S2 Ep1030: Bill Kristol: Creepy and Wrong

Summary

Summary of The Bulwark Podcast - S2 Ep1030: Bill Kristol: Creepy and Wrong

In Episode 1030 of The Bulwark Podcast, released on April 28, 2025, host Tim Miller engages in a comprehensive discussion with Bill Kristol, Editor at Large of The Bulwark, covering a range of pressing political and economic topics. The conversation delves into international elections, domestic political sentiment, economic challenges, immigration policies, the interplay between the Trump administration and the judiciary, and the influence of tech elites in shaping political landscapes. Below is a detailed summary of the episode, segmented into key discussion areas, each underscored by notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Canadian Election Polls and International Implications

The episode opens with a discussion about the ongoing Canadian elections, where voters are deciding between interim Prime Minister Mark Carney and Conservative Party leader Pierre Poilievre. Tim Miller notes the fluctuating dynamics, highlighting that initial predictions favored Poilievre until a trade war influenced voter sentiment.

Notable Quote:

Bill Kristol [03:07]: "There's something kind of wonderful about Trump electing a Liberal up north in Canada, having picked this pointless fight with them and with Trudeau in particular."

Kristol speculates that Trump's antagonistic stance may inadvertently benefit Canadian Liberals by destabilizing Conservative prospects. He emphasizes the volatility of political forecasts, stating:

"Politics is a motion picture, if you want to think of it this way, not a snapshot."

2. Trump's Approval Ratings and Congressional Behavior

Shifting focus to the United States, Miller presents recent polls indicating President Trump's declining job approval ratings, citing figures such as CNN's 41% approval and The New York Times Siena poll showing 42% approval versus 54% disapproval.

Notable Quote:

Bill Kristol [06:35]: "Public sentiment is maybe even more powerful than it once was."

Kristol agrees that while polls are not definitive predictors, they reflect public sentiment that can influence congressional actions and the behavior of key stakeholders like business leaders and university presidents. He warns against relying solely on polls but acknowledges their significance in shaping democratic processes.

3. Economic Policies: Tariffs and Market Realities

The conversation progresses to economic issues, particularly Trump's tariff policies and their repercussions on supply chains and consumer prices. Miller references a Seattle Times story about empty ports and escalating prices, linking these to tariff-induced uncertainties.

Notable Quote:

Bill Kristol [10:08]: "Reality blurs over into perception, obviously. So on immigration, I mean, the kind of incredible Overreach of his immigration policies is a reality that people are seeing and don't like."

Kristol underscores the tangible impacts of economic policies, noting that both inflation and potential recession are significant realities affecting public perception and overall economic health.

4. Immigration Policies and Human Rights Concerns

A critical segment addresses the Trump administration's aggressive immigration enforcement, highlighting cases where US citizen children were deported to Honduras. Miller expresses frustration over the inhumane treatment and lack of due process in these deportations.

Notable Quote:

Bill Kristol [16:45]: "It's not just a matter of optics, but it is also not what people want their government to be doing unless they need to do it because they're seizing some dangerous criminal or something."

Kristol criticizes the administration's methods, emphasizing the need for respectful and lawful treatment of individuals, especially minors and those with familial ties to the United States.

5. Trump Administration vs. the Judiciary

The discussion delves into the contentious relationship between the Trump administration and the judiciary, particularly focusing on legal battles surrounding immigration policies and other executive actions.

Notable Quote:

Bill Kristol [22:04]: "He thinks that the court shouldn't be involved. They just think they should have the Right. To run the entire immigration policy, enforce the Alien Enemies act without anyone having any other say and without any due process."

Kristol highlights Ryan Goodman's analysis, noting that the administration's disregard for judicial oversight is likely to erode trust in the legal system and predispose courts to be more skeptical of government actions in the future.

6. Influence of Tech Elites and Political Hubris

Miller brings attention to an Atlantic article discussing private chats among tech magnates and Trump officials, suggesting that these interactions played a pivotal role in Trump's rise and the subsequent policy directions.

Notable Quote:

Bill Kristol [34:49]: "They really just couldn't resist or didn't want to resist, pushing the envelope and showing real disdain for the courts."

Kristol critiques the hubris displayed by both Trump and the tech elites, arguing that their overconfidence in manipulating economic policies without regard for market realities ultimately backfired, leading to economic instability and disenchantment among various voter segments.

7. Democratic Strategies for Senate Elections

A significant portion of the episode is devoted to analyzing Democratic strategies for upcoming Senate races. Miller references Matt Iglesias' article, which underscores the challenges Democrats face in swing states and the necessity for strategic candidate recruitment and voter engagement.

Notable Quote:

Bill Kristol [40:33]: "They do need to have some actual goals beyond, you know, putting up a half dozen guys or whatever. And there's really not that much organization of or planning for getting into other seats."

Kristol advocates for a dual approach: lowering Trump's approval ratings and recruiting strong, locally resonant candidates. He emphasizes that driving down Trump's numbers is crucial for Democratic success in off-year elections, mirroring strategies from past electoral successes.

8. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

In the concluding segments, Miller and Kristol recap their discussions, touching upon the importance of actionable strategies over passive resistance. They reiterate the need for Democrats to focus on concrete goals and effective campaigning to counterbalance Trump's political influence.

Notable Quote:

Tim Miller [45:04]: "But also biography matters. I mean, RAHM recruited in 06, but also in 2018. No one recruited anyone in 2018."

Kristol concurs, highlighting that candidate biographies and personal narratives play a pivotal role in swaying voter preferences, especially in closely contested regions.

The episode wraps up with a brief, inspirational exchange, encouraging listeners to stay engaged and proactive in the political process.

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Overall Insights and Conclusions:

The Bulwark Podcast Episode 1030 offers a nuanced exploration of the intersecting dynamics of international elections, domestic political sentiment, economic policies, and immigration enforcement under the Trump administration. Bill Kristol articulates concerns over policy overreach, economic mismanagement, and the erosion of judicial integrity, while advocating for strategic Democratic responses to upcoming electoral challenges. The conversation underscores the complexity of modern political landscapes, the tangible impacts of policy decisions on everyday lives, and the imperative for informed and proactive political engagement.

Key Takeaways:

• Public Sentiment Matters: While not absolute predictors, approval ratings reflect broader public sentiment that can influence legislative and executive actions.

• Economic Policies Have Real-World Impacts: Tariffs and trade wars disrupt supply chains, inflate consumer prices, and can lead to economic instability.

• Immigration Enforcement Requires Due Process: Aggressive deportation policies, especially involving minors, undermine human rights and erode trust in government institutions.

• Judiciary Relationships are Crucial: Respectful and lawful interactions between the executive branch and the judiciary are essential for maintaining legal integrity and public trust.

• Tech Elites' Influence is Double-Edged: While leveraging tech connections can aid political campaigns, overconfidence and hubris can result in counterproductive policies.

• Strategic Democratic Planning is Essential: Lowering opposition approval ratings and recruiting strong candidates tailored to local electorates are vital for electoral success.

Listeners are encouraged to stay informed and actively participate in the political process, recognizing the multifaceted challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

Transcript

[Bill Kristol]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Hope everyone's doing well. It's great seeing some of y'all had a jazz fest. I was doing my best to chat you up. Also monitoring two under 10 girls. They were having a good time. Many snowballs. We very much enjoyed heim. It's a great set. And if some other folks want to see us live, we got two events coming up. We're going to Chicago May 28 and Nashville May 29. It's been a minute since I've been in either city, so I'm excited. JVL the Chicago events, our biggest venue ever and JBL did not think that we could sell it out. He was very concerned, as is JBL's want. And I told him, no worries, our people will be there. And guess what? You might need to sell your JBL was always right shirt because I was right about this one. And you better get your tickets soon because they're both going to sell out. You go to the bulwark.com events, the block.com events. Let's see in Chicago or Nashville. Lastly, while I'm plugging stuff, FY Pod, which is the Gen Z show I'm doing with Kam Kaske, it's kind of hitting its stride. You know, you have a bumpy start when you're talking to 23 year olds, you know, doing a generational divide. But I think the last few episodes have been great. We have a new YouTube page. We'll put the link in the show notes. Just search for FYpod on YouTube. Manny, Fidel this week was awesome. We made him and Cam apologize to Pete Buttigieg for not recognizing his game in the past. And we get into a lot of other fun stuff. So I hope you guys enjoy that. All right, today's show, we've got terrible Trump polls, election in Canada, bunch of other stuff. And it's Monday, so I'm here with editor at large Bill Kristol. What's up, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

Nothing much. Well, a lot, I guess. Do you think what's the right answer to that? What's up? Is a better question than how you doing? Which is my standard.

[Tim Miller]

How are you doing?

[Bill Kristol]

Yes, what's up? Which is a very bad question for this moment because people, maybe we've discussed this before. People say I'm doing fine. And then you feel, then they feel bad that, well, but the country's in such bad shape, I'm not really doing fine. But then they don't want to get to a Whole disquisition in answer to how you're doing. What's up is a good. Is a good question.

[Tim Miller]

What's up for you is that you're at the Luigi Mangione Hilton in New York right now. That's what's up for you.

[Bill Kristol]

I am at the New York Hilton, which I've, you know, stayed at occasion. I'm giving a talk here later, so they're putting me up here. But I used to go to board meetings one block from here, so I'm very, very familiar with the entrance to this Hilton. It's slightly weird getting out of a cab last night and walking just around the corner. It's an exact spot where the CEO was gunned down.

[Tim Miller]

Just keep your head on a swivel. All right, Coming in and out.

[Bill Kristol]

Thanks. Thanks for that advice.

[Tim Miller]

I guess. We have tons of Trump stuff to talk about in American news, but just very briefly, voters are going to the polls right now as we speak in Canada. Question about whether to give interim Prime Minister Mark Carney a full four year term or give the Conservative Party and Pierre Poliev a turn at the wheel. It looked like it was going to be all Pierre until the trade war. And man, the polls don't look good for the Conservatives right now. We'll see how things go. Do you have a, do you have a brief thought on what's happening up north?

[Bill Kristol]

No, it would be. And there's something kind of wonderful about Trump electing a Liberal up north in Canada, having picked this pointless fight with them and with Trudeau in particular. He did, I guess. I don't know if Trudeau was going to run anyway. He might have forced Trudeau out of the right. Not forced, but maybe helped induce Trudeau not to run for reelection, but a new face on the Liberal line. I guess he's the favorite. What are you, you following it more closely than I am?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I mean, it's been wild. Just if you just look at kind of the prediction markets, like it went from a, you know, like the, the charts just, like the lines just totally intersect as one is going up and the other is going down. Carney's done quite well and I think it goes a little bit to the 2028. That's why I'm so loath to do hot stove guessing about Democrats. 2028. People are capable of rising to moments or falling. You might not have thought that Mark Carney is basically a technocratic, globalist, boring policy operative, gets kind of thrust into this and did quite well, kind of rallying the animal spirits of the Canadians, the moose spirits of the Canadians, and kind of rose to the moment. Not sure if you would have maybe thought that that would have happened. And it's been pretty tough on Trump. There are some reports about threats related to the bond market. And I mean, really kind of given as good as he's gotten from Trump, at least so far. So, and I think that's kind of the main takeaway. We'll see. I mean, I don't, I do not claim to be the Steve Kornacki of Canada. So, you know, it's possible they'll surprise me tonight.

[Bill Kristol]

But as you say, though, such a good reminder that the idiocy of taking a snapshot of the present and projecting it into the future, three months, let alone three. And what would be in our case, three and three quarter years to an election. I mean, politics is a motion picture, if you want to think of it this way, not a, not a snapshot. And that's a motion picture with a lot of surprises and random events happening and contingencies. Unlike a motion picture, which presumably has a director trying to make it tie it all together. You know, politics can go in any which direction. So I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's a good reminder that plus the immigration issue here, I think in the way that's backfired on Trump are two very useful reminders of not looking at a poll and saying, oh my God, this is what's going to happen, as we said, in a month, let alone a year, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Amen to that. All right, well, speaking of the polls locally, everybody, I guess, decided to do a poll pegged to the 100 day mark, which we're coming up on here this week, and says CNN gave Trump a 41% job approval rating, down 7 points from two months ago. ABC has about 39%, down 6 points from February. New York Times Siena had him at 42% approval, 54% disapproval, with 45% strongly disapproving. So greater strongly disapproved number than total approval. I did a little video on this over the weekend. There's some element of this where I'm like, do I have to care about these polls right now, having just been through what we went through in 2024, and it's kind of like, who cares? That's kind of the one way to look at it. And I understand why people might want to be like, okay, let's focus on the actual policies over the polls. On the other hand, I do think there's an intersection here, and he's not there yet. If the numbers start to get low enough, that is going to change the behavior of people on the Hill, of the businesses that are sucking up to them, colleges at the law firms. It does matter in that sense. So, I don't know. You wrote about it for morning shots this morning. What do you make of the terrible Trump polls?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, similar to you in that I don't like obsessing on polls, especially when you're pulling approval, which is sort of interesting in a vague way, but it's not like polling an election where it might tell you what's going to happen in six weeks or something like that. But it does matter because it does capture public sentiment. Public sentiment, Democracy matters. Maybe it matters too much these days in the sense that people forget they're supposed to lead occasionally and not simply mirror public sentiment. But it is what it is. And public sentiment is maybe even more powerful than it once was, though I guess it's always been pretty powerful. And look, I mean, here's the way to, I think, see that it matters is what would things feel like in politics today at the end of the first hundred days if Trump were at 55% approval or 50% approval, which is not out of the question. Most presidents have been around there. Right.

[Tim Miller]

And honestly, he probably would be there if he just had done nothing. Right, Right. Like if he had just done, you know, or just done like a few little things. You know what I mean?

[Bill Kristol]

Conventional, sort of. Yeah. No, because people kind of. I mean, he got 50% of the vote. What would he think about. It would be this and a few percent of the others who voted against him sort of would still like to see the country do well and therefore maybe to approve of what he's pleasantly surprised. No one seems to have been pleasantly surprised. Some percentage of voters not as small. If you look at those three polls, what are the approvals of 39, 41, 42. So let's just call it 42 to be, you know, I mean, that means what, 7, 8% have been pleasantly, unpleasantly surprised by his job performance. Assuming if you voted for him, you kind of thought you might approve of him. So that's a pretty big number. 8% out of that 50. Deserting him for now doesn't mean they would vote for a Democrat, doesn't mean the one poll had a congressional, the Democrats up 3, and whatever that's worth in the congressional race. So I do think it matters. And it matters because it affects everyone. It affects business leaders, university presidents, judges. They're not supposed to be affected, but of course they are a little bit affected. And members of Congress, the other elected officials we have in America who have not been exactly rising to the occasion. And I think the chances of them rising to the occasion are not, you know, overwhelmingly good, but they're a lot better than they would be if you were at 50 or 55%.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I think that there's just no doubt about all of that. Nobody here is looking for courage from the folks on the Hill at this point. That's a silly thing to wish for at this point, but eventually the practical calculus might become different. And I think that's the question. And I think a lot of this is tied to the economic stuff. And we're going to go deep on the economy in tomorrow's pod. But just the top level you're just seeing, some things from over the weekend I think are worth mentioning, kind of how they intersect with all this. You know, there's this new Seattle Times story about how there are no ships in the port. April isn't even over yet. And kind of in a strange way that the March numbers, I guess, of ships were up. And the theory on that is people are thinking that the tariff uncertainty, people are like trying to get the material into the country as quickly as possible. So we'll see. But a former ship worker gave this great quote to the Seattle Times. Give me a break. There's no container ships. What more do you need? And took a picture of it. I saw Larry Summers was on with, you know, the Trump on the Trump Tech Bro podcast, fighting with those guys. And he basically, he basically said, look, we're a couple weeks away, like mid to late May from consumers being able to see real changes either with regards to some empty shelves or prices going up. Already you're seeing prices going up. If you're a consumer that uses Temu or Shine. It wasn't really me ever, but I've seen some screenshots on the Internet of the, of the prices of those high quality goods coming straight from China to you are going up. So that's like the fundamental element of this, I think, right, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

Right. I mean reality. I mean, another way of saying it is the polls are interesting, but reality is even more important than the polls. And people are driven somewhat by reality, at least even these days. And if we go into a have a combination of inflation and recession, which looks quite possible. Yeah, that matters a lot, I think. I mean, reality blurs over into perception, obviously. So on immigration, I mean, the kind of incredible Overreach of his immigration policies is a reality that people are seeing and don't like, but also they don't like it. The economic side is the most kind of pure reality driven. It is, you know, people really see the prices. They see the cousin gets laid off or something. Some of these other policies, it's a blur between, you know, what they're doing, which has real effects. And incidentally, immigration has real effects on the economy too. The collapse, the cutting off of immigration and deterring of immigration and tourism probably underrated as another downside on the economy. But then also people have the sense of what kind of country are we living in if this kind of stuff is happening?

[Tim Miller]

Well, we've been talking about the travel. Those numbers are already down. That's going to impact. So this is where this stuff does intersect. All the stuff intersects. Right. Like that is going to be reality for people that live, particularly in communities that are powered by tourism. Right. And hospitality like mine. You know, Adrian Kersquillo, our colleague, got a focus group of Latino Trump voters where a lot of them were kind of expressing like unhappiness. He said he was just going to get rid of the bad guys. Now that there's a point of this, it just makes you want to give a deep sigh and be like, you know, did anyone listen? No. I guess it is. It's intersecting there. Ready to win Mother's Day and cement your reputation as the best gift giver in the family, Give the moms in your life an Aura digital picture frame. Preloaded with decades of family photos, Aura Frames was named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter and it's easy to see why. There's unlimited storage so you can add as many photos, videos and funny memes as you can find. And it's so simple to set up. Just plug it in and share away. This is a gift opportunity I've taken advantage of and it's especially good one for that grandmother in your life too, if she is away from the grandkids. In my experience, the more photos, the more candids, the more material, the better for that grandmother. You know, if you've decided to move to a different city and hear some complaints about that from time to time, the Aura Digital picture frame is a great way, in addition to many visits, to keep the mother or grandmother in your life happy. Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best Selling carver mat frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code. Bulwark. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. I want to get to your conversation with Ryan Goodman, which looks kind of bigger picture about Trump versus the courts. But like the one new kind of immigration story was getting a lot of attention over the weekend. That intersects with our life down here in Louisiana is there have been two cases of US citizen children who were deported to Honduras here. One was born in Baton Rouge as a two year old. The other one was a pair of siblings, 4 and 7 year old. They were born outside of New Orleans. Honduran mothers. In the former case, the girl's father was trying to keep the child in the country and filing with the courts and the courts just said essentially like, well no, the mother said she wanted to keep her and like, but you don't know. There was no hearing. They just rushed them out of the country. The lawyer in the case of the four and seven year old was again trying to keep them in the country. One of them I think has an illness and you know, they're concerned about medical treatment here versus in Honduras. So again, you know, it's like the deport rapists is popular. Everyone's for that. Deporting people even honestly more popular than I would like. Deporting people that came in illegally but haven't committed any crimes, deporting people that are born here, children, deporting people that came legally through a refugee status or not deporting people, sending them to a fucking torture prison instead of just deporting them. These things are not that popular. And you're seeing it intersect with the poll numbers. But I know you and Ryan talked about the situation with the Honduran girls. Any other thoughts on that?

[Bill Kristol]

Well, I would also just add to your point, the way in which it is done matters some. So they seem to deported a woman who's married to someone who's in the Coast Guard. She does seem to be undocumented. She came and overstayed, I think and hasn't yet corrected that, though she might have and she might have corrected it. And I think if you're married to an American, maybe it's pretty easy to get, you know, some kind of temporary status. I'm not too sure about that. And they could simply tell her, hey, you need to do this or you we're going to ask you to leave. But they don't do that. They go and seize her from a naval base, kind of amazingly from the house she and her husband and I think child were about to rent. I mean, so she wasn't like in hiding. She wasn't, you know, evading anything. She's a U.S. government property. That's how they found it was they rent her name through some records. And instead of kind of going to her and letting her fix her status or saying, look, I'm sorry, we're getting tough these days, even if you're married to someone serving in the Coast Guard, a little crazy, honestly. But if, even if you're married to someone serving the Coast Guard, you have to leave, leave within a week. She's not going to flee, right? She's married to a guy in the Coast Guard. But no, there's none of that. It's the same with the judge in Milwaukee, which is a ridiculous case. Ryan discussed it at some length on the show we did yesterday, Ryan Goodman. It was really excellent. But again, you can certainly tell her, look, we think this, we've got an indictment on you. You need to come and show up and, and we'll process you. Just like they processed Trump when he showed up, right? There's a photo and all this. They seize her at 8am outside her courthouse and, and Cash Patel and Pam Bondi tweet about it and go on. She, Pam Bondi goes on Fox about it and it's all demonstrative. And I, you know, some of that, maybe, maybe some of the megabase likes that and maybe it deters, I don't know, it has a deterrent effect on other people or something. Shows how tough they are. I think most people look at that and think they've shut down the border. We need to maybe do some things about the people who are the undocumented people who are here in the country, especially if they're not being peaceful and law abiding. But maybe many people would say, I wouldn't, but we have to do something, you know, get rid of some of them, even if they have been peaceful and law abiding, but do it in a civilized way. And this, and that's where the snatching of the students on the street and so forth, wearing the masks, the ICE agents and the, in the masks and so forth. It's, it's just creepy, really. And it's bad. I mean, it's wrong. Also, I want to make clear it's not just a matter of optics, but it is also not what people want their government to be doing unless they need to do it because they're seizing some dangerous criminal or something, you know.

[Tim Miller]

And it feels Un American, to your point, it's just like, why, like what, we're going to seize a woman on a, on a military base? It's like, you're not going to just send her a letter, right? Like, it's all these like, oh, Tim and Bill, the globalists are defending the open borders illegals. And I'm like, no, I just like, can we treat people with respect in a free country? This woman, did she hurt harm anybody? Did she, has she hurt anybody? She's married to somebody that's serving the country. Can we just, if you're really adamant that we have to get this person out of the country, can we just do it in a way that allows them to, to do so? Right? And it's just like, you know, be like, well, Donald Trump got arrested and stuff was like, we did, you know, judges showed a lot of discretion for Donald Trump over the course of his four different indictments. He wasn't held in a prison. We didn't send him to El Salvador. You know, maybe in retrospect. So, you know, that's the whole, that's the thing about this, that angers people. The other thing is it has this whiff of. And obviously it's way more serious than this, but part of the reason it might rub people the wrong way, why it's worth documented, is it has this whiff of like, have you ever lived in a community where like at the end of the month everyone's getting speeding tickets because the cops have a, you know, the cops have a quota, they need to get through, you know, or a parking ticket. It has this whiff of that, right? Where these like mid and low level ice people like, feel like, okay, well, I'm getting in trouble from creepy Stephen Miller because we haven't, you know, nabbed enough people. And it's like, okay, the only person we, that we've identified is this lady on the, on the military base because, you know, we know where she. Right. Like, it does have this element. And I think that is also something that like, people just don't really like, don't really like, you know, that's just not, you know, the kind of relationship that Americans want to have with their government. It's maybe more comfortable in other places. I don't know. Did Ryan have any other thoughts? This is referencing. We do a bill does a bulwark on Sunday on Substack and Ryan's over at Just Security and you did kind of get a more broad update on like the Trump versus the courts fights and anything else of note. From that combo.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, Ryan's so great because he gives you the really good, great kind of overview and then. But he gives you all kinds of fascinating details about various cases. The Wisconsin case, the immigration cases. That's what we focus on. I thought the most interesting part, perhaps the discussion was latter part where I asked him, well, how much does all this have a cumulative effect on the judges? And there's been so much dissembling and deception really and evasion on the part of government lawyers at this point that he does think that's going to have an effect and he thinks it's legitimate that it have an effect. He explained there's a doctrine in normal times you will rely on government witnesses. If there's an FBI affidavit, you kind of assume, for purposes for now, the trial, you don't convict the person, but for charging and for, you know, holding the person, perhaps you assume you don't require eight witnesses to the FBI affidavit itself. Right. You know, it's kind of an infinite regress at that point. You have to have some reliance or assurance that people are telling you the truth, especially officers of the court. He thinks that they don't have, and it's very clear from the judges that they do think they've been deceived in multiple different jurisdictions on multiple different cases. And he does think that that generally will predispose courts all the way up to the Supreme Court. And he thinks we're seeing some of this already not to give the government the benefit of the doubt. And I don't mean that again in some sort of like, oh, that's just judges being cute or something. Judges do have to make actual decisions based on kind of what they think is more likely to be the case, often in terms of these intermediate stages of temporary restraining orders and so forth. And he thinks they're not going to give this administration, and they shouldn't give this administration the benefit of the doubt because of how they've behaved. And again, this is a good example of what you said right at the beginning. If they had been a normal, so to speak, you know, normal Justice Department, pursuing kind of right wing policies, but doing so in an appropriate and respectful of the way that's respectful of the court, they'd be in one place. But they really just couldn't resist or didn't want to resist, pushing the envelope and showing real disdain for the courts. And of course, in this case, they really don't think the court shouldn't be involved. They just think they should have the Right. To run the entire immigration policy, enforce the Alien Enemies act without anyone having any other say and without any due process. They pretty much said that in court. That's got to rub judges the wrong way. And I think it probably rubs a lot of Americans the wrong way.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. This is also true and really should do another legal deep dive soon, because unlike all the DOGE cases.

[Bill Kristol]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

There's something in Lawfare this morning about just all the ways that the government has been lying essentially in their filings about what DOGE is and what its role was in order to protect it from the traditional oversight that federal employees have that would harm its ability to act in some of the broad ways they have. And they've lost a bunch of these cases. It's hard to kind of keep track of all them. But like the Voice of America, you know, shutting down the Voice of America that got. That's on stay now. So I don't know what we're rooting for there. Don't we want them to shut down the Voice of America so Kari Lake can be out of a job and then we can create a new one later? I don't know. Anyway, but like all the great people that work at Voice of America, we don't want to lose their jobs. So. And we talked about this at the time when they were doing all these firings. Like, they're going to lose so many of these cases. Right. And it's going to end up costing more. But I do wonder, I don't know if there was any other kind of bigger picture thoughts that the Ryan had on that side of things.

[Bill Kristol]

Mostly what we've seen so far, temporary restraining orders or permanent injunctions, which is one step more serious. Obviously, it's permanent instead of temporary. We haven't seen much decided on the merits yet at all. And he thinks that's a real question mark. I mean, the administration, the government will make arguments for why they have this discretion to do this. Maybe they didn't do it quite the right way, thus there was a stay. But. And some of these things, like the Alien Enemies act, will actually get to the Supreme Court on the merits, presumably. Can you invoke an act that was passed in 1798, clearly intended for war or for invasion, used only in American history in times of war or invasion. Can you say that we're at war with, in effect, with Venezuela, because there's a Venezuela gang that's. Of Venezuelans, of immigrants from Venezuela who are operating in the US A gang of a thousand people, maybe not a very well Organized gang, actually, it turns out, though pretty brutal at times. Isn't that law enforcement, not alien enemies? I mean, we haven't gotten to that kind of more fundamental question either. So awful lot coming in the Supreme Court. You know, we saw that 7 to 2 decision, that emergency decision a week ago, and that was, he thinks that is indicative of something of the seven of the justices just think we need to send a signal that they cannot just, you know, end run courts and dissemble to courts and, and pretend that they don't have to go through due process in executing their policies.

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk about a couple of stories that are out this morning that I'm lumping together under the headline of Hubris. Just the degree of hubris in both of these stories from the Trump administration and their friends is so astonishing. But ones from the Atlantic, which includes an interview with Trump, ones from Semaphore about these private chat messages that top tech titans and Trump officials have been communicating on for a few years now on the Atlantic story. I'm just going to say out front, I do nothing but praise the Atlantic on here. It's like the official podcast of the Atlantic magazine. We have so many Atlantic guests. But I just tell listeners to probably go ahead and skip this story for their blood pressure. It's about the Trump comeback, something we all lived. I'm pretty familiar with it. I was thinking about losing my breakfast about halfway through it this morning. So I don't want that on any of you. But the takeaway here is, you know, essentially that Trump, Trump says them, I run the country and the world, and it's about how he's having more fun now. You know, just overall, it's almost like this time capsule because the story kind of goes back through, like the election to now. And to me, like, my only positive takeaway from it was just how different things feel now. Like that this, like this Trump comeback story and these guys were all bragging about it. And, you know, they're quoting people that are talking about how Trump bent the whole world over, you know, and they're just all bowing to him. And now it's kind of like I felt like that lasted about a minute. So I don't, I don't know if you had a chance to glance at it, but that was my takeaway.

[Bill Kristol]

I didn't, but I'm, that's why I'm, that's why I'm looking contented and not having come close to having, you know, as you say, not able to eat breakfast. I mean, Trump himself However, still seems to be pretty full of hubris, don't you think? I mean, I think his explanation of the tariff, someone pointed this out. Maybe this is in the bulwark. I can't remember which piece it was. The way he thinks of it is we're running a giant. He's running a giant store, and he sets a fair price.

[Tim Miller]

Now, this was the Time interview. He did this and he said this in that lengthy time interview.

[Bill Kristol]

But then someone commented on it, really captured that part, which I, I skimmed over, but hadn't really thought about it. I mean, what kind of way is that of thinking about economics? Most people think, you know, you've, you're running a store and you set prices, but you have to compete with other stores and you have to get consumers to want to buy things at this price. He thinks that the US Is so powerful, and he is so powerful as president of the US that we just tell people, well, here's the price. Take it or leave. Now, we are powerful and we can sometimes do take it or leave it, right? Because we have so much clout in economics terms and also political and military terms. But basically, he's discovering, I think we're unfortunately discover, as the economy slows down and goes into recession that we can't quite say take it and leave it, and that people can go, auto plants can build their factories elsewhere. We're seeing some of that, right, as opposed to the US So to avoid the insane US Tariffs going both in and out, and we can see that people can choose not to travel to the US they can choose to travel elsewhere, and etc. The laws of economics don't disappear because Trump is hubristic.

[Tim Miller]

I think maybe Trump sees us as a department store, kind of like the only ones he's ever been into. He's the fancy department store in New York. We're like a Bergdorf Goodman and people are going to buy from Bergdorfs no matter what the prices are. And I can sexually assault women in the dressing room of the Bergdorfs if I want because I'm a star and they let me do it. And it's like so moronic the way that he thinks about all this. I mean, it's state management of the economy. I mean, like, really, it's central planning would be another way to put this. Like, I run the store and I get to plan everything, you know, which I know that the Republicans are very happy to call Kamala communist. Like, communist, Kamala is coming in because she's going to raise the top tax rate by 2%. Maybe if she can get it through the Republican Senate. And it's like Trump is now wants to centrally manage the economy like it's a department store and the free market. Republicans on the Hill are like, you know, the most we can get out of them is a grumble to CNN from Don Bacon before he retires.

[Bill Kristol]

Well, maybe the poll changes some of the grumbling to louder complaining. And ultimately, and this is what I say in the morning shots. I mean, does it lead to actions? I mean, does Don Bacon say, I'm not voting for an appropriations bill for an omnibus or CR or full year appropriations bill unless it has aid for Ukraine? And do other four members of the House say that to four senators, say, I'm sorry, we can't be doing some of these things on immigration or on a million other issues, incidentally, obviously tariffs. A case where Congress has literally delegated the power to the President and could take it back. So I don't know. I mean, the grumbling is better than nothing. Yelling would be better than grumbling, and acting would be best of all.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, acting would be nice. We'll see how that goes. We did get a tweet from Grassley over the weekend on the Russia stuff. I maybe went a little hot at the Senator from Iowa, but whatever. You know, he's like, I've seen enough killing of innocent Ukrainian women and children. President Trump, please put the toughest sanctions on Putin. You have to see from clear evidence that he's playing America as a patsy. I guess it's good that he's tweeting that, but it's like, and he's in the Senate, I guess Trump met with Zelensky. There's that kind of striking photo from the Pope's funeral. And so, you know, there's some kind of discussion that Rubio and some others were, I guess, talking with the Ukrainians at a level they hadn't been. So maybe we'll get some change. But, like, they just need 67 votes. Like, they just need 67 votes in the Senate of Grassley is against him. If Grassley wants the toughest sanctions on Putin, like, that would mean that, you know, he just needs to get John Thune and 18 other Republicans. You would think that those people exist if, like, you just gave them truth serum. You know, if it was a secret ballot, you would have the numbers there. So I don't know. That's just an option to Senator Grassley.

[Bill Kristol]

And the way politics works is if you introduce legislation and start debating it, maybe you start off with 57 votes, but maybe people start thinking, gee, this is kind of indefensible, the position I'm now kind of. They're asking me to take on the other side. And you get to 67 votes. Right. Again, it's the dynamics of politics that no one is taking advantage of. Democrats who have much less power, they're better, but they haven't still been doing a great job, I would say, of taking advantage of the sort of dynamic elements of politics. I do think maybe this is unfair. I haven't seen the whole interview, but Schumer, I guess, had an interview, was on TV yesterday, didn't he? And he said something about, I've sent a very strong letter with eight very strong points to Trump. And it really, I mean, it's maybe unfair. Maybe this, this one sentence or two sentences are surrounded by eight minutes of excellence. You know, Schumer saying what they're doing and trying to do. But that sentence or two by itself is not good. Right. He's sending a strong letter. There are 47 Democrats in the Senate. He's the head of. They can do quite a lot more than send a strong letter with eight strong points. I think they could.

[Tim Miller]

And this was the one frustrating point I had with Cory Booker, who I thought was pretty good on Thursday's pod, where we got into a little bit of a back and forth on this, where can't you just pressure these guys directly? And these are your colleagues. You know, I don't know. Like, if you're just, if you're a Democratic senator looking for an idea, I don't know, why don't you just show up to Chuck Grassley's office this morning and say, you know, and say, hey, like, I've got a bill right here that's on it that says we're going to pass the toughest sanctions on Putin. Let's try to. How many Republicans do you think we can get to sign this? Like, start going door to door and again, that's gimmicky. Is it actually going to work? Is it just going to backfire and piss them off? I don't know. I guess my point is the I'm worried about it's going to backfire and piss them off thing. It feels like we're just way past that. Right. It's like these guys aren't going to do anything. So to me, it's like, what's the worst that can happen from that? It, like, feels gimmicky and then nothing happens. Well, nothing's happening now. And you're at least getting attention for it and putting pressure on them.

[Bill Kristol]

As you say, the worst that happens is the status quo. And as they can do it out in the country as well as obviously, as you know, in the Senate office building. That is to say, Cory Booker can go across the river to Pennsylvania in its neighboring state there from New Jersey and go see Dave McCormick or go do a town hall in Pennsylvania and say that you have a senator who's in the past been quite tough on Russia, served in the Bush, I guess, Defense Department. Right. If I'm not mistaken, and has said on the stump that are very pro Ukraine and why don't you get him to do something here in Pennsylvania? So, I mean, you could. Now, that's not senatorial courtesy. They don't go into each other's states and be beat them up. I don't know. It's a bit of a crisis of democracy too. So maybe they should let some of the usual, you know, courtesies and there.

[Tim Miller]

Are a million other things to do, obviously. And so, you know, there's only limited time. But we could do something. We're just throwing out an idea. Now. You mentioned Pennsylvania. 122,000 Ukrainians in Pennsylvania, you know, and Democrats could go there. I saw John Fetterman, by the way, palling around with Dave McCormick at Selena Zito's book party over the weekend. Okay, whatever. You say that you're. If the. If the rationale for doing that is that you want to create bipartisan relationships so you can pass stuff. Ostensibly, both Dave McCormick and John Fetterman, in addition to wanting to fet Selena Zito, also want the Ukrainians to be protected, as been both of their positions in the past. Why not have events with Ukrainians in Pennsylvania and invite Dave McCormick to come and if he doesn't come, shame him. There is a limit of creative thinking on all of this. I think it's like, oh, what more can we do? I don't know. Call me up. I've got some ideas.

[Bill Kristol]

That's a good one. They should call you up.

[Tim Miller]

Actually, don't call me. Don't call me. You can. Listen, I'm giving you my good ideas right now. I'm not a consultant anymore.

[Bill Kristol]

You'll accept a few emails, won't you? Do the bulwark.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I guess. I guess I didn't even get to the semaphore story. You got me riled up. Nothing gets me more riled up than these fucking Dave McCormick doing nothing. Dave McCormick having a book party. Give me a Break. What was the other thing we're going to talk about? Oh, the semaphore story. This is also going to keep my blood pressure high, so people should read this one. It might also upset you, but it's kind of, in a funny way, it's called the group Chats that Changed America. It's a series of big tech gazillionaires. It's kind of like the germs of how we got to this dystopia was you had these guys like Mark Andreessen, David Ball Sacks, you know, these other Peter Thiel and some of his acolytes, you know, basically set up these signal and WhatsApp chats with influential Republicans. Ben Shapiro is on one of them. And you know, Republican policy people, Chris Ruffo, if you don't know any of these names, God bless you, just continue on in blissful ignorance. But anyway, Andreessen said that these chats is what helped produce our natural vibe shift. Andreessen was the person that was writing about how America was this coiled spring waiting to be unleashed by some good free market policies. They said these chants are the single most important place and where the realignment towards Donald Trump was shaped. From Silicon Valley, the smartest, most sophisticated Trump supporters in the nation were in these chats. These guys are all bragging about how important these chats are and how it changed everything. And like here we are and we have like the most smooth brained economic policy imaginable being implemented in the first three months after these fucking smarties masters of the universe thought that they were taking over the US Government. That is, that's a truly remarkable chain of affairs. I don't know, Bill, did you get to enjoy this article or are you just enjoying my readout of it right now?

[Bill Kristol]

I really enjoy your readout of it and your indignation and your anger, which are both totally righteous and justified. And also I thought all this Trump stuff was coming from people who had unfortunately lost jobs because of free trade and were victims of globalism. Seems like these guys think all their stuff is coming from themselves, from these billionaires and some of whom helped Musk buy Twitter and turn it into X and make it a biased platform and also put pressure on other, in other ways, I think, on other businesses to go along with, with Trump and, and, and so forth. So maybe there's a little, maybe the whole Trump thing, if we, are we allowed to say that it maybe is a little more top down or a little less organic middle America than a lot of people have wanted. To the Selena Zito.

[Tim Miller]

Where are the forgotten men?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, how are they? There are a lot of them in the Trump cabinet. You got to say that. You look at the Trump Cabinet and you think, you know, he really went out of his way to find some, you know, working class guys who would really paid a price for globalization. You know, you look at those guys and they've had a rough time, those, those people in the Trump cabinet for the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years there.

[Tim Miller]

How do you think the shipbuilders, the workers on the docks are doing right now as the ships don't come in? You know, it's a big reindustrialization policy.

[Bill Kristol]

Has anyone in the Trump administration even expressed a moment of concern or sympathy for them even? I mean, they're not only like wildly wealthy jackasses, they're also wildly wealthy, unempathetic jackasses, which I guess maybe that's part of the package.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we haven't seen much shame yet from the big organizers of this or any humility from the people that thought it was gonna be so easy to co op Donald Trump and then make our AI golden age come through their fucking techno fascist policies. But I don't know, maybe it'll come if the markets get worse. The Semaphore article did have this screenshot for the Aegis, which I do have to share. Ben writes this. One of the chats broke down because David Ball Sacks. Excuse me, he wrote Sacks, but we have to use our bulwark style because David Ball Sacks accused the people of having tds. Brian Goldberg, another founder, replied, I'm not sure we have tds. I think we Republicans who supported Trump are seeing that it's a failed administration. The next line is a little note that says Tucker Carlson leaves the chat.

[Bill Kristol]

Right?

[Tim Miller]

Like, there are a handful of the second tier, like VC guys who are like, I didn't sign up for this. Like, I didn't sign up for fucking my stock tanking. You know, because you guys are like, putting 145% tariffs on China, which wasn't. That was never part of the plan. Nobody told me about that. So anyway, that's. If it wasn't for all the suffering, that would be pretty enjoyable, the, you know, the infighting.

[Bill Kristol]

If only they could have known that Trump was enamored of tariffs and wasn't going to listen and wasn't going to listen to the grownups in the room. Why would one have thought that, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean, Brian Goldberg could have just listened to us rather than listening to the all in podcast and he would have been much more clear eyed about what was coming. But it's still nice to see the infighting. There's a Matt Iglesias article this morning that I think is really important and I feel a little bit like I was, I was wrapped on the knuckles a little bit by Matt Iglesias unintentionally because I had. It was unintentional because I beto on the pod Friday and I love Beto. So, you know, I just, I maybe had Beto colored glasses, but I asked him about running again because he did. He just kind of sounded like somebody that was going to run again. I interviewed him back in August. He didn't really sound like that. It was kind of a tongue in cheek question, really. I didn't, I didn't think that he was thinking about it. 24 hours later, he was asked by a local reporter the same question and his answer was notably non Sherman esque. Right to a point where the Texas reporters are trying to think maybe Beto might be wrong for Senate. And had I thought that my questions would have been a little bit different. Just about being practical in running for these sort of Senate seats. And Iglesias just basically writes about this, which is like for the Democrats to be able to take the Senate and have any sort of policy pass, like to be able to get 51 Senate votes, like you need to win in a place like Ohio, Iowa, Texas, Florida, Alaska, Kansas, and the 26 and 28 cycles. And if you look at those states, I mean, Kamala did worse in those states than Trump did in places like New Mexico or New Jersey. And so it's a big task, like it's a tall task to win in those states. And Iglesias is basically arguing that the Democrats don't seem that serious about finding answers to that, to that conundrum. Right. And there are a couple potential ones. You know, there is. We're in a great Depression and so, you know, we got lucky. The Republicans put up a terrible candidate like Roy Moore, and so the Democrats get lucky. Like those are the two. You didn't have a plan, but it worked out anyway. Options. He floats. The Dan Osborne option is this independent kind of populist, independent kind of guy that sort of mixes like Bernieism with cultural conservatism. This is not my type of candidate at all, but I'm open to that. Maybe that's the right. Maybe that's the winning path. There's also more of a, you know, bulwark accommodating type path. Right that's like, you know, where, you know, you distance from Democrats on issues like energy production and, you know, whatever. So my point is not that I want to prescribe what the right answer is, but it is important in spaces like this to have real conversations about it and just to say, oh, we're just going to run somebody who's going to run as a median Democrat and hope that we're in a great Depression. That doesn't seem like a plan. So anyway, that's my summary of that. I don't know if you have any deep thoughts on it.

[Bill Kristol]

No, I think it's a very good piece. I mean, I think he's right to think about this and not to just give up on 26th and 28th in the Senate. That's really a disastrous thing. There's some tiny, some small chance of winning the Senate in 26. You could avert a lot of bad things in 27, 20, 27, 2028. So it's worth really going for. I think he slightly overstates. Matt does, though. Indeed. He seems to imply you need to have a whole rebranding of the Democratic Party that's hard to do over a year and a half when there's no one in charge of it anyway. And it's just kind of a bunch of people running around saying what they believe. Basically. I think there are two things you can do and it's really, I think 2006 here where the Democrats at massive gains in the off year election. The two things are one, we've already discussed drive Trump's numbers down. The single best predictor of off year performance is the president's approval. And if he's a 34 and you get a wave 36 even maybe and you get a wave election, then it does bring a lot of people in in states that are, you know, minus 8, minus 10, not a lot some people in in those states and you don't even have to have spectacular candidates. That's one and two, as Rahm Emanuel did in 2006, recruit candidates who are good for the states and localities they're running in. And if you can get that combination, I don't think you need to have a whole redefinition of the Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries led party. And governors will do what governors will do and some of them will be like Newsom and some of them will be like Shapiro and others will be like Pritzker. And maybe you can shape that a tad at the margins. But I think those two things recruiting good Candidates and driving Trump's numbers down are very. I don't know if they're achievable goals, but they're very concrete goals. I mean, they're goals you can work on achieving. Right? They're not, like, fanciful. You can actually go to states and districts and say, who is a reasonable candidate here who might fit the district or state a little better than the natural, the state assembly person from some blue dot in a red state who's otherwise just going to naturally win the nomination and lose. And secondly, and above all, I come back to drive driving Trump's numbers down. Everything's so nationalized, it's going to be about checking Trump. Why would you Vote Democratic in 2026 if you're a marginal? You know, unless you're a loyal Democrat, you want to stop Trump. It's like 2018 in that respect. And there you just need to get his number. You need to get the increase the number of people who want to stop Trump. Then maybe you lose a couple of the percent of them at the end of the day because they kind of look at the Democrat and they think, ooh, a little too left wing for me. But if that number is big enough, you can afford to lose those last 2% and still be at 51. Right? So the most doable thing is to knock Trump's numbers down as much as possible.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that, that that's the most doable thing. I also just think, look, this is. I give free advice here because, like I said, I don't like being a consultant anymore over the last years. I know you do. I get calls from people who run around red state runner in Louisiana, like, what do you think? What do you think? And I always say to them, what is a cultural issue where you disagree with the Democratic Party on. I literally don't care what it is.

[Bill Kristol]

Right? It doesn't matter what it is. I think actually, in a weird way.

[Tim Miller]

And frankly, it doesn't matter what it is. Right? Pick one. And don't just kind of like, mention it a little bit. Like, talk about it a lot. Don't talk about it quite as much. You talk about how terrible Donald Trump has been for working class people and veterans, et cetera. That's the most important job. But maybe the second most thing you should talk about is whatever this cultural issue is, where you are more in line with the people of Texas or Iowa or Louisiana than you are with Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer. And like, that doesn't feel like it should be. That Hard, but it is. Like, there's a lot of pressure not to do that. You don't, you know, the rubber chicken circuit, the people don't want to hear that. Right. Like, and will that even work? I don't know. Right. Like, I'm not. This is not a guaranteed path to victory in a red state. It's very hard to win as a Democrat in a red state. But to me, it just feels like an anti of both giving people an anti Trump choice and giving them the choice of somebody that feels like they're from that state, that feels like on some level they connect with the people of that state more than they connect with national Democrats. And even then it's an uphill slog. But just running as a generic is tough and it's not going to do it. And as much as I love Beto, even he would say that. And the grassroots stuff that he's doing is all super important and people should do it. And I love that Beto is doing it. But, like, that is another thing that's necessary but not sufficient, you know, because even he said it in the interview, it's like, you know, this might not pay off, this grassroots thing in 26 or 28 or 30, but it, like, eventually it will. And, and so great. I do that. But like, you know, if you're talking about 20, 26, like, it's not going to be door knocking. That's going to be the, the solution by itself. You got to do those other things.

[Bill Kristol]

And in addition to picking the issue, which I totally agree with, guns is an obvious one where they're not going to pass any gun control legislation in the next. During a Trump presidency in 27, 28 either. So, I mean, if you're a pro gun control, you're not good. I think you can vote for someone who says, I'm not quite with you on gun control. You know, it's not going to matter in the next two or four years, probably. And I think the same is true on a bunch of other issues. But also biography matters. I mean, RAHM recruited in 06, but also in 2018. No one recruited anyone in 2018. Actually, at 2017, people just showed up. Abigail Spanberger showed up and Mikey Sherrill showed up, and former intelligence officers and former military retired and veterans showed up and culturally moderate types showed up and they did well. So again, I think the bio plus the finding an issue or two to distinguish yourself can go pretty far.

[Tim Miller]

All right, final thing, we'll end with an attaboy. Well, you mentioned pritzker I got two attaboys. I don't have the audio of Pritzker. Pritzker was on fire over the weekend, so, you know, that's something to monitor. He's talking about how he's never been the type of person to be a big protest person. And this is the moment for mass protests, if there ever was one. So me and JB are aligned on that. But my actual attaboy that I want to close with was the last minute of 60 minutes, which was, I think, pretty bold for Scott Pelly to do this on air live. So in case you guys missed it, let's listen.

[C]

Bill resigned Tuesday. It was hard on him and hard on us, but he did it for us and you. Stories we pursued for 57 years are often controversial lately. The Israel, Gaza War and the Trump administration. Bill made sure they were accurate and fair. He was tough that way. But our parent company, Paramount, is trying to complete a merger. The Trump administration must approve it. Paramount began to supervise our content in new ways. None of our stories has been blocked. But Bill felt he lost the independence that honest journalism requires. No one here is happy about it. But in resigning, Bill proved one thing. He was the right person to lead 60 minutes all along.

[Tim Miller]

Not bad.

[Bill Kristol]

Pretty powerful.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's nice. See, guys, you can do it. Everybody can do it. Scott Pelly can do it. You can do it. These guys aren't that scary. Anyway, Bill Kristol, we'll see you back here next Monday. Canadians will be watching your election results tonight. And everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Peace.

[D]

That I would do this right Said I would never break this promise but now I'm back to counting on us we cannot be friends Cannot pretend that it makes sense we cannot be friends Cannot pretend that it makes sense Cuz now I'm in it But I've been trying to find my way back for a minute Damn, I'm in it and I've been trying to find my way back for a minute.

[Tim Miller]

That I shouldn't.

[D]

Fight Told me I should not.

[Tim Miller]

Be.

[D]

Friends Cannot pretend that it makes sense But I've been trying to find my way back for a minute My way back for a minute.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.