The Bulwark Podcast: Season 2, Episode 1020 – “Bill Kristol: Staring Down the Barrel”

Release Date: April 14, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a profound discussion with Bill Kristol, Bulwark's Editor-at-Large, dissecting a series of pressing political crises that underscore the current state of American democracy. The conversation delves deep into U.S. foreign policy, immigration challenges, economic turmoil, and the erosion of the rule of law, all against the backdrop of a tumultuous Trump administration. Below is a detailed summary capturing the key points, insightful analyses, and notable quotes from their exchange.

1. The El Salvador Crisis and Kilmar Abrego Garcia

The episode opens with a critical examination of the U.S. government's handling of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Maryland resident wrongfully deported to El Salvador. This incident has ignited legal battles and raised concerns about international relations and human rights.

• Tim Miller (00:38): Introduces the topic, highlighting David Frum's characterization of El Salvador as the "only ally" and sets the stage for the discussion on the deportation mishandling.

• Bill Kristol (02:49): Criticizes the U.S. government's lack of effort to rectify the wrongful deportation, stating, “It’s terrible that the government of the United States... is not trying at all hard, or even appearing to try hard to fix what's happened” (02:49).

The conversation underscores the Supreme Court's unanimous decision mandating Garcia's return and President Bukele's defiance, highlighting a potential legal showdown (11:00).

2. Authoritarian Tendencies in U.S. Immigration Policy

Kristol and Miller explore how the current administration's stringent immigration policies reflect authoritarian practices, fostering fear and suppressing dissent among immigrants.

• Kristol (04:23): Describes the chilling effect of aggressive immigration tactics, noting, “This administration... is setting up a terrible system where people don’t feel they can speak up” (04:23).

• Tim Miller (05:18): Shares a listener's experience of forced self-deportation, emphasizing the rationality behind choosing to leave to avoid persecution (05:18).

The discussion extends to the implications for non-citizens and the broader erosion of civil liberties, with Kristol lamenting the departure from U.S. laws that traditionally support asylum seekers (05:18).

3. Immigration Law Enforcement and Abuse of Power

The hosts delve into specific cases illustrating the administration's overreach:

• Christine Krebs Scenario:

  Kristol (06:50): Expresses doubts about the fairness of the legal process for immigrants, questioning whether procedures are marginally legal but fundamentally unjust (06:50).

• Attack on Tufts Student:

  Tim Miller (06:05): Details a case where a student was unjustly seized without evidence of wrongdoing, critiquing the administration's arbitrary enforcement (06:05).

4. Trump's Tariff Policies and Economic Instability

The conversation shifts to the erratic tariff policies under Trump, particularly targeting China, and their detrimental effects on the U.S. economy.

• Tariff Escalation:

  Tim Miller (23:29): Describes the unpredictable tariff changes, stating, “You have tariffs increasing by 122% one day and decreasing by 80% the next” (23:29).

• Kristol's Analysis (24:20): Highlights the economic instability caused by arbitrary tariff decisions and the undermining of the rule of law, asserting, “It really mocks any notion again of the rule of law” (24:20).

• Dan Crenshaw's Critique:

  Kristol (27:15): Discusses Republican Dan Crenshaw's unexpected criticism of tariff policies, reflecting growing bipartisan concern over economic mismanagement (27:15).

5. Internal Administration Failures and Authoritarian Control

The podcast addresses the internal dysfunction within the Trump administration, including incompetent appointments and the manipulation of federal agencies.

• HHS Mismanagement:

  Kristol (30:15): Criticizes the appointment of unqualified individuals like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to key positions, noting their detrimental impact on essential services (30:15).

• Kristol on Executive Orders:

  Kristol (40:53): Discusses the misuse of executive power, highlighting the administration's collaboration with disreputable law enforcement officials to execute unjust policies (40:53).

6. Russian Aggression and U.S. Foreign Policy

An update on the Russian invasion of Ukraine reveals continued civilian casualties and the administration's inadequate response.

• Sumy Missile Attacks:

  Tim Miller (31:30): Reports on the devastating missile attacks in Sumy, condemning the lack of effective action from the U.S. and Trump's dismissive remarks (31:30).

• Kristol's Reaction (33:08): Describes the attacks as possibly the worst on civilians in the war, expressing frustration with the administration’s ineffectiveness (33:08).

7. Attack on Governor Josh Shapiro

The podcast covers the alarming incident where Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro was targeted in an arson attack, reflecting the heightened tensions and political violence.

• Attack Details:

  Tim Miller (41:35): Details the arson attack on Governor Shapiro’s mansion, questioning the motive and highlighting the broader climate of anti-violence sentiments (41:35).

• Kristol's Concerns (42:11): Links the attack to the current administration's failure to address political violence, noting the lack of presidential response (42:11).

8. Erosion of Rule of Law and Democratic Principles

The hosts lament the decline of democratic norms and the erosion of the rule of law, discussing how Trump's actions undermine foundational American principles.

• Kristol on Rule of Law:

  Kristol (25:56): Emphasizes how arbitrary decisions and personal vendettas within the administration erode trust in governmental institutions (25:56).

• Tributes to Rule of Law:

  Kristol (37:34): Reflects on Richie Torres' impactful statement summarizing the decline of American power and principles: “If a superpower were intent on engineering its own decline...” (35:18).

9. Call for Accountability and Democratic Resistance

Despite the bleak outlook, Kristol offers a sliver of hope, suggesting that some Democrats are mobilizing more aggressively against the administration's policies.

• Democratic Pushback:

  Kristol (40:53): Notes that figures like Richie Torres and other Democratic officials are taking a stronger stance, indicating a growing resistance within the party (40:53).

10. Concluding Remarks and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes on a somber note, reinforcing the gravity of the political and social crises discussed, while hinting at potential avenues for accountability and change.

• Kristol on Future Accountability:

  Kristol (20:31): Expresses hope that accountability will surface in future administrations, though acknowledging the current administration's stronghold on power (20:31).

• Closing Reflection:

  Tim Miller (37:46): Ends with a critical view of the administration's demands for blind trust in Trump, equating it to authoritarianism: “We’re supposed to trust the guy, and we are really just one step from being ordered to love the guy” (39:21).

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Kristol (02:49): “It’s terrible that the government of the United States... is not trying at all hard, or even appearing to try hard to fix what's happened.”

• Tim Miller (23:29): “You have tariffs increasing by 122% one day and decreasing by 80% the next.”

• Bill Kristol (24:20): “It really mocks any notion again of the rule of law.”

• Bill Kristol (37:34): “If a superpower were intent on engineering its own decline, it would antagonize its allies...”

• Tim Miller (39:21): “We’re supposed to trust the guy, and we are really just one step from being ordered to love the guy.”

Conclusion

In “Bill Kristol: Staring Down the Barrel,” Tim Miller and Bill Kristol provide a sobering analysis of the dire state of American politics under the Trump administration. From mishandled immigration policies and reckless economic decisions to blatant authoritarian maneuvers and international conflicts, the episode paints a comprehensive picture of systemic failures threatening liberal democracy. Kristol’s insightful critique underscores the urgent need for accountability and the preservation of democratic institutions, offering listeners a thoughtful examination of contemporary political challenges.