S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again

Summary

Detailed Summary of The Bulwark Podcast Episode S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again

Introduction

In Season 2, Episode 1003 of The Bulwark Podcast, released on March 19, 2025, host Tim Miller engages in a profound and candid conversation with Ben Wittes, the editor-in-chief of Lawfare and a senior fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. The episode delves deep into the tumultuous landscape of U.S. politics under the current administration, examining the interplay between domestic policies, judicial maneuvers, and international relations, particularly focusing on the deteriorating relationship with Russia and the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.

---

1. The "Full Scale Situation"

Timestamp: 02:08 – 06:16

Ben Wittes introduces the concept of the "Full Scale Situation," a term that encapsulates the conglomeration of aggressive policies and strategic shifts undertaken by the current administration. He outlines four primary components that define this scenario:

1. Reorientation of U.S. Foreign Policy: Shifting focus towards adversaries while de-emphasizing alliances with traditional friends.
2. War on Bureaucracy: Systematic dismantling and undermining of federal agencies.
3. Remaking Power Ministries: Restructuring the Departments of Justice and FBI with politically motivated appointees.
4. Legal Policy Overhauls: Implementing laws that undermine democratic institutions and norms, including crackdowns on DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) programs and restrictive immigration actions.

Ben emphasizes that each of these areas alone would constitute a revolution in American politics and policy. However, their simultaneous implementation creates an overwhelming and destabilizing environment.

Notable Quote:

"Each of these major areas would be an absolute revolution in American politics and policy all by itself. To do all of this all at the same time creates this sense of overwhelming."
(06:16)

---

2. Emotional Toll and Ideological Conflicts

Timestamp: 02:32 – 04:51

Tim Miller probes into Ben Wittes' personal struggles with the ideological underpinnings of his analysis. Ben admits to grappling with a natural inclination to "get excited when something absolutely terrible happens for this administration," reflecting a deep-seated opposition to Leninist principles and an almost puritanical desire for the purging of perceived societal sins through political turmoil.

Notable Quotes:

"I feel like a combination of Lenin and a Southern Baptist preacher."
(04:12)

"There's a redemptive quality to the pain."
(04:48)

---

3. Judicial Challenges and the Supreme Court

Timestamp: 12:03 – 21:36

The conversation shifts to the judiciary's resistance against the administration's policies, highlighting recent tensions surrounding Judge Boasberg and his decisions on Venezuelan deportations. Ben Wittes critiques Chief Justice John Roberts' measured response to calls for the impeachment of judges undermining administration policies, underscoring the judiciary's role as a check against executive overreach.

Key Points:

• Judge Boasberg's Orders: His decisions to halt deportations have sparked ire from the administration, leading to discussions about judicial authority and political interference.
• Chief Justice Roberts' Stance: Emphasizes that impeachment is not a suitable response to judicial disagreements, advocating for appellate reviews instead.

Notable Quotes:

"John Roberts is an extremely measured human being...stop political attacks on district judges."
(16:51)

"The question of what this case is bears on that a lot. And because it was generated so quickly, it's actually hard to pin down precisely what the question is."
(21:36)

---

4. Immigration Policies and Deportations

Timestamp: 06:16 – 24:20

Ben Wittes elaborates on the administration's aggressive immigration tactics, particularly focusing on the Venezuelan deportations and the broader implications for U.S. constitutional law. He discusses the complex legal battles surrounding the deportation of individuals, some of whom lack legal representation and are effectively rendered stateless.

Key Points:

• Legal Overreach: The administration's attempts to deport individuals without due process challenge established legal norms.
• Constitutional Questions: The use of the Alien Enemies Act and its stringent criteria for action versus the administration's broader interpretations.
• Implications for Human Liberty: The erosion of due process rights and the potential long-term damage to U.S. immigration policy.

Notable Quotes:

"There's a real conundrum there that successive administrations have dealt with by being very careful with the statute. This administration, the whole careful thing, they don't do that."
(24:20)

---

5. The Supreme Court's Role and Potential Outcomes

Timestamp: 22:51 – 30:00

The discussion navigates the administration's strategy to escalate immigration cases to the Supreme Court, aiming to secure favorable rulings. Ben Wittes maintains a skeptical view of this approach, given recent trends where the court has often resisted executive overreach.

Key Points:

• Judicial Pushback: Recent Supreme Court decisions have shown reluctance to fully endorse the administration's broad interpretations of immigration laws.
• Potential Battles on Constitutional Grounds: Cases may hinge on the balance of powers between the executive and legislative branches.
• Long-Term Ramifications: The Supreme Court's stance could set pivotal precedents affecting future administrations.

Notable Quotes:

"The day that I say, okay, the Supreme Court is just a rubber stamp for the Trump administration, I may as well go into a different business."
(24:20)

"No judge anywhere in the country has sided with them in their reading of birthright citizenship... I don't think that's going to be different at the Supreme Court."
(24:20)

---

6. The Shutdown of Voice of America (VOA) and Its Implications

Timestamp: 49:23 – 57:35

Ben Wittes addresses the administration's executive order leading to the shutdown of Voice of America (VOA), a critical instrument of U.S. soft power and international broadcasting. He underscores the strategic loss in countering foreign disinformation and diminishing the dissemination of truthful news globally.

Key Points:

• Impact on Global Information: VOA’s role in providing unbiased news to authoritarian regimes and areas with limited press freedom.
• Erosion of U.S. Soft Power: The shutdown hampers America's ability to influence global narratives and support democratic movements.
• Employment and Operational Consequences: The abrupt termination of VOA staff disrupts international news coverage and undermines longstanding information initiatives.

Notable Quotes:

"If you don't want to counter Russian disinformation, why would you have a news service that tells the truth?"
(53:41)

"This is an administration that wants to build entire edifices of foreign policy based on lies...they’re erasing the data of their evil."
(37:21)

---

7. The Trump-Putin Call and Its Aftermath

Timestamp: 32:34 – 38:53

The podcast examines the recent telephone conversation between President Trump and Russian President Putin, analyzing its ramifications on U.S.-Russia relations and the broader geopolitical climate. Ben Wittes critiques Putin's manipulative tactics during the call and expresses concern over Trump's susceptibility to being undermined by Russian strategies.

Key Points:

• Negotiation Tactics: Putin's insistence on specific ceasefire terms that favor Russian interests, exemplifying strategic manipulation.
• U.S. Diplomatic Challenges: The administration's portrayal of the call as constructive, despite contradictory actions like energy infrastructure bombings.
• Long-Term Strategic Risks: Potential for Trump to be outmaneuvered by Putin, leading to diminished U.S. influence and credibility.

Notable Quotes:

"I fear the answer is the latter and hope very much that the answer is the former."
(36:52)

"He's just doubled down on it so many times that his answer to everything is, Russia, Russia, Russia."
(37:21)

---

8. Ukraine's Response and International Dependency

Timestamp: 40:26 – 44:48

Ben Wittes discusses the Ukrainian perspective, emphasizing their dependence on U.S. support amidst the ongoing conflict with Russia. He highlights the sense of betrayal felt by Ukrainians due to perceived shifts in U.S. policy and the critical role of American backing in their resistance efforts.

Key Points:

• Dependence on U.S. Support: Ukrainians rely heavily on continued U.S. assistance for military and economic stability.
• Skepticism Towards Other Allies: Limited trust in European support, increasing reliance on American commitments.
• Rallying Around Leadership: Strengthened national unity under President Zelensky in response to external threats and internal political dynamics.

Notable Quotes:

"Ukrainians are really dependent on continued US backing...It's very heartbreaking."
(40:26)

"They are super aware that the White House is spouting Kremlin propaganda."
(40:26)

---

9. Impact on Cuban Exiles and Radio Marti

Timestamp: 54:08 – 57:35

The episode concludes with a discussion on the shutdown of Radio Marti, a VOA initiative targeting Cuba, highlighting the detrimental effects on Cuban exiles and dissidents who relied on this platform for unbiased news and information.

Key Points:

• Cuban Exile Community: Radio Marti has been a vital source of information for Cuban dissidents and hardline exiles in South Florida.
• Loss of Critical Communications: The shutdown leaves a void in accessible, truthful news for communities directly affected by Cuban authoritarianism.
• Broader Implications for U.S. Foreign Broadcasting: The dismantling of such programs weakens America's capacity to support freedom and democracy abroad.

Notable Quotes:

"This administration does not believe in truth being our side."
(53:41)

"These are admired and valued sources of news all over the world. And it's because they don't have a domestic face that sort of like usaid, they don't have a domestic face."
(56:47)

---

Conclusion

The episode paints a bleak picture of the current U.S. political and international landscape under the administration led by Trump. Ben Wittes articulates a deep-seated frustration with policies that undermine democratic institutions, erode judicial independence, and compromise international relations. The shutdown of critical information services like VOA and Radio Marti signifies a troubling regression in America's role as a proponent of truth and democracy globally. Moreover, the administration's aggressive and often opaque policies on immigration and foreign affairs present profound challenges that may have lasting implications for both domestic governance and international stability.

Final Notable Quote:

"The truth not being on our side."
(53:41)

---

Takeaways:

• Institutional Erosion: The administration's policies represent a multi-faceted attack on democratic institutions and norms.
• Judicial Independence: The judiciary remains a crucial check against executive overreach, despite increasing political pressures.
• International Consequences: U.S. credibility abroad is waning due to inconsistent and often contradictory foreign policies.
• Information Warfare: The dismantling of information dissemination platforms like VOA undermines global efforts to counteract disinformation and support democratic movements.

Ben Wittes' insights offer a critical lens through which listeners can understand the complexities and dangers posed by the current administration's trajectory, emphasizing the need for vigilance and sustained defense of democratic principles.

Transcript

[Shopify Ad]

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, Allbirds or skims, sure you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making selling and for the shoppers buying simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify. Home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret with shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify, upgrade your business and get the same checkout skims uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com audioboom all lowercase go to shopify.com audioboom to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com audioboom.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. It is Wednesday, so. So if you're looking for some political chatter or you want to hear some takes on the Minnesota State senator who tried to make Trump derangement syndrome and official mental illness in the state of Minnesota and then a few hours later was caught in a sting trying to have sex with a 16 year old girl. Hmm. That was truly such a shame. Too bad. Tough break for that guy. If you want to hear more about that over on the Next level, it's Wednesday, so go check out the next level. Download that podcast feed wherever you get your podcast. It'll be up late Wednesday, but we're going to focus on serious matters here, legal matters. And I'm delighted to have with me the editor in chief of Lawfare and senior fellow in Governance studies at the Brookings Institution. Also the author of Dog Shirt Daily in a dog shirt as we speak. It's Ben Whittis.

[Ben Wittes]

Good to see you.

[Tim Miller]

What's happening man? Welcome back.

[Ben Wittes]

So good to be here.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. How's the lawfare traffic these days? Website traffic? Let's chart go up. It kind of look like the Ethereum stock chart a little bit maybe.

[Ben Wittes]

Yeah. The worse things get, the better it is for us. And so we're always have mixed feelings about doom and gloom. Democracy wise because it's good for business.

[Tim Miller]

I talked about this with Jessica Charloff yesterday. Do you have any kind of emotional hedge? Do you have any issues, any therapy that you need to do about this natural inclination to kind of get a little excited when something absolutely terrible happens for this administration because you're kind of rooting against America. Do you have any issues with that that you're dealing with?

[Ben Wittes]

I actually struggle with this a lot because I am, by inclination, deeply, deeply anti Leninist. You know, that whole maximize the contradictions thing, I really don't believe in it. I really think we should always hope we're wrong and that the country prospers and that, you know, you know, I didn't vote for president so and so. But I hope every reason that I had to fear his rule was wrong and that we do great under him. And, boy, do I not feel that right now at all, at all. I feel like, bring it on. We deserve the punishment of Trump's rule, and we should feel it to the maximum extent possible. And I find myself rooting for bad things to happen because the pain is like a refiner's fire and it purges us of sin. And the. And the infliction of that pain on the body politic will be the thing that reminds people of the sin we committed and will begin to purge it. And so I feel like a combination of Lenin and a Southern Baptist preacher.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I was going to say this sounds to me like the hard line Catholic priests, like the ones I always didn't like growing up, you know, I was more about the Jesuits, you know, the love and the supporting your neighbor and the public service and, you know, doing things for the greater glory of God, AMDG and all that. But, you know, it is kind of reminiscent of some of the other sermons I went through.

[Ben Wittes]

Fire and brimstone.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that we need pain. We know that we're sinners.

[Ben Wittes]

There's a redemptive quality to the pain. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

The worst sinners. We need to be brought to confession on our knees. Something to be said for that. Okay, well, I'll float that past my mother's priest to see what he thinks about whether we're doing anything wrong here. What's up, Father Pat? In the meantime, I want to read, I'm going to summarize as best I can an article you wrote for lawfare about what you call the full scale situation that we face right now. Point one in the full scale situation is that we have a reorientation of US Foreign policy towards our foes and away from our friends. Point two is a war on bureaucracy and a total dismantling of federal agencies. Point three is a remake of the power ministries of justice and the FBI to have Them to be installed with hacks, political hacks. Fourth point to the situation is that now our legal policies, in the spirit of a Roman general, no better friend, no worse enemy than our Justice Department, you write there are other aspects of the full scale situation that are maybe a tier down from those four in seriousness, such as immigration actions, indiscriminate war on DEI programs, the bizarre economic policies that are rattling markets, the attempt to oust transgender people from the military, the overt corruption, such as the president turning the White House lawn into a car dealership showroom. And with that, you get the point. The full scale situation involves a significant measure of everything everywhere, all at once. Would you like to expound on that? Did I summarize it?

[Ben Wittes]

Well, you know, the phrase the full scale situation is, of course, a joke on the Russian full scale invasion of Ukraine. And the, the reference is the idea that, you know, if you talk to Ukrainians, the war has been going on since 2014, which is, by the way, right around the same time that the situation that is Trump arose in the United States. But then there was this acute moment in, you know, February 24th of 2022, when it became a full scale invasion, which is when Americans tend to, and Europeans tend to say the war started. Right. And this, we've had the situation for a long time. But then there's this acute mom moment January 20th, where we started dealing with the full scale situation. And it, you know, the point that I was trying to make in that column is that one of the reasons the thing feels so overwhelming is that each and every one of these major areas that you just identified would be an absolute revolution in American politics and policy all by itself. Right. If all you have the last two months was a wholesale revolution in US Foreign policy, that would be a dramatic earthquake of a change. If all you had was the turning of the power ministries and into instruments of power against enemies and impunity of friends, that would feel revolutionary. If all you had was the war on the bureaucracy, that would feel revolutionary. You know, and to do all of this all at the same time, you know, it, it creates this sense of overwhelming. You know, it's like being hit with a tsunami and then with an earthquake and then with, you know, all right. At the same time. And all of that makes it very, very difficult to assess in real time. How's it going? It feels awful. Right. But is he winning or is he, you know, kind of supernovae? Right. Is, is it more important that, you know, the economic data is pretty bad on this stuff Right. Or is it more important that he's successfully gotten rid of a gazillion public servants? Right. And it's very hard to prioritize analytically and figure out what really is going on. How effective is the judicial pushback, for example? So I guess the point I was trying to make in the colum is, you know, if it feels overwhelming, it's because it actually is overwhelming and it's going to take a while for it to sort out. And don't try to assess it now. Just try to, you know, breathe through it.

[Tim Miller]

So I can't ask you to assess it now. That's what you're telling me. I can't say, well, Ben, what is, what is the thing that you think has the big, longest term ramifications?

[Ben Wittes]

So I guess what I would say is almost all the things that we focus on intensely for very good reasons. So let's consider the matter that you've been blowing steam out your ear about the Venezuelan deportations. Right. This has enormous consequences for the liberty of a bunch of individuals, some of whom are probably not gang members. And in the broad scheme of things is, you know, hugely important for the people in question. And ultimately America has seen improper deportations without due process before and, you know, survived it reasonably intact. You know, some of the issues, the destruction of the bureaucracy is, you know, going to pull at people's heartstrings a little bit less unless they know people who've been dismissed or, or agencies that have been destroyed. And yet, if you're talking about what the long term consequences are, this is just enormously important stuff for the ability of. It's very hard to rebuild an agency that you've destroyed. And then similarly at the tectonic level, and this one, honestly, I'm a little bit more encouraged by. It's not clear to me that he's made any real progress with the impoundment stuff. So I do think that's at the democratic tectonic level, the most important question we're dealing with, it's the least important for human liberty and justice and for.

[Tim Miller]

People that ears glaze over whenever I mention impoundment. Can you just explain what you're, what you're referring to?

[Ben Wittes]

So an impoundment is when Congress appropriates money to do thing X and the President says, I'm not doing thing X. Right. Not spending that money.

[Tim Miller]

No.

[Ben Wittes]

So this doesn't have consequences for human liberty. It's not a matter of justice or it's just a matter of whether Congress is really a co. Equal branch or not, and whether when Congress says we're giving appropriating money to do something, whether the president has to do it, or whether the president really actually controls the other purse string. So it's a revolution in constitutional law and the question is whether he's going to get away with it. And so far there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that he's getting away with it. And so I do think that side of it is pretty encouraging, although very preliminary.

[Tim Miller]

Elevating your style used to mean breaking the bank, but with Quints, you can get high end, versatile pieces at prices you can afford. Now you can update your style by snagging killer luxury essentials that sync with your vibe and wallet. Quince has all the must haves, like Mongolian cashmere sweaters from 50 bucks, iconic 100% leather jackets and comfortable pants for every occasion. The best part, all Quince items are priced at 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the middleman and passes the savings on to us. I never know until I sit in the chair what who our sponsor is for the day. So this is the first time it's happened. I'm wearing my Quint shirt right now for YouTube viewers. You can see it here. I'm really, I'm enjoying it. I like the piping. The listeners, you can't tell, but you can, you can come look at, look at a picture of me on the Bulwark on YouTube or you can just imagine it in your head. This little navy blue short sleeve number looks nice, feels it's good for a podcast. It might be good for a little, you know, ride on the Mississippi. If I wanted to get out on a boat and have a glass of this would be a nice shirt to wear. A lot of options, very versatile. A lot of stuff at Quint's highly recommend it. So indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quints.com the bulwark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com thebullwerk to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com thebullwerk which transitions us nicely to the encouraging but preliminary comments from the Chief justice of the Supreme Court about the rolling constitutional crisis that we are experiencing. This was with regards to the, I guess he didn't say that it was with regards to Trump statements, but there were statements by several people, including the president, about the Judge Boasberg that had put the stay on the aforementioned Venezuelan deportation case that I have steam coming out of my ears over. And several people are saying that this judge should be impeached. And Tom Homan, the immigration czar, you know, said directly that he doesn't think the administration should listen to judges or follow their, their orders when it comes to these deportations. The Chief justice said this yesterday. For more than two centuries, it's been established that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision. The normal appellate review process exists instead for that purpose. You know, not exactly a, a rip roaring denunciation that would do well on a TikTok, but pretty clear disagreement with the President's statements on this. So I'm wondering what you made of it.

[Ben Wittes]

All right, so John Roberts, first of all, is an extremely measured human being. He, you know, think of somebody who has been planning to be Chief justice of the United States since he was 9 or 10. He is in enormously careful with what he says. And when he issues a statement like that, it is worth parsing every word of it and noting what he did say and what he didn't say. And so he says there three things. The first is talk about impeaching judges because you disagree with them is dangerous. The second is if you disagree with a judge, appeal it, right? As in, send it up to me because, you know, he sits atop the appellate hierarchy. And here you can split the analysis, right? You can say, if you have a problem with Judge Boasberg, bring it to us and we'll fix it. Don't bring up this impeachment stuff. We're reasonable up here. If you got a problem with him, bring it to us. Right? So that would be the cynical way to look at it. The other way to look at it is to note that John Roberts appointed Boasberg to be the Chief Judge of the FISA court at one point. You know, he's the Chief judge of the D.C. district Court. This is a guy who Roberts knows. And Roberts is saying here, hey, you got a problem with a D.C. circuit district judge, you got a problem with us? You know, bring it on. I have followed this case pretty closely. I watched the hearing or listened to the hearing that Boasberg had on Monday. There is a jurisdictional question as to whether this case should be in front of Judge Boasberg at all. But this is a very measured and serious district judge. I think what Roberts is saying here is stop political attacks on district judges, and particularly ones who are doing their jobs and trying to rule in hard cases under very difficult circumstances.

[Tim Miller]

I want to get back to Roberts just because I want to pick your brain on scotus, but just since you've been following that case closely, and let's get into the Bose rug case a little bit, what do you make of, I guess, the disagreement at this point? Right. The administration is saying essentially that this plane was already in the air over international waters. You can't turn it around. They don't have jurisdiction. Bozberg's saying, essentially, they haven't proven it, I guess, that the plane actually was over international waters, I guess. Is that the crux of the disagreement at this point?

[Ben Wittes]

Well, I think there's a deeper level of disagreement, which is that this was originally styled as a habeas case. Normally, you bring a habeas case where the prisoner is being held, which in this case would be the 5th Circuit down your way. But it was brought in the D.C. court. The petitioners seem to have dropped the habeas component of it, but it's not clear to me what's left. And so the administration was extremely aggressive in how they dealt with Judge Boasberg's order over the weekend or on Friday.

[Tim Miller]

Aggressive in one sense. What do you mean by that?

[Ben Wittes]

Well, you know, he ordered the planes turnaround, and they ignored that. And there is going to be a contempt question as a result of that. He's been quite measured in not racing to get to that question. And what he did on Monday is he said to the administration, you know, you need to give me chapter and verse on what happened with each of these planes by tomorrow, which was yesterday. So the administration responded by saying in court, you know, we can't give you that information. And he said, basically, is it classified? And they said, no, not really, but. Or they wouldn't say it was classified. And so the. The first thing that's going to happen here is he's going to try to find out what he can find out from them, and then he's going to hold it up against, you know, his order and say, can this plausibly be said to be compliant with the order? I think the answer to that question is no. But then he may get tripped up along the way by the fact that it's not clear that he has jurisdiction over the matter in the first place. And so all of this is going to come to a head on Friday when there is a hearing scheduled. And I fear that the administration will get away with this because they were basically, the plaintiffs may have brought the case in the wrong court in the first place. And so he may have issued an order that he didn't really have the authority to issue under the specific circumstances.

[Tim Miller]

So some of these people have been deported, you know, have attorneys. Some of them don't. Right. Like, some of them, you know, were whatever apprehended and, you know, never got access to an attorney.

[Ben Wittes]

Correct.

[Tim Miller]

The ones that do have representation, either ACLU or immigrant defenders, they're now disappeared in El Salvador. Right. Like, a lot of these lawyers don't even actually know, aren't even sure that they're in El Salvador, but they just presume. But they're not American citizens.

[Ben Wittes]

They're not American citizens, and they're no longer in US Custody.

[Tim Miller]

So is there any remedy for those individuals in court? Like, are there any individual cases that could still come up, or is this all more of a constitutional question at this point?

[Ben Wittes]

Well, so first of all, the named petitioners and plaintiffs are all still in the country, and Boasberg verified that the other day. This again, gets to this question of how the case is styled. Right. If it's styled as a habeas case, we don't have custody of these people anymore. Unless you can make an argument that the salvadorans are holding them for us, which I assume the plaintiffs will try to make because they're being paid. They're. So could you make an argument that they're constructively in US Custody? Yeah, it's going to be tough.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Ben Wittes]

To the extent that the case is not a habeas case, but some other kind of case, you know, the complaint throws in a lot of different claims. You know, it's conceivable to me that there's a remedy. But I think the question of what this case is bears on that a lot. And because it was generated so quickly, you know, it's actually hard to pin down precisely what the question is.

[Tim Miller]

That's so fucking just enraging.

[Shopify Ad]

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, allbirds or skims, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand, and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling, and for the shoppers, buying simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than shopify. Home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret with shop pay, that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify, upgrade your business and get the same checkout skims uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com audioboom all lowercase go to shopify.com audioboom to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com audioboom.

[Tim Miller]

So back to the Supreme Court. There's an Axios story out this morning by our old colleague Marc Pudo talking about what the administration's strategy is here. To the extent they have a strategy and essentially the article states that they want to force these immigration cases up to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has traditionally been, you know, somewhat reluctant to take on immigration cases for a variety of reasons, but they want to force their hand. Trump Advisor says to Caputo, we have the law and we have the numbers on the court. We've always known this is where this all ends up. So like they on the questions particularly related to the Alien Enemies act, which is this Venezuela case, and the Immigration and Nationality act of 1952, which is related to the Khalil case and, you know, the deportation of the student protesters, they essentially want the court to the Supreme Court to be the final arbiter on all this. And I'm curious what you make of that and whether there's any Roberts criminology as these cases start to head his way.

[Ben Wittes]

Yeah. So let's break it down by different subject matter areas. So there is no doubt that there is a lot of very strong statutory law that gives the administration a lot of power in the immigration space, particularly if somebody is not already in the United States. Right. Then you can deny them a visa. It's almost plenary.

[Tim Miller]

Or if they even had a visa and they left. Me and Crystal gave a pretty sympathetic read of the Brown professor situation on Monday's POD before all the information came out. And as we have more information like that one is like, I don't know, I think that woman is in a lot tougher of a situation. She had gone to Lebanon to go to the funeral of Nasrallah or something and like tries to come back into the country. And that becomes very, very dicey for having your visa getting pulled for that or your visa getting pulled. If you're working in the country and you're not supposed to be pulling people's visas for that sort of stuff. They've got a lot of power.

[Ben Wittes]

They've got a lot of power. So the flip side is that there are these statutes that give Them so much power that it is actually hard to square with other constitutional norms. And the, the provision that says if the Secretary of State decides that you are a threat to US Foreign policy, you know, they can throw you out of the country or revoke your lawful permanent resident status. You know, that's going to be a real question. And there's no doubt that the statutory law is strong on the executive branch's side. Other executives have been careful about how they use it because it does rub up against certain due process and First Amendment norms. You have as an lawful permanent resident, First Amendment rights, except that the government can revoke your lawful permanent resident status over it. Right. There's a real conundrum there that successive.

[Tim Miller]

You have First Amendment rights. Caveat, caveat, caveat.

[Ben Wittes]

And you know, this is an issue that's been lurking around actually with Palestinian sympathetic or sometimes activists. A case involving eight guys in Los Angeles and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine under this statute was one of the first national security cases I ever wrote about in the 90s. And so this issue has been around for a long time. It first came up in the context of communists in the, in the 1950s. Most administrations have dealt with it by being very careful with the statute. This administration, the whole careful thing, they don't do that. So we're going to find out. Now, there are other immigration related provisions that I think are just, they're just delusional if they think they're just going to win. So let's start with the birthright citizenship stuff. No judge anywhere in the country has sided with them in their reading of birthright citizenship. I don't think that's going to be different at the Supreme Court. You know, do they maybe have two votes for that? Sure, if you roll the dice. Well, could they get three? Yeah, I don't think they're getting five. And I don't care how much chess thumping they do about it. The Alien Enemies act is more similar to that than to, oh really? The Alien Enemies Act. Here's what it actually says. Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted or threatened, against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government. So that's the precondition for invoking the Alien Enemies Act. So tell me, is there a declared war? Do we have a foreign government that has made a predatory incursion against the United States? I just don't see the preconditions of the Statute having been even approached, let alone met. Now, I know you can issue an executive order. An executive order from this administration is really just a fancy word for press release that says, you know, we're invoking the Alien Enemies Act. But in a U.S. district court or at the Supreme Court, you actually have to argue that the Alien Enemies act lets you do this. And I don't see where you get the votes for that. So, look, have I been wrong about the Supreme Court on the optimistic side before? Yes. Am I confident that these are losing arguments before this Supreme Court? No. But the day that I say, okay, the Supreme Court is just a rubber stamp for the Trump administration, I may as well go into a different business. This, my job is to read the law and say, you know, what should happen and what.

[Tim Miller]

Well, and we've already had, we should say, like David French does like to point out that the Supreme Court, the first Trump 1.0, you know, went against what the government was arguing more times than any court since FDR.

[Ben Wittes]

Yep.

[Tim Miller]

And we've already seen in Trump 2.0 now, you know, Barrett and Roberts side against them on, on some of these Doge cases.

[Ben Wittes]

So we should all be appropriately cynical about the Supreme Court. Yeah, but you shouldn't be overly cynical about it. Right. It's not a body like Congress where you can say, okay, Donald Trump says X and there are, you know, 220 Republicans. So 220 Republicans in the House are going to vote for X. It's not that simple. Law does matter. Still a bit.

[Tim Miller]

Are you sure about that? Because the co president, Elon Musk quote tweeted yesterday, Valentina Gomez, longtime listeners of the POD will know this niche character. She was running for office in Missouri as a Republican, in a primary, as a MAGA Republican and did a big ad about how people should not be fake and gay. She posted a image yesterday of her that sort of like, it was kind of like some ISIS cosplay where she had the gun in front of somebody's head who was tied to a chair and had like a bag, a black bag over their head. Elon retweeted this Great American when she wrote that the only path forward is impeaching all the corrupt judges. Government shouldn't follow these district judges orders. Elon says this is the only way.

[Ben Wittes]

Right. So I would say they wouldn't be doing that if they didn't fear that the judges were actually likely to rule against them and that. Do I think that rhetoric is disgusting? Absolutely. But I also think it reflects the fact that they at least perceive the courts as a real impediment. And if you look at the court's behavior over the last 60 days, it has been an impediment. Perhaps not as much of one as we would like, but it has been. The courts have been real.

[Shopify Ad]

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, Allbirds or Skims. Sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling and for the shoppers, buying. Simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret with shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Skims uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com audioboom all lowercase go to shopify.com audioboom to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com audioboom.

[Tim Miller]

There was a Trump Putin call yesterday. Putin made Trump wait for an hour or more while he was on stage at some event. Somebody shouted out to Putin that like, shouldn't you be on with Trump now? He kind of like dismisses it, says oh, he can wait. So Putin makes Trump wait for an hour. They have a lengthy call. The US Statement on the call I want to read from the leaders agreed that the movement to peace will begin with an energy and infrastructure ceasefire as well as technical negotiations on the implementation of a maritime ceasefire in the Black Sea. With full ceasefire and permanent peace hopefully coming after these negotiations will begin immediately. In the Middle east, the two leaders agreed that a future with an improved bilateral relationship between the United States and Russia has huge upside. This includes enormous economic deals and geopolitical stability when peace has been achieved. As the US Statement, Putin put out a much longer statement that listed all the things that he's demanding from the US That Trump had not agreed to, including his top priority being and to all foreign military aid and assistance into Ukraine. Later, Trump in an interview said that they had not discussed that. Later, the Kremlin put out a statement that said, oh yeah, actually we did discuss that. While that back and forth was going on, Russia was bombing energy infrastructure in Ukraine, which is an interesting interpretation of an energy and infrastructure ceasefire. So we sit here today, Wednesday morning, with that is the state of play. What do you make of it?

[Ben Wittes]

All right, a few things. So the first is, I think it is interesting that Putin wants any ceasefire to start with energy infrastructure. And that's interesting because, you know, this is an area where he hits Ukrainian power grids. That's energy infrastructure, Ukrainian hit Russian oil depots and, and refining capacity. And the Ukrainians have been actually quite effective reducing Russia's capacity to produce oil, which is its most important export and, you know, funding mechanism. And so this is an area where the war is not reciprocal because the Russians are targeting Ukrainian civilian power. Right, whereas the Ukrainians are targeting the Russian capacity to make war. But it's not completely unreciprocal in that both sides have vulnerabilities here and both sides. And I think it's actually a reflection of Russian vulnerability on the energy front that Putin wants to start here. That said, the larger picture is that Putin doesn't want a ceasefire, and so he's narrowing and narrowing and narrowing the zone of what ceasefires can cover until it basically says, look, I'll stop hitting civilian power plants and you stop hitting my refineries. That's Putin's idea of a ceasefire. It is embarrassing that the United States is characterizing this as constructive. You know, this is like, I'm going to keep the President of the United States waiting for an hour and then say no to him and say, yeah, my idea of a ceasefire is that the Ukrainians stop hitting my refineries for 30 days, and then I'll, you know, screw things up and that we sell that. As, you know, this was a constructive call. I think the real question here is at what point, if any, does Trump get impatient with this? Does he realize that he's being taken for a ride in a very North Korean kind of way? Or is he so committed, for whatever reason, to his pro Putin sentiment that Putin can kind of, in the long run, make a fool of him the way he has done in the short run? And I fear the answer is the latter and hope very much that the answer is the former.

[Tim Miller]

There are so many words contained within for whatever reason. You know, there's like, there are essays and books and histories that could be written within for whatever reason?

[Ben Wittes]

I want to say I am genuinely agnostic about what the reason is.

[Tim Miller]

Like you, interpersonal. Is it Krasnov? Is it pettiness? Is it. Is there money? Is our Russian crypto money? Like, you know, all the above or.

[Ben Wittes]

Or is it just that, you know, people like me have been saying for eight years, why are you, you know, kowtowing to Putin? And so he's just doubled down on it so many times that it's like, you know, his answer to everything is, Russia, Russia, Russia.

[Tim Miller]

Stubbornness.

[Ben Wittes]

How much of it is just a robotic response? I really don't know the answer.

[Tim Miller]

Or this impression. I think it was me and Bill or me and Michael Weissler were talking about this. It was so revealing after the just sham of that Oval Office meeting with Zelensky when he said that Putin's been going through this. There was this Russia investigation and Putin's been going through. He does seem to believe that, like, him and Putin are kind of in this together at some level against these other forces of globalism that are trying to bring both of them down, you know, and so that situation only exists in his own head. But it was an informative aside, an insight into how he thinks about this.

[Ben Wittes]

One of the weird things about him, and you see this in the original Zelensky phone call too, that he does have a way of internalizing his own bullshit. And so, remember, there was this crazy Rudy Giuliani conspiracy theory that the DNC server somehow ended up in Ukraine or ended up.

[Tim Miller]

I wrote like a 3,000 word explanation of this conspiracy. I'm very deep on the server. Crowdstrike.

[Ben Wittes]

You read the transcript of that phone call. The first thing he says, you know, people say the server was controlled by a Ukrainian company. Like it wasn't just a. Like he at some level believed it enough to raise it with the president of Ukraine. Right. And I do think there's some level of smoking your own supply in that stuff. So, yeah, for whatever reason was meant to cover a lot of ground. And it's a very rich territory what, what it could imply.

[Tim Miller]

I talked to Tim Mack over the counteroffensive a little bit yesterday. People can check that out on YouTube or on the Bulwark Takes feed. But you have a lot of context also on the Ukrainian and kind of Ukrainian circles. How do you want to say it? Resistance. And the Ukrainian resistance. What does everybody make of all this at this point? I mean, there seem to be maybe, obviously you can paint with a broad brush. Ukraine's a big country, people have different views. But there was some kind of false hope, I think, after the election that maybe this would be similar to Trump 1.0, where, like, when push came to shove, to your point, like, if eventually Putin would embarrass him enough that Trump would feel Just like, you know, almost as a man to have to protect his manhood, that he would have to, you know, give Ukraine what is necessary to defend itself. The hope for that, I think, seems to be dwindling substantially. And I'm wondering what you perceive as the view from the Ukraine side at this point.

[Ben Wittes]

All right, so first of all, there's. Ukraine is an enormously complicated relationship with the United States right now because they are super aware that, you know, the White House is spouting Kremlin propaganda. They are very, very sensitive to signs of rapprochement between Washington and Putin, and they are also super, super aware of the fact that they don't have obvious alternatives to the United States. Right. So if you're. If you're Europe, you can say this is an opportunity for us to step up. Right. But nobody really knows how much Europe is going to be capable of stepping up, and their actual historical capacity to do it is, you know, it's not a story that's shrouded in glory. And there's a lot of mistrust between the Ukrainians and the Europeans. And so unl, like almost anybody else in the world who can shift, in some ways, the Ukrainians are really, really dependent on continued US Backing. And by the way, this plays out in the course of a war that they are actually fighting right now. There's nothing hypothetical about it. And so I would describe the reaction as a combination of deep, deep betrayal, sense of betrayal that is going to take a generation for us to deal with. You're quite correct that there was a. A sense of false hope, even Trump optimism that was pervasive in Kiev after the election, largely as a function of frustration with Joe Biden, who they thought of as very slow. They were kind of attracted, or a lot of Ukrainians were kind of attracted to the idea that Trump was a macho, blow hard who, you know, if we can just get him to blow hard in the right direction. Right, yeah, right.

[Tim Miller]

Cowboy. Kind of American cowboy.

[Ben Wittes]

Exactly. A little bit of confusion of Trump with George W. Bush. And then there's also, and this is the part that's just heartbreaking, is a sense of despair and what the hell are we going to do now? Because it's not like there's an obvious place to turn. Instead, and Ukrainians, because of lots of aspects of their history, it's a. It's a fairly stoic culture that doesn't value, you know, emotive expressions of despair. The rhetoric will all be, we're going to keep on fighting. You know, that sort of thing. But there's a real. There's a real sense of we are. And, you know, for a lot of them, it's not just about lost territory. It's about the future capacity of the country to prevent Russia from destroying it. It's about family members who are in, you know, occupied territories, of which, you know, it's 20% of the country. And so it's a very tragic situation that one of the interesting things about has been the rallying behind Zelensky. You know, he. Two months ago, real politics had returned to Ukraine, and there was a lot of criticism of Zelensky, not now. And, you know, you humiliate a country's democratically elected leader in the White House, and you're going to learn something about the way the country rallies behind him. And so there's a lot of pride in Zelensky, and there's a lot of sense of, I'm a domestic political opponent of his, but you can't treat my president that way. And so it's a very complicated set of feelings. And I would say the only. You know, it's in some ways similar to the reaction in Canada.

[Tim Miller]

Canada. I was gonna say the parallels are pretty striking. Obviously, more intense.

[Ben Wittes]

More intense, but also less intimate.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Ben Wittes]

And Canada doesn't have an ongoing shooting war that they're completely dependent on, but the sense of decoupling from something that has broken bad all of a sudden in ways and for reasons that you don't understand and that is weirdly directed at you.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Wittes]

Is very similar.

[Tim Miller]

The other thing to rightfully despair over. The Trump administration halts a program to track abducted Ukrainian children. Lawmakers say, I'm trying to get Greg Landsman, who's a Democratic lawmaker, on to discuss this. So later, check out our YouTube or the board page. Hopefully we can have that up to there tomorrow. Landsman wrote this in a letter. The US now has reason to believe that data from this repository has been permanently deleted. If true, there'd be devastating consequences. The repository was basically this trove of research that we had been providing, including satellite imagery and other data about some of the 30,000 children that had been abducted from Ukraine. Apparently, the State Department has just erased it.

[Ben Wittes]

Yeah, so I read that story in the New York Times this morning, and I have to say, I couldn't get through it.

[Tim Miller]

I literally couldn't believe it's true. I texted Landsman. I was like, this cannot possibly be true.

[Ben Wittes]

Like, I have no information to add this. So this is an issue that I've spent a lot of time on a bunch of my projections at the Russian embassy are about the stolen kids. And one of the many maddening things about the Russian full scale invasion has been the theft of children. And by the way, they're not subtle about it. There was a woman who has a stolen Ukrainian child who was talking about it on Russian television with Putin that she's, you know, they couldn't have children and those, she got this Ukrainian child. I mean, I mean it's really, it's really vile. And to have the US administration not merely not playing a constructive role, but, you know, dropping hints and news that we're going to recognize the Russian annexation of Crimea, which is, you know, a place where the Russians engaged in a recent, you know, 1944 genocidal deportation of the entire Crimean Tatar population. The fact that we are contemplating recognizing the legitimacy of the Russian invasion of Crimea, that we are actively erasing the data that we helped collect on 20,000 Ukrainian children forcibly deported, stolen from their parents and deported to Russia. I mean, I just don't know how to talk about it except with stuttering anger and rage. It's, it's just that there's nothing to be said for it other than other than that it is, we're trying, or the administration is trying to make its own deals with Russia more palatable by erasing the evidence of their evil.

[Shopify Ad]

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, Allbirds or Skims. Sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling and for the shoppers, buying simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret with Shopay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Skims uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com audioboom all lowercase go to shopify.com audioboom to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com audioboom.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, let's close the voice of America. My old friend Kari Lake is gutting it. You wrote about this at length for Lawfare. Unilateral disarmament and the disinformation wars. I don't think I've talked about this VOA at all, really, on the pod. So why don't you give people a brief on what's happening there?

[Ben Wittes]

All right, so what happened was Trump issued an executive order on Thursday or Friday, I can't remember which it was, that basically ordered usagm, which is the parent organization of voa, to shut down, except to the extent that it's statutorily required. VOA then put essentially all of its journalists on leave and then terminated them the next day. So VOA effectively doesn't exist anymore. This is mostly invisible to Americans because VOA doesn't broadcast to Americans. VOA broadcasts in 49 languages to 355 million people every week all over the world in areas where good, honest news is difficult to come by. This is one of the great news organizations in the world. I have dealt extensively with their Eastern Europe language services, both their Russian and Ukrainian services, because of my Russian embassy protests. But, you know, everything I'm about to say, you know, you're interested in Cambodia, you're interested in, it's an extraordinary operation, or it was until this weekend. And why do we do this? The answer is, during World War II, actually getting truthful news into the ecosystems of occupied Europe was important. And during the Cold War, getting news. Most Ukrainians found out about Chernobyl because of Voice of America. And to this day, Ukrainians in occupied parts of the country get their news from VOA. And I think there were about 100 people in the Russian language service and about 40 in the Ukrainian language service. All of them are unemployed today. You know, play that out over whatever, you know, broadcasting in Swahili, broadcasting in French, broadcasting in Spanish. There are lots of people around the world that this is going to affect in terms of the quality of their information supply. And so you ask yourself the question, why would the administration do this? And the answer is actually completely simple, which is, if you don't want to counter Russian disinformation, why would you have a news service that tells the truth? People might believe it. It's counterproductive. If you don't want to counter Chinese disinformation, why on earth would you have a news service that get brought people honest news in Chinese? If you don't want to undermine autocracies in Iran or the, you know, the Gulf, why on earth would you do serious news in Persian or Arabic? And this is an administration that wants to build entire edifices of foreign policy based on lies. As we Were just discussing erasing data about stolen Ukrainian children. If you're going to do that, it doesn't make sense to have a news service that's bringing people actively valuable information. But it is a profound, profound change from what Ronald Reagan said in 1982 or three in a 40th anniversary speech at VOA where he said, you know, now as then, the truth is a weapon on our side. And, you know, Trump clearly doesn't believe that. And so you erase data sets that reveal the truth and you also fire people whose job it is to reveal the truth. And, you know, if I sound emotional about this, I have a lot of friends who lost their jobs over this. And by the way, a bunch of them are going to have visa problems now as a result of it. To link it to your immigration points.

[Tim Miller]

God, that's really depressing. The truth not being on our side. Now, let me give you the MAGA straw man on this. That would be the Winnie the Pooh and the tuxedo argument instead of the we're just on the side of the baddies now. And that is, you know, that all is before the Internet. Like, people can get information now in a variety of ways. It's not like the old days where we need to radio in and people are overwhelmed with information, frankly. And maybe it's not a good use of resources anymore.

[Ben Wittes]

Okay, that's a fine argument. If you get rid of the whole technical barriers stuff, VPNs and whatever, people can get information. Who is producing high quality news about the United States in Russian, who's doing it in Chinese, who's doing it in Persian, in Farsi, maybe we don't want that actually.

[Tim Miller]

Right. For the next four years, at least. High quality information about what we're doing.

[Ben Wittes]

That's the point. Right? Like, yeah, can people access the New York Times if they have the right VPNs and if they know how to circumvent the Great Wall? Yeah, they can access the New York Times. Can they read it? Is somebody producing a product that is, in their language, useful to them? And by the way, VOA reports different things than the New York Times, because if you're living in, in Cambodia, what you want from Radio Free Asia is not the same information. New York Times isn't doing stuff on Cambodian politics. Right. And so, yes, it is true that information is available to those who want to go out and get it, but it is not, you know, 355 million people are not going to go get VPNs and do their own translations of the high quality information.

[Tim Miller]

Final thing on this, I was listening to the pod save the world guys talk about this and I have to close with this. Fuck around and find out. For Marco Rubio, one of the other elements of VOA is this radio and TV Marty, this is in South Florida, in Miami. It is a Spanish language news that targets Cuba. Cuba's trying to block this. And so a lot of the listeners of it are actually kind of like South Florida Cuban exile hardliners. And that shuttered it. Radio, TV Marty, shuttered. These have been big voters that move towards Trump. Marco Rubio is now the Secretary of State, was a big advocate for Radio Marty funding, obviously when he was in the Senate and representing Florida. There's an article I'm looking at right now of Mario Diaz Balart, that fucking cuck who is like saying, oh, I'm not worried, we're going to try to reverse it. And who knows, maybe they can maybe calls up Marco and we decide that that's the only outlet of VOA that we continue to fund or they find some rich billionaire to do it. But it's pretty intriguing that a bunch of jobs lost not somewhere else but in Miami for these outlets that have been serving Cuban, Cuban exiles and dissidents for, you know, 60, 70 years now.

[Ben Wittes]

Yep, it's not just VOA, it's Radio Marti, it's Radio Free Asia, Radio Free Europe. It's a whole bunch of different organizations. And yeah, there's this perception that they're kind of called war relics. Tell that to the people who listen to them. You know, these are admired and valued sources of news all over the world. And it's because they don't have a domestic face that sort of like usaid, they don't have, they don't do things domestically, they do things overseas. They're an instrument of US Soft power and they're very important to the people who they're important to. And we just decided not to do it anymore.

[Tim Miller]

Well, hope the Cubans are happy. Big move towards Trump down there in South Florida. I should say that Radio Marty's been around for 40, 40 years. Ben Whittis, thank you for your insight, your, your anger and, you know, everything else you guys are doing over there at Lawfair. People should go to Lawfare, check it out, read it, subscribe if you can handle it. And we'll be, we'll be talking to you again soon.

[Ben Wittes]

Take care.

[Tim Miller]

Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the board podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace.

[Unknown Musician]

I watch the cherry blossoms bloom. I cannot wait here any longer I'm leaving at the rising of the moon. I know what lies beneath Manhattan I know who's buried in Grant's tomb I wonder if there way to act clear away my crocodile I'm leaving out the rising of the moon. Now it's ask me about drive done. It's just the Russian world for truth. Your consciousness is not my problem cuz when I come home it won't be home to you. Your uncle Henry lived in Moscow, Yan Ludmila lived there too. Rena grew up in Wisconsin I'm leaving at the rising of the moon the final moments in the doorway the sacred light of afternoon something starts to shake the leaves you tuck off your T shirt sleeves and shiver till the rising of the moon now resets me back Try after it's after us. Your consciousness is not my problem cuz when I come home it won't be home to you.

[Tim Miller]

The Borg Podcast the podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

[Shopify Ad]

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, Allbirds or Skims. Sure you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling and for the shoppers, buying. Simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet and the not so secret secret with shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify, upgrade your business and get the same checkout Skims uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com audioboom all lowercase go to shopify.com audioboom to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com audioboom.