The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: S2 Ep1021: Josh Barro: Total Idiocy
Release Date: April 15, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Josh Barro, Congressman Chris D'Aluzio

Overview

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in an in-depth discussion with Josh Barro and later with Democratic Congressman Chris D'Aluzio. The conversation centers around the current economic climate, focusing on tariffs, the bond market, and the broader implications of the Trump administration's policies on the U.S. economy and its global standing. The episode delves into specific policies like the tariffs on tomatoes from Mexico, the challenges facing the U.S. reserve currency, and the internal dynamics within Congress concerning trade and economic strategies.

Segment 1: Tim Miller and Josh Barro Discuss Tariffs and Economic Impacts

Tariff Policies and Economic Indicators [00:58 - 06:39]

Tim Miller opens the discussion by referencing Josh Barro's New York Times op-ed, drawing parallels with Miller’s critique of Congressman Chris D'Aluzio. The conversation swiftly moves to the bond market, with Barro explaining:

"[01:27] Josh Barro: ...normally the safest thing possible is US treasury bonds and the US Dollar. ... when there's a crisis, the US Dollar will strengthen and interest rates on US Government bonds will fall."

Barro highlights the unexpected rise in interest rates on treasury bonds, indicating diminishing confidence in the U.S. economy:

"[03:37] Josh Barro: ...the interest rates on treasury bonds fell sharply, but then they rose very sharply... investors don't feel good about the United States."

Impact of Trump’s Tariff Strategy [06:39 - 14:05]

The discussion pivots to the Trump administration's tariff strategy, emphasizing its unpredictability and detrimental effects on foreign investment:

"[05:14] Josh Barro: ...they [other countries] have to bid up the price of the dollars. ... it's freezing investment in the United States."

Barro criticizes the administration for creating economic uncertainty, leading to reduced investment:

"[06:39] Josh Barro: ...other countries are looking at our policies and saying... we do not want to put in a factory that's only gonna come online..."

Global Economic Position and Reserve Currency Risks [20:18 - 21:14]

Tim Miller questions the stability of the U.S. reserve currency amidst these policies. Barro responds by assessing the risks without signaling an imminent collapse:

"[20:18] Josh Barro: ...we are not headed into a global economic depression... it's a significant warning sign."

Segment 2: Tim Miller and Josh Barro Critique Treasury and Commerce Departments

Evaluation of Treasury Secretary Scott Besant and Commerce Secretary Lutnick [25:25 - 30:45]

The conversation shifts to evaluating key administration officials. Barro expresses disappointment in Treasury Secretary Scott Besant's handling of tariffs, suggesting his policies are counterproductive:

"[25:46] Josh Barro: ...there's no good way to market this tariff policy... it's completely incapable of achieving the stated goals."

Miller and Barro discuss the administration's inconsistent approach, with Barro pointing out the broader failure to maintain credibility:

"[26:33] Josh Barro: ...we are not a Borg... [criticizing] the policy's implementation."

Harvard’s Stand Against Administration Demands [43:08 - 45:33]

Barro commends Harvard for rejecting the administration's extensive and unworkable demands, contrasting it with the approach taken towards law firms:

"[43:08] Josh Barro: ...the administration is not actually trying to get the universities to heal, but is trying to get to this fight."

Segment 3: Interview with Congressman Chris D'Aluzio

Introduction and Background [49:20 - 50:49]

Congressman Chris D'Aluzio introduces himself, highlighting his military background, legal career, and tenure representing Pennsylvania’s 17th district:

"[50:06] Chris D'Aluzio: ...born and raised in my district... deployed at sea... became a lawyer... ran for Congress in 2022."

Democratic Strategy on Tariffs [52:31 - 62:38]

D'Aluzio discusses the need for Democrats to adopt a more aggressive stance against harmful economic policies, critiquing the party's hesitancy to name specific villains:

"[56:30] Chris D'Aluzio: ...fighting against monopolies, getting whoever is in the way of us getting more affordable housing... we have to name them."

He argues for a unified Democratic message that clearly opposes Trump's chaotic tariff strategies:

"[57:45] Chris D'Aluzio: ...Democrats should say that Donald Trump is making you poor and imposing a tax on you and cutting us off from the global economic system."

Reflections on Democratic Losses and Future Directions [54:07 - 62:38]

Reflecting on past election losses, D'Aluzio attributes them to Democrats' failure to effectively counter Trump's populist rhetoric and chaotic policies:

"[54:02] Chris D'Aluzio: ...Trump played on real frustration and anger that people... have seen the American dream slip away."

He emphasizes the importance of Democrats presenting clear, actionable policies to regain trust and win back critical swing states:

"[56:30] Chris D'Aluzio: ...we need to have more of that... who we're standing up for in those fights."

Insider Trading and Congressional Corruption [64:47 - 65:48]

The discussion shifts to concerns about insider trading within Congress related to tariff reversals. D'Aluzio condemns stock trading by Congress members, advocating for investigations:

"[64:47] Chris D'Aluzio: ...I don't think anyone in Congress should be trading stocks, period... that is corrupt to its core."

Oval Office Meeting with El Salvador’s President [66:07 - 71:07]

D'Aluzio critiques Trump's meeting with El Salvador's President Bukele, highlighting the absurdity of engaging with authoritarian leaders while neglecting traditional allies:

"[66:07] Chris D'Aluzio: ...the leader of the free world is now with a dictator... Bukele has a really high approval rating because his administration is better for El Salvador than the prior one."

He underscores the need for Democrats to defend constitutional norms and ensure such incidents do not set dangerous precedents:

"[68:02] Chris D'Aluzio: ...we have to defend our Constitution... Standing up against unfair deportations is a moment where our system is tested."

Segment 4: Light-Hearted “Bro Talk” and Cultural Engagement

Wrapping up the episode, Tim Miller and Congressman D'Aluzio engage in a casual discussion about cultural events like wrestling, highlighting the importance of relatable personalities in politics:

"[70:36] Chris D'Aluzio: ...I love the spectacle of wrestling... I have been a huge WWF fan."

They conclude with a humorous exchange, reinforcing the podcast’s blend of serious political discourse and lighter moments.

Key Takeaways

1. Tariffs and Economic Uncertainty: The Trump administration's unpredictable tariff policies are causing significant instability in the bond market and diminishing global investment in the U.S., undermining the dollar's strength and the country's role as the world's reserve currency.

2. Impact on U.S. Global Standing: Aggressive and inconsistent trade policies are eroding the U.S.’s credibility, making other regions like Europe and Asia more attractive for investment, which could have long-term negative repercussions on the U.S. economy.

3. Internal Critique of Administration Officials: Treasury Secretary Scott Besant and Commerce Secretary Lutnick are criticized for their ineffective handling of tariffs, exacerbating economic challenges instead of mitigating them.

4. Democratic Strategy and Messaging: Congressman D'Aluzio advocates for a more assertive Democratic approach against harmful economic policies, emphasizing the need to clearly oppose Trump’s strategies and present unified, actionable policies to win back critical voter bases.

5. Corruption and Insider Trading Concerns: There is bipartisan concern over potential insider trading within Congress related to tariff reversals, highlighting issues of trust and integrity within government institutions.

6. Defense of Constitutional Norms: The episode underscores the importance of upholding constitutional principles and opposing authoritarian alliances, as exemplified by the critique of Trump’s meeting with El Salvador’s President Bukele.

7. Balancing Seriousness with Relatability: The podcast effectively balances in-depth political analysis with lighter, relatable conversations, making complex topics accessible to a broader audience.

Notable Quotes

• Josh Barro on Bond Market Indicators [01:27]:

  "Normally the safest thing possible is US treasury bonds and the US Dollar."

• Josh Barro on Tariffs Freezing Investment [06:39]:

  "It's freezing investment in the United States."

• Chris D'Aluzio on Democratic Messaging [56:30]:

  "We need to have more of that... who we're standing up for in those fights."

• Chris D'Aluzio on Congressional Insider Trading [64:47]:

  "I don't think anyone in Congress should be trading stocks, period... that is corrupt to its core."

• Chris D'Aluzio on Constitutional Defense [68:02]:

  "We have to defend our Constitution... Standing up against unfair deportations is a moment where our system is tested."

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast provides a comprehensive analysis of the detrimental effects of the Trump administration's tariff policies on the U.S. economy and its global standing. Both Josh Barro and Congressman Chris D'Aluzio offer critical insights into the need for Democrats to adopt a more aggressive and unified stance against these policies. The discussion also touches upon internal governance issues, including potential insider trading, and emphasizes the importance of upholding constitutional norms. Balancing these serious topics with lighter moments, the episode offers listeners both depth and accessibility in understanding the current political and economic landscape.