The Bulwark Podcast Episode: S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious Release Date: April 1, 2025

Introduction and Programming Notes

In the opening segment of this episode, host Tim Miller provides updates and personal reflections on recent events and podcast programming. He introduces the major topic of the day: the wrongful deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a father fleeing gangs in El Salvador, to a notorious Salvadoran prison. Tim expresses his frustration with the administration's handling of the situation and emphasizes the importance of authentic outrage over political gain.

Tim Miller [00:00]: "My mother always said we went on vacation to a new city. She's like, you don't want to see all the sites on your first trip... I left myself wanting a little more. With Susan Rice... she is just really, really good..."

Case Study: Kilmar Abrego Garcia

Tim delves into the alarming case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a 16-year-old Venezuelan man with a severely disabled five-year-old child. Garcia was mistakenly deported to El Salvador's harsh prison system, where he cannot access legal representation or communicate with his family. The administration initially categorized him incorrectly, lumping him with Venezuelan criminals, a claim later retracted in court filings.

Tim Miller [02:43]: "We lumped him in with the Venezuelans and claimed he was Trenda Aragua and sent him back to El Salvador to this gulag. And the story is awful."

Tim highlights the systemic failures, including the administration's admission of the mistake and their subsequent inaction to rectify the situation. He shares his own emotional response, including a "rage take" available on YouTube and the Bulwark Takes podcast feedback.

Public Opinion and Polls on Deportations

Tim references a significant poll revealing widespread American opposition to deportations of Venezuelan migrants without proper hearings. According to an Economist YouGov poll, 47% of Americans oppose these deportations compared to 35% in support. Notably, only 32% of Republicans believe the deported Venezuelans are gang members, contradicting the administration's claims.

Tim Miller [09:00]: "Americans oppose the deportations of Venezuelan migrants without hearings by double digits, 47% to 35%, according to an Economist YouGov poll."

This data underscores the public's skepticism about the administration's justification for these deportations and highlights a disconnect between governmental actions and citizen sentiments.

Susan Rice Interview: US Foreign Policy Failures

The core of the episode features an in-depth interview with Susan Rice, former National Security Advisor and Ambassador to the United Nations during the Obama administration. Susan articulates numerous concerns regarding the current administration's approach to foreign and domestic policy.

Susan Rice [15:54]: "Great to be with you, Tim. Much, much to discuss."

Susan outlines multiple alarming trends:

1. Dismantling of Federal Programs: The reduction of essential services like Meals on Wheels, veteran services, and healthcare adversely affects millions of Americans.
2. Intimidation of Democratic Institutions: Efforts to undermine the media, law firms, universities, and other democratic institutions pose a direct threat to American democracy.
3. Abandonment of Western Allies: Shifting alliances, especially towards authoritarian regimes like Russia under Putin, jeopardize long-standing partnerships with NATO allies, Canada, and Asian nations.
4. Economic Policy Missteps: Implementing tariffs and engaging in trade wars with traditional allies damages both the US economy and international relations.

Susan Rice [16:21]: "I am profoundly alarmed by the dismantling of the federal government and of vital programs... a wholesale effort to kill America's democracy and sacrifice our global leadership."

Susan emphasizes that these policies are not only short-sighted but also counterproductive to the nation's security and global standing. She draws parallels to historical scandals like Abu Ghraib to illustrate the severity of current governmental missteps.

Signalgate and National Security Concerns

A significant portion of the conversation centers around "Signalgate," a scandal involving the misuse of the encrypted messaging app Signal by high-ranking officials, including Secretary of Defense Michael Walz and Vice President JD Vance. These officials engaged in sensitive national security discussions over an unsecured platform, risking exposure to adversaries.

Susan Rice [20:08]: "The deliberation itself is classified... This is not how things work in a free country."

Susan criticizes the lack of secure communication channels, highlighting the potential risks to US military personnel and national security. She underscores the irresponsibility of officials who are expected to uphold stringent security protocols but fail to do so.

Susan Rice [22:12]: "It's insane. And now that they have done that, they seem to claim that there's no reason for concern or remorse."

The discussion reveals a pattern of negligence and recklessness among national security leaders, undermining the effectiveness and reliability of US defense strategies.

Impact on US-Europe Relations

Susan addresses the deteriorating relationship between the United States and its European allies. She points out that the current administration's policies are causing widespread distrust and fear among European nations, leading them to reconsider their reliance on the US for security and economic partnerships.

Susan Rice [35:16]: "There is no question that the Europeans and others have to look at this in their own interests and recognize that as Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada said, we're not in the same relationship that we used to be."

Susan warns that repairing these damaged alliances will be exceedingly difficult, jeopardizing collective security efforts and global stability.

Mother Jones Segment: Family Stories of Deported Venezuelans

Following the interview with Susan Rice, the podcast features a bonus segment with Noah Lenard and Isabella Diaz from Mother Jones. They discuss their investigative work on Venezuelans deported to El Salvador, sharing harrowing accounts from family members.

Key Stories Covered:

1. Neri Alvarado: A man with autism was sent to El Salvador despite having a legitimate asylum claim. His tattoo, representing autism awareness and familial bonds, was the sole reason for his detention.

   Noah Lenard [46:52]: "A lot of them with most of them without any relevant as a signifier of any type of criminal activity or tied to gang affiliation."

2. Arturo Trejo: A singer and father, Trejo was deported based solely on an innocuous tattoo symbolizing harmony. He had no criminal record and was slated to support his pregnant wife and newborn child in the US.

   Susan Rice [53:15]: "He had a tattoo of a hummingbird on his neck, which she told me it's supposed to represent harmony and good vibes, very innocuous."

3. Fritzald Jarov: An entrepreneur who faced deportation despite having a strong community presence and legitimate business aspirations in the US. His tattoos were irrelevant to any gang affiliation.

Noah Lenard [53:47]: "There are plenty of experts out there that can tell you that tattoos are not really, you know, a trustworthy kind of signifier of Tranda Aragua membership."

The segment highlights systemic issues within US immigration enforcement, where minor physical attributes like tattoos result in severe consequences without due process.

Legal and Policy Implications

Noah and Isabella discuss the legal ramifications of these deportations, noting that many individuals were sent to El Salvador without proper hearings or the opportunity to present their cases in US courts. The reliance on superficial criteria, such as tattoos, violates fundamental principles of justice and due process.

Noah Lenard [60:52]: "The administration themselves, they've admitted in court filings that many of these Venezuelans have no criminal history."

Susan reinforces the critical need for due process, emphasizing that deportations should occur only after thorough legal proceedings where individuals can defend themselves against any accusations.

Susan Rice [62:00]: "This is why we have due process in this country. We shouldn't be having this conversation now, us as journalists saying, hey, these people who are disappeared into El Salvador, to the best of our knowledge, are completely innocent of the allegations."

Concluding Remarks

As the episode draws to a close, Tim Miller urges listeners to take action by contacting their senators and voicing their opposition to the unjust deportation policies. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining vigilance against governmental overreach and protecting the rights of vulnerable populations.

Tim Miller [63:04]: "Call your senators, get mad about what is happening and what we're doing to people who absolutely do not deserve it and deserve due process."

Susan Rice echoes the urgency of addressing these systemic failures, calling for renewed commitment to democratic principles and international alliances to safeguard both American interests and global stability.

Susan Rice [63:05]: "All right, thanks for having us on, Tim."

The episode underscores the dire consequences of flawed immigration policies, the erosion of democratic institutions, and the critical need for secure and responsible governance in both domestic and foreign affairs.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller [00:00]: "My mother always said we went on vacation to a new city... With Susan Rice... she is just really, really good..."

• Susan Rice [16:21]: "I am profoundly alarmed by the dismantling of the federal government and of vital programs... a wholesale effort to kill America's democracy and sacrifice our global leadership."

• Tim Miller [09:00]: "Americans oppose the deportations of Venezuelan migrants without hearings by double digits, 47% to 35%..."

• Susan Rice [20:08]: "The deliberation itself is classified... This is not how things work in a free country."

• Noah Lenard [53:47]: "There are plenty of experts out there that can tell you that tattoos are not really... a trustworthy kind of signifier of Tranda Aragua membership."

• Susan Rice [62:00]: "This is why we have due process in this country... are completely innocent of the allegations."

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the multifaceted discussions of the episode, highlighting the critical issues of immigration policy failures, national security breaches, and the broader implications for American democracy and international relations.