Tim Miller (4:19)

I love this. You're quoting Lincoln. It all sounds nice, but I need a little emo beto to help get me there. Okay. I need to figure it because let's just be real. I mean, you were out there last year when we talked. Last time it was August, I think it was convention. Last time we had a podcast was during the Democratic convention. And you're at like the University of North Texas, you know, meeting with students, you're on the road, you're talking to me about, you know, your listening habits, all those hours on the highway, you know, driving across Texas, and then the election happens. Texas goes backwards for the first time in a while, right? Like first time in a few cycles. It trended back towards the Republicans at the presidential and Senate level. And, like, you're back out there in Denton. I mean, did you take a week and go, fuck this. This is a waste of time? Like, why am I even doing this? Like, what is the gonna. I'm gonna move to Spain with my kid and, like, family and, like, we'll just call it none of that. You didn't have that for a minute.

Beto O'Rourke (5:18)

No, I didn't, and I don't think you do. And I listen to your show. I don't think anyone that you have on the show feels that way.

Tim Miller (5:24)

I have some bad afternoons, all right? I gotta. I gotta set up. I gotta show up here at 9am to tape this thing every day. But sometimes in the afternoon, I'm under the covers, okay? I'm reading a sad book, all right? Sometimes I don't wanna do it right.

Beto O'Rourke (5:37)

We all have our moments, for sure. But. But I think when. When push comes to shove, we. We all show up. We. We stand up to be counted. We all know this is a moment of truth and we cannot be found wanting. Every generation before ours has somehow pulled this off. You know, we're 249 years into this experiment, and, man, we have been tested, you know, from. From the very start, the revolution. And breaking away from the most powerful empire on the planet at the time. You know, you get to the Courthouse in app. 1865, hundreds of thousands of people over many years gave their lives to end the institution of slavery and to bind the country back together. You have, you know, people from New Orleans and El Paso enlisting in World War II and landing on those beaches in June of 44 in Normandy to fight fascism half a world away, to defend democracy here at home. 64 and 65, civil rights and voting rights. So now it comes down to us. And we are facing the greatest test, not of our generation or of our time, but probably of any time in this country's history, maybe going back to the Civil War. And so when you look at it that way, you are so fucking lucky to be alive right now and to have the chance to come through. There have been precious few generations. There's this great speech that LBJ gives in 65 after John Lewis has just been beaten nearly to death crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge. Eight days later, Johnson convenes this joint session of Congress, and he says, as it was at Lexington and Concord, as it was at Appomattox, so it is today, these brave Americans willing to lay down their lives so that we can realize our Promise to one another. That's us, man. And I'm not saying you or I are. John Lewis.

Tim Miller (7:23)

We never had an opponent this stupid, though. I mean, say what you want about Robert E. Lee, but he was a worthy adversary. I mean, you got to wake. It's like, really, we're going back to this like the stupidest American after he's been convicted of crimes. And like the people of Texas look at that and say, yeah, we're going to give him more votes than we did the last time. I mean, that's a little dispiriting.

Beto O'Rourke (7:46)

No, you can look at the opposition and be dumbfounded because they are so incompetent, they are so corrupt, they are so craven. They're surrounded by these quislings who are making their separate pieces and deals with the administration, whether it's law, law firms or universities, or, you know, the, the power brokers and the billionaires. But you also have to look at, at us. And I don't mean just Democrats, but, yes, especially Democrats, but the pro democracy, pro rule of law, pro U.S. constitution side, you know, what, what was on offer for voters in 2024? If, if ever, and I know every election is a change election, but if ever people wanted and were screaming for change, it was in 2024. And there was one side that offered change. But if you knew nothing else and if you could be forgiven for being so busy because you're working so hard and you're raising your kids and you're taking care of your folks and you fuck politics, I just don't pay attention. All I know is that guy represents change and those folks look like more of the same. And this country is not working for me right now. And I don't need any more of the same. I need some fucking change in my life. And so I think we have to look in the mirror and accept where we have failed. And we failed. We had one job, one job in 2024, and we failed. And that's not on Donald Trump. It's not on the voters who voted for Donald Trump. It's on those who are offering the alternative. And so we have to learn from that. Right? And we have to both stop him and then we have to overcome him and replace him in elections peacefully, democratically and nonviolently with the change that people are looking for in this country.

Tim Miller (9:24)

When I look back, the more I've thought about it, we have, what, five months distance from it and look back at our failings and I think maybe something where you could provide some, some insight when you said they're like, let's look at what was on offer from this side from the Democrats for the anti Trump, whatever you want to call it. And I think the thing that it really comes down to, when I was talking to James Carville before the election and I was like, everybody knew it was on his whiteboard in the Clinton campaign. You know, change was more of the same. It's the economy, stupid. Don't forget health. What was on Kamala's whiteboard? And I asked him that, like, what's on her? What's on this campaign's whiteboard? And I don't, this isn't meant to be an attack on her or whatever. It's just like, let's just be honest about it. And he couldn't answer that question. It was like a couple days before the election. And like that kept sticking in my head. I'm like, I'm worried about this. Like that's something that worried me. And all the other stupid stuff. Like she didn't go on Joe Rogan. We didn't do this, we didn't do that. Like to me it's like that, right? And I feel like your 2018 campaign for, you know, and it didn't, wasn't successful, obviously, but it gained, it did way better than Democrats had in the past. I feel like people knew what you were offering. You know, I feel like people could describe what Beto was offering. And I don't know if the Democrats have really had a presidential campaign that did that successfully since 2008, honestly. But my question is like, what is it though? I think we're still kind of in a time for searching on that front. You know, you're seeing a little bit of it from aoc. Ezra Klein's out there talking about abundance. I don't know, what is it? What do you think it is?

Beto O'Rourke (10:58)

I think the only way you find it is by being with people. When I ran for Congress, long shot bid in 2012 against eight term incumbent, wildly outspent, it was a five person primary and I won it without a runoff. And I won it by knocking on doors. And the knocking doors. It's not just the numbers and it's not just the effort and it's not just that voter meeting you and learning your name. It's also learning from them what's most important to them. No, no pollster, no consultant group, no focus group would have told me what a veteran told me. I knocked on his door, he said, I can't get into the va. They told me to call Back next year. And this was in January of 2012 for his PTSD treatment. This. This guy served us in Vietnam, came back damaged and wounded, now needs help, and we were absolutely failing on our end of the bargain. Next door, a similar story. You know, next door, it's a widow telling me about her husband who took his own life. I made fixing the VA the number one issue. And not everyone in El Paso is a veteran. Not everyone in El Paso has a family member who's a veteran. But people care about veterans. I cared about veterans, and I think people more broadly understood, man, if this guy is going to fight this hard for these people who've gotten this by their government, I know he's going to fight for me on the issue that I care about. And we won that race. When I ran for city council, I was knocking in on the west side and first door, I've given my pitch, and the woman says, that's great, Beto, but there's this canyon behind my house, Ressler Canyon. They're about to develop it. I don't want it developed. Second house tells me the same thing. The third house, I knock on the door and I said, hey, my name is Beto O'Rourke, and. And I'm here to save Wrestler Canyon. You got to listen to people. And that's why these town halls are so important.

Tim Miller (12:43)

Wait a minute. I didn't know you were a nimby, Beto. I thought I finally, finally found my first. And we're crossways with each other for the first time in two interviews. I didn't know you were a nimby. Okay, we'll have to talk about that.

Beto O'Rourke (12:55)

Let me finish this point, though. These town halls that we're holding, I just think are fundamental, you know, Democracy. What the fuck does it mean? Democracy is people, and bringing people together in this deeply divided, isolated, polarized digital age. We're just consumed by our devices and the feeds that we're getting on them. That is some profoundly powerful stuff. And the other power there is that Republican members of Congress right now fear Donald Trump more than they fear anything else. You have to introduce the fear of their constituents and their reelection. And Democrats. Democrats fear being in front of people right now because to the question you just posed, what's the answer? What's the solution? What's. I don't know. What the fuck? How are we going to do this? People are going to show up, they're going to be mad, they're going to want me to fight back against Trump. I'm just one member of Congress, I don't want to face that. I think all the more reason that you go in front of your constituents, because no matter how brilliant you are, you don't have all the answers. And if you really believe in this democracy, if you really believe in people, you'll bring them together, you'll listen to them, you'll learn from them, and, and you will form common cause and go out and do the work and fight together. So I think bringing people together, having these town halls is absolutely essential. And I think from that, Tim, we are going to learn and hear and even know the language, the exact words that people are feeling right now and need to be reflected back in the campaigns that are run in 26 and 28. You don't ever lose your core convictions, your purpose for being and wanting to serve. But that's part of it. The other part of it is just being exquisitely attuned to the people that you want to represent and fight for. And there's no shortcut. You can't hire somebody, you can't spend enough money, you can't put enough time on social media to get there. You got to be there physically with people and hear them out. And so that's why we're doing what we're doing.

Tim Miller (14:54)

So plenty of bad things about Trump, but those stupid rallies he had were his kind of version of town halls, and he was workshopping stuff all the way back to 2015. What do people cheer for? Wasn't the stuff we're cheering for. You know, like that's where a lot of his messaging came from. So there is something to that. I wonder what you're here. I guess I had a, a mini town hall by showing up to Jazz Fest yesterday and having people come up and talk to me. And a woman came and talked to me. She owns a, kind of like a tchotchke shop here in New Orleans. And she's like, I'm fucked because of the China terrorists. Like, I am fucked. Like, I don't even know what I'm going to do. Like, I, you know, so much of the stuff that we source for this small business, it's been around 60 something years, comes from China. She's like, I'd love to get stuff from America, but like, there's just not enough stuff. And do we really want to be making these little tourist tchotchkes in America anyway? Probably not, right? So that was one thing that came up. What are you hearing about or what are your thoughts on that? And also what else are you hearing about?

Beto O'Rourke (15:48)

It reminds Me of. I was in Iowa in 2019 and spending a lot of time with farmers and growers and folks in the ag community. And I visited this one family farm, and the two brothers took me out to this giant, rotting pile of soybeans. And what struck me in listening to them and understanding both just the. The pain and the pride that had been hurt, this is what they do, and they're not able to do it. The economic loss, the threat to their future, being able to hold onto that farm was the fact that it didn't seem like Trump was taking much of a political hit for the hurt that he was doing to them. I listened to the Daily yesterday, and they interviewed another farmer in Iowa who's absolutely getting crushed by these Trump tariffs and the reciprocal Chinese tariffs that I think are at 120% on what she's trying to sell. And it was unclear at the end of the interview whether she held Trump responsible. It kind of gets back to what you and I were talking about earlier. She wanted change. She wants action. She says, I wish Trump would understand what's happening to me right now, but I know he's trying to do something. He's trying to change something. It's amazing the goodwill and the faith that he has engendered. And maybe it's the cult of personality stuff, but it maybe also is just a reflection of how badly broken our institutions, our government, our system, our society is for so many people who are that desperate for change that, like they say, you know what? I'll take the hit on soybeans. Maybe I'll lose the farm. I'll turn a blind eye to the mass deportations and the loss of due process and this absolute attack on the Constitution because this shit has been going on for decades. And Democrats and Republicans both say they're going to do something, and no one ever does. This fucker is doing something, at least. I may not like every part of it, but. But he's doing it. So I think there's that dynamic at these town halls. You know, I hear from people, a veteran in Wichita Falls who stood up and said, hey, Beto, tell me about the 83,000 people that they're going to cut from the VA, most of whom, by the way, are themselves veterans. How is that going to improve wait times or the care or the service that I get? And I don't know if that guy was a Republican or a Democrat. We don't screen for the town halls. You know, another woman stands up, asks about Medicaid. We're already the least insured state in the country. You know, we lead the nation in childhood diabetes deaths. We're at the epicenter of this maternal mortality crisis. If they cut Medicaid further, what is going to happen and who is it going to hurt? So people see the train wreck playing out in real time. They're really concerned about it. They ask these questions. But Tim, they also ask a lot of questions about the Democratic Party. Where are the Democrats? Why aren't they fighting? What's going on here? You know, back when the cr, the government funding debate was taking place and almost every Democratic member of the House but one stood strong and together and Chuck Schumer signaled that he and the Senate Democrats were going to do the same. And then he caved at the end of the day and cowed by whatever pressure he seemed to feel, man, that was, that was like a stake in the heart of so many people who are hurting right now and are being hurt by Trump and want to see somebody fight back. And so I think there's, there's some real disappointment, not just lingering from 2024, but from what is happening or not happening in 2025, and a real hunger for those who will step up and take the fight to Trump.

Tim Miller (19:25)

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Beto O'Rourke (22:26)

Yeah. Two things. One, you got to physically go to where people are. So I mentioned Wichita Falls earlier. It's about an hour 45 minute drive northwest of Dallas. Not easy to get to not particularly close to a big city. And so when we went there, you know, I reached out to the Wichita County Democratic Party, the Wichita County Republican Party, the Republican Women's Study Club, the vf, everybody, the ISD Booster Club. This is a town hall. It's not partisan. I'm not going to drive home a political message. I just want to hear from everybody, come on out. We had 450 people show up. It was for Wichita Falls, for any place that was really significant. And, Tim, a lot of those folks are folks who otherwise have been tuned out or turned off, but gave this thing a chance because it looked and felt different. The other thing, the second point is you got to take it a step further. You've got to show up at the door of that person who didn't cast a ballot in Texas. When I ran for governor in 22,9 million registered ready to go voters in Texas didn't cast a ballot. Abortion, you know, the most obscene, restrictive abortion law in the country, uvalde, you know, 19 kids, two beautiful teachers shot down, murdered. In that year, the most pressing, urgent issues were on the line in that election. Nine million people didn't show up. It's not that they're lazy. It's not that they don't care about those things. It's to your point that there hasn't been the work done to connect with them and to connect the dots about what matters to them in their lives and the people who are running these campaigns and the elections that will decide the outcomes. So we've got to go to where they are, like literally knocking on their doors, which we are doing. We're also showing up when I tell you we train our volunteers, we train them and then we deploy them where there are unregistered, likely Democrats, including on college campuses. Engage with them in conversations, bring them onto the roles. And this is a really important step that I don't know that many others are doing. We then say after we register the person, hey, would you mind if I stayed in touch with you? And it's not going to come from the Democratic Party or even powered by people. It'll just be me, the guy that just registered you. We just met eyeball to eyeball. Can I have your cell phone number? I'm going to text you in 30 days and see if your voter registration card has come in the mail. And I'm going to be your personal voting Sherpa. You have a question about voter ID or voting location or because I'm a partisan organization, if you have A question about the candidates and their values and whether they connect with yours. I am your guy. And so Our more than 1300 volunteers connect with tens of thousands of voters. In that way, we want to continue to grow that program. Will it decide things in 2026? I don't know. Probably not. Will it decide them in 2028? Who knows? But if you don't start building this stuff and stay on it persistently and consistently, it's just going to be the boom and bust cycle that we have lived and died through in Texas for the last 30 years. So you've got to do those two things that you got to go to where people are. Whether it's the town halls or their front doors or the college campus, wherever they are, you've got to be there.

Tim Miller (25:31)

Have you looked into cloning? Like, do we, can we get, can we get a couple hundred betos? I mean, Texas is pretty fucking big, you know, I mean, how many doors can you knock on? You know, you're just, just one guy.

Beto O'Rourke (25:42)

254 counties. It's, it's these, it's these volunteers who show up who are fucking amazing. Full time jobs, you know, taking care of their kids, whatever they've got in their lives. They find the time to go out there in August when it's just sweltering in Houston. Probably not unlike what it's like in New Orleans. And they're at the TSU campus or University of Houston campus and they're out there talking to voters and registering them and staying in touch with them. It's, it's really time consuming. It's not easy, but it is, it is a really powerful connection that they make with these voters. So we have the numbers and we're continuing to grow them. And again, these town halls also are a recruiting field for bringing on new volunteers. We're not going to do it online, right? You got to do it in person. I really think that's the secret. And I think everyone today is enamored of money and technology and those have a place, but they can't. They're just a poor substitute for the real thing. People with people.

Tim Miller (26:41)

We're going to keep that cloning idea though. Just, you know, that might be a technology that helps you be in more places at once. I want to go to the actual news instead of getting in our feelings for the whole podcast. Is there something about the Trump administration? Obviously there's been so much crazy stuff. What has struck you as the thing that's the most alarming, most concerning, most maddening?

Beto O'Rourke (27:04)

I Think just the full frontal assault on the Constitution and the rule of law, all the kind of hand wringing before he took office about whether he would precipitate a constitutional crisis. You know, whether it would happen, what it would look like when, when it did and, and now we are in it. And I think it's, it's really hard. I don't know, Tim, if, if it seems like an abstraction to people. I don't know what folks at the jazz fest were saying about the constitutional crisis that we're in or, you know, if it's too distant from people's lives. I feel like that itself is kind of a patronizing, dickish way to think about our fellow Americans. I fully have faith in them that they get, or soon will get exactly what is happening, that he's disregarding a co equal branch of government, that it is only going to get worse. At some point there will be a clash between Trump and some majority on the United States Supreme Court. And so, you know, you may, or one might feel powerless in that. You know, he's got a 6, 3 majority there. He has both houses of Congress, he has a White House, he has the world's richest man, he has all of the social media platforms. Who the fuck am I to be able to do anything against that? And I just, I've got to invoke Lincoln again. And that idea of public sentiment, you know, 1965, so what is that, 60 years ago? You know, it's not an election year. Folks have been working on voting rights for 75 years. In 1890, the Congress had a Voting Rights act before it, and the pro democracy party at the time, which was the Republicans, fucked it up. They had the House, they had the Senate, they passed it in the House, it died on the horns of a filibuster in the Senate. And the President at the other time was like, you know what? I've got more important battles to fight. Fuck this. So for 75 years, for 75 fucking years, you disenfranchised and basically de citizenized so many millions of our FELLOW Americans in 1965. That march by John Lewis so galvanized the country, it was this catalytic shock to the conscience. And within eight days, LBJ is able to bring the country together. And by that summer, he passes the Voting Rights Act. 75 years in the making creates the first true multiracial democracy in American history. More recently, in 2018, you had family separation. It was this, quote unquote, zero tolerance policy by the first Trump administration. You make it 2,000 miles to this country at our border with your baby. And right when you get to what you thought would be your salvation, that child is literally ripped from your arms. You're deported back to Honduras, and that kid is placed in foster care in America. People rose up. We had this event in Tornio, Texas. Congresswoman Veronica Escobar and myself and others helped to organize that. One in a thousand people came from around the country. That was on, I believe, June 18, Father's Day of 2018. That next week, Trump rescinds the family separation policy. It wasn't just because of the protest in Tornillo, but that protest and others, and the influence on public opinion and the sentiment of the country. He just could not withstand that. So when I mentioned these town halls or these rallies, you know, I think some people dismiss them as virtue signaling or empty gestures or I'm glad that made you feel good, Beto. But what the fuck does that do? It actually does something. It begins to shape how other people see what is happening. And we don't have control of Fox News. We don't have control of the manosphere. We don't have control of a lot of the levers of power. But we do have one another. And if we do everything we can with what we have where we are, I am confident that we are going to come through. It won't be easy. It may take us a while. It's not going to be Democrats. It's got to be the broadest possible coalition. But if we commit to it and if we continue to try, I'm confident we're going to get there.

Tim Miller (31:04)

I want to talk about the immigration side of things and whether there's a catalytic opportunity for that now, because the picture you painted of the child separation thing is so powerful. And we're here in this moment right now where we're sending these people to El Salvador. And I agree with you. The fact that people finally did speak up against this, and both on the legal side, but also in protests in the media and Democratic politicians, finally, I think has slowed down what they were planning on doing with El Salvador. I think that there's no doubt about that. There were more planes that were supposed to be going to El Salvador and that stopped. And yet there's still a couple hundred people that are there. Maybe some of them are really bad dudes. We don't know. It seems pretty certain that at least a couple of them are not, you know, such as. The one that I keep bringing up is the young man, Andre who There's like a New York Post article on him yesterday. I don't know if you saw this where it was like exclusive. Andre tried to come into the country once and he was deported. Then he tried to come into the country again and I was like, okay. And then it was like a picture of him and he is, he's holding a giant stuffy teddy bear and he's sitting under a rainbow arch of balloons. And I'm like, I don't know, maybe they're fucking gang bangers out there cuddling teddy bears underneath a rainbow balloon arch. Maybe, I don't know, maybe there's one gang banger in the world that is a rapist who also loves to cuddle teddy bears. Seems pretty fucking unlikely though. And they haven't given us any evidence. And I do wonder if you think that this is something that people can be catalyzed on.

Beto O'Rourke (32:50)

I do. And it's all the more impressive because of the way that this has been set up. Should you stand with any of these purported gang bangers or terrorists, then the Trump administration and Marco Rubio has done this, will say to the American public, well, whose side is Tim on? Is, Is he on the side of the American families who have borne the brunt of these rapists and criminals and killers and animals? That's the language that they use. Or is he on? Is he on your side? And, and so the fact that so many people have been able to get past that false frame and say, you know what? Who the fuck knows? Because we don't know. Because you have shared no information with the public. There's been no due process, there's been no constitutional protection that allows somebody to defend themselves and allows the public to understand the details of the alleged crime, we just don't know. And furthermore, when you were able to bridge what is happening to that young man or to Kilmar Abrego Garcia, or we just learned today about a young man named Christian who was brought here as a child. And we now find, thanks to one of these great federal judges, that he's also been wrongfully deported. Wrongfully deported. And there was a standing court order that said explicitly, you cannot deport this guy. And the administration did it anyhow.

Tim Miller (34:09)

And in this case, it's just also worth just mentioning in this case in particular, because I've been meaning to bring it up. The guy, I guess, was arrested for possession of cocaine. I think we just have to be clear eyed about this. I don't know. And there are a bunch of guys in the manosphere who voted for Trump who probably used cocaine like I bet Joe Rogan's done some cocaine. Theo Vaughn certainly done some cocaine. Like, do we want the fucking punishment for cocaine use to be being sent to a foreign torture prison?

Beto O'Rourke (34:36)

Life imprisonment, put away.

Tim Miller (34:38)

Yeah, life imprisonment with no access to a lawyer. Is that what we want for the country? Because. Okay, I don't know. I think that some of the listeners to the Theo Vaughan podcast are probably, should probably be pretty worried about who's going to be banging down their door tomorrow.

Beto O'Rourke (34:49)

Yes. And that's. That's, I think, the jump that people are able to make or the bridge that they are seeing, which is, you know, you do this to the least of us, and there's a reason you pick on the tattooed, quote, unquote, gang banger, or there's a reason you pick on the trans person, or there's a reason that you pick on this vulnerable or marginalized member of the society. Because who wants to stand next to them? Who wants. They're unpopular. Who wants to stand next to them? But people are able to understand that this is the way this shit works. This is how authoritarians build power. They find that group on the margins and they exclude them and they make them the scapegoat. And then they take the next group, and then they take the next group, and pretty soon they come for you. And what's amazing you mentioned just like the bizarre blundering behavior of Donald Trump personally and the administration is that they say this shit out loud. I'm going to go after the homegrown ones next. What does that mean? It means you were born here. You are a US Citizen under the Constitution, and any interpretation of the law has. And you, too, are vulnerable to deportation without due process to a hellhole prison, the largest on the planet, which you will go into and from which you will never, ever emerge. We have to make sure that every American understands that whether you voted for Trump or not, whether you would vote for him again if he somehow were able to run again, you've got to know just what's on the line. And I just. I know you may think I'm naive, Tim, but I just think if people in America know the truth, I believe in them, they're going to do the right thing. I mentioned every test we've come through before. Look, it took us a long fucking time to mount the defense and then the offense against fascism in the 1930s and the 1940s. It took us a long fucking time to deal with slavery, a long fucking time to deal with citizenship, civil rights, and voting rights from the end of the 19th century up until 1964 and 1965. But at every turn, we came through. And so are we going to be the generation 250 fucking years into this thing that fucks it up and loses it forever? No, it just. It just cannot be. And so, I mean, that's what you asked me earlier, like, do you ever just want to give up and move to Spain? I mean, do I get down sometimes? Absolutely. But, fuck, no, man, I want to be in this fight with every fiber of my being. And I know that there are millions, tens of millions out there who feel the same way that I do. Let's just keep doing what we can. Let's find ways to come together in this fight, and let's never lose hope, because you lose hope, that's exactly what they want you to do. So I am encouraged that those federal judges, and I do think the shaping of public sentiment, is beginning to place a check on the out of control, unlawful Trump administration. But it's not enough. We've got to do more.

Tim Miller (37:39)

I don't think you're naive. I'm just trying to find the doubt. I know there's doubt in there, you know, I'm just trying to find, you know, you're the. I don't know. Did you ever paint your fingernails black back when you're in a band? Like, I'm just trying to find that better somewhere in there.

Beto O'Rourke (37:54)

We went to a movie with a friend last night. I saw Pink Floyd at Pompeii, which was just amazing, right? I'm not a huge Pink Floyd fan. I don't know their catalog, but. But the. The music was just amazing. And it was dark, right? And it was disturbing. And his friend and I were talking about, you know, music that we grew up with, punk rock or the sad, mopey stuff like the Smiths. And I said, you know what? I have a really hard time with sad music because I just. I'll just take that slide all the way through. So, yeah, I mean, all of us deal with darkness. All of us are tempted by despair. All of us have to find ways, though, to overcome it. For me, I don't listen to sad music so much. I get out there and move my body. I hike, I run, I get out there and I'm with people. You know, when I do a town hall or when I spend all day at the University of Texas at El Paso campus registering voters. And as you know, Tim, some people are like, hey, great, I'd love to get registered. And others are like, go yourself. And then Some people just don't respond to the entreaty. Despite all that, and maybe because of all of that. And I'm sweat through my shirt because it's so damn hot here. I feel so good at the end of the day, I am so up. I'm so optimistic. I believe and I know that we can do this. If I stay at home or I'm in my office and I'm online too much and I'm reading the headlines, I'm like, jesus Christ, are we going to make it? Maybe not. So you've got to be with people. I know you're a fan, but Joe Strummer has this line, without people, you're nothing. And it's absolutely true. And for those who mouth the word democracy, democracy is people. And if you're not with the people, you're not going to win this.

Tim Miller (39:38)

I love that. I'm trying to break your unbreakable Beto. I've gotten John Lovett to cry twice on this podcast. It's not going to work for you. I guess none of my tricks are working. You mentioned one thing that you did a substack post on this that I wanted to get to, because you kind of alluded to it during that inspiring filibuster about the Trump 2028 element. And I think what you wrote is important because there is a. You know, I think that there's good reason to look at this as two fucking ways, right? It's like, this is a troll. Don't let him troll you. Don't play into his hand and just ignore it and laugh at him and point and laugh. There's something to be said for that. Like, there's also something to be said for the fact that, like, I don't know, pretty much everything that he said he might do, he's tried to do. And so maybe we should take it pretty seriously. Even though he'll be, you know, 83 years old or however old they'll be. Did I mentioned he's selling the hats now? We can put it up on the YouTube. He's selling fucking 2028 hats now. So, you know, it's not. It's a gag. He's putting it out there.

Beto O'Rourke (40:39)

Yeah. I believe that past behavior is always the best predictor of future performance. At the end of his last term, he literally did everything he could within his power to illegally hold on to that office. Despite the fact that he was obliterated at the polls, despite the fact that his Department of Homeland Security and everybody who had purview over that election said it was the cleanest, the safest, the fairest in American history. And, you know, not only did he incite violence, as we know from the reporting now, he. He also tried to get his generals and the United States military and any other source of power in this country to work at his behest to overturn that election and illegally restore him to power. Who the fuck thinks that he's not going to do the exact same thing at the end of this administration? You know, when the history books are written about us, if we fail this test, the kids in 2100 are just not going to believe their eyes. They're like, wait, hold on a second. So. So this guy during the campaign said he was going to be a dictator on day one, and those motherfuckers elected him anyhow. And then he told them that he was going to seek a third term, and people laughed it off and they said, don't pay attention or that's a distraction. And then he fucking did it. What the fuck were they thinking? You know, this proud 250 year heritage. You guys blew it. So we absolutely have to. And I do take this threat very, very seriously. And to mount the response in 2028 is to fail. It has to be mounted today. And it's why I've been talking about. I know others are as well. And again, why I'm encouraged by what the federal courts are doing. Not all of them, but many of them. Not only are the decisions important, and not only have we been surprised in some cases by the Supreme Court's validation of those decisions, but back to public sentiment, it really begins to shape the story that people tell one another about what is happening in this country at this time. So it is a very, very real threat, and we should take it seriously.

Tim Miller (42:52)

I totally agree that it is a real threat and we should take it seriously. I also think we should point at him and laugh. I think I presented you a false choice. I think that it is important to say, these guys are fucking clowns and you can't let them own you. You know, I had a conversation with David Pakman on YouTube yesterday because he's born in Argentina, and he did this video about how immigration lawyers have told him he probably shouldn't travel abroad. And when I first saw it, I was like, this is a little alarmist. You know, this is like a little we shouldn't. Because I don't want people to be scared. I don't want people to feel like they're in a prison in their country because of this fucking Ass clown. You know, I think that so far he's failing at pretty much everything that he's doing. And so I think it's important to point and laugh at him rather than be scared of him. That said, particularly if you are a straight white person who, like, is a citizen and has enough resources, right, like, you know, somebody or gay white person, frankly, like, I'm not scared of him. I'm going to travel to Europe. Like, if they want to try to detain me, okay, like, we'll see what happens. If I'm the first US Citizen he sends to Sakat, then I know that Beto will be out there fighting for me, but I don't see it happening. But like, on the other hand, if you were born in Argentina, like, if you're here on a green card, if you're here on a work visa, if you're trans, the threat is really serious, right? And so I think we have to be able to hold those thoughts in our head, right? Like, he's an incompetent clown that you should make fun of. And also, like, for certain, for particularly marginalized people, for certain groups of people, like, the threat is really a lot greater now than it's been. And I think that's kind of a hard thing for people to hold in their head at the same time. But I don't know, what do you make of that?

Beto O'Rourke (44:35)

I think you're so right. I mean, you look at the blustering buffoons that rose to power in Europe in the 1930s who. Who were just the butt of everyone's joke. They were. They were criminally clownish. No one took them seriously. No one saw the threat. And. And then they're in power. And you look at other tyrants who wielded power and just were absolutely destructive and incompetent in managing their country, leading to the. The deaths by starvation of millions in Russia for, for example, just to use. Just to use one. So, you know, you write these clowns off at your peril, but there is nothing wrong with. With pointing out just how stupid and dumb and laughably losing they are in everything that they want to do. I mean, the one signal gate scandal after another by Pete Hegseth, the private makeup room before he goes on TV appearances. You know, here we are in Texas. Two kids have died of measles, and it's been two decades since a child lost their life to that virus in America and rfk. What a fucking idiot. A dangerous, deadly one at that. You can go across the board. Sean Duffy, Kristi. Noem they're just. They're all clowns. But to your other point, they are clowns who are causing the deaths and the real pain of our fellow Americans. I mentioned to you, I was at Rice the other day, and one of the students came up and said, beto, so many of my fellow students have had their visas withdrawn. I know you hear about it happening at Columbia and these East Coast. It's happening right here in Texas. Who's going to fight for them? Another young woman came up and said, hey, my parents came here undocumented. I don't know what's going to happen to them. I don't know what's going to happen to me. I don't know if we end up in that hellhole in El Salvador, what's going to happen to me? Again, these town halls and that person being able to tell their story, not just to me, but to every other person, including those as you described, who enjoy tremendous privilege in this country. And in the long line of people who will be targeted, attacked, and, you know, and terrible things done to them, they're probably the last on the list. But the last on the list is hearing about the people who are first in line and are bearing the brunt of it right now. And I think that builds solidarity. And from that solidarity, you have real strength. And that's what we need at this moment. So, again, real power in sharing these stories. And you asked about what will catalyze on immigration or any other number of issues. I think it is exactly. It is exactly that. You know, John Lewis crossing the bridge. You know, why did people know about it? The TV cameras were there. They beamed it across the country and around the world. It created so much pressure on Johnson. He had no choice but to move forward. We've got to. And I know, I know we haven't found it yet, and I can't tell you what it looks like, but we have got to find whatever version of that exists. And God bless the people who are out there doing it right now, whether that's Bernie Sanders or AOC or. Or Tim Walls or anybody who's out busting their ass. And maybe a certain path or route doesn't bring us to where we want to be, but at least they have gone out there and tried to figure it out and brought people along during the path. So I think we've all just got to do what we can. That's just the M.O.

Tim Miller (47:49)

Right now, I've mentioned this book before, but for listeners or folks who forgot, there was this book called the Diary of a man in despair, which is a diary of basically the Wall Street Journal Republican of Nazi Germany. Him watching all this happen. And it's just. My main takeaway from it was just how he thought Hitler was a clown. He was totally an uncultured buffoon and a clown. And we don't need to be scared of this. The smart guys will be able to control him. Anyway, people are looking for some Nazi reading over the weekend. I recommend it. You mentioned rfk. I've been trying to get to this. There's so much crazy shit happening. But have you seen the story about the autism registry? This is another thing that's fucking insane. You mentioned the two deaths from measles. But I guess the point of this is that now HHS, they're going to try to backfill some evidence for RFK's crackpot theory that vaccines cause autism. So they're going to create now, I guess a government or they are aspiring to create a government registry of people with autism and get medical record records and stuff to. To support this thesis is essentially what they're. What they're up to.

Beto O'Rourke (48:58)

Yeah, that guy. It's so disgusting to prey upon the families of autistic Americans and offer them and hold out this false hope, whether it's through the registry or. I, I read some headline that he's committed to finding the source of autism, the cause of autism by the end of the year. You know, disregard all the, you know, thousands of studies and scientists and doctors and frankly, parents of autistic children who have devoted their lives to this. You know, just get out of the way. RFK Jr. Is, is on top of this. How cruel and careless to these families who really are struggling, who really want answers, and they deserve them, but they certainly don't deserve this. It is the greatest show of disrespect that I can imagine. And I understand and don't judge people who feel hopeless at what RFK Jr is doing. But finally, you know, we talked about institutions and government and things that were supposed to work for people that failed them. You know, maybe this guy's going to break through because nothing else has worked so far. So, you know, I'm going to. I'm going to give him, you know, every ounce of hope I have. And you just know that that is going to be crushed. At the end of the day, it's what. It's what all of them are doing that, you know, tariffs are going to bring back your jobs in Michigan or Indiana or Ohio, sending people without due process to concentration camps. In El Salvador is going to fix our immigration system. These are all presentations of false hope that people who are understandably desperate, given how badly this country has failed them, are holding onto right now. So we have to show them that not only does this stuff not work, but that there is something better on offer from those who believe in Constitution, rule of law and our democracy, Democrats and the largest possible coalition around them possible.

Tim Miller (50:48)

One last point left. I'm curious if you're hearing anything in particular at this point from people on tariffs, but Trump did an interview with Time magazine. The reality has not punctured the Oval Office yet. But I just want to read from you a couple of things that he said this morning about tariffs or published this morning. We are a department store and we set the price. I meet with the companies and then I set a fair price, what I consider to be a fair price, and they can pay it or they don't have to pay it. They don't have to do business with the United States, but I set a tariff on countries. We're a department store, a giant department store, the biggest department store in history. Everybody wants to come in and take from us. They're going to come in and going to pay a price for taking our treasure, for taking our jobs, for doing all these things. I would wonder, listening to, whether he's ever been in a department store. But I guess we know that he has because a court has adjudicated that he sexually assaulted a woman in a department store. But I don't think he really understands how things work. And I think that there's going to be a lot of pain for people with regards to these tariffs. And I just wonder what you think is a way to talk about this that resonates with people. Because it is complicated. It's so complicated, the president of the United States doesn't even understand how it works, apparently.

Beto O'Rourke (52:00)

Yeah. And, and I gotta say, it doesn't help when, you know, Democrats or those who are opposed to this policy into the deep damage and pain that he is causing to the folks around us kind of equivocate on this or aren't clear about it that these tariffs hurt. They're going to destroy the American economy. The prices that you cared about in 2024 are only going to get higher and higher and higher. Those things that you want for yourself and your kids are just going to be more and more out of reach for you. This is a tax, a massive tax. It's not a fucking department store. It is a tax that you and your family are going to be paying for as long as these tariffs are in place. This is really, really bad. So I think you have to say that, and I think you also have to elevate the voices of people who are being hurt by this in real time. You mentioned the woman at the tchotchke shop in New Orleans. I mean, what does she do next? She's going to go out of business? A soybean farmer in Iowa. What does she do next? She's going to lose that farm and is not going to be able to pass it on to her kids. You know, the folks who can't afford things that they used to be able to depend on. What are they going to do next? As we become more isolated economically and through our alliances around the rest of the world, life in every single way is going to become more expensive. The way we engage with the rest of the world, whether militarily or diplomatically or economically, we're just going to bear a much heavier and more painful brunt because we don't have the rest of the world with us. The fact that Trump single handedly has turned America's back on the planet, has switched sides in a war for democracy in Europe, openly inviting Putin to do exactly what he just did yesterday in the attack on Kyiv that belatedly Trump, who looks so weak, saying, you got to stop this, Vladimir. Oh, please. The fact that he's done that again. I keep thinking about the history books written, you know, generations from now, people just will not be able to believe their eyes. There's just no way this happened. The most powerful country that has ever existed in the history of this world just destroyed itself, and the people let it happen. Now that's one version of the story. If we don't get it right, we just can't allow it to happen. Deep, deep damage is being done every single day, and it will continue until we stop it.

Tim Miller (54:25)

Amen. I don't even understand how the department store analogy works. We're tariffing their goods. What was China buying from us? The whole. Well, he probably doesn't buy anything for himself. I don't think he understands how commerce works. Okay, Beto, I want to end here. Are you. I don't know, man. It seems like you might have another campaign and you don't sound like you want to pivot to podcasting like a lot of the other politicians out there. I have a lot of former politician competitors in the marketplace now, but you're sounding like, I don't know, you want to go do something. You got, you got any Plans.

Beto O'Rourke (54:56)

I love being out there. I love being with people. Whether I was in politics or had some other career or avocation, it had to be with people. And so, as I mentioned earlier, I'm happiest when I'm holding these town halls, when I'm registering people to vote, when I'm gathering with our volunteers. So whatever form that takes, possibly as a candidate, potentially just continuing to run. Not just continuing to run. It's just an amazing organization, running, powered by people helping, being useful in whatever way I can. I just think every other consideration has to fall by the wayside now for all of us. You know, your country and history are calling, and you have got to show up and give this every single thing you have. I think it's the only way we're going to overcome this. So I just. I just wake up every day trying to just make sure that I stay on that track and remain open to the ways that. That I can help.

Tim Miller (55:56)

So I'm going to take that as a maybe. Yeah, I'm going to take that as a maybe.

Beto O'Rourke (56:00)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (56:01)

That's good. I like that. That's why. Just be honest about it. I don't. Who the fuck knows? So we don't know. You're a young man. You looking good still, you know, who knows? The future will take care of itself. Do you have a happy song to leave us with? You don't. You're not listening to sad music anymore. You're on the road a lot. Do you have a happy, happy band or happy album? Happy tune?

Beto O'Rourke (56:17)

You know what? I just put on Bob Dylan's new Morning last night, and that got me to a really, really, really good place, that whole album, including the song New Morning or the man in Me. Yeah, I love that one.

Tim Miller (56:32)

Man. Amazing Lebowski.

Beto O'Rourke (56:33)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (56:34)

When he's drifting.

Beto O'Rourke (56:35)

Drifting on the rug. Right.

Tim Miller (56:37)

Yeah, I might need to do that and just drift. Drift off into a dream space for a little while this weekend before. Before we get back into the fight on Monday. Beto, man, I really appreciate you. Will you come back and do it again soon?

Beto O'Rourke (56:47)

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Tim Miller (56:49)

And keep your supposed. For what's happening out there. Oh, wait, actually, I do. No, I have one more last thing.

Beto O'Rourke (56:53)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (56:54)

On your substack, you've been doing three things that people can do or something like that I don't have in front of me, but you have a title, like three things you can do this week or something like that.

Beto O'Rourke (57:02)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Miller (57:03)

Give us three things we can do this week.

Beto O'Rourke (57:06)

So number one, the ACLU we talked about kind of the bulwark that the federal courts have become for our country. The reason these cases are making it to these courts are the attorneys, many of them with the aclu, who are bringing them to public attention and to trial. So the ACLU, which is operating in all 50 states, get behind them. Locally, on the border, there's an organization called Las Americas. They're the ones who engage with many of these migrant families, mixed immigration status families, folks who live in our neighborhoods, who are under attack by Trump right now. And again, if we fail to stand up for the least of us right now, they will come for the rest of us pretty soon. So Las Americas is a great organization. And. And the last one, if you're in the North Texas area, come join us in Denton on Saturday. We'll be there at 4 at Anderson's Brewery. And all comers welcome, Republican, Democrat, Independent. And everyone gets a shot at the microphone. So come be part of it. It's really something special when you see people come together this way and it'll give you some hope. So I hope to see people out this weekend.

Tim Miller (58:13)

That's better. O'Rourke, I appreciate you, brother. We'll be talking to you soon.

Beto O'Rourke (58:16)

Adios.

Tim Miller (58:17)

Everybody else will be back on Monday with Bill Kristol. Peace.

C (58:26)

And ask for compensation. There's a little he would ask. Take a woman like you to get through to the man in this storm Clouds are raging all around my door I think to myself I might not take it anymore Take a woman like your kind to find the man in.

Tim Miller (59:03)

Me.

C (59:06)

But oh what a wonderful feeling Just to know that you are near it sets my heart a reeling from my toes up to my ear.

Tim Miller (59:33)

The.

C (59:34)

Man in me will hide sometimes to keep from being seen but that's just because he doesn't wanna turn into some machine Take a woman like you to get through the man in.

Tim Miller (59:57)

LA The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.