:25]
Tim Miller
Finally, we're going to close Dems. We're struggling with bros. A lot of talk about this. So Dems, come on. I have a. I have a Bro Talk segment. I want to see how you guys can handle it. So we have a quiz for you. Santa Ruben Gallego. How bro are you? Can you name one MMA fighter?
- [27:40]
Ruben Gallego
One? I'm a boxing guy. I don't actually.
- [27:43]
Tim Miller
Okay, name me some boxers.
- [27:44]
Ruben Gallego
Well, I mean MMA fighters. I mean, Henry Cejudo from Arizona. Boxers. The current one. I'm really into David Benavides and he should eventually go against Canelo for the championship fight, but David is. It was just actually his match last week.
- [28:01]
Tim Miller
Do you ever do any gambling on boxing? Is boxing gambling legal in Arizona?
- [28:05]
Ruben Gallego
I'm sure in Vegas it is, but I play blackjack. I don't do sports gaming.
- [28:09]
Tim Miller
Do you hit on 16?
- [28:11]
Ruben Gallego
Well, it depends what the dealer is showing.
- [28:14]
Tim Miller
Okay.
- [28:15]
Ruben Gallego
Yeah, if he's got a bus card. No. Right.
- [28:19]
Tim Miller
All right, that's good. So, all right, we have a blackjack strategy. We can name an mma. Do you know it? Do you know what Zyn is?
- [28:26]
Ruben Gallego
I do know what Zinn is. Yeah. Yeah.
- [28:28]
Tim Miller
Okay. What is Zyn?
- [28:29]
Ruben Gallego
Zin is a nicotine pouch, basically. Dip is what we used to call in the Marine Corps.
- [28:35]
Tim Miller
Do you think that bros that want to have coffee flavored Zyn, do you think they should be allowed to or do you think that the government should regulate that?
- [28:41]
Ruben Gallego
I mean, like we should regulate how we regulate, like, you know, spit tobacco, but other than that, no, I don't think we should be like banning people from having Zen. Using Zen.
- [28:53]
Tim Miller
Finally, I just pulled up the Nelk boys Twitter feed. Here's their most recent tweet. Aiden Ross goes in on Kendrick vs Drake Beef and reveals his relationship with Barron Trump. Baron misspelled. Can you translate that sentence? Do you know what happened in this? Aiden Ross goes in on Kendrick vs Drake beef.
- [29:10]
Ruben Gallego
I don't know who Aiden Ross is, but I mean, the Kendrick and Drake drama is awesome, by the way. And so his put down at the super bowl is probably the ultimate diss in the history of this country. You know, I'm on team Kendrick, definitely. You have to be Barron Trump, I'm assuming took a side or probably try to flip a frickin meme coin on it. But if it's Baron Trump, I'm assuming he actually took Drake's side, which would be disgusting because I think. I think Drake is the loser in this, in this whole thing. And he is definitely not like us.
- [29:40]
Tim Miller
Senator Ruben Gallego. A wonderful way to end. Please come back to the podcast. Thank you for joining and we'll be seeing you soon.
- [29:46]
Ruben Gallego
Gracias. Bye.
- [29:47]
Tim Miller
All right, up next, Elena Maxwell.
- [30:02]
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- [31:02]
Tim Miller
All right, guys, we are back with Zerlina Maxwell. She's a political analyst, host of Mornings with Zerlina on SiriusXM. She's a new substack called the Inner Work Dispatch, which is about working on your mental health. It's something that I'm, I'm working on and doing a poor job of. So we'll get to that at the end. But how you doing, girl?
- [31:19]
Zerlina Maxwell
I'm all right. I'm hanging in there. Like I say to most people, I am trying to stay sane. That's it.
- [31:26]
Tim Miller
How's that going so far?
- [31:28]
Zerlina Maxwell
I'm sane. You know, I'm saving all of the reasons why I shouldn't be. I think.
- [31:34]
Tim Miller
All right. I don't know. I think I'm teetering. But we'll get to that at the end. We've got our first cabinet meeting today. Big news, exciting news. We're adding people to the Cabinet. There's a bonus person that is there. The world's richest man, a South African immigrant, Elon Musk is going to be at the Cabinet meeting. Trump is just doesn't give a F about this. It's interesting. There was a period of time where people were all like, oh, these guys are going to be fighting. There's going to be tension. I don't know. I think he kind of loves it. But what's your take on what's going on with that?
- [32:03]
Zerlina Maxwell
Well, I think he's going to love it until the utility of having Elon Musk there goes away. Right? So up until the point where somebody explains to him that this is actually hurting his polling or his popularity, I think he loves it because Elon Musk gets all the smoke, he gets all of the heat from the public and all of the things that the administration is doing. People are going to blame Elon Musk basically at this point. And I think it's a little bit nuts. Like sometimes I have to take a step back and I'm like the George Soros comparison. If like a Democratic president brought George Soros to a cabinet meeting or like had a press avail in the Oval Office with a left leaning billionaire, you know, how would that be taken by the American public? But I don't even think that's actually helpful because I think that what we, we need to start saying is the richest man in the world is destroying our democracy and cutting programs that benefit regular people so that he can have more money. And he already has more money than everybody on the planet Earth. So imagine you have somebody with more money than all of us taking away health insurance, food, actual programs that people need to survive so that he can be even richer. And that's what's happening. I mean you have him in the, in the Cabinet meeting, you had him in the Oval Office. He's been elected and voted on by zero people. He's been confirmed by no Senate and yet he's basically the co president. Like where's J.D. vance? I don't know.
- [33:39]
Tim Miller
He's tweeting. Oh yeah, he sent a tweet yesterday about how Donald Trump chooses his words carefully and that's why people that don't like him. You know, the whole thing is just, it's like hard to. J.D. vance is just so ridiculous. I'm interested in your take on this, like using your strategist hat too. Like do people believe that he wants more money? Like it's something that I've been working through. Like what is the right way to talk about this? Like maybe convince people he wants to be the first trillionaire. Maybe he wants to be the first trillionaire, I don't know. Or maybe it's like not actually about money. And what Elon Musk is doing is he wants total control and he wants to be an unelected autocrat that is in charge of you and he does not believe that you have self determination. He does not believe that people should have A right to choose what they want for their own government life. He thinks that he should be in charge because he thinks he's the smartest person in the world. I don't know, maybe that's. What do you think lands with people?
- [34:30]
Zerlina Maxwell
Well, I think him wanting more money, taking away resources from people, I think that resonates. But I also think you're right. I mean, he wants power. He wants to be a king. He wants to be in charge. I mean, he is in charge, right, of his companies. And so he's used to just dictating orders. I mean, similar. That's.
- [34:49]
Tim Miller
I mean, he's in charge of huge parts of the government too, apparently. I mean, like Trump is what him.
- [34:53]
Zerlina Maxwell
And Trump have in common, right? They like just barking orders at people and having people do what they say. And I think that one of the things that's really, really hard for people to really conceptualize in their brain is how much $1 billion actually is and how much money Elon Musk actually has, or at least what he's valued at because of his ownership of Tesla stock. So I think for folks who rely upon government programs, these government agencies that are providing resources for regular folks, like, it's hard for them to understand, I think because it's happening so quickly, the consequences of what Elon Musk is doing. And I think maybe if as the strategist Democrats focused on the impact on people as opposed to even he wants more money, that would help land the message more effectively.
- [35:47]
Tim Miller
I'm excited to see how the cabinet meeting goes. In the first one, it was everybody had to talk about how great Mr. Trump was, sir. Remember that in Trump one point.
- [35:55]
Zerlina Maxwell
Yes.
- [35:56]
Tim Miller
I'll never forget it. Do they go around and praise both of them? Time? I don't know. I'm waiting with bated breath. Your point about the impact on actual people. On your show, you're doing call ins, you're doing Collins. You're hearing from people, you're hearing from real folks. I'm kind of curious what that's like, but as part of those conversations, you've been posting some clips of people that are suffering real consequences from this. So talk about what you think the opportunity is there and what the real life impact is from folks you're hearing from.
- [36:25]
Zerlina Maxwell
Well, right after the election, it was almost like therapy because people were crying. And you know, I'm not a therapist. My mother was, but I'm not a therapist. So I was trying, even though I'm also emotional and trying to process and I'm traumatized I'm trying to create a space for people so that they can just like let it out. And it's really, really helpful and I think validating for people to hear from other people all over the country who are also feeling the same exact way. Because a lot of people are like, in their own homes, like, I'm losing it. I'm, am I going crazy? And then when they hear other people on the radio say exactly the same things they're thinking and feeling, it's so reassuring that you're not the only one. That it's like, wait, is Elon Musk running the government? Right? Like, am I, am I losing my mind? And for other people who are calling in and being like, I feel exactly the same way. Like, I am so angry. There's a lot of anger. So I think after the hurt of the election kind of dissipated. People are now pissed. In addition, I had a caller last week call in and say she was one of the CDC employees that lost their job. I mean, it's real for people. This isn't. I mean, when they talk about federal workers as if they're not tax paying Americans and working people with bills just like everybody else, it's very strange. This is gonna have a profound impact in the economy that we don't even foresee because those federal employees are a part of our economy and they go and shop at businesses and go to restaurants and they are workers just like everybody else. So if you fire millions of people because you want to pay for your tax cuts, that's going to have an impact in the economy that they're not thinking that through. Elon Musk doesn't care about that, but Trump should.
- [38:10]
Tim Miller
And also they talk about federal workers, government workers, bureaucrats, like it's just some random person on K Street in a suit that's totally replaceable. I was mentioning this on yesterday's thing. Maybe I should start doing callers. I don't know. I pulled this example just out of my ass. I was like, imagine if you're an NIH employee that has expertise in infectious diseases or whatever and you just got fired because you're a probationary employee and you've got these Republicans that are like, well, whatever, go to a job fair, find another job. Literally. One of our commenters was like, I'm an NIH employee who's a specialist in gene therapy that got fired, right? And it's like that, putting those actual faces on things. I mean, that is a person that I assume an expert in gene therapy. God love you. We'll Be able to find other work, because that's like, that kind of specialty. But when you hear from the people that are calling in, these people have real expertise that is being lost, and they help other people and they have impact on their community. And I do think the ripple effect of that is going to be real.
- [39:11]
Zerlina Maxwell
Right. So there's the economic ripple effect, but then there's also just the loss of the expertise to other places. Right. Like, people. I've been reading reports about people who are in public health programs basically being like, my entire job plan out the window. And what am I going to do? Well, those people are going to go to other parts of the world, and they're going to bring their medical expertise and their research to other places that are willing to accept them. In addition, I was reading yesterday, or maybe it was a TikTok I saw. It was about a medical conference. It was about people who specifically specialize in, like, devices for people who are deaf or hard of hearing. Right. And that at this conference, all these people are processing the fact that they're going to lose all of their pathways to employment and research because it's diversity in terms of hearing and because the word diversity was in the language.
- [40:07]
Tim Miller
Oh, my God.
- [40:08]
Ruben Gallego
Right.
- [40:09]
Zerlina Maxwell
Like, it's actually so stupid. So one of the things that is both good and bad is that they are not thinking anything through.
- [40:16]
Tim Miller
Right?
- [40:17]
Zerlina Maxwell
Right. Elon Musk isn't thinking anything through, and he has no idea what most of these people in the federal government do. It's the example that they fired all the people guarding the nukes, and they were like, oops, our bad, you know, and, oh, we fired all the people that do bird flu. That seems bad. And so I think that there are going to be unforeseen consequences that are going to make them look foolish. I hope it doesn't hurt too many people before we fix it. But I don't know. I mean, I feel like Covid should have taught us that these people do not think things through. You know, they're going to do the comparative. Get rid of the pandemic response unit, and then a pandemic happens. So they're not competent at all?
- [41:00]
Tim Miller
No, uh, no. Competence is not the. Is not the key for. For the current administration.
- [41:08]
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- [41:19]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [41:20]
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- [42:08]
Tim Miller
Talk about the Dems. I'm wondering what you think their opportunities are, what their missed opportunity is. I mean, I think that it is pretty just it's kind of obvious at this point. Like the Democrats have struggled and have lost ground with working class voters. Those particularly in the 2016 race, there's a lot of working class white voters. Everybody focused on, you know, people were taking, you know, going on safaris to diners in Scranton to try to figure out what's going on with working class white voters. But like, in this last election, it was really across the board. Right? I know, except for black women pretty much. But like working class voters of every other demographic besides black women went more to Trump than they had. Right. Not a majority, but, like, you know, started to he gained ground with them. I'm wondering, like, what you think was the cause of that and like, what you think Democrats should do about it.
- [42:56]
Zerlina Maxwell
So I don't ever like to look at what happened in 2024 and then say, like, this is the problem with Democrats messaging because it was such a weird election cycle. Right. You had Kamala Harris come in with 100 days and try to win a whole election, which nobody's ever done. We've never elected a woman and we've only elected one black person. So it was like you have a lot of the odds stacked against you. With that said, though, I think one of the things that Democrats do every single time is take the wrong message from election results. So number one, you lost by 1.5%. So why would you be like, oh, to a clown.
- [43:33]
Tim Miller
And you didn't lose by 1.5% to Nikki Haley. You also a guy that was like, you know, a felon and a clown.
- [43:39]
Zerlina Maxwell
Listen, I absolutely acknowledge that that is true. However, I think that we have to understand that the people that are willing to vote for a clown over Kamala Harris are not going to vote for a Democrat. Like, there's a lot of people that spend a lot of time trying to win back voters that are never going to vote for a Democrat again. They're not going to vote for a Democrat again. I think the focus should be on turning out the people that didn't vote at all. The people. The 50% of people that were like, I just. Just doesn't matter to me. Democracy. I don't. I just don't really care about that that much. But my eggs are really expensive, and I'm very frustrated. But still, I'm not really convinced that I need to participate at all in elections to save democracy, to do anything. Like, I'm just gonna go over here and do what I'm supposed to do. In my day, I'm not. I don't care about politics. I'm not involved at all. And so I don't think Democrats spend enough time trying to reach those people. They spend so much time trying to win back folks that I don't think they're going to ever win back. They are not going to win back people that, you know, watch all of Trump's rallies through 2016 or in 2024 and weren't offended by any of that, voted for him despite those things, watched him in power for four years, including during COVID and then voted for him again. It's too hard to win back those people at the expense of your base. So one of the things that Trump does well is that he's always firing up his base, and Democrats are always trying to win the middle as opposed to firing up their own base, which you would be able to capture. Some of those people who are disengaged because they have the same interests with your base. So I think that it's a matter of what you are prioritizing in your message as opposed to a more strategic thing. And it's been my frustration for, like, at least 15 years.
- [45:34]
Tim Miller
I have a little bit of a different view, but before I do give my pushback, I want to hear a little more about your view. Like what? How do you think the Democrats could appeal more to the base? I think we're talking mostly about people like black voters didn't vote, young voters didn't vote are really probably the two groups that we're talking about mostly. What do you think they could talk about that would, in your view, bring more folks from those demographics up?
- [45:54]
Zerlina Maxwell
It's not even what. It's the mediums they're using to talk to people. So the Democrats are like, we have to fix our message. I'm like, your message. There's not really. You could tweak it, sure. But if you're going on Cable News and 1:00 in the afternoon, it doesn't matter what you're saying. I don't understand why that's continuing to be the strategy. And I think that there was some criticism by those mainstream media outlets that were like, why is Kamala going on call her daddy? Well, that's because people listen to that. People watch that the base of the party that you need to vote actually consumes that. So you want to do more of that and less of the standard traditional thing. You're not eliminating that completely. But I think that there is a very slow evolution in strategy, media strategy, comm strategy on like how to actually reach people. I think that we saw some of that in Kamala Harris's 107 Day Campaign where you're figuring out that you actually have to do more podcasts, you have to go on TikTok more, you need to do live streams, you need to talk to influencers. Like, you're not sitting down with the noon anchor, you're just not doing that. So part of it is the medium they're actually trying to talk to voters through. And also understanding that the media is not your friend, even if they're the most respected well meaning journalist. In my opinion, the media is a filter. It's always been a filter and it's very much a filter right now. If you go back and watch Kamala Harris's interviews from her short campaign, you know, there are interviews where 14 of the 15 questions were a Republican talking point as the premise. So I don't understand. I mean like, so you can have the best message. You can have the message and they.
- [47:42]
Tim Miller
Get no credit for it either. I know, it's crazy. It's like CNN will do that interview and then like, because, like that'll show that we're not balanced. And then they get no credit for MAGA voters for it.
- [47:50]
Zerlina Maxwell
And it frustrates, you know, people like me who are like, you just wasted all of your time trying to appeal and so to tamp down the criticism of the media when you didn't reach a single voter that you needed.
- [48:01]
Tim Miller
Okay, so here's my pushback on what you're saying. Obviously I like moderate voters, so we should try to reach them. But I'm going to put them. Let's put them aside for a second. Let's put the moderate voters aside for a second. I don't. Democrats need to try to reach. Like, there are two groups that I'm thinking of. One is, I was looking at a map yesterday of rural America and like, what percentage of them are on Medicaid? And it's like, I don't know, man. Couldn't Democrats make may not get a majority, but get some gains?
- [48:23]
Zerlina Maxwell
Oh, yeah.
- [48:24]
Tim Miller
Among old whites in rural America who need their Medicaid, couldn't Democrats get some gains back from. If you look at like urban neighborhoods, those aren't voters that Democrats can't get. They're people voted for Democrats their whole life. And then this time, you know, again, small percentages, but meaningful. 5, 10% in some, in some boroughs in New York, like Bronx, like, moved towards Trump. You gotta be able to try to persuade some of those folks to come back, right?
- [48:51]
Zerlina Maxwell
Oh, yeah, I actually agree with you. I'm not saying that you're not gonna try to do it at all, but I think that one of the things they do every cycle is they're like, let's go on a bus tour to get white working class voters. And I'm like, you do this every time and you don't think that maybe that's maybe not the answer? I don't think it's not the answer. Right. Like that's not the answer and that's not the problem. And also, it's all happening with the backdrop of changing demographics. Right. So even when we say something like rural voters or, you know, working class voters now, we have to understand that that does include a large number of black and brown people.
- [49:35]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Democrats actually lost a little ground among rural black voters in Georgia.
- [49:39]
Zerlina Maxwell
So that's where the bus tour is not the, the way. But, but you do have to figure out. And maybe it's the Medicaid message. Yeah, I think the Social Security piece of this is really important because black women in particular, huge recipients of Social Security benefits. So there are ways and there are messages that work on those constituencies that you absolutely need to be engaged and excited. But I think that they, they keep doing the same thing over and expecting a different result when they needed to evolve with the demographic shift.
- [50:14]
Tim Miller
All right, let's talk about our inner selves, the inner work dispatch. So I'm dealing with the current Trump 2.0 by doing an unhealthy amount of working and then binge drinking on the weekends. Is that the kind of inner work that you're talking about or do you have any advice for me?
- [50:32]
Zerlina Maxwell
No, no, and no shade to the folks who have chosen those things. I would say that I'M just trying.
- [50:40]
Tim Miller
To be honest about how I'm doing about my. I also. I am going to yoga, too. I am going to yoga.
- [50:46]
Zerlina Maxwell
Yeah. Okay. Drinking and yoga.
- [50:48]
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- [50:49]
Tim Miller
How's that?
- [50:49]
Zerlina Maxwell
Is it hot yoga or you're, like, sweating it out?
- [50:51]
Tim Miller
Yeah, sometimes. Depends.
- [50:52]
Zerlina Maxwell
Okay. Okay. So I don't know if they told you, but I live in Italy now, so I'm doing the second Trump administration. Very different than the first. The first Trump administration, I was like, all right, I'm the resistance. I'm out here, I'm doing it. I'm up front. I'm consuming it nonstop. I am working all the time. I am. This is like, I live and breathe this.
- [51:18]
Tim Miller
This time, you're doing Eat, Pray, Love, Radio.
- [51:20]
Zerlina Maxwell
Well, look, I mean, I can't say that I wasn't inspired by that, but I will say that I came to Italy in 2024. I spent half the year in 2024 in Italy. 90 days, 90 days home, 90 days back, 90 days home. And I have never felt better, mentally, physically, all the things. And it's because I have just a little bit of distance from some of the daily onslaught. I mean, there's. It's. It's really different here, the way that they are, and I say they sort of generalizing, but the people that I interact with, the way that they approach life and being present and, you know, talking to people face to face and having those types of interactions, I'm not saying they don't also have some of the same issues that we do, but I think that I have learned a lot about, like, making joy and happiness on a daily basis and actually living in the present here. And so the second Trump administration, I decided that I was not going to do what I did the first time. Now, also, my mother had massive strokes and passed away at the end of 2022. I'm sorry, and thank you. And I'm not going out like that. So I decided that I was gonna do something different, and I was going to go where I feel good and where I feel happiness, and I can still do my job and cover what is happening in our country. And I think actually, the perspective of being here is unique because it's looking crazy from over here. And also, when you talk to people here, they are like, what the hell is wrong with America? And I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I agree, but I really don't know what is wrong. They were universally. It wasn't like a debate. They were universally opposed to Trump. Every single person I Talked to was like, you guys aren't gonna vote for Trump again, are you?
- [53:18]
Tim Miller
Which is so weird because Melania is kind of. Yeah, but it's like a different story.
- [53:22]
Zerlina Maxwell
When you talk to regular folks. And when you talk to regular folks, the people that I interacted with, I mean, literally the person. This is a true story. When I went to print my absentee ballot, the man who printed my absentee ballot spoke no English. And he handed it to me and he said, no, Trump. That's all he said. He didn't speak any English at all, but he handed me my absentee ballot and was like, no, Trump.
- [53:43]
Tim Miller
Don't get him in trouble. Eagle Ed Martin's coming for him.
- [53:49]
Zerlina Maxwell
No one will know who it is, but I think that here, it's like, regular, ordinary folks are looking at us like, what are you guys doing? And also, I think it's just a different way of life and sort of approaching your everyday life and living in the moment in a little bit of a different way. I mean, like, my dad came to visit during my first trip, and we were walking around, and he was like, I understand why you like it here. Because the energy, it's a vibe. I mean, when I go home to the United States, I'm mostly staying in Virginia when I'm there, and it's an energy thing. People are angry. People are anxious, anxious. They're just. They're all, like, pumped up, like. And that's when you come here. It's not like that. It's. I mean, I'm in Sicily, so it's very much not like that. Like, in Sicily, people are chilling. Like, there's a man across the street putting the net out fishing Right. Right now.
- [54:49]
Tim Miller
Well, I don't have that. I moved to New Orleans, which is the closest we can do in America to that. There's nobody out there with nets fishing. But we are getting into. We are in parade season. How's your Italian?
- [54:59]
Zerlina Maxwell
Okay. It's improving, I'll say that.
- [55:01]
Tim Miller
Okay.
- [55:01]
Zerlina Maxwell
I do take lessons, and I'm improving.
- [55:03]
Tim Miller
One of my besties did your same thing. It's so weird that Italian is the spot. She get to see her this weekend, so I'm so excited she's coming back to America. But she went. She moved to Arpena.
- [55:12]
Zerlina Maxwell
Okay.
- [55:13]
Tim Miller
Like, her ancestral land. And, like, just did what you did. Was there. Like, I was going to be there for six months. Met a winemaker, married a winemaker, lives in rural Italy now.
- [55:23]
Zerlina Maxwell
So I need to meet a winemaker.
- [55:25]
Tim Miller
Yeah, so you need to meet a winemaker. But she said a lot of the same things that you're saying that. So there is something to the mindset. I think so. For people that are stuck in America, do you have any inner mind advice for them?
- [55:38]
Zerlina Maxwell
Every single day, at the end of my show, I tell all of the listeners to do something in their day that sparks joy. And I don't mean tidy up like, you know, Marie Kondo. No shade. Right. I mean, actually, like, be intentional about trying to make your day a good day. And don't sit around and scroll through news like, what are you doing? Stop doing that. Don't do that. You're not going to be able to make Trump or Elon Musk do something different just because you rage tweeted today. Like, do not do that. So there is a time and place to engage in activism and then you also want to live your life because previous generations who had to go through fights like the one we're going through right now. I mean, there is a famous picture of Martin Luther King dancing. Right. Like, you do have to also live. And if you take care of your mental health, you are better able to do the things that are necessary, activism wise. Right. Like, if you're a complete mess and you're all over the place, you're not.
- [56:43]
Tim Miller
Going to be effective actually in other ways. Like if you're angry. If you're so consumed by anger.
- [56:48]
Zerlina Maxwell
Yeah.
- [56:49]
Tim Miller
Then you're not. You're not going to be able to convince anybody, frankly. You might turn people off.
- [56:53]
Zerlina Maxwell
Exactly.
- [56:53]
Tim Miller
Honestly. And hurt and harm yourself.
- [56:56]
Zerlina Maxwell
Exactly. Don't, don't do that. And don't, don't sit and just scroll endlessly through the news. Do not do that. I need everybody. I mean, I started watching shows with subtitles specifically because I couldn't stop, you know, scrolling. I mean, they built it to be addicting and it is. But, like, I started watching shows with subtitles and that was the way that I broke my phone. Addiction.
- [57:19]
Tim Miller
That's a good piece of advice. I did notice I looked at my phone last during Squid Game. All right. And Nora. Nora. I watched Nora. So great. Nor is so great. I don't know if you haven't watched it yet, go get it.
- [57:30]
Zerlina Maxwell
No, I know that's a place to go see it. I'm now addicted to the show Paradise.
- [57:34]
Tim Miller
Okay. I don't know it.
- [57:35]
Zerlina Maxwell
That's my new addiction.
- [57:36]
Tim Miller
All right, I'll look it up. Zerlina Maxwell, thank you so much. Enjoy Sicily. I thought I was bragging on everybody that it's Mardi Gras. Coming up here, but you're in Sicily, so a little gel and we'll do an update about our inner life and the outer life both sometime in a few months.
- [57:52]
Zerlina Maxwell
Thank you for having me.
- [57:53]
Tim Miller
All right, we'll see you soon. That's Zorlina Maxwell. Thanks again to Ruben Gallego. We'll see everybody back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Peace.
- [58:02]
Ruben Gallego
If this world were mine hey.
- [58:05]
Unknown
Roman numeral 7 beige rap it like it's hot if this world was mine I take your dreams and make them multiply if this world was mine I take your enemies in front of God Introduce them to that light Hit them strictly with that 5 5, 5, 5, 5, 5,. 5, 5 hey. Roman numeral 7 beige rapid like it's hot if this world was mine I take your dreams and make them multiply if this world was mine I take it Enemies in front of God Introduce them to that light Hit them strictly with that five It's a bop do your dance, let them watch, She a fan, he a flop they just wanna kumbaya nah, it's 12 see flowers grow Give this world I can't lie I trust you I love you I won't waste your time I turn it off Just so I can turn you on I'mma make you say love I'm not even tripping I won't stress you out I might even settle down for you I'mma show you I'm a pro I'mma take my time and turn it off Just so I can turn you on baby Wickets get popping on the line Better days coming for show.
- [59:58]
Tim Miller
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.