S2 Ep1033: Tom Nichols: The Hollow Opportunists

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast - S2 Ep1033: Tom Nichols: The Hollow Opportunists

Release Date: May 1, 2025

In this insightful episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a spirited discussion with guest Tom Nichols, Professor Emeritus at the Naval War College and staff writer at The Atlantic. Titled "The Hollow Opportunists," the episode delves deep into the tumultuous landscape of the Trump administration, examining its impact on American democracy, foreign policy, and internal governmental dynamics.

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1. Introduction

Tim Miller opens the episode with brief updates on upcoming events and recent interviews, setting the stage for a thorough conversation with Tom Nichols. The emphasis is on bypassing superficial banter to tackle substantive political issues, aligning with the podcast's mission to defend liberal democracy against what they term the "both-sides" approach.

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2. Trump's Unwinding of America's Global Position

The discussion kicks off with Tom Nichols expressing concern over the rapid dismantling of post-World War II American-led global structures:

Tom Nichols [04:21]: "To see 80 years of post-World War II construction of a world order that was created by the Americans, led by the United States, to the advantage of the United States, of its allies, just come apart in a matter of three months is really astonishing."

Key Points:

• The Trump administration's aggressive foreign policy moves are rapidly undoing decades of established alliances and global cooperation.
• Nichols remains cautiously optimistic, noting that despite his criticism, the administration lacks confidence, which inadvertently benefits the U.S.
• Concerns are raised about the long-term implications of dismantling established international orders, especially regarding tariffs and economic policies that primarily harm American interests.

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3. Marco Rubio and the Russian Parade Controversy

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around Marco Rubio, the U.S. Secretary of State, and reports from Russian state media suggesting his potential attendance at Moscow's May 9th parade commemorating the Soviet victory in World War II.

Tim Miller [06:07]: "Russian State TV is positioning us as one of the 19 friendly countries and meanwhile, he's single-handedly unraveling all of the alliances that have made us strong."

Key Points:

• Tom Nichols criticizes the idea of Rubio attending a Russian military parade, especially amidst Russia's aggressive actions in Ukraine.

  Tom Nichols [07:14]: "Having the Secretary of State of the United States clapping and respectfully reviewing a parade of Russian military might while they are pounding the living daylights out of civilians in Ukraine...that's bad."

• Speculation about whether Russian media is trolling the Trump administration to provoke a reaction.

• The broader implication of Rubio's actions signaling a weakening of U.S. alliances and a bewildering shift in diplomatic protocols.

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4. The Competence Crisis in the Trump Administration

Tim Miller and Tom Nichols delve into the perceived incompetence within key roles of the Trump administration, highlighting figures like Pete Hegseth, Mike Waltz, and Alex Wong.

Tom Nichols [08:10]: "The Republican Party is now full of people... these are the hollow men. They don't really care what they're doing as long as they're not."

Key Points:

• Hegseth is portrayed as emblematic of the administration's broader issues—opportunistic and lacking genuine commitment to policy or governance.

• Mike Waltz's recent ouster as National Security Advisor exemplifies the volatility and lack of stable leadership within the administration.

  Tom Nichols [32:17]: "The National Security Advisor is whatever the President wants it to be."

• The frustration over qualified individuals being sidelined in favor of those who are more sycophantic to Trump’s whims.

• The detrimental effect on governmental functionality, with critical roles filled by individuals lacking the necessary expertise or dedication.

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5. Chris Krebs' Global Entry Revocation

A contentious topic addressed is the revocation of Chris Krebs' Global Entry status, following his departure from the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency.

Tim Miller [19:04]: "This is like Trump seeking revenge. Well, I'm sorry, we're talking about the President of the United States and I don't know where the red line is."

Key Points:

• Krebs facing unprecedented retaliation from the DOJ for his role in the January 6th investigations, marking a significant departure from standard presidential conduct.
• The normalization of such punitive measures against whistleblowers or dissenting officials, undermining trust in governmental institutions.
• Nichols emphasizes the dangerous precedent this sets, highlighting the erosion of checks and balances in the U.S. government.

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6. Appointment of Ed Martin and Government Staffing Issues

The episode critiques the Trump administration's appointments, focusing on Ed Martin, the Acting U.S. Attorney, whose tenure is marked by questionable actions and affiliations.

Tom Nichols [41:01]: "When you become a regular guest and a friend of the show, you know, that's like having people like Cash Patel and Stu Peters."

Key Points:

• Ed Martin's frequent appearances on Russian television and alignment with questionable figures raise serious concerns about his suitability for a senior DOJ position.
• The administration’s nomination process bypassing traditional standards, leading to appointments based on loyalty rather than competence.
• The broader implications for the justice system, with appointments like Martin potentially prioritizing political agendas over the rule of law.

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7. Education Policies and Stephen Miller's Press Conference

Stephen Miller's recent press conference announcing the closure of the Department of Education and the promotion of patriotic education is scrutinized.

Tim Miller [44:14]: "Children will be taught to love America...make sure that these funds are not being used to promote communist ideology."

Key Points:

• The administration's push to overhaul educational curricula to emphasize American patriotism while curtailing what they perceive as communist influences.
• Nichols likens these policies to authoritarian regimes, expressing concern over indoctrination under the guise of education reform.
• The potential long-term impact on American youth, fostering a generation with distorted views of patriotism and critical thinking.

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8. Conclusions and Final Remarks

As the episode wraps up, Tim Miller and Tom Nichols reflect on the disarray within the Trump administration, emphasizing the perilous direction of American governance.

Tom Nichols [39:49]: "We'll see. We'll ask Pete in 10 years, because I think the Secretary of Defense thing's gonna be pretty ugly for him."

Key Points:

• The anticipation of further scandals and administrative failures as the Trump administration continues its unconventional approach to governance.
• Nichols underscores the fragility of American constitutional safeguards in the face of such unprecedented executive actions.
• A call to action for listeners to remain vigilant and engaged in defending democratic institutions against internal and external threats.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tom Nichols [04:21]: "To see 80 years of post-World War II construction of a world order that was created by the Americans...just come apart in a matter of three months is really astonishing."

• Tom Nichols [07:14]: "Having the Secretary of State of the United States clapping and respectfully reviewing a parade of Russian military might while they are pounding...that's bad."

• Tom Nichols [08:10]: "The Republican Party is now full of people... these are the hollow men. They don't really care what they're doing as long as they're not."

• Tim Miller [19:04]: "This is like Trump seeking revenge...I don't know where the red line is."

• Tom Nichols [41:01]: "When you become a regular guest and a friend of the show, you know, that's like having people like Cash Patel and Stu Peters."

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Final Thoughts

In "The Hollow Opportunists," Tom Nichols provides a critical lens on the Trump administration, highlighting systemic issues that threaten the very foundation of American democracy. Through detailed analysis and sharp commentary, the episode serves as a clarion call for accountability, urging listeners to recognize and resist the erosion of institutional integrity and global standing.

For those seeking a comprehensive understanding of the current political turmoil and its implications for the future of the United States, this episode offers a compelling and informative perspective.

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The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Transcript

[Tom Nichols]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. A few quick housekeeping items. The Chicago event with Adam Kinzinger. Sold out. Sorry. You can stand outside and, I don't know, throw underwear at Kinzinger if you want, but the tickets are no longer available. Nashville is available May 29th. The Bulwark.com tickets. Yesterday, I interviewed Chris Van Hollen, Senator Chris Van Hollen. So make sure you're not missing those bonus interviews and instant reaction hot takes I'm doing on YouTube. We're putting them in the Bulwark Takes podcast feed for you audio folks. So go check that feed out if you haven't. And lastly tonight, me, JBL and Sarah are doing a live AMA stands for Ask Me Anything for Bulwark plus, members only on YouTube and Substack. So go grab a beverage. Join us at 8:00pm Eastern. I'll be pregaming an LCD sound system concert, so I'll have a beverage. And you'll find links for this live AMA on theborg.com or on the YouTube page. See you all tonight. Here's the guest. You know who he is. Professor emeritus at the Naval War College. He's a staff writer at the Atlantic. He wrote the Death of Expertise. It's Tom Nichols. What's up, man?

[Tom Nichols]

Hey, Tim. Good to be back with you.

[Tim Miller]

Is it good to be back with me? It's been a little long. It's been a little too long. I need my Tom Nichols, like, you know, every 27 days or so, you know.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, it's been about a month. I think we're in the lunar cycle of, you know, hanging together.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, good. Bill Kristol did me the displeasure of listing how many days left we have of this Trump term yesterday, and it was like 1,300 and something. So, you know, we have a lot more podcasts ahead of us. I'm curious. What a very long list of topics to get to. But just at the biggest picture, Hundred Days was yesterday, what has alarmed you the most, surprised you, if anything?

[Tom Nichols]

I guess it's become fashionable to say that you're completely surprised by the speed with which Trump moved, but I actually look at it from the other side. Well, first, let me be optimistic. I actually think Trump and his people, once again, while they are aggressive and cruel, they're not confident, which is still working to the benefit of the United States and its people.

[Tim Miller]

Well, tbt okay, fair enough.

[Tom Nichols]

But in terms of kind of maybe.

[Tim Miller]

Not on the economic side, but we'll get to that.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, in terms of what he's up to between he and Elon Musk, this is not going so great. With that said, what's really dispirited me has been the kind of passivity of millions of Americans, including at least some of the Institutional Democratic Party, but also a lot of other folks who are kind of, you know, feeling helpless. Now, I know there have been big protests and people have been marching, but I guess I am always stunned when Trump does something staggeringly illegal. I mean, Doge. Let's just Doge itself. For the past three months, there is no such thing as Doge. They made it up. It's not a thing, you know, and. And yet, you know, news reports that, well, you know, the new Doge, the new Department of Government Efficiency, it's not. Stop talking about it as if it were, you know, passed with legislation, and then it's a real thing with offices and letterhead and, you know, a cabinet department. It's not. I think that's been kind of a pebble in my shoe for the. For the past three months. I suppose I focus on that stuff because I don't want to focus on really what is probably the most important story, which is how quickly Trump has unwound America's position in the world. I mean, the stuff about tariffs and dollies and all that stuff, that's bad, and that will mostly affect us. But to see 80 years of post World War II construction of a world order that was created by the Americans, led by the United States, to the advantage of the United States, of its allies, just come apart in a matter of three months is really astonishing.

[Tim Miller]

Let's go ahead and start there, then, because I had Tony Blinken on yesterday, and on the one hand, it's nice to hear from somebody that just sounds basically normal, incompetent. You might be able to disagree with him on this issue or that issue, or exactly how aggressive they were with Ukraine. Plenty of nitpicks. We went over some of those, and maybe this was just kind of his diplomatic nature, but I did not feel like the level of alarm from him matched kind of where I see things are particularly like, we're talking about Marco Rubio, for example. You're looking at Rubio, which we discussed yesterday, a little bit, and I think he was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt or whatever. But it's like, I mean, Rubio was ostensibly going to be the. The adult in the room or whatever, the normal appointee, and he is overseeing this unwinding of the US Role in the world. And who knows if this is true. We have a news story out today from Russian State tv, so we should obviously take that with a whole barrel of salt. But they say that Marco may attend the Moscow May 9th parade. Zvezda quoted an unnamed diplomatic source suggesting Rubio could represent the US at the parade commemorating the 80th anniversary of Soviet victory in World War II. Russian Defense Minister Andrei Belousov said invitations to the parade were extended to guests from 19 friendly countries. We made the cut. Even if Marco doesn't go, it's just like that is the situation we put ourselves in, where Russian state TV is positioning us as one of the 19 friendly countries and meanwhile, he's single handedly unraveling all of the alliances that have made us strong.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, as a lifelong Russia expert, let me say that to have the Secretary of State of the United States clapping and respectfully reviewing a parade of Russian military might while they are pounding the living daylights out of civilians in Ukraine and trying to territorially overrun a friend of the United States would be, as we experts would say, bad. Okay, yeah, that's bad. And you shouldn't do it, and you shouldn't be there for that. Now, it could be that. I believe it's the military paper. They may be just trolling, you know, Belousov and SVZA may be just trolling the United States to see if they can rattle our cage, which they do now. And then on the other hand, with the, you know, staggering incompetence and pro Russian tilt of this administration, I have to say I wouldn't be surprised if I saw Rubio show up. And in Moscow, that wouldn't even make the list of the worst things they've done lately.

[Tim Miller]

And like the Marco Rubio we knew, or the Secretary of State under any Republican president before this. Yeah, we thought we knew. Or the. The Republican Secretary of State under any president before this. Right. Like this suggestion would be mocked. And I think this is the noteworthy element of this. The way that this administration is even speaking about Russia is they reserve their mockery and derision for our friends like the people of Denmark, Greenland, Canadians. So that in itself, even if Marco doesn't end up in Moscow giving a golf clap to the parade, it's still noteworthy.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, you and I have both written speeches. What a perfect opportunity for the United States and its chief diplomat to step forward and say, thank you, Minister Belousov. The only parade I am interested in attending is the one where your forces leave Ukraine.

[Tim Miller]

Right?

[Tom Nichols]

That's it. And just put it out there. And then radio silence. And, no, you're not going to the Mayday parade. You know, you're talking about the kind of the change in Marco Rubio, who goes from, you know, Reaganite to Trumper. But it seems like that's just a kind of a more watery version of what happened to, say, Lindsey Graham. And the reason that all of this is happening is because the Republican Party is now full of people. You know, how many times can you. And I say it? I mean, it's opportunism. These are the hollow men. They don't really care what they're doing as long as they're not. I mean, what's Elise Stefanik up to next? You know, the one thing we know she doesn't want to do, and I think this was a really funny. You know, she was supposed to join the diplomatic and foreign policy team, but the one thing it's clear she doesn't want to do is have to go back to upstate New York and actually represent her constituents. You can almost hear, you know. No, you know, as she was dressed, she was almost could touch the, you know, midtown east and was almost there. That's what powers Trump is that nobody cares as long, as, you know, everybody's interests are taken care of. You know, what happens to the country and its alliances is really just collateral damage.

[Tim Miller]

There's a minerals deal, I guess, that was released, New York Times saying it could bring untold money to a joint investment fund between the US And Ukraine that could help rebuild Ukraine whenever the war with Russia ends. That said, there was no mention of a security guarantee in the deal, which Ukraine has long sought to prevent Russia from regrouping after any ceasefire. You wrote about a week ago that the Trump proposal to end the war isn't a peace plan as a reward for aggression. I don't know. To me, it's like I want to at least have an open mind that they are starting to change their tune on this, and this is a good sign. You've seen the tiny number of pro Ukraine Republicans that were out there, Crenshaw, and all of them praising this deal yesterday. But it's hard for me to see this as anything other than, like, us absconding with some of their resources as we turn and run. But I don't know, what do you make of it?

[Tom Nichols]

The country is fighting for its existence, and we're wrapped around the axle about mineral deals because, of course, with this president, if you don't get something tangible to put in your pocket, then you're the sucker. Somehow you don't support Ukraine because it's the right thing to do. You support Ukraine because it puts some coin in your pocket. The other thing to realize about these deals, and I hate that I think it bothers me because these remind me of the joint stock companies that the Soviet Union used to set up with its Eastern European ally. I'm making Dr. Evil quotes here. Allies. But the other thing is, even if Putin continues to attack Ukraine and somehow in the coming years destroys the Ukrainian government and takes over Kiev, you know, the worst of all worlds, right? Agreements like this are just set up to transfer. They're like warranties that will transfer with the car. You know, it's not like the deal's going to go through. It's like, great, you know, now we've got people that are going to just even hand over more of Ukraine's national wealth to us. And I think, you know, for the largest economy, the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world, you know, shaking down 36 million people who are fighting for their lives, I think it's embarrassing. It's one of the many embarrassing things that we're living through right now.

[Tim Miller]

You haven't even seen embarrassing yet. Tom, I've got audio from yesterday's cabinet meeting. Did you catch any of that? I want to start with our attorney General, Pam Bondi.

[Tom Nichols]

Why you do this to me, Demi?

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, I'm doing it. Let's listen to Pam. Pam.

[C]

President, your first 100 days has far extended exceeded that of any other presidency in this country ever. Ever. Never seen anything like it. Thank you. Your DOJ agencies have seized more than 22 million fentanyl pills, 3,400 kilos of fentanyl since you've been your last hundred days, which saved. Are you ready for this media? 258 million lives.

[Tim Miller]

Are you ready for this media? Are you ready for this? 258 million lives saved. So here's the good news, Tom. You know, it's been kind of a rocky start for Trump, but had Kamala been President, there's a 75% chance you would have died from fentanyl overdose. Apparently.

[Tom Nichols]

258 million lives. I mean, you know, and the rest of us living here as if we weren't raptured or something or, you know, like the post nuclear Wasteland where only 30 million of us are left.

[Tim Miller]

You know, how many people do you think live in America?

[Tom Nichols]

Wow. You know, well, that's like making 200 deals with, you know, 190 countries. They're subjects. It was in the category of, you know, Broken clocks every five years. Even Ann Coulter. I guess yesterday was like, hey, you know, can we kind of chill with the North Korean tributes? You know, again, it tells you something about how insecure Trump is, but how insecure the people around him are as well, that it's just this amazing, you know, let us not be the last one to stop clapping. Comrades, these aren't real cabinet meetings. Real cabinet meetings. You close the door, President says, okay, you know, tell me the stuff I gotta hear. What are we doing this week? How are we going to get our message in our program for it? Instead, everybody goes around the table taking turns talking about the amazing three holes in one that the Dear Leader shot at Mar A Lago yesterday. I mean, it's, it's everything the American system of government, first of all, isn't supposed to be, but also was designed to prevent. I mean, it really tells you that our, that our entire constitutional system of government is hanging by a thread here. And thank God for other parts of our Constitution. And let me give a shout out here for federalism, where, you know, you have states around the country saying, president can say anything he wants. You know, states have rights and there are still courts and people can still organize. But at that level, within the White House, I mean, George Washington and John Adams and I imagine FDR and Jack Kennedy and Ronald Reagan, a lot of other presidents are spinning in their graves saying, what the hell are you doing here?

[Tim Miller]

I have two favorite things I just want to just call attention to in that clip. Well, one of them you didn't get to see because it was on the, what I sent to Katie when I said, we got to pull this clip up this morning. It's the Fox News tweet of that little bit from the press conference. Just totally straight. They just wrote it as AGM Bondi highlights key accomplishments of the DOJ, including saving 258 million lives. I mean, even the, you know, was the Russian military magazine, Zev's Rose. Like, even they're blushing like, this is a little much. Oh, no.

[Tom Nichols]

Oh, hey, and Pyongyang, they're sitting there.

[Tim Miller]

Going, dudes, Fox, whoever's on the Twitter feed at Fox, let's dial it back one notch.

[Tom Nichols]

Unless, unless, and, you know, let's play four dimensional chess. Unless somebody at Fox smiled to themselves and said, you know What? She said 258 million. I'm not going to be the one to save her. You know, she said, 258. We're going to 58. Let's just put it out there.

[Tim Miller]

It's a liberal sleeper cell on the Twitter feed at Fox, maybe I'm open to either.

[Tom Nichols]

She's the attorney general. I mean, you know, of, of all of the offices that are, are supposed to have, you know, you expect CIA Director, DoD, State AG, you know, I mean, you expect this kind of blubbering sycophancy from, you know, fine, if like the Ag Department wants to, you know, you know, Mr. President, the harvest this year.

[Tim Miller]

And she will. And I mean, Brooke will. I mean, there's no amount of spoofing of our new AG secretary that you could offer that might not meet reality.

[Tom Nichols]

But to have the people that you count on to defend the country, to administer the law, to protect the Constitution, you know, talking about, you know, as a, I mean, these, every one of these cabinet meetings is like, like a, a cut scene from Death of Stalin or something. And, and I think that's really disturbing you. You can expect, especially in the press shop. I mean, you know, this, you've seen it with so many administrations that, you know, the, and the press shops. But you don't expect the nation's top attorney to step forward.

[Tim Miller]

Attorney General. Right. There was a little bit, I mean, there's nothing like this. But there was some kind of credulous spin coming from Karine Jean Pierre from the White House podium. It wasn't coming from Merrick Garland. Right, Right.

[Tom Nichols]

Exactly.

[Tim Miller]

My other favorite thing about the clip is Pam going, are you ready for this media? Before dropping the 258, which was exactly what Trump had did the day before, which is like, this is why people don't trust you in the fake news media, because you won't admit that he's got Ms. In Ms. Paint on it, drawn onto his knuckles in Calibri font. I was told by one of our commentators, not Ariel. Sorry. It's important we get our facts right here.

[Tom Nichols]

That's the best crowdsource font story since the George Bush National Guard letter.

[Tim Miller]

Good, Paul.

[Tom Nichols]

But wow, I'm old.

[Tim Miller]

I was there. I mean, I was kind of hitting the bong in college during that time, but I remember it. I was watching Judy Woodruff talk about it.

[Tom Nichols]

Now we have to explain it to people that, you know, when Dan Rather got taken in by a letter supposedly written in 1972 that used a font that hadn't been invented until Microsoft Word was around. But they start to talk like him because you're right, he does it. Are you ready for this? Can I say, are you ready? Okay. Are you ready? I got it. Are you ready? And this isn't Government. This isn't actually governing the country. This is the thing that always amazes me when I watch these cabinet meetings and I, you know, watch them all do the. Remember the old Saturday Night Live. Oh, sir, you know, the court, yo, you're very powerful. So very.

[Tim Miller]

I thought you were going to say Ditka. Ditka could take on 100 gorillas Ditka versus 100 gorillas Trump.

[Tom Nichols]

Then I wonder, okay, who's actually running anything and what. At least at state, some of the rumors that I've heard are that same people that have been there forever, it's the deep state. Why? Because no one else knows what they're doing. And because they fired so many people. And so you have second and third tier, you know, appointees and career folks. And I suppose again, that's a reason for optimism is that, you know, the lights stay on and things still keep happening in government basically because nobody got to them fast enough and fired them and, you know, emptied out these offices and made it impossible for the government to function.

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk about a friend of the show, Chris Krebs. We had another news item about him yesterday. Trump's former cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency head. His Global entry has been revoked. He received an email yesterday from the Trusted Traveler program saying his status had changed. No longer a trusted traveler. These fucking, like just these low rent bullies. It's just so fun. It's like Trump is like, I am ordering my attorney general to go after this man for embarrassing me for speaking the truth. And it's like, what have we come up with so far? You've got to wait in the longer line. And when you go through customs now, and it is like simultaneously like pathetic and embarrassing bullying and just an unprecedented attack by the federal government on a single person over, over political concern. It's not unprecedented in the post Watergate era, let's say. Right?

[Tom Nichols]

That's, that's the scary part is that, I mean, the, the immediate issue of, well, we're going to kick you off Global Entry, it's juvenile. You can't be in our club anymore. Like you say, you have to go stand in the longer line. But mobilizing the machinery of government against one person because he pissed you off by telling the truth years ago, you know, he's not even in government. I mean, it's one thing to say, look, I don't want people around me, and this is a completely legitimate thing to do in government to say, I don't want appointees who have criticized me remaining in this administration. Okay. No, all presidents do that, right? You know, I come in, you're either a previous pointee of mine or you're appointed by my, my successor. You obviously don't like me. We're not going to work well together. You're fired. To go from that to, you know, we're going to pull your security clearances, we're going to kick you out of, you know, global entry, we're going to look at your taxes, we're going to, you know, just harass you. This is what I meant at the beginning, Tim, about why aren't people kind of more astonished by this? And I think that fire hosing means that we just accept these stories because there are so many of every day Trump is going after so many people in this kind of petty, inane, but in the end, extremely dangerous way that we just sort of shrug and say, well, just another day of, you know, Trump seeking revenge. Well, I'm sorry, we're talking about the President of the United States and I don't know where the red line is, where people finally, people on his side finally react. This, I mean, you know, blue America, blue maga, you know, which has its own set of conspiracy theories, but also, you know, centrists and independents and liberals of good conscience, they've all reacted to this. But it's become nonetheless a kind of just part of the wallpaper of our life politically that Trump does this stuff. And that's the part I find really concerning.

[Tim Miller]

And I feel it about the media, too. I mean, on this, like this one, I hate. You know, I try to limit the media criticism on here because, like, media is big and, you know, it's a hobby horse for enough people on the Internet. But Jake Tapper wrote this story, so credit to Jake about Krebs and the thing, but there's no coverage of it across the other. I went to the Times and the Post this morning, as I do before the pod, just to see what everybody's writing about, see if there's something I missed and nothing. And I think back to something like Valerie Plame or, you know what I mean, what other sort of things where the government was going after somebody, not even in as direct of a way, you know, but just because of the nature of those times. It's like it stands out as a scandal, right? And so it's like wall to wall coverage. And I've said this about Krebs. I was like, if this had been Obama or Bush or Biden sicking his DOJ on a single person and Miles Taylor, for that matter, like every press conference would be about it. You couldn't talk about anything else until it was over. Right. Like it would have completely consumed the media landscape.

[Tom Nichols]

And this, you know, be above the fold every day.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And this is just a one off.

[Tom Nichols]

From the fact that you still don't remember who Valerie Plame is, tells you what a big deal that was, because that's a long time ago now. But also when you're talking about weaponizing and going after one person, here's a blast from the past. Lois Lerner.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure, right.

[Tom Nichols]

And is the IRS dragging its feet on here? Here's a quaint scandal. Was the IRS dragging its feet on certifying the nonprofit status of consum conservative organizations to this day, I think someone in the IRS was, yes. In fact, dragging their feet on this to be difficult. How high up in order to do that came from? I don't think it went very high. I suspect that it was, you know, somebody making decisions saying, I'm just not gonna, I'm not gonna really hustle to help some conservative group get their, their status here. There was weeks and weeks and weeks. I mean, it was a huge story. We learned the names of minor IRS officials like Lois Lerner, you know, who deleted all her stuff. And I seem to remember she did something about they took the hard drive out of her computer or she retired and then the whole thing went away. But I mean, here you have the President practically holding press conferences to get out there and say, here's a list of people I'm going to screw using the government in the United States. And everybody goes, is that Krebs with a K or is that.

[Tim Miller]

It is crazy. To credit some of these other media outlets, the big story from the Times this morning that they are covering is, you know, my hobby horse about the folks we've been sending to Sukkot. This is just so unbelievable. But the Times has three sources inside the administration that say that Bukele, that fucking tin pot crypto dictator at El Salvador, was concerned that the people that were being sent were not criminals. And he wanted assurances from the US that each of those locked up in the prison was members of Trend Aragua. And so they tried to rush around to get all the kind of information they could to provide it to Bukele to make him feel good. It's like, this is crazy. This man who is known for being, let's say, a little haphazard in determining who to jail in his country, and he's jailed a lot of real Criminals, no doubt.

[Tom Nichols]

Casual.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, casual. He jailed a lot of real criminals. No doubt. But like, kind of his shtick is that they're, you know, some people are getting swept up in the dragnet down there because, you know, he wants to be tough on crime. This man's shtick is that like, you know, we're a little loose with who we're saying to the jail. Bukele is saying to us, did you guys cross your T's on this? Like, and the entire Republican Party shouldn't be laughing.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm sorry, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no, I should not be funny. The entire Republican Party and the entire Trump administration, there's no Krebs, there's no whistleblower. There's not one person that's like, shouldn't we just bring these guys back and just like, and make sure we didn't mess up on any of them? I mean, we can keep them in detention. We're not saying to let them loose on Disneyland. Like, let's bring them back, you know, go through the files and make sure we didn't wrongly send someone to a fucking concentration camp. And if Bukele's worried about it, shouldn't at least one Republican in Congress be worried about it?

[Tom Nichols]

The reason I'm laughing is because the whole setup, I mean, and this is so often the case now, the whole setup with most of these stories sounds like the pitch for, for. And you know, I've said this before, it sounds like the pitch for the SNL Cold open. You know, you got Trump at the desk and a guy, you know, the, the host for the week comes in dressed like Bukele and says, you know, Donald, not for nothing, but he's sure on some of these guys, you know, I mean, I'm not, I'm not quite. I'm just saying, you know, the makeup.

[Tim Miller]

Artists, you know, with the balloons and the stuffed animal, the stuffy that he's.

[Tom Nichols]

Hunking, I mean, there's some paperwork, it's gone missing. I'm not sure. I think the reason this happens is that this administration, especially now on its revenge tour, guys like Miller and you know, Bondi and all of these folks that are now that have all been elevated, Hegseth especially and Gabbard, all these people that have been elevated to positions they had not a prayer in hell of ever attaining in a kind of just and merit based society. I mean, it's ironic how obsessed they are with merit when, you know, Pete Hegseth is the Secretary of Defense. They've developed a kind of oppositional Defiance, disorder. That whatever they hear coming at them from the media or from the broad mass of Americans or from institutional opponents within justice or defense or wherever, they immediately say we have to do the opposite. Hey, you know, we might have taken some people don't belong there and put them into this kind of ghastly prison. And then someone out there says, well, maybe you should bring them back. Their immediate answers say, no, you're not the boss of us. You can't tell us what to do. We're done taking orders from the liberal media and the libtards and the, you know, the, I don't know, what are the other names you cucks and losers have been geeking out on Star Trek references. And they always remind me of the Klingon commander played by Christopher Lloyd in the third movie. Christopher Lloyd, the Klingon commander. Admiral Kirk, you know, Reverend Jim becoming the, the Klingon commander. And he says, Kirk says they're trying to get off this planet that's about to be destroyed and Spock's unconscious and he says to the Klingon, you should beam up the Vulcan to get him off here. And he says no. And Kirk says, why not? And the commander says, because you wish it, you know. And they're like, you're probably going to have to get rid of Pete Hegseth. No. Why? Because you in the media. Because somebody out there that I perceive as my enemy told me to do it and therefore like an 8 year old who hates his, you know, first grade teacher. My answer is going to be no, I'm not going to put my scissors away. No, I'm, you know, not going to stop eating the paste or whatever the hell it is that they're doing now. Apparently some of the dam broke as we've been sitting here talking.

[Tim Miller]

Tim, I'm excited to get to that, to stick with it. I'm about to go there.

[Tom Nichols]

I don't even know what I was gonna say. In this hand I had a news item and in this hand I got nothing. And I don't even remember what I was talking about.

[Tim Miller]

A news item. We have an exciting breaking news item about the staffing of our government. But I do just want to shout. I just want to close the loop really quick on the Time story because I give so much attention to Andre the makeup artist. But there are some of these other cases and this same story goes pretty deep on this young man, N. Alvarado, who is the guy that has the autism awareness tattoo. And that the Time story is just so good on this, where it's like he came here in April and he just was working at a bakery and he's like sending money to help his brother with autism. And like, he has. The bakery owner. The bakery owner is like, I'm gonna go to El Salvador and get him myself. You know, he's this guy who just had met him, he's like, he's that good and that sweet and nice of a person. So anyway, there's additional reporting, like demonstrating that we sent people wrongly. There's. So it's not surprising that even Mr. Braces bukele.

[Tom Nichols]

And maybe we should get them out.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

No, no. Why? Because you wish it?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, because you wish it. No, we can't bring him out. Here's the breaking news you referenced. It's my job. I'm the host, Tom. All right, all right, man.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm sorry. I'm trying to be helpful.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, boy, we're all getting texts. We're all getting texts. Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor, and Deputy Security Advisor Alex Wong, a guy I know a little bit who worked for Mitt Romney. His days were numbered from the start. As soon as he got that job, my eyebrow raised and I was like, this guy is not long for that world. He's way too normal, way too just competent and regular as far as just his policy views are concerned to survive. And he's kind of a passive guy. Like, this guy's going to get pulled over by these MAGA freaks. These guys have been fired. The claim is that it is because Trump is not happy about the efficiency and the competence. Excuse me if I'm a little suspect of that rationale, that like, the NSA isn't being run as efficiently as Donald Trump wants. And I think if he's concerned about efficiency, we've got problems all across the government. To me, the problem is that these guys were not one of them. And this is where the opposition defiance disorder doesn't come in. It's like if he's getting criticized by the New York Times, he's like, you got to fire Hegseth. It's like, no, I'm not going to fire Hegseth. But if Laura Loomer and MAGA world and these freaks are like, I don't know if you can trust this guy. He had Jeffrey Goldberg's number in his phone. And you know that other guy worked for Romney, right? To me, that's always going to be the greatest sin. And that's why the Rubio's of the world have to perform so ostentatiously in support of MAGA in order to overcompensate for that original sin quote unquote. So anyway, that's my hot take, not having gone deep on it yet, but Michael Waltz is out as National Security Advisor.

[Tom Nichols]

There's some other things to consider here. One is the guy who obviously should go and who's been screwing up magnificently for three months is Pete Hegseth. I mean, I think if you went and asked Republican senators, what vote do you regret the most? Hegseth be right at the top there.

[Tim Miller]

As you say that. I just got a text from the Mark Kelly spocks, Mark Kelly, saying they're holding the wrong guy accountable. They fired the wrong guy. It should be Hegseth. And that's the whole thing. You can't fire the guy that Mark Kelly and Tom Nichols wants you to fire. Right.

[Tom Nichols]

But more to the point, you can fire Mike Waltz, replace him and not have to go through another Senate confirmation hearing.

[Tim Miller]

It's a good point.

[Tom Nichols]

Look, the national security adviser, as Trump learned in his first term, nsa, that's an easy kill, right? You can just push that guy out of the plane and yell next. And you get another guy there the next day because they're not. It is not a totally under control of office of the President. It is not a Senate confirmable position. It only has as much power and influence as the President ever lets it have. In theory, it has well defined roles in the National Security Council and so on. But the reality is National Security Advisor is whatever the President wants it to be. If he fires Hegseth, he opens up this whole shit show about who's going to come in, who's going to get past the Senate. Now somebody made a. I can't remember who it was. So I apologize to whoever's idea I'm stealing here, but it was something to the effect of there was a way to do this quick do si do with Dan Cain and you know, another nominee and that you get basically a chairman and a new sec def all at once. That would have been really uncontroversial. But of course that would be the simple and scandal smothering approach. And Trump didn't take it. So he's gonna hang out Mike Waltz and Alex Wong and some other people because that's the easy thing to do. And because as you say, not our people, not our guys. I mean, he really, by all reports, president really likes Hagseth because Hagseth knows how to play to that gallery and Hegseth knows how to suck up to the boss. And that as we now Know, going back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, cabinet meetings, sucking up to the boss is a core skill set here. It's how you survive.

[Tim Miller]

It's crazy. If you're looking at, imagine the humiliation of Mike Waltz. Let's just walk through this for a second. He gives up his seat in Congress, which is a very safe seat. He could have been in that seat for his entire life. He wanted to, to go and work and suck up to Donald Trump. Somebody who like, really just based on Waltz's past, he's not aligned with on foreign policy issues, you know, specifically. But he goes to do it because he wants the job, wants the access, wants to be on Air Force One, wants to be hanging out next to the power center. He lasts in the job, 10 Scaramucci, barely 100 days, 10 Scaramucci, that's it. Loses his congressional seat, gone is humiliated. MAGA world isn't going to like him now. They are going to, you know, do everything to protect Pete and to protect all the other MAGA people. He's about to be trashed in MAGA media. His brother in law is the lead singer of Creed. It's not really his fault. Which just kind of adds to the humiliation a little bit. Yeah, that's true, that's true. And, and then you look around the government and it's like, you know, who outlasted you? The fucking radio host. That's the deputy FBI director, like the guy, you know, I mean, Cash Battalion. And it is a rogues gallery of clowns that are in this administration. And Mike Waltz, the quasi. I mean, I don't have any love for Mike Waltz, but quasi serious at least like plausible person is the first one out. It is pretty humiliating. They're floating Putin's pal Steve Witkoff as the replacement.

[Tom Nichols]

Oh, come on. This is where I do the Jim Carrey water meme, you know. Come on. I mean, are you serious? They're floating Witkoff to be National Security Advisor?

[Tim Miller]

It's been floated. It's a trial balloon. Again, I don't have any insight into what's happening in Donald Trump's brain, but that's their trial balloon. Wyckoff, I don't know if you caught this. Was it on Tuesday's pod, but it was a story that Wyckoff's kid, who's in business partners with Trump on his shitcoin and his cryptocurrency was in Pakistan meeting with the Prime Minister about investing into the Trump business. So Witkoff is, his family is in business with Trump's Scam, cryptocurrency. He has really been quite enamored with Putin. And he's the first name out as far as the flow, and he's a real estate man. He doesn't have plausible national security experience, and he's the first name out there.

[Tom Nichols]

And I'm sure that selling real estate sets you up to convene National Security Council meetings.

[Tim Miller]

Why not?

[Tom Nichols]

Sure, why not? You know, ever since I've had to practice saying Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth out loud, you know, nothing surprises me. But what I was going to say a minute ago was that the Republicans who, you know, have been going along with all of this and praying for some kind of miracle, this has to give them the willies because Waltz, as you say, no love for Mike Waltz, but somebody you could look at and say, I disagree with him, but he seems to take these issues seriously. I, you know, not on the same side of the issues as he is, but a man who at least seems to take seriously these. These ideas when he was a member of Congress and even as National Security Advisor. And he and Rubio were going to be the adults in the room. Right? Okay, so Rubio has become a shell of himself, and Waltz is out. And you would think that Trump would be looking around to say, who can I appoint that I can ignore, but who will calm all of you people down?

[Tim Miller]

No, I don't know that he cares about our calm anymore.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, I mean, even within his own, you know, among his own people, you know, one of the things we're seeing, for all the talk about Trump, 2028, he doesn't care about any of that stuff. I think he's just trolling us with 2028. He knows it's not going to happen. But once again, as Republicans learned in the first term, Trump doesn't care about them. He doesn't care if they get slaughtered in the midterms. He doesn't care who loses a seat. I mean, when you were talking about Waltz again, I was thinking back to Stefanik, you know, and the other people said, okay, I'm gonna give up this safe seat. I don't love having to go back to upstate New York and listen to people complain about, you know, cows or whatever they're complaining about. But I get to live in Washington, and I have, you know, an aide who brings me coffee every morning. That's really cool. And right now, you know, where are you? You're not even in the leadership anymore. Waltz is out. Stefanik's been sent to the back benches. I mean, don't people understand that getting involved with Donald Trump means that eventually Rick Wilson's right, that everything Trump touches dies because it's going to happen to other people as well? Pete Hegseth. I don't even know the over under on Pete Hegseth. Couple more months, one more scandal. Who knows what it is? Once Trump starts firing people, he gets over the fear of firing people. People. And I think that Pete Hegseth will look at this time as the high watermark of his life, and then everything's going to be downhill from here. They don't seem to understand that they serve Trump for this very short period of time. He burns them out, you know, uses them up and then sends them off to the trash heap.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. Are you sure that the high mark of Pete Hegseth's wife wasn't the time that he was aggressively pursuing a married woman and drunkenly shouting at a maitre d at a hotel while his bab baby mama was at home with his baby and his wife was going through a divorce with him? I mean, that's a huge. I mean, think about that. You're juggling three women at once. You're so hammered that you're shouting at the hotel staff.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm gonna say being Secretary of Defense is better than that. Okay.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm just gonna take.

[Tim Miller]

We'll see. We'll ask Pete in 10 years, because I think the Secretary of Defense thing's gonna be pretty ugly for him. You read about Ed Martin, Eagle Ed, recently, the Acting U.S. attorney. Interesting item this morning. Senate Majority Leader Thune has churned through all this like array of clowns that Trump has nominated for various jobs across our government. But Martin is still on hold. Martin has been a little mean to Thom Tillis. Thom Tillis might finally find his courage because Eagle Ed Martin was mean to him on a podcast. So I don't know. Ed Martin might have done the one thing that you cannot do to get confirmed by this Republican Senate, which is be mean personally to the Republican senators. Nothing to do about your quality, qualifications, your Russo file history, et cetera. But tell us a little bit more about what you'd wrote about Ed Martin.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, Ed Martin, who has been on Russian television 150 times. We've all been there, right?

[Tim Miller]

Zero for me, always refused every time.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, I am proud to say that I too, have always refused and would never go on rt.

[Tim Miller]

I have been on Newsmax several times, though, so that's a thin line. Thin line.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm drawing But I'm saying, you know, we all, you know, I mean, I, I was on Bill O'Reilly show once, you know, it's, it happens. But it's like the old Joan Rivers joke where she says, you know, man, God rest her soul, she says, you know, man sleeps around, he's successful. A woman makes 70, 80 mistakes, you know, and she's a, she's a slut. You know, it's one thing to do, you know, one or two hits and say, that wasn't comfortable. I really shouldn't do that again. But when you become a regular guest and a friend of the show, you know, I mean, that's like, you know, like Cash Patel and Stu Peters. I don't know who he was. I only did a show, you know, eight times, be like, me, say, Tim, Tim Miller. Don't know the guy that I did. He's a face on the screen. So that tells you something. And I watched a lot of those. I mean, when I wrote that piece, I actually went and I watched those clips, and he's having the time of his life. I mean, he's yucking it up with George Galloway and, you know, shooting the breeze with the host and trashing America at will. And, you know, normally Republicans back in the day, back when they were still a party, would have said, you know, trashing your own country on Russian television and going on there 150 times. Probably not a, you know, that's probably disqualifying to become a senior Justice Department appointee. So it may be, it may be not just that he pissed off Thom Tillis, but that, that first his record is on. This is so egregious. But the other thing is, does Ed Martin have the kind of institutional and White House juice that say, you know, Pete Hegseth had, right? I mean, Trump went and twisted arms, Hegseth gets through by a single vote. Does Martin really have anybody who's saying, oh, yeah, Ed Martin, I'll go to bat for that guy?

[Tim Miller]

Maybe just because it's like, who else are they going to find to put in as the D.C. u.S. Attorney who's just going to fire off insane letters to Georgetown about how they can't teach dei and to Robert Garcia saying that he is, like, you know, possibly going to be charged for death threats because he used a metaphor to describe, you know, his feelings.

[Tom Nichols]

But you would think now, again, I'm making a big assumption, you would think they'd say, you know, we do want somebody in the D.C. you know, as the D.C. aUSA, to be effective and really, you know, put the fear of God into some of these people. That's not Ed Martin. I mean, this. What Ed Martin is doing is clownish and won't stand up. And, you know, it's just for public consumption. So I don't know. If you were a hardcore MAGA person, wouldn't you say, you know, I don't really want a guy who's, you know, doing the kind of carnival barker stuff. I want somebody who's actually going to make people's lives miserable with. Really, with, you know, using the law.

[Tim Miller]

Don't give many ideas, Tom.

[Tom Nichols]

I know, I know. That's the problem. Right. There's a part of me that says, no, no, everything. You know, you're doing fine. Keep everybody right where they are. You know, because as you say, what happens if they get someone who combines that kind of politics with a minimal level of competence? And then I think we're actually worrying about something even worse.

[Tim Miller]

Final topic, hair. Stephen Miller did a press conference right before we started taping this morning. I just want to play one clip for you for fun.

[Tom Nichols]

Children will be taught to love America. Children will be taught to be patriots. Children will be taught civic values for schools that want federal taxpayer funding. So as we close the Department of Education and we provide funding to states, we are going to make sure that these funds are not being used to promote communist ideology.

[Tim Miller]

Free speech, patriotic speech, freedom of demand.

[Tom Nichols]

Wow.

[Tim Miller]

The Hitler Youth, excuse me, the Trump Youth, will be taught how great a country is. I mean, that's crazy.

[Tom Nichols]

Every time I hear these guys, I think, how many of them somewhere have some kind of villain origin story about some terrible thing, you know, And I always look at Steve Miller and I.

[Tim Miller]

High school cafeteria.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah. And I think, what was high school like that? You're still carrying this level of anger with you. But, you know, children will be taught to love. Look, when I was a boy, we said that. You know, I don't know if they still do this in schools. You know, we did the Pledge of Allegiance. You know, we had a flag hanging up. We had a calendar with the pictures of all the presidents. It's okay to say, look, our schools, you know, American schools, should reflect our patriotic. You know, they should instill patriotism about our system of government. It's another thing to say this in this kind of, you know, Soviet commissar.

[Tim Miller]

You shall love and honor America.

[Tom Nichols]

You will love Big Brother. You know, you will honor America. And I think. I think one of the things that always comes out of these folks is there is a. Aside from These. These kind of psychic scars that seem to pop out of them when they talk, you know, where you just want to say, wow, who hurt you? There's us in this huge insecurity, you know, you will love America. No one told me as a, as a kid in the 60s that I will love America. I loved America because everybody loved America. And everybody around me was an example of patriotism, of loving America, of, you know, standing when the national anthem is played, putting your hand over your heart, saying the pledge of Allegiance, the idea that you say you will, you must, it shall, and then worrying about whether you're getting communist propaganda. I mean, I went to school in the 70s, man. If there was a time that you were going to get communist propaganda, that was it. I don't even know what the hell these people are talking about when they.

[Tim Miller]

Talk about, we are so anti communist that Trump will do state control of our government and decide which industries get tariffs and which ones don't.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, there's second graders that are coming home and saying, you know, mommy, today. You know, I did a cutout of a horsey and a duck. And also I drew this picture for you of the worker seizing the means of production.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, the hammer and sickle.

[Tom Nichols]

Where is this coming from? What kind of fever dream, you know, these people have at 2 in the morning where they wake up and they think that, you know, children are reading Das Kapital in third grade.

[Tim Miller]

It's crazy, delusional, fascist. Tom Nichols. Thank you very much, everybody. Go subscribe to the Atlantic to read Tom Nichols. He'll be back in the next lunar cycle. We had so much to cover. I didn't even get to all that economy stuff. But luckily we've got a great guest for that tomorrow. So come back then. We'll see you then, Tom. We'll see you soon. Soon. Peace.

[Tom Nichols]

All right. Take care, Tim.

[D]

And at someone else's place you took acid looked in the mirror watch the beard crawl around on your your face all the revolution was here that would set you free from those.

[Tom Nichols]

In the.

[D]

Morning everything's clearer when the sun grab your clothes Head to the doorway.

[Tom Nichols]

If.

[D]

You dance out no one complains.

[Tom Nichols]

Find.

[D]

A place where you can be boring where you won't need to explain but you'll think and in my head and you wish you were dead or at least instead of sleeping here, you prefer your own bed. Come on. You just suck at self reservation versus someone else's pain. So you. You feel great.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.