← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:00]
Cory Booker
Foreign.
- [00:13]
Tim Miller
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Jazz Fest, so we'll be seeing you all out there for goose this afternoon. And yes, that's a new podcast theme. Shout out to New Orleans own John Michael Rochelle and our producer Jason Brown for their effort on that. Today we've got Democratic senator from New Jersey. He recently delivered the longest speech in US history, a mere 25 hours and five minutes, breaking Strom Thurman's record for his filibuster against civil rights. He was mayor of Newark from 2006 to 2013. It's Cory Booker. How you doing, Senator?
- [00:44]
Cory Booker
I'm doing really well. It's great to be with you. Thank you for having me.
- [00:47]
Tim Miller
Thank you for doing it. I want to get to filibuster talk, but unfortunately there's a lot of news. Last night, Russia launched 70 missiles, about 150 drones in one of the largest attacks on Kyiv. Yet there are attacks all over Ukraine. Our President Trump said he's not really happy with the Russian strikes on Kyiv, but his harsher words for President Zelensky and saying that his inflammatory statements are making it difficult to settle the war. I'm wondering what you think about the state apply.
- [01:15]
Cory Booker
I think this president has betrayed American traditions, American allies, and frankly, the incredible people of Ukraine. His leadership over the last hundred days has almost been like an invitation to the Russians to continue what has been roundly condemned by the international community as a unjustified war of aggression. And that allowances and coddling of Putin has endangered democracies across the world and endangered the world order. And the way he's conducting it in this most recent peace proposal, he has the treatment of Zelenskyy and the demeaning and degrading way he discussed, talks about him as the dictator and coddles Putin. All of this is so offensive not just to Democrats, but to the traditions of the Republican Party, going back to the strong stance that Ronald Reagan took against the then Soviet Union.
- [02:09]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I'm going to have this question for you across several topics. But are you talking to your Republican colleagues? I mean, half of them voted for Ukraine aid. Where are they on this?
- [02:18]
Cory Booker
You know, I have very direct conversations with some of my best allies around the war in Ukraine for the past years. And, you know, in private, they'll be very strong in their criticism. Some of them will say some things. But as you said across the board, the crisis right now is not what Trump is doing simply. It's the silence, inaction, complicity of people who know better. And this is a moral crisis in our country where people are afraid. Understandably, many of the Republicans that have stood up and spoken truth to power, they're gone. Cheney, Jeff Flake. I could go through the courageous Republicans, many of whom I have very different myriad disagreements with. But when it came to a moral moment in this country where you had to choose patriotism over party, they chose patriotism and have suffered for it. So it does take a profile in courage right now to condemn this president in a full throated way with the threat that he is posing in this case to the rules based world order. But unfortunately, we're not seeing that kind of strength of conviction.
- [03:22]
Tim Miller
Yeah, speaking of strength, I hate to be this reductive, but these guys love talking about masculinity, like who's tough and who's strong and who's weak. And have you ever seen anything weaker than Donald Trump's treatment of Vladimir Putin? I mean, he's asking him nicely, like, please stop bombing. I'm trying to give you everything you want. And it is like the opposite of strong, confident American leadership, masculine leadership on the world stage. What do you think?
- [03:50]
Cory Booker
First of all, strength comes from moral clarity. Donald Trump has no moral guiding force. It is simple, resolute. This is what we stand for as a people. You know, Donald Trump is violating, as I said, from the strength of Ronald Reagan, the evil empire. Tear down this wall, Mr. Gorbachev. He's violating the moral clarity of a Kennedy. Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country. Donald Trump is. Ask what you can do for Donald Trump. He seems to respect people that are amoral, like he respects, when asked, you know, who his favorite world leaders are, he constantly refers to strongman dictators, people who have eroded democratic norms and principles. So I think strength comes from having a moral core. And standing up regardless of where the political winds might go is having that kind of conviction. And Donald Trump does not have that. In addition to that, the way that world leaders play him, the way that world leaders manipulate him is to me so obvious. People know the playbook of how to flatter him, how to give him sort of a false sense of confidence and ease and then clean his clothes. The Great Dealmaker seems to not know how to really make a deal that's in the best interest of this country. And watching him continually get played on the world stage is very frustrating.
- [05:17]
Tim Miller
I guess that's like my last question about this deal and the Great Dealmaker. This seems like a silly question, but unfortunately, it isn't. I mean, you're in the U.S. senate. Is it clear to you which side our government is on in this negotiation, in this deal? Like who they want to get the better end of the deal between, between Russia and Ukraine?
- [05:33]
Cory Booker
Well, again, not only the deal they put forward, but then Donald Trump's almost childish tantrum after Zelensky didn't take a deal that no objective observer would say the Ukrainian people should accept. Tepid security guarantees, a ban on joining the alliance, which is one of their biggest sort of points of leverage, a surrendering of land in which Ukrainians have suffered and died upon, bled for, gave up tremendous blood and treasure for just capitulating and rewarding the aggressor. All of this is offensive on its face. And for Donald Trump to make this the beginning point of his negotiations, he went into these negotiations surrendering without the Ukrainians there, but surrendering their positions and leverage, capitulating to Putin. This will go down in history as one of the worst negotiations and peace proposals made by any American president of this last century, going back to World War II and World War I. And the kind of align yourself with the people that are upending the world rules based order is such an offense. I had a foreign minister of a European country sitting in my office, asked to meet with me, closed the door. This was days after we, the United States of America, in a UN Resolution, sided with China and Russia against the European Union, against our NATO allies, against other free democracies, failing to support Ukraine and condemn the war. It was around the anniversary of it, and the guy just looked at me with a sense of bewilderment and astonishment and saying, is this real? Is this real? And that's really what we've done. We've left our allies perplexed that America isn't just turning its face inward. It is actually actively undermining the democratic nations of the world, upending the world economy, upending global security issues, leaving global alliances for everything from climate change to mutual security. This president is so destructive that most of the major nations of the world, our normal allies, are trying now to figure out how to move forward. Nations committed to values and principles we used to once adhere to, how to move forward without the United States of America, and that includes our closest allies like Canada, that he demeans and Degrades, calling the 51st state the nation that more than any other has stood with the United States, war after war, stood beside us, bled beside us, sacrifice for us, and frankly to both of our mutual benefits, has strong economic ties it's.
- [08:23]
Tim Miller
Kind of remarkable that Marco Rubio is the chief diplomat for that foreign policy that you just laid out. Your former colleague.
- [08:29]
Cory Booker
Not only my foreign colleague, but my former partner on so much good work on USAID foreign aid. I mean, you could play quotes from him a few years ago and lay them next to what he's doing right now. And it's almost like he's turning his back on things he stood for and fought for when he was a United States Senator. He is. I know this man again, I know what he values, what he's fought for. I've heard him with moral clarity condemn Donald Trump in his primary fight against him and then suddenly fall in line with Donald Trump. I know what his record in the Senate has stood for. And now again, he is doing things directly.
- [09:09]
Tim Miller
Maybe you didn't know him though, maybe he really just wanted power and influence and that was really what was motivating him the whole time. And he thought that, you know, the more Reaganite path was the way to do it until it was clear that it wasn't. I don't know, I mean, that's maybe ungenerous, but I don't, I'm not sure what else the facts would bear out.
- [09:29]
Cory Booker
This isn't just policy. This isn't just aspirations for power. We are seeing both the world and our nation change in such fundamental ways. We are in such a state of global crisis and such a state of national crisis as who will America be in the world and at home? And there's such a trashing of global democratic ideals and here at home, the values, ideals and principles that both sides have committed themselves to, that not to understand the gravity of the decisions people are making right now and the erosion of who we are and what we stand for and the consequences of that. The problem with the way we talk often about these things is we belittle or normalize them as if it's just the day to day political scorecard. This is not politics. This is really a crisis of morals and values that have real life consequences on security of nations, preservation of democracies, and frankly here at home, the well being of hundreds of millions of people.
- [10:31]
Tim Miller
There's no issue where that's more clear and where Marco has also not flipped more dramatically than on immigration issue. When it comes to the temporary protected status of fleeing communism that we're taking away in Venezuela and worse in the situation of El Salvador, we've taken some people that have fled communism, come to America looking for safety as so many of in the past, and we have now sent them to a prison dungeon in a foreign country because of their tattoos with no due process.
- [10:59]
Cory Booker
It goes further than that. And again, their idea is to flood the zone. And I want to just give you an example that it's just not getting enough attention. There are people here, temporary protected status from Afghanistan. Many of them are Christians who fled the Taliban, who killed Americans, who have brought about such savagery against women, really, the people that were our enemy over there. And Donald Trump has sent them letters saying that we're sending you back, that you need to leave our country. People who have a record of supporting the United States, who we, again, in a bipartisan way, works to secure here, he's now upending. And so his immigration policies are such a violation, as you said, of core constitutional values that we've seen the Supreme Court 90 affirm things like due process, but also deeper our commitment to being a nation that is a light of hope and freedom and opens its doors to people escaping persecution in the case of Afghanistan, persecution that we know all too well and have lost American lives in fighting against.
- [12:07]
Tim Miller
We're not that, though, now, right? I mean, I hate to be this blunt about this sort of stuff, but we can't say that we're a nation, that it's a light of hope and freedom throughout the world when we're sending people back to communist countries, to Taliban run countries, sending them to prisons in other countries to rotate, and that's what the country is now. And I just think it's important to say that, I mean, you're in the Senate. John Thune is the leader of the Senate. Where is John Thune on this? While we have just turned off the light of America, I guess would be my question.
- [12:41]
Cory Booker
This is where I've got to not disagree with you, but help you understand. My parents came up in a time where the laws of this nation, the laws of this nation denied them equal dignity and equal rights. I mean, literally, my parents were stopped from buying the house that I grew up in based upon this legacy of housing discrimination in this country. And so understand this. Like my parents, my grandparents believed in this nation, believed in it, and the values that Donald Trump is trashing, even when this country didn't believe in them, they loved this nation, even when this nation didn't love them back. And that's the tradition that we have to call upon right now, the tradition that made LGBTQ Americans fight to make America live up to its promise and its hope. Or women, or immigrants, Catholics. Back in the time that there was an entire political party called the Know Nothings. This is a time that I can't surrender to cynicism about America. I can't allow the demagoguery that echoes the past, from Father Conklin to McCarthyism to the Japanese internment to turning away of the saint. I think it was St. Louis that brought Holocaust survivors, and then they were sent back. All of these things are wretched, dark corners of our history. But people didn't give up in believing in who we are. As the great poet Langston Hughes said, america never was America to me, but I swear this oath, America will be. And so this is that kind of conviction that's needed. And I refuse to stop believing in us. And just because we have a demagogic leader who is such an affront to the values I think this country most adheres to. This is the time that we should be speaking and affirming with even greater conviction of who we are and fighting against the forces that have been there since our beginning that seem to want to undermine the highest ideals and values of our nation. And even our founders, these imperfect geniuses, these. These guys who called Native Americans savages and blacks fractions of human beings and didn't even refer to women. The humility that they had in understanding what it would make to make an imperfect, more perfect union and their appeal to the highest virtues of mankind. Read George Washington's farewell address, who almost said that history is going to judge him harshly. And he understood that his imperfections and mistakes, humility that Donald Trump has an inability to show, but always they were ascribing to the higher angels of our nature. And this idea that America, though that not there yet, was on a journey towards greater justice, that future generations would advance. That's the traditions right now that I feel, and it's often out of the darkest moments, the most painful moments, that we somehow not only find a way through them, but find a way to more advance towards the truth that I think is the calling of this country.
- [15:42]
Tim Miller
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- [17:08]
Cory Booker
I listen to your guys podcast. I think that you all do a really good job and I'm sorry, you're not asking me for this. I know my cultural traditions. Black radio here in Washington D.C. this is where my parents came from, both from HBCUs to Chocolate City is what it used to be called before so gentrified. And it was so much injustice going on here. But blacks and whites. How my dad got his job being the first black salesman hired by IBM and then crushed it for the company. That's how I got to New Jersey is he was promoted because he was the top 5% of global salesman. My dad got that job because of activists in the black community. And the white community had put pressure talking about DEI hires, put pressure on companies to like hire qualified blacks who then help that company further advance. But I say this to tell you that people like you who were willing to entertain, inform, engage, they became the most valuable voices during some of the most tumultuous times. My dad told me about the urban upheaval here when King was killed and the agony people felt and how much they held on to voices like yours. And I'll remind you, it wasn't just to curse the darkness. It was also people who understood, who have roles like yours that are not in the left right poles of our country but provide voices of strength. Part of it was about how much they lit fires of hope. And I think that that's the moment that we're a little bit missing, and especially the Democratic Party, I think is missing right now. And I just take you to a moment. My mom volunteered. She used to work for the D.C. public Schools before she herself took a job with IBM as one of their first black women in the position she took. But she worked for the D.C. public Schools, had the summer off. So she worked to organize, help organize the march on Washington, Manda Booth on the Mall, helping people who needed housing if they couldn't get transportation back to where they drove in from, bused in from. And she told me that the remarkable thing about that day for her, besides the fact that most people forget that it was about there were more pillars that day about economic justice than about racial justice. But what she said was remarkable that day is that when Martin Luther King had his moment, he did not unfurl a list of grievances against the demagogues of the day. He didn't talk about George Wallace and his darkness. He didn't talk about, you know, Bull Connor. He took this moment where children were dying in church bombings, where people were getting beaten on their marches and on their freedom rides with billy clubs. We know Bloody Sunday. The rhetoric of those days speaks to the horrors that blacks were experiencing and many whites who were sitting in solidarity with them, like Goodman, Cheney and Schwarner, black, white, Christian and Jewish, who died together in Mississippi. Amidst all of that, King stands up and does not simply speak to the darkness. He ignites a vision of America that was so compelling and inspired the moral imagination not just of Democrats of the day, but of all Americans. This is one of those moments. And I'll tell you, Shiva is the God of destruction, but in the Hindu faith is revered because you cannot have rebirth and renewal without the God of destruction. And King, in that moral moment, didn't say America is lost, called America to find its way back to its North Star. And so I think that that's the other half of this moment, was we have to check Donald Trump everywhere. We have to amass the urgency amongst more good people who are doing not enough, including myself. It is about the fight, but it's also about in this moment more than any other moment. We need to start talking about who America is and will be on the other side of. Of this darkness, what's compelling us. Because too many people have given up on the idea of America. Too many people don't believe in the promise of America. We do not feel the kind of common calling and Common Cause. And I think this is the very time that we need to also be talking to that as well.
- [21:11]
Tim Miller
This is a helpful sermon for our listeners. I get it. I feel this way. I have the humility. And this is not the only time that I've been ranting, shaking my fist against the dying of the light. And having somebody who comes from a tradition like yours, having a black person or somebody who is from another marginalized group say to me, man, Tim, like, we've been through this before. This is just happening to you now. We've been through this before. And I appreciate that. I truly do. I also have a tradition that I come from these Normie, supposed Normie, white Republican men that are your colleagues. And while I respect and really do appreciate the lack of cynicism when thinking about the American people and the American idea, I don't know how you cannot turn to anything but cynicism when you look at the people down the hallway from you. And I don't know how somebody like John Thune, who's running the Senate, can sit by idly as we sell out Ukraine, as we put people in cells because they wrote an op ed, as we send people to a torture dungeon in El Salvador. None of this was in the tradition that he came up in when he was running for office for 20 years. And he's going along with it. And I get a little frustrated that these guys just get a pass for what they're doing. You got to go to the gym with them every day, as Chuck Schumer said. And I don't know. I don't know that I'm satisfied with them complaining about it in the gym. I'd like a little bit more.
- [22:34]
Cory Booker
Yeah. And again, okay, now what? Like, I'm not going to disagree.
- [22:39]
Tim Miller
Now what? Great.
- [22:40]
Cory Booker
But now what? Like, okay, you've described what is and now what. And I will tell you the now what is. How have people changed in the past? How did we win the vote in 2017 when tens of millions of Americans were about to lose healthcare? When we were about to go back to a nation where if you had a preexisting condition, you couldn't get insured and being a woman was considered a pre existing condition? How did we fight that? Describing who they are is, in a sense, implicating us because you are not defined by what happens to you or who other people are. You decide how you, how you choose to act. And the way we won in 2017 was people realizing they couldn't just condemn the Republicans who weren't working. They needed to stand up and do something to persuade them, give them pathways to redemption. And I loved those days. Maybe I love them now in retrospect because we won. But I was overwhelmed by the American people. I would like to.
- [23:42]
Tim Miller
What about pressure, though? I hear redemption. What about pressure? Like, are there not 67 votes in the Senate for Ukraine aid? I think there are. Are there not 67 votes in the Senate for blocking us from sending people to El Salvador? Maybe there aren't, I don't know. But none of these guys have to answer for it. So, like, let's.
- [23:57]
Cory Booker
Yeah, but how do we get those votes? And I would love to tell you right now that it was my eloquence and persuasive power that I marched into John McCain's office, slammed the door behind me, got up to him with all of my former six three solid 260 pound muscle, and got in John McCain's face and intimidated. I'd love to tell you some glorious story about how I persuaded John McCain, but it was not me. It wasn't one of the Democrats in the Senate that persuaded John McCain. You know who persuaded John McCain? It was thousands of people from his state coming here and telling their stories. It was little lobbyists, these children with disabilities, beautiful children rolling up in their wheelchairs with such moral clarity and telling him what would happen if he dared to take away their healthcare. It was the power of the people overcoming the people in power. And so we are in that moment and as King said, what we will have to repent for, especially if we lose this fight coming up in this work period where they're going to try to tear away $880 billion from Medicaid. What we will have to repent for, as King said in his time, is not the vitriolic words and violent actions of the bad people simply, but the appalling silence and inaction of the good people. You're wondering why they're not changing their mind.
- [25:16]
Tim Miller
I'm not wondering why they're not changing their mind. I know why they're not changing their mind. They're cowards. But I'm wondering why it feels, and I'm kind of on your side of this. It feels like people want us to do something. And that's why I think your filibuster spoke to people. But there's this pressure. Why aren't Democrats figuring out more? Why aren't they doing more? Why is Trump doing this? Why isn't the media doing this? It's like those guys down the hall from you are the problem. John Thune and John Cornyn is the problem. And nobody talks about. I mean, they're not feeling the heat. I guess that's my point. Maybe they'll never crack, but I'd like them to do it. At least feel the heat. I'd like them to look at the dead Ukrainian kids and the gay guy that we've got in a basement. I'd like them to have to look in the face of their family members and say, no, you know what? I'm scared of Donald Trump, so I'm not going to do anything. I would like for that.
- [25:57]
Cory Booker
So I'm going to talk about myself in a second because I feel like I am implicated in the current crisis, that Democrats are implicated in the current crisis. We may not be the blame for this moment, but we helped pave the pathway to this presentation. But I'm going to tell you that I'm upset about the CEO of a company right now that is groveling to Trump to spare his company and knows the larger picture and context in which we're. But fails to stand up and tell the truth. So be it. The universities that are caving to him, the law firms that are caving to him. When is it enough? When they come after the law firms? That's not enough? Okay, what about when they come after the nonprofits, Catholic Charities, unicef? Is that not enough for you? Okay, well, what about when they come for the marginalized and they come for the weak? Is that not enough for you? Okay, well, what about when they come after academic freedom and the average American moderate are gonna say, this is so outrageous and unusual, I'm gonna leave my comfort zone or my own particular pecuniary interests and stand up for patriotism? Because you look back at the chapters of American history and see the people that said enough is enough? They have crossed the line, and this is a call for me to stand up for it? Those are the people that I'm also frustrated with, who don't see it necessary or who are just looking out for their own financial interests. The top 25% of their country has made such enormous wealth in the last 25 years, such enormous privilege. The 4% of humanity that is Americans is. And the top 1% of that 4% are at the top of the pyramid? And you can't give a damn enough about others in your country or in Ukraine or in Sudan to do something right now, as this president is pulling embassies out of African countries that desperately need the American president. When is it enough for you to Know that your grandchildren are gonna look at you and wonder in this period, what the hell did you did? So I'm with you. But now let me talk about myself. Democrats have got to find more ways of fighting and I'm seeing great signs of that in Democrats that are inspiring me and encouraging me. And I sat down with my team after that CR fight we had in my caucus, the most contentious caucus meetings I think I've had in my years here in the Senate. And I, I pulled my team together and I said we have a leadership role amongst the caucus, but I have a leadership role as an individual. And we're going to find new and creative ways to find good to do good trouble. We've got ones coming up. Things that I'm going to do that are unorthodox because my heroes.
- [28:41]
Tim Miller
What's unorthodox? You're going to go up on, you're going to go up on one of Jeff Bezos rockets like what are you going to do, clown nose? Like where, what, what's the Plan? TikTok filibuster 26 hours on TikTok Laosu.
- [28:51]
Cory Booker
Would tell you not to the art of war, not to, you know, tell your tell opposition what you're going to do before you do it. But I guess I'm telling you here is I, I challenge my team to begin to come up with ideas of ways we can fight that are different, the ways that we could take risks.
- [29:10]
Tim Miller
Let's look back then actually because if we're going to do your failings, I've got one failing and not you personally, but the Democrats broadly. You don't have to tell us what the tactics are going forward. Let's look back and part of the reason why we're here is the Democrats really struggled with particular demographic of working class Americans particularly I mean this time. And it's working class white folks been a problem for a while now going the wrong direction. But working class voters of color, particularly men Democrats really struggled with this time. How do you reach those folks? Like I thought the filibuster is great but like is it's the guy working 10 hours a day and like going home having two beers and you know, watching MMA. Did he see the filibuster? Probably not, right? Maybe Cliff, but what are your thoughts for why Democrats have kind of failed there, may not fail but lost ground there.
- [29:54]
Cory Booker
Well, I'm going to first start with you with a, I think a guiding idea in leadership is so important is you can't lead the people if you don't Love the people. And I'm sorry, there are a lot of people in this country that don't feel like the Democrats give a damn about them, that they're not connected in them, that they don't feel like you're out there in the arena every day fighting for me. And if you don't solve that, you're not going to get loyalty from any demographic or base in the party. People don't care how much you know, we got bright and brilliant people in leadership all across the country don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And it just starts with something like that. When I was mayor of the city of Newark, my city overwhelmingly, the number one issue was crime. My pollsters said in all their life they have not seen a singular issue in my city. So I said, look, it's going to. I have a lot of great plans and ideas when I became mayor that we're going to bend the violence curve and the crime curve. And we did. I'm really proud of a lot of the progress we made. But I knew that from number one, my city needs to know I'm fighting for them. And so as soon as I got elected, I said, I'm moving into the sector of the city with the most shooting, the most dangerous sector in the city by police statistics. I'm moving myself in there. And then I said, I'm going to work full time as your mayor from sunup to sundown. But in sundown, I, I'm going to get into a car with my security detail who are in charge of protecting me, but I'm going to start answering calls in the queue. I'm going to be doing patrols till 4 o'clock in the morning. The most dangerous areas, we just were out there chasing down literally in foot chases with a bank robber, you name it. We knew that by the time the third month came in my, in my mayorality, we saw that people got it in their gut that we were fighting for them. They saw me out there, they saw my priorities, they saw my focus. They understood that I was fighting for them. And so I guess my question so.
- [31:37]
Tim Miller
What'S though the gap from that to now? I mean, Kamala only won vice president, only won New Jersey by six points. You know, Biden won it by 16.
- [31:46]
Cory Booker
A huge loss because people are hurting and we have not yet. And by the way, I just want you to know I don't want to discount the incredible things that happened that election that don't get enough attention. Like I only saw once in my 12 years where a senator won in their state where the president of the other party also won. That was Susan Collins. But we did it multiple places. Tammy, Bop, Baldwin, Slotkin, Gallego. These are people that their brand losing.
- [32:12]
Tim Miller
10 points in New Jersey from one election to another is not. And that's 1 in 10 people flipped who should have to vote.
- [32:19]
Cory Booker
Yeah. And so this is a time that in many ways the Democratic Party has to get back focused on people, period. The reason why during my 25 hours we centered the voices of Americans, the very Americans you're talking about that said, hey Booker, you stood for a day. Well, I have two shifts at a diner. I'm on my feet all day or I work in a hospital and I'm around the clock 24 hours emptying bedpans, cleaning floors and doing that. Booker. Hey, I'm a first responder fighting fires in the west because the climate change are getting worse and worse and worse. My shifts are 16 hours. So those are the folk that we said we're going to center their voices and read their letters. And I'm so happy hearing back from people that we spoke of and read their words on the Senate floor to hear now back from many of those folks and others about how meaningful it was that instead of a bunch of what they think of as just legislative processes going on, that the voices of Americans that somebody found a way to break through with them. We need to do more things that show people that we're centering their struggle and that we're going to fight for them and that we actually have ideas now once people feel like we are fighting for them that are so much better than the bankrupt ideas of this president who just wants to again give outrageously great tax cuts to the wealthiest people who've already done so well in this last quarter century by taking away fundamental programs from the very people we're talking about.
- [33:47]
Tim Miller
I'm with you on trying harder. I'm with you on this administration being a disaster and that might end up being enough. I do wonder though, is there do you look back and say man, on some policy things we missed, I don't know, maybe we didn't do enough. This isn't going to appeal to me, but maybe it would appeal to voters more economically populist ideas. Maybe on crime we went too far the other way on some of the policing issues. I don't know. Are there any policy issues that you feel like undergird that big drop among working class voters?
- [34:14]
Cory Booker
I just want to say again, as a guy who is a Bit of a policy nerd and who fought to get things into the agenda of the Senate and the president. Like me, Bennett and Brown on the Senate side, some great House leaders as well. But we lobbied before he swore his oath of office to include an expansion of the child tax credit. Talk about a populist idea. It is the largest middle class tax cut in my lifetime. Between 80 and 90% of New Jerseyans got thousands of dollars more. It cut child poverty almost in half and had profound impact. We were one vote for making it short. That's a real delivered policy. When you talk about crime. And my mind's going to explode. In fact, I think I'm the only person in the United States Senate that lives in a community, number one, that's at or below the poverty line, that has shootings in my neighborhood. Had somebody shot at the top of my block. And if you polled my city after George Floyd and said, do you want more police, less police or the same amount of police, you would have probably gotten 80% of Newarkers to say, we want more police. Now, we don't want them violating our rights, but we clearly need more safety and security. And the Biden administration, most people don't know this. Put more money.
- [35:27]
Tim Miller
Our listeners know it.
- [35:28]
Cory Booker
Okay, yeah, put more. Donald Trump is defunding police right now. You talk about what's going on in the atf, the very people that are supposed to be enforcing our gun laws. Donald Trump is the defender. Joe Biden put more money. And again, I say Joe Biden credit to the Senate Democrats, House Democrats, we put more money into programs like the cops program, burn JAG money over and over and over again. I champion that. As a guy who is in that space of creating a transparency with policing, accountability with policing things that that better professionalize the force that help them with their mental health issues. I'm a big champion of police, but I'm also a big champion of making sure that we're using Obama's 21st century policing task Force, which had police leading, had incredible ideas that we have still failed to implement that would create higher professional standards, more transparency, and stop the silliness like, hey, I can get fired from a job in Cincinnati and then apply for a job in Paterson, New Jersey, and Patterson, New Jersey, has no way of knowing that I was fired for police misconduct or was encouraged to leave. And so there are common sense things we can do to make policing better. Most of the major police organizations know that and support that. Donald Trump's own executive order that put limitations on no knock warrants and chokeholds and the like. This is a false argument. There's nobody in the Senate that was calling for defunding the police. Everybody, every Democrat in the Senate has a record for increasing funding towards local policing. So what we're talking about here is more, not that we didn't have the policy ideas, not that we didn't fight, but we had serious gaps in communicating, communicating authentically that connected with people's heads as well as their hearts and making people understand that we are fighting for them. As I've watched for my 12 years in the Senate, when we get into these scrums and are talking about like tax extenders, it's like boring policy stuff. But I will Never forget Claire McCaskill was sitting next to me at a Senate caucus lunch. I'm new in the Senate. Harry Reid puts on the board this column. The tax extenders we're fighting for and the tax extenders that they were fighting for. And this is the negotiation Harry Reid was talking about. And I could understand in plain English what we were fighting for. It was an expansion, child tax credit, earned income tax credit. I understood everything on our side of the ledger. But I'm again, the worst thing that you often do when you have people perceive you as being really smart is you fail to ask the stupid questions. But here I was in a private moment, I turned to Claire McCaspill and said, Claire, I don't understand what these things are in this gobbledygook. And she goes, oh, Corey, that's allowing corporations to get a bigger tax cut for, you know, when they offshore this and this. And she started, she's this really smart person and had been in the Senate. And I'm like, why doesn't America see this? I looked at her and I go like, they are fighting for the rich, powerful record, profit making corporations to get more advantages. And we're fighting for the average American. Like, why don't people understand that? This is the moral math that has been going on for 25 years, as from the Bush administration all the way to Donald Trump has been getting more and more tax cuts out, putting our country more in financial crisis because Republicans build up debt and deficits. Democrats from Bill Clinton to Obama to even Biden are cutting deficits. Why don't people.
- [38:58]
Tim Miller
Okay, okay, okay. Biden didn't cut any deficits.
- [39:01]
Cory Booker
No. Are you kidding me? I'm sorry.
- [39:04]
Tim Miller
And it was, it was a less. Okay, less of a deficit than Trump did in his last year is not a cut. And it's still going up by a trillion.
- [39:12]
Cory Booker
There was still a deficit defic but he reduced the overall deficit. Donald Trump was a profligate deficit.
- [39:18]
Tim Miller
We're going to have to reduce it a little more. My old Republicans coming out, Corey, My former Republicans coming out pound for pound.
- [39:24]
Cory Booker
President for president who created more jobs, Democratic presidents who created more debt. By far Republican presidents. Who did the stock market perform better under Democrats or Republicans? By far Democratic presidents I could go through. Who's created more shared wealth? Who presided over more empowerment for working class people? This is a real debate. But I will defend the policies of the Clintons, Bidens, Obamas against what two terms of Trump and Bush have shown us in terms of wealth growth in this country.
- [40:00]
Tim Miller
The two of us can filibuster each other for three hours. I had to throw out my whole show map. We're just rolling a bunch of stuff we didn't get to. We got to go rapid fire. A couple fun things at the end. I'll let you go. Okay. I noticed you only went 25 hours on the filibuster and I was thinking about why and I think it's the veganism. Do you think that if you're eating some meat, you could have done 28, 29, 30 hours?
- [40:21]
Cory Booker
How can you say that when everybody from Tom Brady to Olympic power lifters are vegans? Tom Brady in season eats a vegan diet like this is not even controversial anymore.
- [40:30]
Tim Miller
But we're in crawfish season here. Are you allowed to have a crawfish on the vegan diet? How does that work? Does that count to bugs count?
- [40:36]
Cory Booker
I'm not pushing my diet choices on everybody, but all the evidence says, I mean we eat so much more highly processed meats and more than our ancestors. We have chronic disease that has run amok on our country. Our diets are killing ourselves. Even people like me who are junk food vegans and are eating processed foods. We need to have a larger conversation about why our nation has the need for so much health care. One out of every three dollars almost in government is for health. Majority of that is for chronic diseases that are preventable and diet related. So we have a lot of work to do about like why we have half of our population now that's diabetic or pre diabetic. We have serious health problems. I am trying to be the change I want to see in the world. But whether you're vegan or paleo or what have you, unhealthy diets are unhealthy diets and they're across the board. But to Prep for my 25 hours. I prepped like I was back in my athletic days prepping for an athletic competition.
- [41:31]
Tim Miller
So I wanted to ask you, what about the workout side of things? You know, we have to watch rfk, you know, get shirtless and do his bench presses. I noticed you're kind of huffing and puffing sometimes on those TikTok selfies. Like, what are you. Are we running? Like, what's our workout routine to prep for the filibuster?
- [41:48]
Cory Booker
You know, I started. It's now been almost a year, but I was able to do 770 days in a row of running every day. And it had its incredible benefits to my health. It had some bad benefits. Like, I got plantar fasciitis, of all things.
- [42:01]
Tim Miller
Yeah, knees. How are the knees doing? We're getting old.
- [42:03]
Cory Booker
Knees are fine. That was not an issue. It was weirdly, plantar fasciitis that finally really slowed me down. But look, we know that you get vibrant by eating right and exercising, especially when you're like me. You're younger than I am. Especially when you're a middle aged African American male. We have some of the worst health outcomes, U.S. and Native American men, Latino men, probably in there, too. Worst health outcomes in America. I know that I have to. If I want to be around for a while longer in this fight, I got to take care of myself.
- [42:33]
Tim Miller
So you're not benching anymore is what you're saying? No max bench.
- [42:36]
Cory Booker
Well, I am definitely benching.
- [42:37]
Tim Miller
Okay, why do I have a max? We got a max bench.
- [42:40]
Cory Booker
I just got this new machine that's being delivered this week, and I'm dying to just get on it because I'm this gamification. This is why things like these new bikes that have those computer screens on them are so good, because they get into your mind. So I got a tonal. Have you ever heard of this?
- [42:55]
Tim Miller
Okay, I've heard of it. I haven't. Haven't done it.
- [42:58]
Cory Booker
Yeah, I dropped a large part of my Senate salary on it, but LeBron James talks about it. It's basically resistance training, but they measure everything. It seems really incredible. One of my former chief of staff turned me onto it, and I'm excited to compete against him and others on this new machine because resistance training for testosterone, for joint strength, everything.
- [43:21]
Tim Miller
We're low on sperm according to rfk. You gotta get your testosterone up. We have a sperm shortage.
- [43:26]
Cory Booker
Yeah, well, my family and my mom is rooting for me still hoping that I become a dad. So I gotta think about that. I gotta think about that.
- [43:34]
Tim Miller
Okay, last thing. Last thing. Do you have your phone on you right now?
- [43:36]
Cory Booker
Your phone somewhere around here? Yeah, I have my phone right here in front of me.
- [43:39]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Can you pull that up? Do you have Twitter on there? You got Twitter on there?
- [43:42]
Cory Booker
I do have Twitter on there.
- [43:44]
Tim Miller
Okay, I want you to open up.
- [43:45]
Cory Booker
How ticked off I am that I do not follow Elon Musk. But every time I open up my Twitter, which I do far less, Instagram is my platform of preference. It goes right to a tweet by Elon Musk.
- [43:58]
Tim Miller
I'm also ticked off about that, but I'm ticked off about that, but I'm also ticked off about my guest. I want you to pull up your Twitter right now. I want you to look at timodc now. Remember I used to be a Republican rapid response guy back when you were running for Senate. You know, I had some thoughts about some of the things you were doing. I think you got upset at me.
- [44:14]
Cory Booker
Did I really?
- [44:15]
Tim Miller
You blocked me. You blocked me on Twitter 11 years ago. 11 years ago. I've been trying to get unblocked for 11 years. I messaged your staff. Nothing. Are you serious? I tweeted at you. I tweeted Cory Booker. Please unblock me. I'm an undecided voter. I could not make it happen. But we are now live and I want to get it live on YouTube.
- [44:35]
Cory Booker
I am on my Twitter. What am I searching for?
- [44:38]
Tim Miller
Tim O, D, C. Tim O. My parents called me Timo. That was the original T, I, M, O, D, C. That was Tim O, T, C. Yeah.
- [44:47]
Cory Booker
Tim Miller.
- [44:48]
Tim Miller
Tim Miller, that's me. I'm blocked.
- [44:50]
Cory Booker
You're blocked.
- [44:51]
Tim Miller
I'm blocked. I know I'm blocked. I've been blocked for 10 years. I think I was going after you over T bone. I think that's what it was. There was a National Review story back in the day and you blocked me. And it's been a decade long struggle to get back on there to do research for this podcast. I had to use my husband's Twitter to look at, to see your tweets.
- [45:10]
Cory Booker
I cannot, I feel a sense of. This is a redemption moment. I don't know you or for me. One of us is being redeemed right now in this.
- [45:18]
Tim Miller
Both of us. The country. The country needs to come together, Senator. This is a great example.
- [45:23]
Cory Booker
I can't believe I blocked you way.
- [45:25]
Tim Miller
Back when you way back. I was an RNC staffer. It's okay. I was kind of a bitch. I was. I was. I still am. I still am. I'm getting blocked by Magas now is the only thing difference.
- [45:35]
Cory Booker
I can't believe you're now unblocked on my.
- [45:38]
Tim Miller
Thank you, Senator.
- [45:39]
Cory Booker
Yes, that is a. That is really kind of cool. This is a powerful moment. That is. We're friends again. Hold on. I gotta follow you.
- [45:51]
Tim Miller
Yeah, you start DMing me. I can follow. You can start DMing me. That's so exciting. All right, that's. Let me tell you my favorite story.
- [45:58]
Cory Booker
One of my favorite stories.
- [45:59]
Tim Miller
Please. We'll end on that.
- [46:00]
Cory Booker
Back in those days on Twitter, I used to live on Twitter. It did so much back in the good days. Got on it early. Used to tell my constituents, tweet me things, and I'll address them. So I used to respond all the time with two words on it. You know, getting potholes filled in minutes, not like months like it used to. For the previous.
- [46:16]
Tim Miller
Anyway, I remember I get to the.
- [46:18]
Cory Booker
Senate, and I'm still living on Twitter, doing a lot on Twitter, and. But I. One of the things I used to love doing is taking a troll, somebody yelling at me, and just saying, look, I don't agree with what you're saying, but I love you. Never let you pull me so low as to hate you, or I'd say something nice. This guy vehemently attacked me. I said back, saying, hey, respect your right to your own opinion. I wish you the best. I just said something really nice back to him. I'm walking through my front office, and they say, my staff loves. No, no. I love to take the phones when they're taking constituent calls. People don't expect to get their senator. And my staff said, you want to take this? And I got on the phone, it was this guy saying, is this Cory Booker? He goes, I tweeted at you. And I remembered his mean tweet. And my daughter saw your response, and I was calling to apologize. I don't agree with anything you say or do, but I want to apologize for how I spoke to you. And I said, sir, your daughter sounds like she's better than both of us, and I'm so grateful for the apology and for your service. He was a veteran. And I said, but now can I challenge you on one thing? If you'll be so generous that we don't agree on anything. And then I started just telling him all the stuff that we were doing for New Jersey veterans, and he said to me, I didn't know any of that. And before you know it, we have a really great constructive conversation. And so that, to me, was one of my Favorite moments. Because living behind our Twitter feeds and just hurling things at each other just widened the distance and undermined. The truth in America is that we do share a lot of common ground and common cause. And these attentions. Machines competing for our eyes, their corporate models are highlighting our differences and really creating outrage. Machines telling us that we're morally superior than the other side. I tell the story all the time about Van Jones going on. What was it called? Crossfire. And sitting with Newt Gingrich. And Brene Brown has this wonderful thing where she says it's hard to hate up close. So pull people in. And the two of them got together. They don't agree on a lot, but they agree on some things, and they realize they like each other. And they go to the producers and say, hey, let's do a final segment and call it Ceasefire and talk about where we agree. And Republicans and Democrats agree. Producers let them do it. But then they stop them after a handful of shows and said, you can't do this anymore. Ratings are going down. The corporate model does not work.
- [48:33]
Tim Miller
People are turning off ceasefire.
- [48:34]
Cory Booker
Yeah, turning off Ceasefire.
- [48:36]
Tim Miller
Cook it over.
- [48:37]
Cory Booker
Okay.
- [48:37]
Tim Miller
I want Fox instead.
- [48:39]
Cory Booker
Yeah. So, I mean, that's the problem we have, is we all have to work through this. People who only know me through Republican lenses have a certain opinion of me. And I've met these folks in airports, at restaurants, and they're kind of surprised that I'm like, I have some decency about me. And because we create such horrible caricatures of the other side that it makes it almost impossible for us to believe that we have shared humanity and shared dignity and the basis with which to advance our country.
- [49:08]
Tim Miller
Cory Booker, thanks so much. We got to do three hours next time. I got a bunch of other stuff to get to. We'll do it at a protest or something. I appreciate you appreciate all the work been doing. Come back and see us again soon.
- [49:19]
Cory Booker
I look forward to it again. I'm happy that we're. We're Twitter friends.
- [49:22]
Tim Miller
We're back. We're back, baby. We're going to be dming. You never know where this is going to go. You're not turning me vegan. Besides that, you never know. Let's go. I'm not losing my crawfish.
- [49:32]
Cory Booker
I'll tell you what. If you see me causing some good trouble that you think is in any way worthy, let's call that an admission on your part and an agreement that we will meet at some vegan place and share, like a vegan, you know, donut or. Or something. Like that. I bet you I can make you like some a vegan place.
- [49:53]
Tim Miller
That's a deal. I look forward to seeing the good trouble. Everybody else will see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Pe.
- [50:11]
C
To the Rhythm of life I was walking on by I fell straight down my shoes were untied I don't want to get up cracking something down here I've got to get down on now I simply just trying to hear what's trying to maybe if I don't try so hard Whoa understand why I felt so maybe there's no back up you gotta go down if you're a little but for now what to do if you take a if you take a t if you take a spell There's a lesson to learn better cop to refill well if you stumble if your balance you lose to tie up your shoes well if you don't fall if you take us down There is a lesson to learn and call to refill well if you stumble if your balance you lose the road lies in.
- [52:34]
Tim Miller
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.