← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:08]
Tim Miller
Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Could not be more delighted to welcome for the first time, the Governor of Maryland, Wes Moore. What's going on, Governor TIM what's going on, man?
- [00:18]
Wes Moore
How you doing, man?
- [00:19]
Tim Miller
We're surviving. We're. We're living. We're out here. We talked the first time. I'll admit to you right now on the podcast, I was a little hungover. I forget why. I think I was on my book tour, when I was writing a book, and I was supposed to interview you. We were on the phone, and I was, like, driving between the Atlanta stop and the Tallahassee stop, and I'm hungover. I'm like, shit, I got to talk to. I got to interview Wes Moore. Anyway, that was during your 22 campaign. And during that interview, you were kind of talking to me about how the Democrats should kind of recapture this mantle of patriotism that there's a way to do to sell patriotism, progressive patriotism, and that's kind of what I framed the article on. And so now we're, three years later, Trump's back in there. Kamala tried to do a little bit of this, and it was a pretty patriotic campaign. I'm just wondering what. What you think about that. Is that still a fruitful path? Is that still something you're trying to do? Like, where are you at on that?
- [01:12]
Wes Moore
Yeah, it's definitely something that I'm doing, but we're doing it because it's authentic.
- [01:16]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [01:17]
Wes Moore
You know what I mean? And that's, I think, got to be. The key thing is that people need to know that you're real about it and that you're sincere. And the reason we talk about patriotism is not because it's going to win you electoral points. It's because you believe it. And I really do. Like, I. I believe in this country flaws and all, right? I believe in. In the fact that there's no way you can understand a journey like mine or a journey like my family's and not say there is something special and unique about the United States and something that I was willing to fight for, willing to lay my life down for. I come from a whole family of people who believe in this country. So I do believe that we have to be able to embrace this mantra of patriotism. I believe that we can't allow other people to just simply bastardize it the way that has oftentimes happened. When it comes to. When you're talking about. When you're looking at how a lot of MAGA world and Donald Trump and them talk about it. But I do think it's about not just blindly accepting this country or talking about this country as if its history doesn't matter. I actually think patriotism means saying, no, I'm not going to just sit down. I'm not going to just take it. I'm not just going to allow someone to take the country in the wrong direction. I'm going to fight and I'm going to fight for it. And I think that's actually the most patriotic thing that you can do right now.
- [02:35]
Tim Miller
I want to pick at a couple of those points, but for people who don't know you, who are being introduced to you now, you referenced your background and how this is tied into your background. So talk to us about that. You're a veteran growing up. Give us a little tldr on Wes Moore's life story.
- [02:50]
Wes Moore
Yeah, well, I mean, I was a kid who, frankly, when people talk about the breakdowns of this country and the inequalities of this country, I explain to people like I was born into it. You know, some of my first memories was literally watching my father die in front of me because he didn't get the health care that he needed. That some of my first memories was watching my mother not get her first job that gave her benefits until I was 14 years old, first job that gave her reliable hours. And this was an immigrant single mom who came to this country and eventually went on to get a master's degree and still did not get her first job that gave her benefits until her son was 14 years old. I had handcuffs my wrist by the time I was 11 years old. I joined the army when I was 17. I wasn't even old enough to sign the paperwork. My mother had to sign the paperwork for me. I went to a two year college so there was nothing about my life that said, oh, he's one day going to be the 63rd governor of the state of Maryland. My grandfather was the first one on my mom's side of the family born in this country. And when he was just a toddler, the Ku Klux Klan ran them out of the country. And so my life has been almost like consistently littered with this reminder of a brokenness of an American dream and an American promise in many ways. But I also know that I stand here as the 63rd governor of the state because my life has also been littered by the blessings of this country, by the blessings of people who are willing to sacrifice on my behalf and the people who are helping Me to actually see higher than myself. And so I never run for public office before in my life. I spent time in the army. I was a paratrooper with the United States military. I. I led soldiers in combat in Afghanistan. I came back and I started working in finance. I was working in investment banking. Then I started a business, had a. Had a successful exit in 2017. And then I ran one of the largest poverty fighting organizations in this country. And so one day I'm like, the issues I want to work on is I want to beat child poverty. I don't understand why society has child poverty. I understand the role that policy has played in all this. And I was like, I can just keep screaming about elected officials not doing things, or I can actually run for myself. So one day I was like, all right, I'm gonna run for governor.
- [05:05]
Tim Miller
You know, Democrats are struggling to read. I do outreach to tech Bros these days. And you just used exit as a verb. So I think. I think that could give you a little, you know, maybe a little help, a way to connect with the. You know, that's real, man. Look. All right, here's the thing. When you were talking about how you still feel patriotic, you love this country, flaws and all, sitting here in my head, I bet some listeners are doing that, and I'm kind of like, did it crack at all in November, that belief in the country? I mean, it feels like I've been so lucky and I'm so privileged. I've had such a great life. And so I feel almost silly kind of saying that my faith in the country is cracked. When you're telling a story about your grandfather getting kicked out of the country by the kkk. But I don't know, how do you live your life story and then see what the country decided to do in November and still. Still have that optimism?
- [05:56]
Wes Moore
Because I think I'm constantly reminded this country is not perfect. You know, I mean, like, I, like, I don't need enough reminders of America's imperfection.
- [06:05]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [06:06]
Wes Moore
You know, it's like, this has never been an even line when you think about the history of America. You know, the case of. The case of my grandfather, where, you know, some of his earliest memories was when his father was a. Was a minister and a very vocal minister. That's what got the Ku Klux Klan then making threats to our family. We're in the middle of the night, he picks up his family and he leaves. And they didn't just leave town. Like, they left this country and they went back to Jamaica. And most of my family always said that they would never come back to this country. And much of my family has never come back to this country, but my grandfather did, because he always felt that, as he always say, in all of his humility, this country would be incomplete without me. So he comes back to this country. He attends an HBCU in Pennsylvania, Lincoln University. He then becomes a minister like his father. Right. And what was crazy, Tim, is that the same threats that started coming to his father started coming to him, but he stuck. He never left. And he devoted the rest of his life to his faith, to his community, to his family. He devoted his life with a deep belief in this country. And I tell you, because he had a deep Jamaican accent his entire life, and he's maybe the most patriotic American I've ever heard.
- [07:27]
Tim Miller
Can you do it? Do you gotta?
- [07:28]
Wes Moore
Oh, yeah, I gotta. What do you need me to say?
- [07:31]
Tim Miller
No, I don't know. What do you want? Tell me about what you're having for dinner tonight.
- [07:36]
Wes Moore
Turkey and salfish.
- [07:39]
Tim Miller
All right, I like that.
- [07:40]
Wes Moore
But, you know. But he believed in this country, but it's not like he was ignorant to it. He believed in what it could be. And I just feel like it'd be real disrespectful to him and to everything he had to endure for me to turn around and say, because of an election, I'm done. You know what I mean? Like, this country is not built that way. If we said that every time there was a bad election in America, if we said every time there was a bad occurrence or a bad incident, then. Then none of this would be real.
- [08:14]
Tim Miller
This is a real bad one, though.
- [08:16]
Wes Moore
This is a real. No, honestly. And it's a real bad one because no one should be surprised.
- [08:21]
Tim Miller
Right?
- [08:22]
Wes Moore
That's the thing. All the stuff we're doing, we're seeing right now is not like we didn't warn you.
- [08:26]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [08:26]
Wes Moore
And frankly, it's not like Trump ain't warned you because he told you he was going. What he's going to do, and he's actually executing on it right now. And so I just feel like we have to remember that. What we also have to do is it's not even just about the people who went from. Okay, how does a person go from Clinton to Trump or Biden to Trump or Obama? Like, let's talk about the fact that there were tens of millions of people who just decided not to vote because they do not think this system works for them. And the reason I know who they are is in many cases, they're Actually, my family members. You know, I remember when I first ran for governor, I had to convince members of my family to vote for me when I was running for governor. And it's not that we're not cool. Like, we're cool. It's that they. I had to convince members of my family to vote.
- [09:16]
Tim Miller
You had to register to, like, care. To get to register.
- [09:19]
Wes Moore
And even the ones who are registered just to go out because it's like they don't see how this system works for them. And the truth is it hasn't. And that's why I think we have to be real, real careful about somehow spending our time defending a status quo when for real, for many people, the status quo never worked for them.
- [09:37]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [09:38]
Wes Moore
So how are you. You're defending something that's indefensible. That's. In many ways that has been Trump's genius, is that Trump has been a vessel for the frustration. He's just not a vehicle for the solution. He's going to tell you what's wrong, but then he's not going to have an offer or an idea as to how to make it better.
- [10:00]
Tim Miller
Let's talk about this in practice, because you're like, living a good example of this, because I think the Democrats are in a tough spot on this, because I hear you when you say the Democrats can't be defending the status quo. Right. Obviously, it's not what people want. You just have to listen to voters. Voters don't want politics as usual. They don't like the status quo. They don't think the status quo is working for them. All right? But then Trump gets in there and he's like, we're just going to willy nilly fire all these government workers. We don't care about any of these institutions. We're going to tear them all down. And now you're there in Maryland, a lot of those employees work in your state. Right. A lot of some of those institutions are headquartered in your state. And so you got to, like, defend the institution. Right. From these attacks, from this guy, but also not be the guy that's defending the status quo. How do you, how do you do. That's tough, right?
- [10:48]
Wes Moore
Yeah. But I don't think you have to defend the institutions. For me, this is not about saying, oh, everything about the institution is right and you all are not getting right. This is about saying, like, listen, I believe that there are certain things within these institutions that needed adjustments. I actually agree with you. For example, I was a White House fellow for both the State Department and usaid. And even when I was there, and that was shit, like, 12 years ago, something like that, maybe more 14 years ago, even when I was there, I was kind of like, how do these two things work? When you ask a single question about how much foreign aid are we giving to Botswana? Why do you need to talk to eight different people to get an answer? I actually have questioned that for a while. So it's not saying I'm defending the status quo. What I'm saying is there's a way to do this. There's a way to do this is actually data informed. There's a way to do this that is humane, and there's a way to do this that actually makes sense. And so, for example, one of the first people that I hired when I became the governor was I hired a chief performance officer for the first time in the history of the state. Their job exclusively for the past two and a half years, two years that I've been the governor, their job exclusively has been find the waste within our state agencies, find the things that were not working, find the things that we cannot give any quantifiable evidence of. Of. Of efficacy, and let's go fix it, nor eliminate it. And so, for example, we started doing things like saying, okay, take a look at fleet management, take a look at data consolidation and IT consolidation. Take a look at real estate. Why are there certain buildings that are sitting on our state's balance sheet? I'm like, what does that do? Get it off our balance sheet, right? Do a focus on procurement reforms, focus on consolidation of agencies that we can actually start to make sense so we can cut down costs, but sure that they're more efficient. That is a smart way of doing efficiency. And in turn, we have saved the people of this state tens of millions of dollars in doing so. What Doge is doing is just blatant inhumane, and frankly, uninformed cuts by people who have no idea what the hell they're talking about. There's a difference. The irony is, is that there are some things that Trump and them are doing that I'm like, you know, in theory, I actually, I kind of get it, and it kind of makes sense, and da, da, da. But yo, like, how we do things matters. And they are just deciding to, I mean, literally come after these people, come after these agencies in a way that is not at all informed and in a way that is deeply inhumane.
- [13:25]
Tim Miller
There's been so much shit happening up there, you know, and so you can take this question as about Doge or about anything, but, like, what has struck you from the first two months that has gotten you the most upset?
- [13:38]
Wes Moore
The way we treat our veterans. Like, I'm so pissed about this, man. I'm like, yo, these are people who. And I serve with a lot of them, right? These are people who just. Every time the country is asked, they've raised their hand. Every time the country is asked, they have said, I will take pay cuts. They said, I will leave my family. They said, I will pick up and move every two years. They have said, I will. I will miss occasions. I will miss children's birthdays because the country asked me to. Right? And the thing that gets me most about this is we didn't ask for anything in return. Just simply make sure that you honor your promises to us. Simply make sure that you're taking care of our families. We're not asking for anything that has not already been promised. And so when you're talking about taking out a federal bureaucracy, when you're talking about taking out federal workers, you're doing it without an understanding, or maybe with an understanding, which makes it even worse that one in three federal employees are military veterans. One in three federal employees are people who have taken off a uniform and are now showing up to make sure that our food is safe, who are now showing up every day to make sure that our seniors are getting health care, who are now making sure and showing up every day to make sure that our veterans and their families can be laid to rest in an honorable way. That's what they're doing. But then I'm now getting, you know, the Doge people who are coming in and saying, yeah, thanks for your service, but now we're gonna send you on your way. And I'm telling you, what we are doing to US Military veterans is disgusting. I mean, our state. I'm. I'm really proud of the way our state is being so aggressive in terms of the way we're responding. One of the things we're doing, one of the many things we're doing, is we're standing up these job fairs all over the state of Maryland. I was just at one yesterday, man. And we had a chance to meet with people who are military veterans. One guy named Jonathan, who I was actually with a couple weeks back. Jonathan was a US army veteran who now was working in Homeland Security, focusing on critical infrastructure protection. And Jonathan was told on Valentine's Day that Jonathan no longer had a job for no reason. I was talking to a guy, Steve, yesterday. Steve is a Republican who now gets up every morning and puts on a suit. So his kids don't know that he lost his job and he is now showing up at a job fair in Frederick County, Maryland with his resume looking to be hired, and he has yet to tell his kids that he no longer has a job because he's embarrassed. So he gets up every morning at the same time and puts on a suit. I'm disgusted at the disrespect that they have just repeatedly shown to our U.S. army veterans people and just military veterans, people who have done more to serve this country than they ever have or ever would. And these are the people that they're going after.
- [16:39]
Tim Miller
I'm sure you're kind of on whatever chats, texts, message boards, people, veterans from your time that are not particularly political per se. Is this bubbling out there? Is it percolating? Or do you think. Yeah, no.
- [16:52]
Wes Moore
And listen, I'm in a whole lot of text chains with a whole lot of vets, and a lot of them are conservatives. And to hear how the tone has changed over the process of these past weeks, this is real. Like people are realizing this is not what we thought and this is not the policies that we believed in or voted for or whatever the case is. So there is a sleeping giant that's now being awoken in the military veterans community.
- [17:19]
Tim Miller
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- [19:53]
Wes Moore
I don't know how you can claim to love this country or drape yourself in the flag when you're so disrespectful to Americans. Loving your country does not mean loving the ones who supported you. And loving your country does not mean lying about its history or masking entire segments of its history. Loving your country does not mean defending some of the people in the country. You know, loving your country means having a firm understanding that this country's arc has been deeply uneven. But the reason that we've been able to make progress is because we've had people who are believe. Who are willing to believe in the hope of all of us and not just some of us. It's difficult to look at the policies that we're seeing in place when their baseline is division, when their baseline is separation, when their baseline is going back to these old political tropes about what can you do to separate us? Because if you separate us and divide us, you have a better chance of winning fragmented elections. And that's what I think that this goal is. This is not about bringing us together. This is actually just about power.
- [21:07]
Tim Miller
That's not really about making us stronger either. You know, also, I just, like, look at how he's dealing with Canon Putin. Right. All like, the trend across all of these things to me is who sucks up to him the most. Right. And that's different. That's different than loving the country. Right. I don't think he's still. You think he even sees a difference now that he's been president twice, between the country and his country's interest and his interests? I don't. I don't think he. So there's no evidence of that. No.
- [21:30]
Wes Moore
And I think it's very clear about whose interests come first.
- [21:32]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [21:34]
Wes Moore
And think about it. You can argue that you believe in American competitiveness when you're directly going after many of the things that make America so competitive in the first place. You're going after things like our institutions of higher education, our research grants, the nih. Let's be clear. One of the things that makes America so powerful is the fact that we have some of the best research institutions in this country. One of the things that makes this country so unique is the fact that you have people who are coming from all around the world, the world's best and brightest, who want to come to the United States to learn, to train, to get their degrees, to start their families, and to build. It's the reason why our immigrant communities have been some of the strongest contributors to the United States. The. One of the United States superpowers is the fact that we are this beautiful melting pot of the world's best and brightest who all come here. We are the globe's dream team.
- [22:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [22:29]
Wes Moore
That's what the United States has always supported itself on. And some of the first things you go after are the institutions of higher education. Some of the first things you go after are our research institutions, the thing that's bringing them here. Some of the first things you go after is things like the nih I mean, you cannot argue that you believe in American supremacy or making this the golden age when you're actually directly going after the things that. That make America so unique in the first place and ceding that leadership to other countries.
- [22:59]
Tim Miller
Yeah, we're the world's 3 team, but it's kind of like everybody's Isaiah Thomas now. We're just cutting you out. Sorry. Sorry, bro. No, no. Isaiah's welcome. Anymore on the Dream Team. All right, man. I want to do a little.
- [23:10]
Wes Moore
That's right.
- [23:11]
Tim Miller
That's an elder millennial joke. That's a little. For people that were there in 92 formative years. The early Dream Team drama.
- [23:18]
Wes Moore
He wants to make us the 1988 Olympics. The 1988, and not the 92.
- [23:24]
Tim Miller
Just the college, just the white guy. You know, good fundamentals. All right, I want to do a little Maryland talk, and then we're going to end with politics and fun stuff. But, you know, you're actually the governor. You got a day job. You got a housing act right now that's going through.
- [23:42]
Wes Moore
Yeah.
- [23:43]
Tim Miller
It seems like maybe there's a little problem. I don't know. I'm not up to speed on, like, Maryland legislative drama that closely, but I've just been. I've been doing a little Googling, and, you know, it seems like there's some pushback on some of this.
- [23:54]
Wes Moore
Of course there is.
- [23:55]
Tim Miller
Housing is just such a. Yeah, so it's such an important issue. Anyway. Talk about what you're trying to do on housing and what the politics of it are.
- [24:00]
Wes Moore
Of course there's going to be. Because this is a really hard issue. Right. It's a hard issue that I'm not going to lose on, because it's one of the big reasons why we decided to run. If you think about. You know, think about this. And this is what's wild to him. The greatest driver of wealth in our nation and our nation's history has been housing, Right? People who are able to accumulate real estate. People accumulate value. That's how you're able to actually have generational wealth and generational wealth that you can pass on. The greatest driver of poverty in our society is housing insecurity. So if you look at housing is the barbell, right? Housing either can generate significant wealth or generate significant poverty, both generational. And so if you look at one of the biggest reasons why young Marylanders are considering leaving our state, it is because of one word. Housing. Right. Housing costs, housing affordability. But it all comes back to housing. And so I've been very clear. We have to build more housing. We have to be able to have more invent inventory. We have to be able to make sure that we're turning more renters into homeowners. We have to make sure that we're protecting our renters. We have to make sure that we're creating generational wealth. And if you look at what we did last year, we passed the most aggressive housing package of any Maryland governor in recent history. We focus on things like transit oriented development and density bonuses and making sure that we can provide more incentives for developers and knowing that there's places we should not build. But in the places where we should build and can build, we will build. Right? And I told the legislature and next year I'm coming back for more. And we are. And this year we have a whole new bill that's focusing around looking at the places where we have significant job growth and saying, but the job growth will be unsustainable unless you can build more housing, build more options for people to live in and create better incentives. And not only incentives, but also greater support for people to become homeowners. So, yes, it is hard and it is difficult.
- [25:59]
Tim Miller
The holdups are what, like just NIMBYism, red tape, environmental review? Like, what is it? All of the above.
- [26:04]
Wes Moore
It is people who will put arbitrary barriers in the way of it happening. Because change is tough and change is hard. And I get it. I also know we need to be better. If you want to grow an economy, if you want to invite more people in, if you want to bring housing prices down, you must increase inventory. You know, it's true. You know, many are saying that Maryland is probably one of the most aggressive states in the country right now when it comes to building more housing. I agree. Guilty as charged. That. Because a lot of people are not going to touch it because it is politically challenging. It is politically fraught. It is a third rail of American politics. I understand that. And we have to be unafraid to touch it, because if we do not, you will never be able to get the economic growth and the economic prosperity that you're hoping for. So, yes, I'm very aggressively pro housing. And. And we're going to continue to be as long as I'm the governor of the state.
- [27:01]
Tim Miller
What's happening with the key bridge rebuild? Last time I was doing Maryland talk on here, it was. It was with one of the reporters from. I think it's the Baltimore Banner, right after that happened. And I don't. I guess I don't know the latest.
- [27:11]
Wes Moore
How's that going yeah, well, you know, we're, we're. March 26th is the, is the year anniversary of the Key Bridge collapse. And I'm telling you, man, I'm never going to get that. That morning when I got a call at 2:02 in the morning that the, that the Key Bridge was gone and that the Port of Baltimore, which represents about 13% of our economy, was now shut down. A bridge that's about a two mile long bridge that 40,000 people went over every day was now in the bottom of the river and that we had six Marylanders who we lost that morning. So I remember that first morning we laid out four objectives as I stood there with a whole phalanx of leadership and I said, you know, we are going to bring closure and comfort to these families. We're going to reopen the federal channel as quickly as possible. And people told us it would take 11 months. We got it done in 11 weeks. We said we're going to make sure that everybody who was impacted was going to be supported. The port workers, their families, the small businesses. And we did that. And I said, and we are going to rebuild the Francis Scott Key Bridge. And so I'm thankful that late last year, with bipartisan support, Republicans and Democrats, Congress voted for the 100% cost share for the Key Bridge rebuild. So we're already in the process of moving. We are already doing the analysis of soil sampling starting off this spring. We're going to finish the final demolition of the pillars that are still up and start the reconstruction. But I'm really proud of the fact that Maryland put on a case study on how to respond in crisis because we responded in a unified fashion. And I think that's the only reason we were able to get this done as quick as we were able to.
- [28:46]
Tim Miller
One other thing you're working on for this year, you're talking about your state of the state and I'm aligned with you on the message. Some of the details we'll talk about here for a sec. And it is trying to deal with the issue facing young men. And I think that there's been some critique of the Democrats and everybody really, but the Democrats in particular, that there's been not a lot of focus on how young men have been falling behind and there's been focused on other demos. A couple of things you've brought up male paternity leave, increase the male teacher share, increased male health care providers, nurses educating providers about male suicide rates. So talk about that plan and what, what else you got in mind, you.
- [29:23]
Wes Moore
Know, and you're right. And this is another one. This is very personal to me. You know, people talk about what happened with men in the election. I'm like, the election shit, man. This has been going on a lot longer than that. Like, the election was the tail. We've known about this problem for a long time, and we've known about it because society has failed. You know, I think we did a really wonderful job. You look at the past 30 years, we looked at the data, and the data show that how women were just so significantly falling behind. And so there was a distinct and a very intentional move to be able to make sure that we're elevating women, getting, you know, coming to everything from education to employment to wealth creation to all this kind of stuff. And we were successful. That's exactly right. Pay a little better. That's exactly right. Right. So. And we were successful. Right. We still haven't gotten it exactly right. But to look at where the numbers were in the 60s and 70s and look at where the numbers are now, you've seen a drastic move. Well, all I'm asking is do the same thing we did then. Look at the data. Look at what the data right now is showing about when it comes to young boys and employment. Look at what the data is showing when it comes to suicide rates that we're seeing with young men. Look at what the data is showing when it comes to, I mean, college attainment levels. College attainment levels right now are the same level as they were for men and boys back when it was in 1964. Right. And so if you look at what's happening when it comes to juvenile justice within our state right now, where the juvenile justice system is so heavily dominated by boys and our young boys. And so all I'm saying is, y'all, we have to follow the data. And the data says if we do not put a distinct focus on young men and boys, we will fall behind because you will have repeatedly have young men who are falling behind. And so, yeah, so, you know, I. I've actually issued Bruno, probably the most aggressive in the country push to be able to deal with this issue. I've ordered all of my cabinet secretaries where we are coming together on this exact issue. And I'm actually having this as a lens on how I look at performance management for our cabinet secretaries about what ideas that we're working on together, together to be able to. To address it. It does go back to education levels. It does go back to things like employment and moving more men into. Into areas being like teachers and nurses and places where we have massive shortages of men in those areas. It does go back to making sure that we're supporting the juveniles and our young men who are involved in the juvenile justice system and getting them back onto a right track. And so we're thinking. We're thinking really broad based and holistically about it. But I have an exclusive focus. If we do not address what is happening with our young men and boys in the state of Maryland, the state of Maryland will never succeed. And I really do believe the state of Maryland is going to lead on this issue.
- [32:11]
Tim Miller
Yeah. I'm curious about your thoughts on the cultural element of some of this, because I'm for all that stuff that you said. I think that it's important the government do what they can on the edges. I think that we need more men teachers and I think that would make a huge difference in the lives of young men to have more men teaching in schools and to have that kind of role model. But I don't know, man. Part of this, I think is part of the problem with men is that there is like the sense of status loss. Like as the women have started to succeed more, as women are doing better in school, and there's this ego element to it. Right. That it's like, oh, man, now I'm depressed because it's harder for me to date because the girls in the dating pool, they're succeeding more than I am or whatever and like that. And I don't know that getting them a job, all respect to nurses and teachers, but I don't know that getting them a job as a nurse or a teacher for some of these men is going to solve that. Like that more deeper problem of status loss of falling behind, of not making the kind of money that their dad or granddad made. I don't know. What do you make of that?
- [33:15]
Wes Moore
I hear you and I think there's a lot of truth to that. But I think we stopped even trying and I think that that's noticeable too. Yeah, I think that we have stopped being curious, we've stopped caring, we stopped asking. And we look at so many times with young boys where we do not ever even really evaluate what was happening. I mean, I mean, I'm thinking about it. For me, right again, I was a kid who had handcuffs on my wrist at 11 years old.
- [33:44]
Tim Miller
What'd you do at that time?
- [33:46]
Wes Moore
I was for tagging.
- [33:47]
Tim Miller
Oh, okay. We shouldn't be putting handcuffs on anybody's wrists for tagging.
- [33:52]
Wes Moore
I agree.
- [33:53]
Tim Miller
That's just a. That's just Criminal justice woke. Tim's coming out here now. Thank you. I agree you should not be doing that. But anyway, okay.
- [33:59]
Wes Moore
Gagging and loitering in a drug free zone, that's crazy. But, but, but this is real, you know what I'm saying? But like, and I remember there would have all these meetings and I talked to my mother about this because even at school, because I ended up getting kicked out of school at, in seventh grade, end up going to a military school in eighth grade.
- [34:17]
Tim Miller
What'd you do in seventh grade? What'd you do for that?
- [34:19]
Wes Moore
That one was actually pretty justified. That was everything from skipping class to fights to there was an incident with a smoke bomb. It was bad. That that one actually was probably pretty disgusting. The handcuffs were not okay. The kick out of school probably was. But I say that because they would have all these meetings. And I remember talking with my mom about it where I was like, there all these people are meeting about me without me. Like they're talking about me. But never once did anyone ever ask me what is going on. Because the thing is, if they did, I might have actually told them. But there was never an interest to actually ask me what is up with the anger? Why are you constantly getting into fights? Why are you not showing up to school? That this was almost like you're dealing with me, like I'm a problem that has to be fixed. But not like I'm an asset and not like I actually had a say in this. And I think that's what happened. That is what happened with a lot of culture when it comes to men, and particularly black men, men of color, et cetera, young boys, et cetera, where we're just like, we're not being part of the conversation, we're just subjects of the conversation. And I remember I was at a barbershop once and by my son actually goes to the same barbershop that I went to when I used to have to get haircuts. So my son goes in, out, and I remember hearing this conversation that we're having and someone said something really interesting because they're talking about all the supports that are happening for black women. And one of the guys is a barber who actually is the. I think he has three girls. And so he's a real girl dad and all that kind of stuff. And he's like. But he's like, listen, I'm all for all the things that are happening to support my daughters. But he said, I just do not want black girl magic to turn into black boy. Tragic. And I thought that was such an interesting way of phrasing this out. It's almost like society stopped caring and society now deals with this issue of young men and boys as just a problem. And I think that that is part of the thing where to your point, I don't think there's even a level of curiosity that people have until we're talking about election rolls. But if that's what motivated you to start talking about this issue, then, dude, it's like you really don't get it, do you?
- [36:42]
Tim Miller
And part of that, I mean, this now does get us into the election, but it is related because part of that is like what you said at the top about trying is the first step. Right. And there's at this point on all the panels after the election, this is like a little fact that gets brought out a lot, which is that the DNC had a list of like affinity groups that they were reaching out to. It's everything under the sun. You know, it's like aanhpi, it's queer, it's veterans, it's old, it's young, it's everything. It's youth, it's everything except boys. That meant like, that's like literally.
- [37:16]
Wes Moore
And girls too.
- [37:17]
Tim Miller
Yeah, girls are on there. Right? So it's everything, like literally any group you could imagine. And so then my question is like, okay, is the answer just adding boys to that list or is it just fundamentally getting rid of this whole kind of way of categorizing everybody?
- [37:32]
Wes Moore
Yeah, I think what it is is just, it's being honest that everywhere, all anyone's hoping for is to be seen. You know, I'm not asking to be a category. I'm not asking to be a campaign platform. I'm not asking to be a talking point. Do you see me or not? Do you care about me? Do you care about my future? Are you actually interested in removing the barriers that in many ways have been intentionally put in front of me? The reason I had handcuffs on my wrist when I was 11 years old is because I came up in a community that was over policed and we knew it. A community that this was the way that young boys were dealt with. Right. Was criminalizing that. We came up in a framework where we knew that for a lot of the young boys who were learning differently than the young girls when they were coming up, that we were then either either punished or medicated without understanding that sometimes it just takes a little bit more time and understanding and acceptance came up in environments where the reason that we want to recruit more men into the classroom Also partially because that a lot of the kids who are inside those classrooms are kids who are coming from single parent, oftentimes women only dominated homes. And so some of the first examples and role models that a lot of these young boys are going to have of how a man acts, talks, walks, et cetera, could be that teacher inside that classroom. And so these are the type of things that I think we just have to have a measure of honesty about that introducing and celebrating this idea of masculinity or whatever we don't call it, it's not a bad thing. But I do think we have to be honest about the problem in the first place and actually have a real sincerity about ways we're going to address it and not a motivation of what can we do to increase voter rolls.
- [39:26]
Tim Miller
All right, last thing on this, some of the listeners of this show will be our. Particularly if you're like me, if you're white, you didn't know a lot of black folks, you're liberal, you fucking hate Donald Trump. You look at Donald Trump, you're like, this is a racist bastard. Like, I don't know, man, this guy's out here saying, oh, you got to say to black, you know, people want to feel seen. How did Donald Trump make them feel seen? Right. And if you just look at the numbers that David Shore did analysis this week, 18, 19, 20, 21 year old black men, according to his data analysis, went for Trump. Yeah, narrowly. Even if that's wrong, even if it was 60, 40 for Kamala, like that is just a drastic change. And like these young guys then decided to something about Trump appealed to them and what was it? Was it. How do you explain that?
- [40:11]
Wes Moore
I would say it's because Trump spoke to the frustration. Well, Trump spoke to the anger. You know, when Trump talked about how the system doesn't work and the system is broken and you know, and now for Trump, everything is personalized. So he's like, the system persecuted me. Right? So for Trump, everything is always personal. But, but Trump does a masterful job of speaking to the frustration and speaking to the fact that, you know what, you don't think this society works, do you? Neither do I. You think these people look down on you. Right? They look down on me too. You think that, that you can work and do all this kind of stuff and this person is going to get the job offered before you? Right. You think that this person, that their child is going to get into college before your child. Right. This person is going to take the spot on your daughter's sports Team, right? Yeah, so do I. So he is an amazing vessel for the frustration. There wasn't this move to Donald Trump because people believed in him. There's a move to Donald Trump because people didn't believe in the system. That's what he represented. And if we cannot be honest about this system does not work for a lot of people where they feel like they're doing everything right. We are doing our work, we are protecting our family, and we still can't get ahead. Then do not ask me to vote for the party that's protecting the status quo or who's saying I want a continuation of this, because many people did not. And that's what he mastered.
- [41:56]
Tim Miller
All right, we're gonna close with some bro talk. All right. Another group the Dems are struggling with is the bros. It's the Dem politicians. I'm having on the pod, doing a little bro trivia with them, you know, to make sure. So just in case in the future, if you need to go on Joe Rogan or Barstool or one of these, you're prepared. All right? You're a football man. I saw you doing Maryland practice with. You do the Oklahoma drill. What kind of drills were you doing?
- [42:18]
Wes Moore
I did a whole full practice with them. And actually, you know what? And here's what's wild. It was crazy. So they were like, you know, can the governor come and visit? And I think they wanted me to, like, say a couple, like, rah, rah. You know what I mean? But I was like, no, you're like, go, Terps. But I was like, nah, like, can I practice? And they're like, what do you mean? I was like, can I actually practice with the team? And we got on board, threw the gear on, and I ran a full practice with the. With the University of Maryland football team.
- [42:42]
Tim Miller
What position were you playing?
- [42:44]
Wes Moore
Well, during practice, I was playing wide receiver because I played wide receiver in college, so I played college football. And so it actually felt very comfortable. The big difference is I was actually hanging with these dudes. Like. Like, they're like, okay, like, he can actually ball. Here's the problem. The next morning, I, like, couldn't feel my legs.
- [43:01]
Tim Miller
Do you take any hits or was it a full hit? You were taking hits?
- [43:05]
Wes Moore
I was taking hits and giving them. And I'm telling. Cause I told him. I was like, you were giving hits.
- [43:09]
Tim Miller
As a wide receiver? How is that? How is that? Or just in the drills?
- [43:12]
Wes Moore
Oh, in the drills. Cause I was telling him to go, don't take it easy on me. Me. Like, if we're going to work. Let's work. And I'm very competitive and I don't like losing, especially to like, you know, to 19 and 20 year olds.
- [43:21]
Tim Miller
Were you shit talking?
- [43:22]
Wes Moore
Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah. But. But I ain't going to lie. The difference is this is they got up in the morning and they probably did another two a day. I got up in the morning and I just needed to just pound Advils all day long just to make it through.
- [43:36]
Tim Miller
We've had to see our Secretary of Health and Human Services shirtless because he goes to Barry's or he goes to whatever that fucking gym is in Venice. Not Barry's. Whatever that gym is in Gold Golds in Venice. What's your. What's your lifting routine? You think so?
- [43:49]
Wes Moore
I actually work out every morning at the Naval Academy.
- [43:52]
Tim Miller
Okay.
- [43:53]
Wes Moore
Every morning I work out with the midshipman. And it's cool or what you do?
- [43:56]
Tim Miller
Yes.
- [43:57]
Wes Moore
I mean, every day is something different. I mean, today we're. We're burning out on sleds and versa. Yesterday we were doing backs and buys. So, I mean, every day I'm out there working out with the. With the midshipmen, so they keep me honest. Man. Man, it's good.
- [44:12]
Tim Miller
You think you can take RFK on a bench? Max? Bench.
- [44:16]
Wes Moore
I ain't losing. Absolutely.
- [44:17]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Okay.
- [44:17]
Wes Moore
I ain't losing.
- [44:18]
Tim Miller
I noticed that flavored vapes are prohibited in Maryland. That might be a problem for you in the BRO outreach. What's happened with that? What if somebody just wants to have their little creme brulee vape? What do you got against that in free country?
- [44:28]
Wes Moore
Listen, I don't have an issue, and trust me, as someone who very often will take a cigar, I don't have an issue with it. I also think that we need to make sure we have ways of focusing on. On public safety on it, too. And so I really don't have an issue with it, particularly as adults go and do what adults need to do. Like, no one's going to tell me not to smoke cigars ever. You know what I mean? At the same time, though, I want to make sure that our kids are protected.
- [44:56]
Tim Miller
All right? There are some kids vaping out there, so I get that. What's your crypto familiarity? Are you doing any crypto investing you in on ETH or anything?
- [45:05]
Wes Moore
I began to, like, understand it. I say probably right in like 2018, 2019 or something like that.
- [45:12]
Tim Miller
Well, you got to get it now that president's running a crypto, Griff.
- [45:15]
Wes Moore
Yeah, but as you got to pay attention as you're watching. As you're watching, it completely fall off the cliff when it comes to value. So I think people just need to be careful.
- [45:21]
Tim Miller
So no west coin?
- [45:23]
Wes Moore
Nah, ain't no west coins. There will be no west coins. So, I mean, like, listen, for anyone who wants to get in it, whatever, like that. That's cool. It's something I've actually. I really got into because intellectually I wanted to understand it, and probably around 20, like, 18, whatever, I really started to like. Oh, this is actually kind of interesting, D. It's just. It's. It's not my thing. I like. I like things that are tangible.
- [45:41]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I hear that. All right, last thing. Have you ever been to an SEC game? Ever been to, like, a real college football game?
- [45:47]
Wes Moore
Oh. Oh, actually, I think the Big Ten is real college football.
- [45:54]
Tim Miller
Okay, whatever. You ever been to an SEC game? Not really. I've been to a Maryland game. That's not nothing. All right, that's not.
- [46:01]
Wes Moore
We're coming up.
- [46:02]
Tim Miller
You ever been to Tiger Stadium? You ever been to Athens? No. You've been to Knoxville?
- [46:08]
Wes Moore
I actually have. I actually have on my. On my bucket list, I have on my bucket list that there are a couple places that I really got Tiger Stadium, and that's definitely one of them, actually. Michigan's another one. That's another bucket list for me and Ohio State. Like, I'd love to see Michigan. Ohio State. That's another bucket list game. But. Yeah, but. No, but Big Ten. Big Ten is actually some of the best football you're going to find.
- [46:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I guess it's a little different. I don't know. I've never been to the big house. I went to an Iowa game kind of thinking it was going to be a big deal when I was working in Iowa, and there's just nothing like Tiger Stadium, man. We'll get you down here. We're going to get you to Tiger Island. You can come on down, we'll do the rounds. You know, we'll get Carville out there, and I saw you do a keg stand. We'll get you doing a keg stand and show you. And show you how. How it's really done. All right? That sounds good.
- [46:52]
Wes Moore
That sounds good to me. That sounds good to me.
- [46:54]
Tim Miller
You holler at me. That's Governor Westmore. I appreciate you very much, my friend. And let's. Let's do this again soon, all right?
- [47:00]
Wes Moore
Hey, bless you, Tim. I appreciate you, man. Thank you.
- [47:02]
Tim Miller
All right, sounds good. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. See y'all then. Peace.
- [47:07]
C
Can't you hear those cavalry drums hijacking your equilibrium and the snacks in the mausoleum and the pixelated doctor's mouth calming the balls in the calumnite Breathing free of all by the candlelight Cold cats bitch slap you so polite til you thank them for the tea and sympathy I wanted to fight the logic of all sex floss Let the handcuff slip off your wrist I'll let you be my chaperone at the halfway home Full grown man but I'm not afraid to cry Lips taste like fermented wine Perfume blows from a Ginza line Running back wild like a concubine his mother never held her hand Brief encounters in Mercedes Benz wearing appetite is contact lens Bed and breakfast getaway weekends with Sports Illustrated miles I want to find the light logic of all sex laws Let the handcuffs slip off your wrist I'll let you be my chaperone at the halfway home I'm a full grown man but I'm not afraid to cry.
- [49:10]
Tim Miller
The Board podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.