The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1016 - Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America

Release Date: April 8, 2025

Overview

In the two-part episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in in-depth discussions with Jonathan Cohn, the new senior national correspondent at The Bulwark, and Mark Lilla, a political philosophy and humanities professor at Columbia University. Covering critical topics ranging from the economic impact of tariffs in Michigan to the fragmentation of the liberal left through identity politics, and delving into the rise of reactionary movements, the episode offers a comprehensive analysis of contemporary political and social dynamics in America.

Part 1: Jonathan Cohn on Economic Policies and Health Affairs

Introduction to Jonathan Cohn

Tim Miller introduces Jonathan Cohn, highlighting his role in The Bulwark and his expertise in government policy. Cohn discusses his bi-weekly newsletter, The Breakdown, which unpacks the significance of government policies and their real-world implications for everyday Americans.

Jonathan Cohn [04:39]: "My whole life I always felt sort of had to apologize for… being sort of … but it's important because policy is another word for what the government does that affects people."

Impact of Tariffs on Michigan

The conversation shifts to the immediate effects of Donald Trump's tariff policies on Michigan’s robust auto industry. Cohn elaborates on how tariffs disrupt the intricate supply chains between the U.S. and Canada, leading to increased costs and operational instability for manufacturers.

Jonathan Cohn [07:24]: "The auto industry is so integrated into the economy here. The tariffs… raise the price of these cars and these trucks, even if they're assembled here in the US."

He highlights specific repercussions such as plant idling and canceled factory expansions, emphasizing the unpredictability faced by businesses unable to anticipate fluctuating tariffs.

Jonathan Cohn [09:57]: "Donald Trump would not only get elected, not only impose tariffs…but be calling for a 54% or maybe 104% tariffs."

Changes at the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)

Cohn delves into the dramatic changes occurring within HHS, focusing on budget cuts and the elimination of critical research programs.

Jonathan Cohn [15:12]: "There's so many… the gutting of future research and innovation and science. It's at all levels."

He criticizes the administration's random defunding of essential studies, ranging from Alzheimer's to osteoarthritis, questioning the rationale behind such decisions.

Jonathan Cohn [17:24]: "Why would you defund a cancer study? That makes no sense at all."

Cohn warns of the long-term consequences, such as a decline in scientific innovation and the potential loss of future medical breakthroughs.

Future Policy Battles: Medicaid Cuts and Obamacare Extensions

The discussion progresses to upcoming legislative battles over healthcare, specifically focusing on Medicaid reforms and Obamacare extensions. Cohn outlines the potential strategies Republicans might employ to offset tax cuts, including cutting Medicaid funding through funding reductions, work requirements, and combating waste and abuse.

Jonathan Cohn [25:55]: "They need to find the money… they're looking for savings… they don't like government."

He explains the political complexities, noting that Medicaid cuts are particularly sensitive in red states like Missouri, where expansions have already been approved by voters.

Jonathan Cohn [32:24]: "Medicaid Hurts a lot of red states… Josh Hawley has been quite vocal. He doesn’t want to cut Medicaid benefits."

Cohn anticipates that work requirements, while popular in polls, may ultimately prove ineffective due to administrative burdens and unintended exclusion of eligible individuals.

Jonathan Cohn [28:04]: "When you spend so much money on the administration… it eats into the savings."

Conclusion of Jonathan Cohn’s Segment

Tim Miller wraps up the conversation with Cohn, expressing appreciation for his policy insights and anticipating deeper future discussions on the looming tax and budget bills.

Tim Miller [32:05]: "Jonathan Cohn, so good. We'll go way deeper on this in the future."

Part 2: Mark Lilla on Reactionary Politics and the Liberal Left’s Identity Fragmentation

Introduction to Mark Lilla

Tim Miller introduces Mark Lilla, a renowned humanities professor at Columbia University and author of The Once and Future Liberal and Ignorance and Bliss.

Mark Lilla [33:04]: "Glad to be here."

Fragmentation of the Liberal Left through Identity Politics

Lilla discusses his critique of the Democratic Party's shift towards identity politics, arguing that this fragmentation prevents the party from presenting a unified vision of American society.

Mark Lilla [36:42]: "Democrats lack an idea that… is inclusive in the best sense. A heightened sense of citizenship… social citizenship."

He contends that without a cohesive narrative that resonates across diverse demographics, the liberal left struggles to consolidate electoral power and effect meaningful change.

Mark Lilla [38:26]: "We've never had anything like that on our side. We're just all divided by our little issues."

Rise of Reactionary Politics

The conversation transitions to the emergence of reactionary politics, distinguishing it from traditional conservatism. Lilla explains that reactionaries possess a nostalgic yearning for a past perceived as stable and virtuous, coupled with a desire to propel America into a "muscular" future inspired by that past.

Mark Lilla [44:28]: "Reactionaries… are deeply anti liberal and deeply anti conservative. They have a nostalgia for the past and want to leap into a new future."

He emphasizes that this reactionary movement is anti-liberal and anti-conservative, undermining traditional political frameworks and fostering divisiveness.

Mark Lilla [48:41]: "It’s been interesting… the toxin has entered the bloodstream."

Insights from Ignorance and Bliss

Lilla introduces his latest book, Ignorance and Bliss, which explores the human tendency to avoid unpleasant information and its implications for societal beliefs and behaviors.

Mark Lilla [53:35]: "The book is about the human desire not to know… the psychology of that is what the implications are for our beliefs about the soul and God and spirit."

Using literary and philosophical references, Lilla illustrates how this will to ignorance manifests in various aspects of life, leading to ideological rigidity and resistance to change.

Mark Lilla [55:17]: "We couldn't get through the day if we didn't… we block out certain information to cope with the human condition."

He connects this psychological phenomenon to current political trends, suggesting that the overwhelming influx of information in the digital age exacerbates the tendency to shut down, fostering echo chambers and extremism.

Mark Lilla [60:46]: "Our ability to master anything is… more self-awareness."

Practical Thoughts for Navigating Ignorance and Bliss

In response to Miller’s query about practical strategies, Lilla advises increased self-awareness and recognizing the societal shift towards willful ignorance. He underscores the importance of acknowledging uncertainty and fostering a collective pursuit of understanding to counteract reactionary impulses.

Mark Lilla [63:34]: "The first thing is to notice what is happening… more self-awareness."

Conclusion of Mark Lilla’s Segment

Tim Miller concludes the discussion by appreciating Lilla’s insights and highlighting the relevance of his work in the current political landscape.

Tim Miller [65:08]: "Mark Lilla, really appreciate you. The book is Ignorance and Bliss. Thank you for coming on to the Bulwark Podcast."

Final Thoughts and Closing

The episode concludes with Tim Miller previewing future discussions and expressing gratitude to both guests. The conversations offer a profound exploration of the challenges facing the liberal left and the surge of reactionary politics, emphasizing the need for strategic coherence and intellectual resilience in navigating contemporary American politics.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tim Miller [00:08]: "Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller."

• Jonathan Cohn [07:24]: "The auto industry is so integrated into the economy here. The tariffs… raise the price of these cars and these trucks, even if they're assembled here in the US."

• Mark Lilla [36:42]: "Democrats lack an idea that… is inclusive in the best sense. A heightened sense of citizenship… social citizenship."

• Jonathan Cohn [15:12]: "There's so many… the gutting of future research and innovation and science. It's at all levels."

• Mark Lilla [44:28]: "Reactionaries… are deeply anti liberal and deeply anti conservative. They have a nostalgia for the past and want to leap into a new future."

• Mark Lilla [53:35]: "The book is about the human desire not to know… the psychology of that is what the implications are for our beliefs about the soul and God and spirit."

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast meticulously dissects pivotal issues shaping America's political and social fabric. Jonathan Cohn provides a nuanced examination of economic policies' tangible effects on Michigan's auto industry and the precarious state of health affairs under current administration policies. Concurrently, Mark Lilla offers a scholarly perspective on the liberal left's internal fragmentation and the concerning rise of reactionary politics fueled by a societal inclination towards willful ignorance. Together, the discussions underscore the urgent need for cohesive policy-making and a reinvigorated liberal narrative to counteract divisive political currents.