The Bulwark Podcast – Episode S2 Ep1025: Bill Kristol on Hegseth's Unfitness
Release Date: April 21, 2025
Hosts: Tim Miller, Bill Kristol
Guests: Joe Perdicone

Overview

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, hosts Tim Miller and Bill Kristol engage in an in-depth discussion with Joe Perdicone, the editor at large of The Bulwark and correspondent in Rome, who is simultaneously attending his wedding. The conversation primarily centers around the recent political upheavals surrounding Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, the passing of Pope Francis, and broader implications for U.S. foreign policy and domestic politics.

1. The Passing of Pope Francis

Key Points:

• Joe Perdicone's Presence in Rome: Joe, who was attending his wedding in Rome, provides firsthand observations on the sudden death of Pope Francis, the first Jesuit pope and a significant figure in both Catholic and global communities.

• Pope Francis's Legacy: The discussion highlights Pope Francis's humanitarian efforts, including his acknowledgment of gay Catholics and his compassionate actions towards AIDS patients in Argentina. His leadership marked a shift in tone within the Catholic Church without radical doctrinal changes.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Kristol [00:38]: "The death of Pope Francis, our first Jesuit pope, ... someone that I feel a little, even as a lapsed Catholic, a little kindred spirit too."

• Joe Perdicone [39:55]: "Because we were there, like right when it happened... it was very powerful."

Timestamp Highlights:

• [38:14 - 40:18]: Joe Perdicone shares his experiences witnessing the immediate reaction to Pope Francis's death in St. Peter's Square, describing the scene as one of shock and reverence.

• [49:21 - 51:36]: The hosts reflect on Pope Francis’s inclusive approach and his emphasis on compassion over doctrinal rigidity, noting his focus on the poor and marginalized.

2. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s Unfitness for Office

Key Points:

• Recent Controversies: Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, has faced multiple scandals, including unauthorized sharing of war plans via Signal chat and the subsequent firing of his aides under dubious circumstances.

• Political Fallout: The episode delves into the Republican senators' role in confirming Hegseth despite clear red flags regarding his competence and personal conduct. The hosts criticize the senators for prioritizing re-election prospects over national security.

• Potential Resignation or Removal: There's speculation about Hegseth's potential ousting due to the growing evidence of his recklessness and the internal pushback from within the administration.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Kristol [07:59]: "Pete Egseth had never run a large organization... it's just really shameful that the senators did not take the opportunity to say, no, we can't do this deputy."

• Joe Perdicone [05:41]: "It's intolerable the situation that he's SecDef. And they need to tell the President that."

Timestamp Highlights:

• [04:00 - 07:59]: Detailed account of the Signal chat leaks, the involvement of Hegseth’s associates, and the ensuing media reports.

• [11:13 - 16:49]: Analysis of Hegseth's managerial failings, personal misconduct, and the insufficient response from Republican senators who approved his appointment despite his evident unsuitability.

3. U.S. Foreign Policy and Ukraine

Key Points:

• Negotiation Stalemate: The hosts discuss the U.S. under the current administration's waning support for Ukraine, citing Alexander Rubio’s statements on the stalled negotiations with European allies.

• Potential Withdrawal: Concerns are raised about the implications of a U.S. withdrawal from its commitment to Ukraine, potentially emboldening Putin and destabilizing the region further.

• European Role: Emphasis on the crucial role Europe must play in supporting Ukraine, especially in the face of diminishing U.S. involvement.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Kristol [22:26]: "The deal that was on the table is a bad deal for Ukraine... the prospect of removing sanctions and stuff like that."

• Joe Perdicone [22:26]: "Either way, you're absolutely right. The threat is that we walk away."

Timestamp Highlights:

• [21:00 - 24:43]: Examination of Rubio’s stance on negotiations with Europe, the potential consequences of a U.S. withdrawal, and the broader strategic implications for Ukraine and regional stability.

4. Domestic Politics and Policy Critiques

Key Points:

• Van Hollen’s Comments on El Salvador: The hosts analyze Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen's controversial remarks on El Salvador, critiquing the administration's policies on migrants and the implications for U.S. relations with Central America.

• Judicial Responses: Discussion on the response from the judiciary, particularly Judge J. Harvey Wilkinson's pushback against executive overreach in immigration policies.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Kristol [35:51]: "They weren't who knows what private leave... but that I agree the 7:2 on the emergency opinion is a real sign."

• Joe Perdicone [28:30]: "The judge was just appalled. And this is not consistent with the most fundamental characteristics of the rule of law."

Timestamp Highlights:

• [25:05 - 34:25]: Deliberation on the internal conflicts within the Democratic Party, the challenges Senator Van Hollen faces, and the judiciary's role in restraining executive power.

• [33:05 - 34:25]: Insights into Judge Wilkinson's ruling and its significance in upholding the rule of law against executive overreach.

5. Cultural and Societal Observations

Key Points:

• The Perfect Gene Advertisement: A brief, humorous interlude where Bill Kristol discusses his growing appreciation for comfortable jeans, tying it into a sponsored segment for The Perfect Gene NYC.

• Historical Reflections: The hosts draw parallels between contemporary political grievances against leaders like Trump and the historical grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence against King George, emphasizing the timeless nature of certain political struggles.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Kristol [34:25]: "Let me read a couple of them for people because it's pretty jarring just how apt it is to our current moment."

Timestamp Highlights:

• [10:12 - 17:59]: Commentary on the intersection of culture, politics, and personal anecdotes, providing a relatable and engaging break from the heavy political discourse.

6. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the intertwined nature of personal, political, and global events. Joe Perdicone provides a final update from Rome regarding the Pope's funeral, while the hosts reiterate the critical stance on current political appointments and foreign policy decisions.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Kristol [44:32]: "The normalization of these extreme policies... is undermining our democracy."

Timestamp Highlights:

• [46:00 - 54:02]: Final thoughts on Pope Francis's impact, the significance of his passing, and the broader implications for the Catholic Church and American politics.

Key Takeaways

• Leadership Accountability: The episode underscores the necessity for political leaders to exhibit competence and integrity, critiquing the Republican senators' endorsement of Pete Hegseth despite clear indications of his unfitness for the role.

• Foreign Policy Concerns: There is significant concern about the U.S. potentially scaling back its support for Ukraine, which could have dire consequences for regional stability and international perceptions of American commitment.

• Judiciary's Role: The judiciary is highlighted as a crucial check against executive overreach, with notable praise for judges like J. Harvey Wilkinson who uphold the rule of law despite political pressures.

• Cultural Reflections: The conversation intertwines serious political analysis with cultural reflections, illustrating the pervasive impact of politics on everyday life and societal values.

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast provides a comprehensive analysis of critical political developments, blending firsthand observations with seasoned commentary. Listeners gain insight into the complexities of leadership, the fragility of foreign alliances, and the enduring relevance of foundational democratic principles.

For more detailed analysis and insights, listen to the full episode of The Bulwark Podcast or visit The Bulwark's website.