The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1007 Summary

Episode Title: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?

Release Date: March 25, 2025

Hosts: Tim Miller, Jeffrey Goldberg, and Pete Wehner

Introduction

In this landmark episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in in-depth conversations with two prominent figures: Jeffrey Goldberg, Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic, and Pete Wehner, a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum and contributing writer for The New York Times and The Atlantic. The discussions delve into pressing national security issues, the tumultuous state of American politics, and the ramifications of recent security breaches.

Interview with Jeffrey Goldberg: Accidental Sharing of War Plans on Signal

[01:31] Tim Miller:
Tim kicks off the conversation by addressing a significant incident reported by Jeffrey Goldberg, where the Trump administration inadvertently included him in a Signal chat containing sensitive national security information.

[01:52] Jeffrey Goldberg:
Goldberg recounts receiving an unexpected invite to join a Signal group chat initiated by Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor. At the time, Goldberg was in Salzburg, Austria, celebrating the 60th anniversary of The Sound of Music. "I assume that things that come over the transom are fake, but there's no harm in saying to Mike Waltz, yeah, sure," Goldberg explains (02:12).

[03:21] Tim Miller:
Tim probes into how Goldberg processed the situation, especially when he realized the sensitivity of the information being shared.

[05:04] Jeffrey Goldberg:
Goldberg emphasizes the improbability of such a mistake, highlighting discussions within the chat about attacking Yemen and expressing disdain for European allies. "It's like the thought is, if this is real, why the hell do I have this?" he remarks (05:04). This leads him to conclude that the invitation was a deliberate attempt at disinformation.

White House Response and Classification Debate

[08:13] Tim Miller:
Tim presents the White House's rebuttal, where the Press Secretary denies any sharing of classified material or war plans. "The White House Counsel's office has provided guidance on a number of different platforms Trump's top officials can communicate on as safely and efficiently as possible," Tim states (08:13).

[08:39] Jeffrey Goldberg:
Goldberg counters by detailing the nature of the messages, which included timelines for attacks, specific weapon systems, and targeted individuals. "Who they are trying to kill in the next two hours," he asserts (08:58). He argues that such information unequivocally constitutes a war plan.

[10:21] Tim Miller:
Addressing the legal implications, Tim references Tulsi Gabbard's recent statement that unauthorized release of classified information is a legal violation.

[10:38] Jeffrey Goldberg:
Goldberg maintains his stance, refusing to publish the sensitive material publicly but expressing a commitment to responsibly vetting the information (10:41).

Interview with Pete Wehner: Trump's Appetite for Revenge

[16:45] Tim Miller:
Transitioning to the second half of the episode, Tim introduces Pete Wehner, who shares his reaction to Goldberg's revelations about national security breaches.

[19:20] Pete Wehner:
Wehner describes the incident as "stunning but not shocking," attributing it to the Trump administration's characteristic incompetence and maliciousness (19:20). He underscores the severity of the breach, noting the potential for significant national security damage and the involvement of high-ranking officials.

[20:30] Tim Miller:
Tim explores Wehner's background in the Reagan, Bush, and Bush administrations, probing into the usual protocols for handling classified information.

[20:56] Pete Wehner:
Wehner contrasts the stringent security measures of previous administrations with the lax practices observed under Trump. "The ethos of this administration... is kind of nihilistic and they don't really care," he asserts (20:56).

Discussion on USAID and PEPFAR Cuts

[49:35] Pete Wehner:
Shifting focus, Wehner expresses deep concern over the Trump administration's gutting of USAID. He highlights the program's critical role in combating malnutrition, diseases, and starvation worldwide. "It's as if there is no human sympathy, not an ounce of it," he laments (51:00).

[52:10] Tim Miller:
Tim brings up PEPFAR, the Global AIDS Initiative, noting its bipartisan support and life-saving impact.

[52:31] Pete Wehner:
Wehner explains that efforts to dismantle PEPFAR mirror the attacks on USAID, emphasizing its unparalleled success. "PEPFAR was the Global AIDS Initiative... It saved somewhere between 25 and 30 million people on the African continent from AIDS," he states (52:31). He condemns the administration's actions as "destruction for destruction's sake."

Dehumanization of Immigrants

[55:24] Tim Miller:
Tim addresses the administration's aggressive immigration policies, referencing the dissemination of videos depicting the harsh treatment of immigrants.

[56:22] Pete Wehner:
Wehner discusses the systemic dehumanization of immigrants, attributing it to a "MAGA ethic" and "hyper faux masculinity." He connects these attitudes to long-standing resentment and a sense of disrespect among supporters. "It's the joy and the delight and the thrill that people seem to get out of this," he observes (56:22).

Potential Democratic Outreach to Christian Communities

[59:16] Tim Miller:
Tim inquires about the Democrats' ability to reconnect with Christian communities that have been alienated by Trump's rhetoric and policies.

[60:17] Pete Wehner:
Wehner remains cautiously optimistic, suggesting that Democrats might regain trust as the consequences of Trump's presidency become more evident. He recommends embracing models from past Democratic successes, such as Bill Clinton's era or Tony Blair's Leadership in the UK, to rebuild connections. "The Democratic Party is in a bad place, obviously... It needs to reform itself," he advises (60:17).

Final Thoughts and Conclusion

[67:00] Pete Wehner:
In a poignant moment, Wehner shares insights from a conversation with Nicholas Waldersdorf, a Yale professor who wrote Lament for a Son. He discusses the importance of redeeming grief and finding solidarity in shared pain, emphasizing resilience and faith (67:00).

[66:38] Tim Miller:
Tim wraps up the episode by acknowledging the heavy topics covered and expressing gratitude to his guests. "We soldier on. We'll try to redeem it," he affirms (64:38).

Key Takeaways

• Security Breaches: The accidental inclusion of Jeffrey Goldberg in a sensitive Signal chat underscores the Trump administration's alarming disregard for national security protocols.

• Administration's Response: The White House vehemently denies any wrongdoing, but discrepancies between their statements and the evidence presented by Goldberg raise serious concerns.

• Revenge and Power: Pete Wehner highlights Trump's relentless pursuit of vengeance against perceived foes, noting its detrimental impact on national institutions and democratic norms.

• Humanitarian Impact: Cuts to USAID and PEPFAR threaten millions of lives globally, reflecting a troubling indifference to humanitarian crises.

• Dehumanization: Aggressive immigration policies and rhetoric have fostered a culture of dehumanization, fueled by resentment and a misguided sense of strength.

• Political Realignment: There is a potential, albeit challenging, pathway for Democrats to reconnect with disillusioned Christian communities by addressing underlying grievances and restoring trust.

Notable Quotes

• Jeffrey Goldberg (05:04):
  "This is a state actor or a non-state actor trying to... It's obviously more subtle than this is ups."

• Pete Wehner (20:56):
  "The ethos of this administration... is kind of nihilistic and they don't really care."

• Pete Wehner (52:31):
  "PEPFAR saved somewhere between 25 and 30 million people on the African continent from AIDS."

• Pete Wehner (56:22):
  "It's the joy and the delight and the thrill that people seem to get out of this."

• Pete Wehner (60:17):
  "The Democratic Party is in a bad place... It needs to reform itself."

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the critical discussions from The Bulwark Podcast episode, providing listeners with insightful analysis into the current state of national security, political integrity, and the broader implications for American democracy.