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- [00:00]
Tim Miller
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- [00:29]
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- [01:29]
Bill Kristol
We had a awesome sold out event in Arizona on Saturday where I interviewed Bill Kristol, which we're going to use for the Monday podcast today. We've got some plans for a bunch more events coming up later this year, hopefully bigger venues. We appreciate you all want to come out to see us. I'm very much looking forward to that, so stay tuned for that. But up next on this podcast, Bill and I spoke a lot about this Time magazine article by Philip Holzinger. He's a photojournalist actually from Nashville, but he's been on the ground in San Salvador working on a book and he got unbelievable access to these flights of Venezuelans that we've been sending to that San Salvador hellscape with no due process. And that article had broke right before we went on stage. So we start by talking about that. But since then there's one other specific case I just want to bring up and that is this gay Venezuelan barber makeup artist named Andree. Lindsay Teslowski, who we interviewed over on our YouTube if you want to check that out, is his lawyer and has been publicizing information about this man and she posted a few pictures of him and we'll put all this stuff in the link to the show notes, and I got to tell you, this one has hit me pretty hard. She wrote this when she posted the pictures. This is our client Andree, who's been disappeared by the Trump administration. Tonight, he's in a Salvadoran prison notorious for human rights violations. He is a brother and a son, a makeup artist. And like many of us, he has tattoos. If you look at these pictures, you know, who the hell knows, right? I don't know, Andre. I don't know the story. Maybe this is like a West side Story situation and he's a gay gang member. Maybe he's like Derek Farreal from the movie Blow, the hairstylist that was helping Johnny Depp bring cocaine in from Columbia. You know, anything in this world is possible, but if you look at these pictures, it seems like this man is being tortured and that he was rightfully fleeing from communism, fleeing from oppression, and coming to the country that throughout its history has been a beacon for people such as him throughout the world fleeing oppression. And the fact that we are the ones that are sending him to this hellscape without any due process is horrendous. And if he is Derek for real, then the government needs to fucking prove it. And Tom Homan was on the Sunday shows this weekend basically saying, you just gotta trust. I trust our guys. I trust our guys. If they say he's trendor Agua, he's Trendaragua, and I'm sorry, that's not good enough for me. That's not how this works in a free country. And so I don't usually ask you guys to do this because there's just so much outrage out there. For whatever reason, I think that some Democratic politicians are scared to speak out about immigration because they think it's a loser. And I think that's wrong on all counts, politically, ethically, morally. And so I know a lot of you guys live in blue states, and even if you live in red states, you can do this. I'd ask you to call your senators and ask them to publicly demand that DHS and the State Department provide documentation for their rationalization for removal of these individuals to the San Salvador hellscape. The number's 202-224-3121. It's easily Googleable. The representatives need to know that people fucking care about this, that we actually still care about America as a country that welcomes the oppressed throughout the world, that we care about human rights. I think a lot of them, because of the election of Trump for the second time, rightfully think that People don't care. We need to understand that. They need to be made to care about this. So I'd ask you to do that. Call your senators today. It will make a difference. It will matter. If they start hearing from people about this, particularly the Democratic senators, I think they will be less scared to speak out.
- [05:24]
Lindsey Teslowski
But even the Republican senators, I gotta.
- [05:26]
Bill Kristol
Tell you, the Marco Rubio. There's a great Greg Sargent article this morning. Marco Rubio has been the point person on almost all of the most noxious shit from this administration so far. And there are people in the Cuban and Venezuelan communities that can have an influence on him. And the fact that Donald Trump, in an interview, pushed this off on Marco and said when he was asked about the Alien Enemies act, he said he didn't sign it, which is very strange in itself. I think there's more reporting to be done on that. But said that this was all something over at State. So, I mean, Trump has dumped this on Marco. Marco's boss has said he's the appointment for these heinous deportations. So Marco should have to speak to it. Tom Homan should have to speak to it, saying, we just trust our guys. That's not okay. We cannot disappear people on the word of Tom Homan and Marco Rubio.
- [06:16]
Lindsey Teslowski
If there's something else you want to.
- [06:18]
Bill Kristol
Do, Lindsey works for Immigrant Defenders. You can go to immdef.org and support the work of their lawyers. The lead lawyers on the Alien Enemies act case are at the aclu, so if you want to support them, we'll put these links in the bio, but go to the ACLU's immigrants rights page and you can donate to them as well. So I hope you enjoy.
- [06:37]
Lindsey Teslowski
Me and Bill, we had some fun in Arizona.
- [06:39]
Bill Kristol
Some dark topics, as you see at the beginning, but we got some laughs as well. I hope you enjoy it. And we'll be back here tomorrow with an old friend of the pod. So we'll see you all then.
- [07:03]
Lindsey Teslowski
Hey, everybody. What's happening? Good to be back in Arizona. Been looking for Kari Lake around every corner, making sure she doesn't come after me.
- [07:17]
Sam Stein
Tim won't be able to stay at the reception because he's got a private little thing with Kari Lake afterwards.
- [07:23]
Bill Kristol
For those who listen to the Bulwark.
- [07:25]
Lindsey Teslowski
Podcast, me and Bill get together on Mondays, so we're just. We're just gonna do the Monday podcast on Saturday, if that's okay with all of you guys. So we're playing a little pretend, and I'm gonna start it right now. Here we go. Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller, live here in Phoenix, Arizona with Bill Kristol. All right, so me and Bill were talking about what to discuss and do you want to do banter first or should we just get straight into the shit?
- [07:55]
Sam Stein
I just have one question. I've been in Arizona a fair amount. My college roommate from many years ago lives up here, north of Scottsdale. If you're from the Phoenix area, do you root for or against the University of Arizona in the tournament?
- [08:08]
Lindsey Teslowski
Oh, you do for. Against.
- [08:10]
Sam Stein
So you don't. You don't hate.
- [08:11]
Lindsey Teslowski
Oh, man.
- [08:12]
Sam Stein
You don't hate Arizona the way people in other states hate the other school or whatever. That's fine. Good. Well, good luck tomorrow against Oregon. And then our oldest daughter and her husband, our son in law, went to Duke. So that'll be. I won't be with you guys on next weekend. Right.
- [08:28]
Lindsey Teslowski
I will be.
- [08:30]
Sam Stein
The rest of America will be rooting for you guys.
- [08:33]
Lindsey Teslowski
All right. We could do a little Mike Bibby talk or something, but I guess we should probably move on. I want to. We'll end with some happy talk because we're starting really dark. I don't know if anybody has seen a story from Time magazine that just came out about one hour ago. It's about the most enraging shit I've ever seen, actually. Bill, have you had a chance to take a look at it?
- [08:57]
Sam Stein
You know, I did and we've both been angry and indignant about what's the deportation of the Venezuelans to El Salvador without any due process, without any proof that their particular gang members that anything to say so of the President, I suppose, and his team of eager deportations, you know, fanatics. But even I don't know, did we expect it to be this bad? I mean, we were alarmed and indignant and also indignant that not enough other people were indignant.
- [09:25]
Bill Kristol
But anyway, I remain that indignant.
- [09:26]
Lindsey Teslowski
I'm going to read one little bit for you guys so you can understand why my blood is about to boil. The intake began with slaps. One young man sobbed when a guard pushed him to the floor. He said, I'm not a gang member. I'm gay. I'm a barber. I believed him, but maybe it's only because he didn't look like what I had expected. He wasn't a tattooed monster. Inside the intake room, a sea of trustees descended on the men with electric shavers, stripping heads of hair with haste. The guy who claimed to be a barber began to whimper, folding his hands in Prayer. As his hair fell, he was slapped. The man asked for his mother, then buried his face in chained hands and cried as he was slapped again. We're doing that shit to these people. That's us, that's the United States that is doing that. This man, I don't know anything about him. We don't, we don't know because he didn't have due process. We don't really know what the truth is. His lawyer we interviewed for on our, on our YouTube page, Sam Stein did, and she is adamant that he's not a member of, of Trendo Agua. The Adrian Carrasquillo who writes for us has written quite effectively, actually giving examples of past cases like dating back to the first Trump administration, where we misidentified people's tattoos. The most striking example he gave that I saw was of a guy that had tattooed lyrics that were actually from a pro Trump reggaeton artist. The fact that that exists is weird, but it was like one word different from what the gang slogan was. And so the guy got arrested over it. And, you know, I just like, this is the one to me that we absolutely have to speak out about and be outraged about and protest about. We cannot let this happen. There is, and Bill, I'm interested in your take on this, but there is, I think a too cute view from some in the Democratic movement, never Trumpers, pro Democratic across the board that like immigration is a loser. We can't talk about immigration. You know, Trump won a mandate on this. Like Trump, like, people support the deportations. You know, people support the wall. And I guess my view on this is I don't fucking care. I do not care. We are how many days? Where's the sign? We are 590 days away from an election like that is so far. And if we cannot get up the passion to fight for this young man who has been sent to a fucking hellscape, to this RoboCop dystopia with no due process, with no rights. If we can't be mad for him, then I think that everybody's going to be in for a rude awakening with what else is coming next in the next 590 days. So I don't know what you think about that, Bill.
- [12:19]
Sam Stein
No, I'm totally with Tim. And just two things, just one footnote. You realize these people were in detention. This is not a case. Sometimes you arrest someone, it's a ticking time bomb. Something horrible is about to happen. You can't follow every nicety of due process. Perhaps you get them off the streets first and then you worry a little day or two later, maybe a week or two later even about. Exactly. But these people were in detention. That's how they could put them on the plane. Right? They were not a threat to anyone. Most of them probably are gang members. They were detained in the United States. We have good prisons. They weren't going to escape. I mean, so what was the hurry? What was the need to go? The hurry was to avoid the court order, to avoid judicial review, to avoid problems of due process, and to establish the predicate that they could do it. And I think that's so important because it starts with them. But now we know that 500,000 plus people are about to lose their temporary protected status, and they'll be undocumented, and a few of them will have some criminal record, I suppose, or maybe they'll have the same name as someone else who has a criminal record. So I think we're on a horrible slope down. And I totally agree with Tim about the. I'm just infuriated. I had a conversation with, actually a Democratic member of Congress. A good guy and a good member, actually, someone I agree with on almost everything. It's like, bill, this isn't the Hill we should die on. If I hear that phrase again, I'm really gonna lose it. First of all, you know, someone else said at a recent conference I was at, well, you're playing into Trump's hands when you make a big issue of these immigrants. It's like, if I hear that Trump's President of the United States, what does playing into his hands mean? He'll get 0.2% increase in popularity for two weeks, as you say, 18 months out from the election. It's so insane. So I'm very annoyed that everyone is overthinking the reaction and not having a genuine human reaction to really atrocious behavior by the government of the United States. It's our government that is sending people who have had no due process done in obviously a very slipshod manner, with people's names getting confused and so forth. And some innocent people and some of the guilt, quote, guilty people haven't been, you realize, found guilty of a crime. They may be, you know, not the most savory characters in the world, but in America, usually. And maybe they should be deported if they're here without documentation. But that's very different from locking them up and sending them to this hellhole in El Salvador for a year. I mean, who knows for how long, incidentally.
- [14:38]
Lindsey Teslowski
Yeah, a few things on that. One is some of These people are legal, right? Like, if you came from Venezuela under tps, you're not actually an illegal immigrant. You're not undocumented at all. And so we're sending legal residents, legal immigrants here, people that were made legal by a TPS that was supported by the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, very passionately. He supported giving these people back a TPS back in 2019. The other thing to the playing into Trump's hands, you know, what is actually playing into Trump's hands is just conceding that all these people are gang members and that we can't fight for any of their rights. That's what's playing into Trump's hands, actually making him defend their actions is look at what happened the first time. Again, it's like people have. It's like memento, like they've lost their memory from the first term that we did fight him on immigration stuff. We did fight him stop child separation. There were victories on that. And it was not as good as it could have been. But there were people who regained their rights because of the pushback against their behavior in the first term. So that pisses me off. And here's the other thing about what they're coming for people next. So there's this guy, I don't know if you know, Mayflower American Chamath Palihapatia. He's on the all in podcast with David Ball Sacks, who's now the crypto czar. He's friends with Elon, and he's become a big Trump supporter, huge donor to Trump. He was out yesterday and we're kind of a little. Having a little Twitter fight about it, which I shouldn't be doing by the pool today. But he's out there saying, that's what.
- [16:14]
Sam Stein
You do when you come to Arizona to sit by the pool. Normal people might sit by the pool, swim.
- [16:19]
Lindsey Teslowski
But Tim's I'm shit. I'm shit posting.
- [16:21]
Sam Stein
Don't distract me with that pool. I might make a Twitter fight.
- [16:24]
Lindsey Teslowski
I'm shitposting in my space this afternoon. But this guy. And again, it's not just a random. It's worth saying this is not just a random podcaster. It's somebody that speaks to Elon, the co president, speaks to David Sachs, who is in the White House, I assume, speaks to Trump. And he's saying that the Tesla vandals or whatever, even if they are legal Americans, even if they're American citizens, should be denaturalized and sent to El Salvador. And that's where this is going.
- [16:57]
Sam Stein
And Trump Said, remember a week ago, he had this goofy tweet, you know, the Tesla vandals, that's domestic terrorism. And everyone dismissed that as, that's Trump being Trump. And he's using the phrase he doesn't really understand what he's doing. And then it turns out, guess what? Pam Bondi is thinking about charging them, trying to increase their vandalism crime or whatever, you know, and destruction of property crime to a case of domestic terrorism. So all these things that are dismissed as Trump being Trump and don't make a mountain out of a molehill and you're playing into his hands when you get too upset about something, he says, it turns out in the second term, this wasn't true in the first term, where there were genuine guardrails within the administration and to some degree, outside as well. Even in Republicans in Congress now, there are no guardrails. And so you need to take what he says seriously, because so far, the evidence is everything he says they do. A week later, and things are proceeding much more quickly through the stages of authoritarian takeover than even we expected.
- [17:48]
Lindsey Teslowski
And they have real. And this is happening inside the FBI, inside the Department of Justice. They're, like, using resources for people that, you know, were, you know, whatever they were doing before, looking after drug smugglers or rapists or whatever other you know, types of people the FBI was looking at. Instead, they're moving those resources to. To focusing on the Tesla vandals. So, by the way, I don't support Tesla vandalism, But again, I like. Once we start, I don't.
- [18:15]
Sam Stein
I didn't do that. I'm gonna be. Oh, my God. I'm not gonna be. I'm gonna be hauled out of here in about 20 minutes. You know, domestic terrorism, you know. Right.
- [18:24]
Lindsey Teslowski
Bill's going to support the record.
- [18:26]
Sam Stein
I don't support it. All right.
- [18:29]
Bill Kristol
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- [20:43]
Lindsey Teslowski
All right, I want to move on to what is going on in our negotiations with Russia.
- [20:49]
Sam Stein
I want to get one cherry topic after another up here.
- [20:52]
Lindsey Teslowski
Yeah, things are going great over there. I really want to dial in on Steve Witkoff. You know, there's so many ridiculous characters in this administration that it's hard to keep track of all of them. And I feel like Steve's funneled under the radar. So we're going to play a Steve Witkoff related game here in a second. But before we do that, what's your biggest picture on the state of play with regards to the negotiations?
- [21:13]
Sam Stein
I mean, it's terrible. We're negotiating against Ukraine, and mostly on Putin's behalf, with an occasional fake request of Putin, which he scornfully denies. And then Trump says, okay, I guess that I'm going to go back to beating up Ukraine. I mean, it's shameful to abandon, obviously, to abandon Ukraine, I believe, to Putin and the overall reversal of U.S. foreign policy and undermining 80 years of a foreign policy that basically has kept things a lot better than they were before and a lot better than they will be after we abandon this liberal international order and our role in sustaining it is just terrible as a policy matter. But then the particularly shameful treat this thing was he was so upset with Zelenskyy in the oval office. Remember J.D. vance and Trump? Oh, he's so rude. Putin then goes out of his way to keep Trump waiting on the phone for an hour. Right. Do you realize this was. Do you read the stories about it? He's speaking at a conference, some fake business leaders conference or something, and his oligarchic friends and independents in Moscow. His Peskov, that press spokesperson, comes up and says publicly, Mr. President, you're scheduled now for the phone call with Trump. And he's. He can wait. He can wait. And he goes on for like 50 minutes, then just out of his way to just humiliate Trump. Trump's not upset by that rudeness, though. You know, Putin. What Putin does is fine.
- [22:30]
Lindsey Teslowski
Here's why he's not upset. So our chief negotiator, which is, by the way, not the Secretary of State, not the president, not. Not even the original person, Keith Kellogg, who is a military veteran who had been, you know, set to be the envoy for this. No, instead it's Steve Witkoff, a real estate guy from New York whose kids are in a crypto scam with the Trump kids. So he's our point man in Amsterdam. He was on Tucker Carlson's show, which is naturally what you do after a big interview. And usually at this point on the podcast, I would play you a clip, but we don't have that ability here. So I'm going to do a dramatic reading. Tucker, what'd you think of Putin? Wyckoff. I liked him, man. Tucker. Yep. Wyckoff. I thought he was straight up with me. First of all, I thought it was gracious of him to accept me. Tucker, it takes balls to say that.
- [23:31]
Greg Sargent
Ha ha, ha, ha, ha.
- [23:33]
Lindsey Teslowski
Witkoff. Yeah. I mean, if you don't, you know, in our country, if you don't act like a lemming and just walk off a cliff like everybody else, then, you know, you get attacked. So that's the first part I'm going to fast forward. Do you have any thoughts on that before I. Keep going.
- [23:46]
Sam Stein
You're on such a roll. I feel like Wyckoff.
- [23:49]
Lindsey Teslowski
He told me a story, Tucker, about how when the president was shot, he went to his local church and he met with his priest and he prayed for the president, not because he was the President of the United States or could become the President of the United States, but because he had a friendship with him and he was praying for his friend. I mean, can you imagine sitting there listening to these kinds of conversations? And I came home and delivered that message to our president. And I delivered a painting that was given to the president by the greatest Russian artist. And the president was clearly touched by it.
- [24:21]
Sam Stein
Yeah, well, he'll do a good job negotiating, really, with tough guy, tough minded, negotiated food. Mona Charon, who's coming up, I think right after us, wrote a book 20 years ago, 25 years ago, called Useful Idiots. About this was when Mona and I were conservatives. And this was an attack on.
- [24:38]
Lindsey Teslowski
Mona's still conservative.
- [24:39]
Sam Stein
A justified. Yeah, good point. A justified attack, though, on people who were credulous about the Soviet Union way back from the 30s and 40s who pretended the purges weren't happening and the famine and Stalin's horrible totalitarianism. And the phrase useful idiots was coined. Mona could explain. I think it was coined a while ago, and Mona used it for the title of her book. But I mean, this is such a level of useful idiocy. This is a more idiotic form of useful idiocy, but unfortunately useful.
- [25:05]
Bill Kristol
Right?
- [25:05]
Sam Stein
I mean, he'll go, quote, negotiate, and it's the media. Has that Witkoff interview with Tucker gotten much attention? I don't think so.
- [25:12]
Lindsey Teslowski
Right. It's a little. But, like, it's not.
- [25:13]
Sam Stein
Like, shouldn't that be kind of an unbelievable outrage? It's no different than pesky, a painting of Trump that Putin has given him. And it's a deeply moving moment. I mean, what do we.
- [25:23]
Lindsey Teslowski
A Russian artist. It's like, could you imagine sitting there listening to these conversations? I'm like, no, I couldn't imagine sitting there. These conversations. I'd be like, what the fuck is this? Where am I? What do you mean? Putin went to church. Putin is stealing children and killing people indiscriminately. Like, like, we're supposed to be this credulous to, like, think that Putin really, like, went to his Russian Orthodox church and. And was praying deeply for Donald Trump because he cares about his soul and that Donald Trump was genuinely touched by this. Has Donald Trump been genuinely touched by anything in his life? How fucking stupid is this person? He is the point man. Okay, it goes on. Tucker. Tucker to Wyckoff. Do you think the Russians want to march across Europe? Wyckoff, 100% not. Ha ha ha.
- [26:15]
Sam Stein
Why would they want that?
- [26:16]
Lindsey Teslowski
I wouldn't want those countries. Like, why would they. Wyckoff, first of all, why would they want to absorb Ukraine? They don't want to. What.
- [26:26]
Sam Stein
They did.
- [26:27]
Lindsey Teslowski
They did try. They tried. And then Wyckoff goes on to talk about how the big sticking point is these five territories, but he can't remember their names. He's a point person that they want, and he's like, those Russian territories are the only ones that they want. And it's like they're bombing Kyiv. They're bombing Kyiv right now. They bombed Kyiv last night. Does he even believe it? I think there's some evidence he believes it when we get to the next segment of the interview. But what do you make of all this?
- [26:54]
Sam Stein
I need to get to the next segment.
- [26:56]
Lindsey Teslowski
Well, here's what makes me think he believes it, because he does the same thing when it comes to our friends in Qatar. In case you're not familiar, Qatar has been sponsoring Hamas financially and also protecting the Hamas leaders that are hiding in Qatar. Well, Witkoff, because we can't find anybody else, is also the point person for the negotiations with Qatar and Hamas and Israel. And so he brings up this and says to Tucker Wyckoff and Sheikh Mohammed, the prime minister of Qatar, he's a good man. He's really Tucker. He certainly is. Wyckoff. He's a special guy. He really is. And he cares. And I spent a lot of time with him and broken bread with him. And he's just a good, decent human being who wants what's best for his people. People like where the. Weren't all. The. Weren't all our friends, the neocons, really upset about the Biden administration's, like, lack of outrage towards Hamas. And this guy is just out there sucking off the guy that's funding Hamas.
- [28:01]
Bill Kristol
And Putin.
- [28:02]
Lindsey Teslowski
He's our point man. How do you feel about this? You're Jewish. These are your people, not mine.
- [28:11]
Sam Stein
Sounds like a bit of a. I'm Jewish and Tim isn't. That's what that referred to. I am. I am not defending the. No, I mean, it's embarrassing. It's humiliating. It's embarrassing. Can you imagine if one of our allies, incidentally, looks at this? What are they? I mean, Honestly, it's a mirror. The Europeans have done pretty well, I'd say, given that Trump has behaved so horribly in the sense that they seem to be wanting to step up. I'm not sure they can because they don't have, obviously, the resources we do to help Ukraine and to resist Russia. But they know that. Yeah, they know the truth about Putin invading Ukraine. It is. I've never. I was a Reaganite. I had a certain amount of disdain for the Europeans. They were kind of. They didn't chip in as much as they should have on defense. They didn't want. They didn't understand. They were quite. They were cynical, sort of realpolitik. They didn't want to defend democracy. I've got to say, I found myself rooting for the Europeans all the time in the last two months. And I won't say rooting I hate. I wouldn't say rooting against our country. I don't believe in that. But I mean, certainly agreeing with all these European leaders and not agreeing with Mr. Witkoff.
- [29:08]
Lindsey Teslowski
We're the French. In this situation, we've become the French.
- [29:12]
Sam Stein
Yeah. And worse, we're the Vichy French, you know, so. Right.
- [29:17]
Lindsey Teslowski
We're the Vichy French. All right.
- [29:18]
Tim Miller
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- [30:18]
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- [31:18]
Sam Stein
That was excellent. What Tim did. I know he had this imitate.
- [31:22]
Lindsey Teslowski
Thank you.
- [31:22]
Sam Stein
Tucker Carlson Surprise. Usually when we've done a couple of these panels and Tucker comes up, Tim then reminds people that I gave Tucker his first job in Washington, that he worked for the Weekly Standard. This is why I'm just doing this here. Tim was probably saving that for the end to make sure that I went off to a chorus of boos, you.
- [31:42]
Lindsey Teslowski
Know, never worked for Tucker. We're gonna get to your evolution last. Actually, we've got one more sad story first. I just kind of want to let you kick off on Paul Weiss. I had George Conway yesterday. We had a conversation, actually. I've never seen George that mad, I don't think, actually. I mean, like, he was, he had smoke coming out of his ears, he was so fired up. I think, again, it's kind of like me talking about the Republican strategists that I know, who I know know better. Like the people that you, you know, the family feuds are the most personal. And so George knows these guys uphold Weiss. For people who missed it, this, this law firm that was being targeted by Trump, you know, the head of it basically goes to the White House, grovels to Trump, says that we'll do 40 million in pro bono services for, like, Trump administration interests. So we'll see what that, like, entails. Boy, I mean, it's a pretty astonishing capitulation. So I don't know. Do you have two minutes on that?
- [32:38]
Sam Stein
I have, yeah. One minute on that. I mean, so Covington and burling, the Washington, D.C. firm, that was the first one Trump targeted because one of their partners was offering pro bono defense work to Jack Smith, who did his job as a Justice Department employee. He's a career employee. He doesn't have a huge amount of money that I know of. And so they offered to defend him pro bono if the government came after him, which surely it is. And so Trump went after Covington, stripped security clearances, tried to really ruin their business. You can't enter you can't. Federal government isn't going to work with you, deal with you. Obviously, if you're a business and you hire a law firm, you might have business with the federal government, just routine business, not even Trump related business. And you need to deal with various agencies, with someone from epa, if you have an environmental issue, with someone from Commerce in a above board way, I mean just with legal representation and to really can cripple a law firm's business. What Trump is doing, and even if they can't legally do quite what he says, the notion that businesses get that, well, this firm is blackballed by Trump and, and with Bondi and everyone else going along and all the cabinet secretaries being so servile, you know, you'd worry even about hiring Covington, even if legally they can go meet with people because there'll be a huge, you know, like Mark of Cain on your forehead if you've hired Covington. Covington can resist this. There's a second firm, Perkins Coie, which Trump has gone after. And so they got representation to fight back. They got a temporary restraining order stopping Trump from doing it because it's probably unconstitutional what he's trying to do to punish people for protected speech. And then Perkins Queue is a relatively small firm, huge amount of government work. They will be put out of business if they don't succeed in overturning with Trump. So they may get put out of business anyway because honestly, if you're running a company here, you've got issues in Washington. Do you hire Perkins Coie? I mean it's a risky thing, right? You have to be kind of courageous to then Paul Weiss, massive New York firm, wildly successful, well established, long tradition of pro bono work. They boast about it on their website, actually. Civil rights work, some really admirable stuff back in the 40s, 50s, 60s actually, and even later probably. They are the ones who don't. They could fight, they could have helped and they could have helped get other people to stand together for Perkins Coie and for not letting him target law firms. And again, once it's law firms, why won't it be a lot of other entities as well? Right? And instead they capitulate. I think that the degree to which that has sent a signal to everyone to capitulate. Final point on this. I was on text chain with a bunch of lawyers and then they were outraged and horrified. But then I was like, but they're going to pay a huge price. I mean people are going to leave parties won't put up with that. Clients are Going to say, what are you doing? And I've gotten so inured partly because of the, what, nine years with the Republican Party at this point, but also seeing the last two months, I said, I bet no one leaves. I bet we see no high profile resignations. I mean, Paul Weiss has Jeh Johnson, former robot Obama cabinet secretary, Loretta lynch, former Obama deputy Attorney General. As senior partners there, I haven't heard a word from them. I haven't heard a word from anyone at most of the major firms to saying, you know, and in fact, the letter that's been circulated to try to get people to sign onto the amicus brief on behalf of Perkins Coie, they can't get signatures. Very respectable letter drafted by former solicitor general. And the firms are saying, we don't really want you, a senior partner on this. Do it if you know, it's a free country, you could sign it, but it might hurt our business. The other partners are concerned. I bet they don't pay. Here's the really sad thing, they will pay no price. They will make more money next year because clients will come to them thinking, well, they can deal with the Trump people and I'm going to abandon some firm that has some people representing pro bono immigrants and so forth. Right. And so the degree to which these, the authoritarianism is going beyond authoritarianism within the government to authoritarianism in society as a whole and institutions that deal with the government, universities, law firms, and then, you know, this is the really pernicious thing that's happening. And I do think that it's a law firm. We shouldn't exaggerate it. It's one incident. But I think it could be when historians write this sad story of the first two, three, four, five months. I hope it's only that much of the Trump administration, but the real decline into, and the attempt to really impose authoritarianism not just within the government but on the society. This will be a big moment. This will be a big moment.
- [36:55]
Lindsey Teslowski
Yeah.
- [36:56]
Tim Miller
You know, when the world gets a little crazy and everything is moving too fast, don't you just wish you could get away from all of it for a while? Well, that's exactly what the all new 2025 Nissan Murano can do for you. And to be clear, you don't even have to go anywhere. The Murano is the getaway. It was designed from the ground up to be a refuge from the daily grind. I mean, it has a Bose premium sound system which can play your favorite, most relaxing music. There's nothing like a world class audio system to just transport you to a better headspace. And then there's the Murano's massaging leather appointed seats. Massaging seats. Talk about melting away your stress. So could getting stuck in traffic become your happy place? I don't know. It sounds like it could in the all new Murano. You should probably check one out for yourself. You gotta drive the all new 2025 Nissan Murano today. Bose and massaging leather appointed seats are optional features.
- [37:58]
Lindsey Teslowski
I think it relates also to our point in the first topic too, which is like, courage is contagious and this is why it's worth fighting Trump on every ground right now. Not picking spots. Because if they have failures in certain areas, then that could give people in other areas the backbone to be like, wait a minute, I don't need to be scared of these guys. I don't need to do that. You know?
- [38:19]
Sam Stein
So anyway, the judges have been pretty good so far. And some of the pro bono, some of the public interest law firms, the ACLU again, 20 years ago, an organization I would have been arguing with all the time. Fantastic representation in the El Salvador case. And Judge Bostad has really been courageous and hardworking and impressive. It would be nice if more people spoke out and praised him. Right. I mean, I don't see a lot. Yeah, former judges, former Republican attorneys general. Former. I mean, my Roberts kind of did. Roberts kind of did. No, I mean, it shows how far Trump has gone that Roberts felt he had to put out the statement. He did. But anyway.
- [38:57]
Lindsey Teslowski
Yeah. All right, here we go. I got this text yesterday from a friend. Imagine showing this to Bill Kristol in 2003. And then there was a tweet I saw that said, how do you even begin to explain this to someone in 2004? The same tweet that these guys are both talking about, it's from this thing called Pop Bass. They wrote Bernie Sanders and AOC's fighting oligarchy rally in Denver on Friday night had over 34,000 people attending the quote tweet from Pop Base. It's interesting that Bill Kristol follows Pop Base, says Bill Kristol with three clapping hands emojis. So Bill, what would 2003 Bill say about that? They probably think you're being sarcastic. 2003 Bill, what do you think 2003 Bill would think about that tweet?
- [39:48]
Sam Stein
I think he'd be impressed that I had was open minded enough to have one. And you know what I mean? I may have been wrong about some things back then. I suppose I probably was. But I thought we were fighting for democracy. I do think what everyone thinks of Bush and some of the, obviously the torture and rendition stuff is very bad. But on the whole Bush, the Bush administration respected actually court decisions and civil rights and didn't think we should deport Muslims because they were Muslims.
- [40:12]
Bill Kristol
Right.
- [40:12]
Sam Stein
If they were here in America and so forth, and gave a speech, what, 10 days after 9, 11, saying that we can't be at war with a religion and so forth. So I feel like there's some consistency there. But, yeah, I think I. Didn't AOC and Bernie have a rally right, in Tucson this afternoon. Were some of you there? Did you come from that? Look at this. Who would have thought that, right? You should ask Sarah. What would you have thought in 2003, Tim, about that? What about 2003, Tim? He wouldn't have expected that people would come from the AOC Bernie Sanders rally to see me, to see us.
- [40:43]
Bill Kristol
Well, I wouldn't have known.
- [40:43]
Lindsey Teslowski
Me and AOC were both smoking pot back then, like hitting the bong then. We would have been in college. But, yeah, it is a strange thing. What do you just kind of, just briefly make of the energy around them? Do you think it's ideological? Do you think it's just that they're out there channeling the rage that people have? A little bit of both.
- [41:03]
Sam Stein
I mean, I'd say both. I mean, but I don't think it's that. If you listen. I listened to actually one of Bernie's speeches at one of the earlier rallies. It's not particularly left wing. I mean, it's just attacking Trump in exactly the same way we would. I mean, if he gets into his health care plan, it's more, you know, big government than we. I would like, but. But that's not what he's talking about. To his credit, I would say this compared to some of the moderates who are. We can't run, we can't die on that hill. We have polling from four months ago that show that actually people are in favor of deporting people to Elsa. I mean, whatever. They have some bad polling or some stuff that might have been true four months ago, but isn't necessarily true two months into the Trump administration. Anyway, AOC and Bernie are more used to sort of ignoring the pollsters and fighting. And so I think that's a big advantage they have and fighting. And they hate the oligarchs and the plutocrats and they're right to. In this instance, they might not have been always right about that. We have to be as against wealth as they are, but in this case they are. Right. The other thing someone made a good point to me about, I was saying, why are the most effective people like the ACLU and double ACP Legal Defense Fund and these people, as opposed to the mainstream legal types? And my friend made a very good point. He said, look, they're used to fighting the government. They don't have most of us, including us liberals, not just conservatives. This is bipartisan, sort of respect the government. We mostly kind of think the government's probably doing things with good intentions. We might disagree with the policy, but I didn't think the Obama administration was trying to destroy America. I thought some of the policy initiatives were bad. There were some legal interpretations I could have quibbled with. Their judicial appointments were a little different from Bush's or from others. But I mean, one's used to sort of giving the government the benefit of the doubt. If you're a mainstream liberal or a mainstream conservative, that's what you do in a healthy society, right? We have a democracy. It's our government. We hope it works out. We're not always thrilled with every policy. They are, in a way more suspicious. If you spent 50 years representing blacks in the south, if you were the ACLU and you represented really unpopular causes at different times, you're used to the government being not just ill advised, but somewhat malevolent and sometimes lying about what they're doing and sometimes going outside the law to do what they do. And so in a weird way, not a weird way, but I think the left actually at this moment has a little more grasp of the situation than some of our moderate friends.
- [43:16]
Tim Miller
You know what it's like. You're driving around all over town and your schedule is packed all day long. That's when your me time becomes even more important. Well, what if your me time and your driving around time were the same in the all new 2025 Nissan Murano? They can be. I mean, the Murano was literally designed to help you relax. We're talking about ambient mood lighting in over 64 different colors and a Bose premium sound system playing your favorite music. So you can just dial up the music and lighting to set whatever vibe you want. And just like that, you've created your own personal oasis. And you're still getting everything done that your crazy day dictates. I mean, it's not often that productivity and relaxation intersect, but they certainly do in the all new Murano. Because no amount of rushing around is going to get you down when you're chilling in a Murano. Check it out for yourself. Drive the all new 2025 Nissan Murano today. Ambient lighting and Bose are optional features.
- [44:17]
Lindsey Teslowski
I think that there is more anger at the system, right? And it's anger at the Trump administration, but anger at the failures of the system that I think some in the, in us like the bulwark, but center left folks too, Democrats have missed a little bit. And I thought it was interesting, like the connecting line. I interviewed Wes Moore, you know, on the pod this week. He's great if you haven't listened to it. I really like Wes, but you know, and his ideologically is very different from AOC. And who knows, in 2028 maybe, you know, they'll be bitterly fighting each other about whatever this or that'll be a good ticket.
- [44:51]
Sam Stein
After they fight in the primaries, they'll have to decide which one is on the top of the ticket and which one's number two. So that'll be a bit of an issue.
- [44:58]
Lindsey Teslowski
But the interesting thing is that they both are channeling this. People are upset like the system is not serving them. People are upset at the Trump administration for sure, but they're upset at the other ways that people have been failed. And we need to speak to that. And that Democrats in the kind of Hillary through Kamala, through Biden era weren't as, maybe as sharp at that as was called for. It was interesting, I think that two people that are doing very well right now politically but who are of different sides of the party are both channeling that same, you know, kind of contrary fighting tone.
- [45:36]
Sam Stein
And I was struck that moderate Democrats tend to be somewhat more, somewhat more contact with them than with AOC and some. And Bernie Sanders, though I am fine with them too. The moderate Democrats were as angry about the Chuck Schumer interview, not so much. The decision to close the government or not was I think a tough tactical decision to, to be fair. But then he did the, then he had the book tour which he did cancel. But that's like, that's really good timing when Trump's destroying America to go off on a week long book tour and all this. But then that interview he did with the New York Times, maybe you saw that and that's where he's going. You know, it's gonna work out. Trump's numbers are gonna go down. And I work out these Republicans, they're a little intimidated by Trump now, but I work out with them in the Senate gym. First of all, that's like something you can't unsee, right? So that's a problem. And secondly, and they're going to be okay. And you really feel like he is not living in 2025America. And I'd say the moderates I talked to were as indignant and as outraged and really see that there needs to be a change in leadership.
- [46:37]
Lindsey Teslowski
Yeah. And AOC and Connor Lamb were joint dunking on John Fetterman together. So, you know, the world is healing on the left. All right, everybody.
- [46:45]
Sam Stein
Thank you. Yeah.
- [46:47]
Lindsey Teslowski
Give it up for Bill Crystal.
- [47:03]
Greg Sargent
It doesn't matter what you did? If you did like you've been told? True and everlasting? That's what you want? True, true and everlasting? Like what you want don't say no? Your breakfast is the left for your borderline withdrawn down and l from the bottom There's a misfit better.
- [48:04]
Tim Miller
Okay. So we all need to get away from the world sometimes. Well, in the all new 2025 Nissan Murano, you don't even have to go anywhere. The Murano is the getaway. Just picture it. The Bose premium sound system plays your favorite music as the Murano's massaging leather appointed seats melt away your stress. Yeah, that's a real getaway. Drive the all new 2025 Nissan Murano today. Bose and massaging leather appointed seats are optional features.