The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1032 – Tony Blinken: America Alone
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Overview
In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in an in-depth discussion with former Secretary of State Antony Blinken, delving into the current state of U.S. foreign policy, particularly focusing on the ramifications of the "America Alone" approach. The conversation covers a range of topics, including trade tensions with China, the erosion of U.S. alliances, the impact of reduced foreign aid, and the internal political challenges facing the Biden administration. The episode concludes with insights from Alex Wagner on the ongoing protests in Hungary, drawing parallels to American political dynamics.
Interview with Tony Blinken
[00:00 – 02:14] Introduction
Tim Miller sets the stage for a double-header episode centered exclusively on foreign policy. He introduces Antony Blinken, the former Secretary of State, highlighting the tumultuous political climate, including events like Donald Trump's recent misleading interview and the broader Republican spin on foreign policy issues.
[02:14 – 05:48] The Shift from "America First" to "America Alone"
Blinken expresses deep concerns about the U.S. moving from a "America First" stance to "America Alone." He emphasizes the importance of alliances and partnerships in addressing global challenges effectively.
"Where we're headed now is a world not where it's America first, but where it's America alone. And that's not good for us." — Antony Blinken [02:14]
[03:54 – 07:56] Trade Tensions with China
Blinken critiques the current administration's broad and somewhat indiscriminate tariffs on China, arguing that a more focused approach, in collaboration with allies, would be more effective.
"If we're dealing with something that China's doing that we don't like, and we're doing it alone, we're what, about 20, 25% of world GDP? When we're doing it with our European allies, our Asian allies, suddenly we're 50 or 60% of world GDP." — Antony Blinken [03:54]
He discusses China's potential strategy to endure economic pressures longer than the U.S. can, leveraging its systemic resilience.
[06:19 – 08:44] The Erosion of U.S. Soft Power and Foreign Aid
Blinkenk highlights the reduction in U.S. foreign aid and its detrimental effects on global goodwill and the ability to counteract China's increasing influence.
"We're going to see problems get a lot bigger and come and bite us, and we're going to lose that goodwill. And who fills in? Who takes advantage of the vacuum? China." — Antony Blinken [08:30]
He underscores the importance of maintaining strong diplomatic relationships and the role of the State Department and USAID in fostering international partnerships.
[10:46 – 12:41] Trust Deficit with Allies
Blinkenk elaborates on the declining trust between the U.S. and its traditional allies, attributing it to inconsistent policies and unpredictability in the current administration's approach.
"It's never a good bet to bet against America. The problem we now have is that people will not be betting on America." — Antony Blinken [11:20]
He warns that this mistrust could lead allies to seek alternative partnerships, potentially aligning more closely with adversarial nations like China and Russia.
[13:03 – 27:13] Internal U.S. Political Dynamics and Leadership Challenges
The conversation shifts to internal U.S. politics, where Blinken addresses concerns about the administration's communication effectiveness and President Biden's ability to lead, especially regarding foreign policy coherence.
"We were sending weapons to the Ukrainians... The result is a country that shouldn't be around, given the totally disproportionate force that Russia could bring to bear versus Ukraine, is still standing." — Antony Blinken [30:30]
Blinkenk reflects on the handling of the Ukraine conflict and the importance of strategic support to allies. He also touches upon domestic issues, such as anti-Semitism and the dehumanization in political discourse, emphasizing the need for restoring dignity and mutual respect in U.S. politics.
[27:13 – 35:00] Reflections on Trump's Presidency and Its Impact
Blinkenk critiques the current administration's approach by contrasting it with his experiences under previous presidents. He discusses the challenges of maintaining consistent foreign policy and the impact of leadership styles on international relations.
"When you lose that, and that's what I'm afraid we're at risk of losing, then you're heading again to a bad place." — Antony Blinken [18:01]
He expresses concerns about diminished U.S. influence and the long-term consequences of eroded alliances.
[35:00 – 44:01] Rapid-Fire Segment and Final Thoughts
In a rapid-fire exchange, Blinken addresses various pressing issues, including misinformation, policy inconsistencies, and the administration's handling of international conflicts. He maintains a critical yet measured stance, advocating for informed and strategic decision-making to restore U.S. leadership and trust globally.
"If you don't have that connection, it's obviously not going to redound to you in a positive way politically." — Antony Blinken [37:35]
Segment with Alex Wagner: Protests in Hungary
[44:29 – 59:08] Hungary's Democratic Struggle and Lessons for America
Alex Wagner reports from Hungary, where persistent protests challenge Prime Minister Viktor Orban's authoritarian tendencies. She provides an on-the-ground perspective of the resistance against Orban's crackdown on LGBTQ+ rights and broader democratic freedoms.
"The joy of their resistance seems real absent in ours. I think the left needs to find its own sort of spiritual belonging in all of this." — Alex Wagner [53:36]
Wagner draws parallels between Hungary's situation and the current American political landscape, emphasizing the importance of resilience, joy, and effective communication in protest movements. She highlights the strategic framing of protests in Hungary as not just defense of specific rights but as a broader stand against autocratic erosion.
Key Insights:
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Orban's Authoritarian Tactics: Wagner outlines how Orban has systematically dismantled media freedom and civil liberties, consolidating power over 15 years.
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Public Resilience: Despite severe repression, Hungarian citizens exhibit unwavering determination and creative resistance, serving as a model for sustained activism.
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Comparative Analysis: The resistance in Hungary offers valuable lessons for American activists on maintaining morale and broadening the appeal of protest movements beyond niche issues.
[56:18 – 59:08] Underreported Stories and Future Directions
Wagner criticizes the media's focus on specific geographical regions in the U.S., advocating for a more comprehensive coverage of how national policies impact diverse communities. She shares poignant stories from Louisiana, including environmental injustices and the enduring legacy of events like January 6th, underscoring the multifaceted challenges facing American society.
"We have to better understand what's actually happening in the country because otherwise, you keep getting hit with a tidal wave every four years." — Alex Wagner [58:32]
She calls for a more inclusive and empathetic media approach to foster genuine understanding and drive meaningful change.
Conclusion
This episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of contemporary foreign policy challenges through the perspectives of Antony Blinken and Alex Wagner. Blinken provides a critical analysis of the shift towards isolationism, the complexities of U.S.-China relations, and the erosion of trust with allies. Wagner's on-the-ground reporting from Hungary serves as a stark reminder of the fragility of democratic institutions and the enduring spirit of resistance against authoritarianism. Together, their insights paint a nuanced picture of the global and domestic forces shaping today's political landscape.
Notable Quotes:
- Antony Blinken [02:14]: "Where we're headed now is a world not where it's America first, but where it's America alone. And that's not good for us."
- Antony Blinken [03:54]: "If we're dealing with something that China's doing that we don't like, and we're doing it alone, we're what, about 20, 25% of world GDP? When we're doing it with our European allies, our Asian allies, suddenly we're 50 or 60% of world GDP."
- Antony Blinken [08:30]: "We're going to see problems get a lot bigger and come and bite us, and we're going to lose that goodwill. And who fills in? Who takes advantage of the vacuum? China."
- Antony Blinken [11:20]: "It's never a good bet to bet against America. The problem we now have is that people will not be betting on America."
- Alex Wagner [53:36]: "The joy of their resistance seems real absent in ours. I think the left needs to find its own sort of spiritual belonging in all of this."
- Alex Wagner [58:32]: "We have to better understand what's actually happening in the country because otherwise, you keep getting hit with a tidal wave every four years."
Final Notes
This episode underscores the intricate interplay between U.S. foreign policy strategies and internal political dynamics. Blinken's candid reflections on the administration's foreign policy trajectory, combined with Wagner's vivid portrayal of democratic resistance in Hungary, offer listeners a profound understanding of the current geopolitical and sociopolitical challenges facing the United States and its allies.