The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1005 – Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones

Release Date: March 21, 2025

In the 1005th episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a compelling conversation with renowned author Michael Lewis. The discussion delves into Lewis's latest work, Who Is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service, exploring the intricate roles of government workers and debunking prevalent misconceptions about public servants. The episode seamlessly intertwines political analysis with insightful anecdotes, offering listeners a nuanced perspective on the functioning of the U.S. government.

1. Introduction to Michael Lewis and His New Book

The episode begins with Tim Miller introducing Michael Lewis, highlighting his illustrious career with bestselling titles like Moneyball, The Big Short, and The Blind Side. Lewis is celebrated not only for his engaging narrative style but also for his ability to illuminate complex subjects with clarity and depth.

Notable Quote:

Tim Miller (02:49): "He's the pride of Newman High School right around the corner from me... what's up, Michael?"

2. The Genesis of Who Is Government?

Lewis recounts the inspiration behind his new book, emphasizing his fascination with the unsung heroes within the federal workforce. Collaborating with David Shipley, former opinion editor at The Washington Post, Lewis assembled a team of talented writers from diverse backgrounds to uncover and narrate the vital yet often overlooked functions of government agencies.

Key Discussion Points:

• The selection process for writers, including novelists and performers, to bring fresh perspectives.
• The motivation stemming from his previous work, The Fifth Risk, and the unexpected quality within government sectors.
• The overarching goal to humanize government workers and showcase their indispensable contributions.

Notable Quote:

Michael Lewis (07:11): "There are places where people are doing things that like no one else is going to do, and you're just grateful they're doing them."

3. Dispelling Stereotypes About Government Workers

A significant portion of the conversation centers on challenging the stereotypical view of government employees as inefficient or corrupt. Lewis argues that such misconceptions hinder the public's appreciation of the genuine efforts and dedication of public servants.

Key Examples from the Book:

• Chris Mark and Coal Mining Safety: Lewis narrates the story of a coal miner who revolutionized safety standards, highlighting the government's pivotal role in mitigating industrial hazards.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (08:49): "It's the story of how the government's intervention with punishment, if they didn't use the technology properly, led to improved safety records."

• John Lanchester and the Consumer Price Index (CPI): Discussing the complexities of the CPI, Lewis underscores its significance in economic policymaking and the potential chaos if it were politicized.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (10:12): "If you lose the portrait of the society, you can't manage it."

4. The Impact of Political Interference on Government Efficiency

Lewis and Miller explore current political dynamics, specifically focusing on actions taken by the Trump administration that undermine the integrity and functionality of federal institutions.

Key Discussion Points:

• Probationary Workers: The administration's mass firing of probationary government employees, whom Lewis argues are often the most capable and innovative individuals.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (20:15): "These are people who are in their first year of government service... almost exactly who you don't want to fire."

• Inspector Generals: The removal of inspectors general, undermining mechanisms designed to prevent waste, fraud, and abuse within agencies.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (21:30): "They went in and they fired all the inspector generals. What that does, it's the opposite of what they're saying."

5. The Synergy Between Political Leaders and Tech Moguls

The conversation transitions to the relationship between political figures like Donald Trump and influential tech leaders such as Elon Musk. Lewis posits that both seek to erode public trust in institutions to consolidate their control and advance personal agendas.

Key Discussion Points:

• Destruction of Trust: Trump's strategy to dismantle trust in government as a tactical advantage, aligning with tech leaders' desire to control narratives and influence.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (26:49): "Donald Trump... find wherever there's trust and destroy it."

• Public-Private Partnerships: The irony of tech magnates benefiting from government support, such as Tesla's reliance on federal loans, while simultaneously advocating for the reduction of governmental roles.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (32:59): "Much of just technological growth, economic growth, springs from public-private partnerships."

6. The Financial Implications of Undermining Government Trust

Lewis underscores the potential economic ramifications of eroding trust in governmental institutions, particularly concerning financial stability and the role of government in mitigating crises.

Key Discussion Points:

• Crypto and Financial Systems: The risks associated with integrating volatile assets like cryptocurrency into the established financial framework, which relies on government-backed stability.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (39:04): "The readiness of people to hold it [crypto] is just a religion... you do not want the financial system connected up to it in any way."

• Government as a Stabilizing Force: Comparing the financial crisis interventions during the 2008 crisis to the potential destabilization if trust in government diminishes.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (40:05): "If nobody trusts the government, there's nothing else to walk in above it and stabilize the financial system."

7. Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Towards the episode's conclusion, Lewis shares personal insights about his upbringing in New Orleans, illustrating how his environment fosters the storytelling and empathetic engagement evident in his work.

Key Discussion Points:

• New Orleans Sensibility: The city's unique culture ingrains a "Yes, and" mentality essential for storytelling and developing rich narratives.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (35:44): "Yes and is in every. It's woven into the fabric of New Orleans daily existence."

• Family and Personal Philosophy: Reflecting on his father's influence, Lewis explains his selective approach to work and publishing, guided by a family motto that encourages doing only what genuinely interests him.

  Notable Quote:

  Michael Lewis (43:24): "I only do what interests me. That's how I interpreted it."

8. Segment with Sarah Vowell: The National Archives and Public Service

The episode transitions to a segment featuring historian and essayist Sarah Vowell, who discusses Pamela Wright, the National Archives' Chief Innovation Officer. Vowell highlights Wright’s dedication to digitizing records, ensuring accessibility and transparency, and combating governmental inefficiency.

Key Discussion Points:

• Digitization Efforts: Wright's initiatives to make government records accessible online, breaking geographical barriers and enhancing public engagement.

  Notable Quote:

  Sarah Vowell (44:17): "Pamela Wright... her job was to share the records of the National Archives with the American people online."

• Volunteer Programs: The creation of History Hub, a volunteer-driven platform allowing citizens to access and transcribe archival records, fostering community involvement.

  Notable Quote:

  Sarah Vowell (48:43): "She started these volunteer programs... History Hub, where anyone, anywhere can type in a question on the NARA website."

• Impact of Political Decisions: The firing of archivists like Colleen Shogun under the Trump administration exemplifies the challenges faced by dedicated public servants.

  Notable Quote:

  Sarah Vowell (52:53): "President hadn't made it into news because he kept our records in his bathroom. And NARA's job is to get those and keep them safe for us."

9. Concluding Reflections and Future Directions

The episode wraps up with lighter banter, personal anecdotes, and reflections on the importance of dedicated public servants in maintaining governmental integrity. Both Lewis and Vowell emphasize the critical need to recognize and support the often-overlooked individuals who uphold essential functions within the government.

Notable Quote:

Sarah Vowell (56:16): "The superpower I want is medical research that doesn't overthink things because I like doing stuff that actually benefits people."

Final Thoughts

Michael Lewis's Who Is Government? offers a profound exploration of the federal workforce, celebrating the tireless efforts of public servants while critiquing political maneuvers that undermine governmental efficacy. Through engaging narratives and incisive analysis, Lewis and Vowell illuminate the indispensable role of government workers, urging a reevaluation of entrenched stereotypes and fostering greater appreciation for those who serve the public good.

For listeners interested in a deeper understanding of the complexities and valor within government institutions, this episode provides both intellectual stimulation and heartfelt storytelling, underscoring the podcast's commitment to defending liberal democracy and cutting through partisan noise.

Notable Quotes Summary:

• Tim Miller: "[...] Michael Lewis, could not be more delighted to welcome today [...]"
• Michael Lewis: "You will see over and over again, people who do not conform to this really stupid, lazy idea in one's head of what a federal worker is."
• Sarah Vowell: "Pamela Wright... her job was to share the records of the National Archives with the American people online."
• Michael Lewis: "These are people who are in their first year of government service... almost exactly who you don't want to fire."
• Michael Lewis: "If you lose the portrait of the society, you can't manage it."