Detailed Summary of "The Bulwark Podcast" S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump

Release Date: April 18, 2025
Hosts: Tim Miller and Anne Applebaum

Introduction

The episode opens with Tim Miller welcoming Anne Applebaum, a renowned staff writer at The Atlantic and the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Gulag: A History. The discussion quickly centers around recent news concerning Chris Van Hollen's successful advocacy to secure the release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from Sukkot, an El Salvadoran prison likened to a gulag.

The Release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia and Its Implications

Tim Miller initiates the conversation by highlighting Chris Van Hollen's meeting with Kilmar Abrego Garcia, marking a significant moment as Garcia becomes possibly the first known individual freed from Sukkot.

Key Points:

• Staging of Garcia's Release: Anne expresses concern over the manner in which Garcia was released, noting the controlled environment aimed at portraying him as "absolutely fine." (00:43-02:34)

  “There was some kind of restaurant looking setting. It was clearly designed to show that nothing all that bad is happening.”
  — Anne Applebaum (00:56)

• Positive Action vs. Propaganda: While praising Van Hollen's efforts to save an innocent man, Anne warns of the broader implications, questioning whether the administration will adhere to the Supreme Court's demands to release Garcia and others unjustly detained.

Propaganda and the Manipulation of Perception

The discussion delves into the dual nature of Garcia's release as both a genuine rescue effort and a potential propaganda tool for the El Salvadoran regime led by Bukele.

Key Points:

• Propaganda Tactics: Anne asserts that the release was undoubtedly a propaganda move aimed at showcasing the regime's fairness and suppressing dissent.

  “When you're dealing with a regime like that, everything is a game and everything is a trick.”
  — Anne Applebaum (05:02)

• American Response to Foreign Propaganda: She emphasizes the necessity for Americans to recognize that propaganda extends beyond words and images to include orchestrated actions designed to manipulate perceptions.

Comparing Modern Actions to the Soviet Gulag

Anne draws parallels between the current situation in El Salvador and the historical Soviet Gulag system, emphasizing the erosion of the rule of law and the dangers of arbitrary detentions.

Key Points:

• Logic of Expansion: Anne outlines how the initial justification for detaining individuals can pave the way for broader and more arbitrary incarcerations.

  “Once it's okay to send a random person out of the country to a zone of lawlessness, once you can't get them back... is a grave violation of the spirit of our Constitution.”
  — Anne Applebaum (07:08)

• Silence and Invisibility: She highlights how the detentions remain out of the public eye, analogous to how Soviet Gulags operated away from the daily lives of ordinary citizens.

Erosion of the Rule of Law: Judicial Perspectives

Tim references a statement from Judge Wilkinson, a Reagan appointee, criticizing the government’s actions in detaining Garcia without due process.

Key Points:

• Judicial Condemnation: Anne applauds the judge’s stance as a necessary defense of the constitutional principles of liberty and due process.

  “They were making absolutely clear why this is a violation of the essence of our constitutional republic.”
  — Anne Applebaum (12:31)

• Historical Context: She connects these judicial affirmations to the longstanding American traditions of rule of law and separation of powers, underscoring their importance in maintaining a unified and prosperous republic.

Kleptocracy, Inc.: Corruption and Influence in Trump’s Administration

Anne elaborates on her recent article for The Atlantic titled "Kleptocracy, Inc.," which explores the intertwining of American government, foreign policy, and trade policies to benefit the president and his associates.

Key Points:

• Defining Kleptocracy: Anne defines kleptocracy as the use of political power to enrich oneself and close associates, highlighting unprecedented levels of corruption in the current administration.

  “The president himself... attended a golf tournament sponsored by companies from Saudi Arabia... that's unthinkable in any other administration.”
  — Anne Applebaum (15:27)

• Examples of Corruption: She cites instances such as the Trump family’s investments in Saudi Arabia, involvement in cryptocurrency businesses, and Elon Musk’s influence over government agencies, portraying these as blatant abuses resembling Russian-style oligarchy.

  “This is about as fundamental a violation of what government is for... democracy as anything that we've seen.”
  — Anne Applebaum (15:27)

• Impact on Rule of Law: Anne argues that such corruption undermines the rule of law, leading to weakened regulatory frameworks and increasing risks to public safety and economic stability.

Reflections on Institutional Failures During Trump’s First Term

Tim Miller and Anne discuss the lack of robust opposition and meaningful investigations into corruption during Trump's first term, contrasting it with the current administration's actions.

Key Points:

• Missed Opportunities for Accountability: Anne reflects on how early in Trump's presidency, actions that hinted at oligarchic tendencies were downplayed or overlooked, allowing deeper corruption to take root.

  “We underreacted to the corruption, we underreacted to the beginnings of oligarchy.”
  — Anne Applebaum (22:20)

• Consequences of Inaction: This failure to address and curb corruption early on has led to more entrenched and systemic abuses of power in the current administration.

Lessons from Hungary’s Authoritarian Shift

Anne draws comparisons between the United States’ current trajectory and Hungary’s gradual descent into authoritarianism under Viktor Orban.

Key Points:

• Slow Erosion of Institutions: She explains how Orban’s long-term strategy involved incremental changes that systematically dismantled democratic institutions, a cautionary tale for the U.S.

  “Orban was able to change the constitution. He kept manipulating it. He undermined the judiciary.”
  — Anne Applebaum (25:19)

• Economic Decline: Anne highlights Hungary’s economic downturn as a direct consequence of authoritarian policies, emphasizing that authoritarianism is economically detrimental.

  “Authoritarianism makes you poor.”
  — Anne Applebaum (30:31)

• Rapid vs. Gradual Changes: Contrasting Hungary’s slow changes with the U.S.’s rapid shifts, Anne warns of the accelerated erosion of democratic norms in America.

  “What’s happening here in the United States is much faster.”
  — Anne Applebaum (25:19)

US Foreign Policy and Humanitarian Aid: The Impact on Africa

The conversation shifts to the Trump administration’s policies affecting humanitarian aid in Africa, with a focus on cutting emergency food supplies to countries like Somalia and Zambia.

Key Points:

• Humanitarian Consequences: Anne shares a poignant experience from Sudan, illustrating the human cost of reducing USAID’s support, where children’s lives depend on aid like the nutritional supplement Plumpy Nut.

  “It was so tragic and so moving, the way in which USAID was destroyed.”
  — Anne Applebaum (39:17)

• Global Ramifications: She underscores the long-term negative effects of cutting aid, including deteriorating health systems and increased mortality rates, exacerbating global instability.

  “The echoes... are going to be with us for years and years.”
  — Anne Applebaum (41:44)

The US Stance on the Russia-Ukraine War

Tim references a recent statement by Senator Marco Rubio, advocating for a swift end to U.S. involvement in the Russia-Ukraine conflict, prompting Anne to critique the administration's ineffective approach.

Key Points:

• Rubio’s Position on Ukraine: Anne criticizes Rubio’s proposal to possibly abandon Ukraine's fight against Russian aggression, highlighting the administration’s lack of clear strategy and pressure on Russia.

  “Trump has an imaginary idea that he has a deep relationship with Putin, but it exists in his head.”
  — Anne Applebaum (45:10)

• Failure to Support Ukraine: She emphasizes that without concrete support and demands for Russia to recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty, the U.S. is failing to contribute meaningfully to ending the conflict.

  “The administration has put no pressure on Russia.”
  — Anne Applebaum (42:56)

Book Recommendations and Personal Insights

As the episode nears its end, Tim lightens the discussion by asking Anne for personal recommendations to provide listeners with an escape from the heavy topics discussed.

Key Points:

• Personal Escapes: Anne shares her love for walking in beautiful places, citing locations like Washington’s Billy Goat Trail and Warsaw’s Wazinke Park as her preferred escapes.

  “Lots of my real escapes are to do with walking in pretty places and going outside.”
  — Anne Applebaum (45:58)

• Cultural Observations: She humorously mentions that her countryside house in Poland offers access to European alcohol, adding a personal touch to her recommendations.

  “We have no tariffs in Poland that prevent the import of French wine.”
  — Anne Applebaum (46:30)

Closing Remarks

Tim thanks Anne Applebaum for her insightful contributions, expressing hope for her return on future episodes. The episode concludes with humorous, non-content segments featuring unidentified speakers.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Anne Applebaum on Propaganda:

  “Propaganda is also actions. You know, you can seek to make a political point through doing things, through staging events...”
  (05:02)

• Anne Applebaum on the Rule of Law:

  “This is the kind of statement that we've been waiting for. This is what the courts should be doing.”
  (12:31)

• Anne Applebaum on Kleptocracy:

  “This is about as fundamental a violation of what government is for.”
  (15:27)

• Anne Applebaum on Authoritarianism and Economy:

  “Authoritarianism makes you poor.”
  (30:31)

• Anne Applebaum on US Foreign Aid:

  “It was, you know, the idea that a doctor in a hospital like that, in a war zone was having to justify... that was so tragic and so moving.”
  (39:17)

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers a profound analysis of current political developments through the lens of historical contexts and personal expertise. Anne Applebaum provides a critical examination of the erosion of democratic norms, the rise of kleptocracy, and the devastating impact of compromised foreign policies, urging listeners to recognize and confront the subtle shifts towards authoritarianism.