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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1037: Katie Phang and Greg Casar: Trump & Co Are the Real Flag Burners
00:57:34
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- [00:02]
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Bulwark Host
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.
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Tim Miller
I'm your host Tim Miller. Before we get to our guests, a couple notes. Number one, we had quite the storm here in New Orleans during this podcast. So for the YouTube viewers, you're going to see me popping around from the studio down to my guest room all over the place to try to get this to work. But we made it work for you. Appreciate Katie Fang for sticking around and dealing with my technical difficulties. But more importantly than that, I want to talk about some ads that ran on this podcast yesterday. The Department of Homeland Security Security is running these grotesque self deportation ads featuring Kristi Gnome. They ran a couple of them, it sounds like on this podcast yesterday. The only good news about Audio Nomads is you don't have to see the uncanny valley nip tuck makeover she's undergone, but the rest of it is pretty much bad news. And the question people had is like, why are they running these ads on the Never Trump blowtorch? The answer is I don't really know. Maybe they think we have undocumented listeners. Maybe they're confused by the former Republican thing and think they're reaching Magas with their propaganda. Maybe they're trying to trigger Janie from.
- [01:38]
Bulwark Host
The Upper west side.
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Tim Miller
Maybe they're ignoramuses. They're flinging their diarrhea everywhere with no concern for how they spend taxpayer dollars. Maybe a little bit of all of that, I don't know. But as far as I'm concerned, if they want to waste DHS resources paying us, I'll take it. Better here than in a place that's going to scare vulnerable people. Better they spend money on this than in, I don't know, plain fare to El Salvador. So that's my view on it. A brief aside, for people who care about how the ad process works, I don't control the programmatic ads, only the ones that I endorse with my made for print vocal tones here. So you know, when you hear me talking about whatever, that's an ad I'm aware of. We can reject those. But the rest of Them are just some AI automated system up there. So your guess is as good as mine for why Kristi Noem and DHS and Trisha have picked us. But if you don't want to hear ads at all, we offer an ad free version. You can go to the bulwark.com subscribe, we'd love to have you. But because they advertised on the pod, I did want to address them directly. I do have a message for Kristi Noem and the sadists behind those ads. And it's this. There's one thing that's unique about America. It's a place where those fleeing torture and persecution and discrimination could come to find refuge. It's the place where those people would have an opportunity to achieve a dream. A dream we once called the American Dream. They could do it, no matter their bloodline or what patch of soil they grew up on. And unless Kristi Noem happens to be fully descended from slaves or Native Americans, and who's to know since she's completely reconstructed her face, it's thanks to that tradition that she now has the opportunity to have this sacred position of protecting our homeland. With these ads, Christy and all those who work for her are defiling their birthright as Americans. They are the flag burners. They are the criminals. They're kidnapping people and sending them to a foreign torture prison with no due process. That is what monsters and fascists do. And I do hope that one day in this world or the next, they're going to be held to account for their criminal behavior. The ads that they're running now calling for people to self deport. What they're trying to do, let's just be honest, is intimidate people who are not criminals. They want you to think they're going after the gang bangers and the rapists with the cantaloupe thighs. But what they're doing is they're bullying people who are law abiding, who do not have criminal record. They're trying to bully them into making an impossible choice about whether they should stay here, stay in this place where they came looking for a better life alongside their family and friends that are here legally. Whether they should stay in this place where they go to church and work and pay taxes. They're trying to push them out to achieve some, I don't know, material for their un American propaganda. Because the people who listen to an ad and are like, maybe I should self deport, it's the folks that are trying to go through this process right away. There are a lot of people that came here illegally but have been trying to apply all the way back to the Obama administration. Maybe they're dreamers. Maybe they're people that came looking for asylum and haven't been granted it. There's so many different examples. I knew these folks. I knew people in this community and in Oakland, I did a lot of work with the Guatemalans who had come here as asylees. And a lot of them were mixed families, right? Because the rules kept changing. And some of them came here, you know, when the asylum rules were more welcoming and like other members of their family came after or were unable to come in time or. And so you have mixed families that are here. They're working, they're contributing, they're doing what every other generation of Americans have done. And our Secretary of Homeland Security is trying to fucking scare them. And she's trying to scare the ones that are here legally as well as the ones who aren't. It is a campaign of terror and it is fucking sick. And so, hey, in a free country, these folks can advertise wherever they want. But these ads only fill me and I assume the listeners of this podcast with more contempt for the people that are executing this despicable deportation campaign. And it is only going to invigorate us to continue to oppose their vile, unamerican agenda. So eat a dick, Christine. Not in a good way. Up next, Katie Fang and Congressman Greg Kazar. She's a legal analyst, independent journalist and trial lawyer. Her sub stack is Law and Disorder. It is Katie Fang. What is going on, Katie?
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Katie Fang
Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. It's been very mellow, right? No news. No news about me, you know, nothing at all.
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Tim Miller
I want to hear a little bit about the news about you. You left MSNBC recently, but before that, for listeners, I think probably especially for listeners who came to know you watching msnbc, but for those who aren't familiar with you as well, maybe they had.
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Bulwark Host
An experience that I did, which was.
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Tim Miller
It was around maybe during the pandemic, but I was like, who is this Katie Fang? She is cooking on tv. And I had no idea where you came from. I did not know your backstory. So could just give us a little tldr? How did you just kind of emerge from the ether into dropping bombs on TV all the time?
- [07:16]
Katie Fang
Listen, I was always there, but I was silent like a ninja. So I've been doing legal analysis and some people know this. I was actually doing legal analysis on Fox News for a number of years pre November 2016, before everybody jumped the shark there. And Went totally nuts. But I was on Fox and Fox Business and then I came over right after the November 2016 election in December, interestingly, I came over with Megyn Kelly and Greta Van Susteren, if you can believe it.
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Tim Miller
Oh, there was a power trio trifecta.
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Katie Fang
Exodus of us from Fox and we came over to msnbc and Greta left very quickly thereafter and Megan unceremoniously left as well, maybe about a year later. But I have always been a legal analyst.
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Tim Miller
Now you and Megan are back to being competitors again in the independent media media space.
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Katie Fang
Gonna give Megyn Kelly a run for her money. Although she, she has extensions and I don't. But anyway, neither here nor there. But I was always a full time trial lawyer running my own law firm. I was working for other firms and then I have my own firm and doing legal analysis for msnbc. But it was always kind of a tough thing, right Tim? Because I felt like my bread and butter paying the mortgage was my legal right. And then I felt like I was cheating myself because I really loved doing the TV analysis. But then when I did the TV analysis, I'm like, well, crap, I still to be there front and center for my priority, which are my clients. And so for years it's kind of walking that tightrope. And then out of the blue, In November of 2021, I was approached by MSNBC and they were like, look, we would love for you to have your own show, which was, I mean, kind of wild, right? So that's what started my journey of three plus years of having the Katie Fang show on msnbc.
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Tim Miller
What kind of legaling were you doing? What kind of lawyering were you doing?
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Katie Fang
So I was a, for lack of a better way of putting, I was a hired mercenary. I would, I would parachute in and try cases because that was kind of my thing. But I was doing a, a lot of business torts, business litigation, I was doing a lot of employment litigation and then I was doing a lot of crisis comms. And I always used to say, if I'm doing my job well, you have no idea what I'm doing. And then I did some high net worth family law cases. So I represented some very interesting people in their family law issues.
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Tim Miller
So now we've got your, your transition and your career. You're offered the show now you're an independent person.
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Bulwark Host
Obviously I'm an MSNBC political analyst. So you know, full disclosure, they are.
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Tim Miller
Spinning off into a spinco and you got spun out. So give us the breakdown.
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Katie Fang
Listen, I had a completely amicable departure from the network. In fact, you'll see me back as a guest doing legal analysis here or there. But I will say the independent media space is fantastic. There is a kind of Katy unleashed that I've been able to be doing. Some of it is expressed in profanity. But you know what, though, Tim?
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Tim Miller
What's your favorite cuss word?
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Bulwark Host
What's your favorite cuss word? We cuss here.
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Katie Fang
I say shit a lot because shit works, right? Shit can be great, shit can be bad. But lately, everything is a shit storm or a shit show that kind of covers the waterfront, I think. But I will say this, all kidding aside, you have to meet the urgency of the moment with the urgency of the message. And I've always been big about being authentically me. And yes, so maybe you didn't hear profanity, but you kind of heard the urgency of what I thought people needed to know when I did the show on mainstream. And now that I'm on independent and digital, it's just a different, you know, ball game wholesale.
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Tim Miller
All right, well, folks, check out your subtext. Do you need to let loose a little bit right now? Do you want to take your hair out of the bun or, you know, kind of shake it out or morning mimosas? I mean, we are. We are unleashed now.
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Bulwark Host
Okay, I just.
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Tim Miller
The options are on the table here on the block pot.
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Katie Fang
I love it.
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Tim Miller
I want to talk about. We have a bunch of different cases. Last night, SCOTUS confirmed the Trump administration's efforts to ban trans soldiers in the.
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Bulwark Host
Military on a 6:3 vote.
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Tim Miller
So talk about that. Then we'll get to some of the other SCOTUS stuff.
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Katie Fang
So, Tim, let me just set the table for a second here, because I think this is really important context for people who are tuning in to consider. You've got a Naval aviator for 19 years flown more than 60 combat missions, including Iraq and Afghanistan. The United States Navy has spent more than $20 million on the training for this pilot. This is Commander Schilling, and Commander Schilling is one of the plaintiffs in the case that SCOTUS has now basically said, at this point, we're going to allow you, Commander Emily Schilling, to be booted out of the United States Navy despite all of the work that you have done and all of the money that has been spent simply because you decided to that you were going to transition in 2021. I mean, Tim, this is why this is a particularly outrageous moment, because the other federal courts that have been deciding this and that and the reason why it made it to scotus. They said, look, these are completely nefarious bans. These are completely nefarious executive orders by Donald Trump. There's no legitimate reason to discriminate against trans military service members. And yet, unfortunately, you have this decision. And it was an order that basically said the following, Tim. It basically said, look, if the Trump administration wants to file what we call a petition for writ of certiori, meaning that they want us, as in scotus, to be able to decide the case on its merits, then, okay, we, we may take this case and we may listen to this case. And if we do, this kind of, you know, ability for the Trump ban to keep on going and this, this complete evacuation of all trans military service members is going to be allowed until we render our judgment. But if we decide we're not going to take up this case, then automatically this stay is going to be terminated. But it's outrageous because, you know, tim, there's only 4,240 members, only 0.2% of more than 2 million military service members that identify as trans. And so it's very disappointing to see that we have this type of decision that came out of scotus. It doesn't mean it's the final say, but you know what, it's this type of stuff that's making a lot of us say who is really making the decisions as SCOTUS right now.
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Bulwark Host
It is so sick. And I think that the heavens have weighed in because I don't know if people could hear that, but the thunder in New Orleans is raining down. As you explained in detail, this, this woman who is like, who volunteered to serve in our military, who went there, who, it was in good standing. There are no issues. Who, who sacrificed to serve the country. The idea that we're going to discriminate, like, I kind of, regardless of what your opinion is, on the kind of edge trans cases. And like, I, I do think there are a lot of compl when it comes to trans folks while respecting their dignity. This is not complex. These trans soldiers and sailors and they were serving the military, they're serving the country at risk to themselves, putting themselves at risk, and they're being kicked out for no reason. There's been, there's no, no, they haven't even presented any, any like, legitimate reason to do it.
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Katie Fang
There's no evidence, there's no evidence that being a trans military service member means that you are dishonoring the uniform, dishonoring your commitment that you're making. And to your point, I'm not in military, I don't have the balls to go and do what they are doing. I mean, it's this, this commander is just one of, like I said, just a few. Only 0.2% of our active military. And yet she should be elevated and lionized and admired and respected for what she has done, because that type of sacrifice, not everybody is willing to do. And so it just kind of fits though, Tim, right, With an idea that Trump shits on the military. Trump does not respect it. He is. There's a reason why he's never served. Not only could he do it, but he certainly doesn't have the respect that the military deserves. And so I just wonder why you have all of you know, the other fellow service members not up in arms about this. No pun intended. Right. Not up in arms about the idea that there's going to be a total purge for absolutely no legitimate reason of trans military service members. And so, you know, you get these type of decisions and Tim, you got to lift your wounds and kind of hope that the right is done. But in the meantime, it doesn't stop the purging. And that's the most disappointing thing about this decision.
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Bulwark Host
Yeah, no, it's going to affect people. While this stuff keeps moving along, it's going to affect people that are serving. They've got to make decisions for their lives.
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Tim Miller
You know, look, most of the news you're subjected to 247 is bad or downright depressing about the future, especially when you have JVL on the podcast.
- [15:39]
Bulwark Host
And so it was so much out of control. A lot of you are thinking things.
- [15:43]
Tim Miller
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- [17:06]
Bulwark Host
You said something kind of provocative there at the end of the previous answer that I wanted to get to about who is calling the shots at the court. What is your biggest, give us your kind of just biggest picture view of what we've seen so far from scotus. Obviously, we've not even had a full term yet of SCOTUS because it feels like Trump 2.0 has been going on for a lifetime now. But it's, it's, we haven't even made it to the SCOTUS term, the formal SCOTUS term yet. But in these kind of preliminary rulings, what, what have you seen so far? What have you made of it? Because it's been kind of mixed, I would say. I don't know. What do you, what do you think?
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Katie Fang
I think it's been the surprise, people like Amy Coney Barrett coming forward and ruling on the side of the quote, unquote liberal justices. I mean, there's the predictable decisions that are made in terms the splits of the votes. I don't think you've seen anything too outrageous. But when we've seen people like Amy Coney Barrett step up and say, you know what? Not on my watch, you have to ask yourself, Tim, really, it's like these are all human beings, right? So you've got your Clarence Thomases and you know, what motivates him and you know what he's all about. But these are lifetime appointments. And I feel like somebody like Amy Coney Barrett probably went to SCOTUS and said, look, I've got like 20 children and for me, abortion's a big deal. And so Dobbs was a big deal. And, and that's maybe like, you know, we talk about one issue voters, maybe there's one issue SCOTUS justices, I don't know. But everything that Trump does violates any traditional norms of conservatism. So even if you look at the, you look at it from a strict constructionist or an originalist perspective for any of these people on scotus, you have to ask yourself, you and I both know that somebody like even Brett Kavanaugh, even though I just. The guy kind of skeeves me out. But I don't think that dude's breaking bread really with Donald Trump on a social basis. Right. You're not inviting him over to hang out with you.
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Congressman Greg Kazar
He's.
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Katie Fang
And so everything that Trump stands for flies in the face of what they, as in the conservative justices are supposed to be standing for. But they are the textbook example of kind of greed and avarice and grift and that type of energy. Not all of them, but the majority of them when it comes to the uber conservative, I guess, majority side of scotus.
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Bulwark Host
That's one way to look at it, right? I think there's a way to assess that is like these are political creatures, right? And even Roberts himself.
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Katie Fang
But they're not going to supposed to be.
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Tim Miller
I know they're not supposed to be.
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Bulwark Host
But I'm trying to analyze what we think is happening over there because. And we'll know more at the end of the, at the end of the term. But, but maybe they're thinking, okay, we've got to manage this. We don't want a full on war with the White House right now. We're going to pick spots like in Grego Garcia, et cetera. We're going to give them ones where it's more gray. Like, do you think that, I mean, at some level I know that's not what they're supposed to be and that is terrible. But like it's better than the worst case scenario that you hear from some folks in progressive circles, which is basically like they're just going to roll over for everything Trump wants to do. And we have, and the checks are gone. You know what I mean? So like, no, no, no. How do you assess it?
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Katie Fang
But look what happened with Abrego Garcia, right? You have this 90 decision that comes out and Donald Trump stands there and he lies to the American public and is like, well, that's not what my people told me. Well, you and I both know that's bullshit because I don't think that people are telling him something different. He knows exactly what the truth is when it comes to that decision. But now if you have a lifetime appointment, Tim, why are you not preserving your lifetime appointment job? Why are you not holding the line when it comes to the rule of law and telling Trump to go shove it? Because he's not listening to what you're saying. And I do think there's gotta be some buyer's remorse about allowing Trump to think that he is a king. I think this idea of presidential immunity, I think it literally has gone to his head. And I think it was so short sighted because maybe SCOTUS thought that Americans weren't stupid enough to put Trump back into office and that that decision would just kind of stand in perpetuity and just be a stain on scotus. But he did. You know, he snookered a whole bunch of damn people to put him back into the office. And now he is. And now he's like, well, I don't really have to listen because unitary theory allows me to do whatever the fuck I want to do because I'm the executive. Well, no, that's not really unitary theory, you dumb ass. And so again, critical thinking is important, people. And education's even better. It is a free for all in Trump 2.0. And I can say, though, you know, again, this decision on the TR trans military service members is one of the most disappointing because you didn't have to do that. You didn't have on an emergency application from the Trump administration then. You didn't have to say, you know what, we're gonna stay that injunction. What was the harm? So, I don't know. It was just incredibly disappointing.
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Tim Miller
Unleashed.
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Bulwark Host
Katie is out. Dumbass. Okay, what do we got coming down the pike here? We've got birthright citizenship. I think it's the next real big one. So let's talk about that.
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Katie Fang
Yeah, really quickly. So May 15, and this is rare. So remember, we just talked about an emergency application done by the Trump administration. Trump administration vis a vis the shoe fits. I called him Trump before on national television. I kind of like that better. Tramp administration. That was an emergency application for the trans military service member ban by the Trump administration. Now, yet another emergency application by the Trump administration concerning nationwide injunctions that were entered that are blocking Trump's executive order that pretty much would overturn the 14th Amendment birthright citizenship guarantee. And so you have federal judges in three different straits across the country that have entered preliminary injunctions nationwide that say that Trump's executive order cannot be implemented while cases are pending. Now, people seem to think that on May 15, the Supreme Court of the United States is going to decide whether the 14th Amendment is, poof, gone and not applicable anymore. That's not the case. It's a very narrow issue in front of SCOTUS on May 15. It's whether or not a nationwide injunction can be applied to everyone and anyone versus just the specific plaintiffs that have sued for relief in those particular cases. You want to know why that shit is not ridiculously Ironic. Now, so when the Trump administration likes their nationwide injunctions, they're fine with that, but when they don't like the nationwide injunctions, they want to bitch and moan and they want to run to the Supreme Court to get something done about it. Now, I will say that there are sitting justices on the Supreme Court that don't really love this idea of a nationwide injunction. They're very keen on the idea that you must be a plaintiff that has sustained some type of injury to go to court and get this temporary relief, et cetera. But in this instance, that is the only issue that is going to be heard on May 15th. And so I caution people, I say knowledge is power. You need to know that there's not going to be a ruling from scotus. But I will add this caveat, Tim. If the Supreme Court says that they are not going to allow a nationwide injunction to be applied while something is pending on birthright citizenship, then you and I both know that the practical effect would be that only the plaintiffs would get the protection versus other people who would then be kicked the hell out of the United States, which is a Trump administration specialty. So we gotta watch this case very carefully. Even though it's kind of a technical issue, it's still a very important issue for all Americans at this point.
- [24:11]
Bulwark Host
Yeah, no, a lot of people get screwed. In the meantime, we're already seeing this like, about, like the. It'll give them credit. And once people are deported, getting them back, you know, becomes a much more challenging prospect, you know, than if there's an injunction here. The other thing is, just because the 14th Amendment is so clear, just cause this birthright citizenship case is so clear, the SCOTUS stopping the nationwide injunction on.
- [24:33]
Tim Miller
This, even if they end up ruling.
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Bulwark Host
The right way on it eventually, like, basically would totally neuter these lower courts from being able to issue these types of injunctions, Right? Because if they're not going to uphold it on birthright citizenship, they're certainly not going to uphold it on more gray types of cases. Right? I mean, that would be another ramification.
- [24:53]
Katie Fang
And think about this. Matt Kacmaric, who is in Texas, and he's the king of Republican forum shopping cases, right? Everybody wants to run to him in Texas. He's the one who entered the nationwide ban on mifepristone, and that ended up winding its way to the Supreme Court, right? I mean, Biden in his administration, he listened to what the judges say. You know, I mean, these are the things that I'm saying is the hypocrisy of the GOP right now. I'm always troubled, too, because I don't know about you, but I feel like you always have a lot of former lawyers or lawyers who become politicians. I feel like that's the case. It's kind of the trend. And so if you, if you're a lawyer, you know, you have to abide by laws, you have to abide by orders, you have to abide by these things, Tim. And you have these GOP senators and House members that just sit there silently while everything in terms of institutions and norms and the rule of law just gets decimated along the way. So in light of that, I mean, I'm kind of wondering why we're not hearing more from our Republican members of Congress when they're seeing all of this bad stuff taking place, like the non compliance by the administration when it comes to the Supreme Court's ruling on Kilmar, Abrego, Garcia, et cetera. We're not seeing enough screaming from the rafters about non compliance from the GOP right now.
- [26:13]
Bulwark Host
So that's deal with scotus. Much more to come. We'll have to check back in with that one during, in the actual session. But I want to ask you about another issue. So obviously Trump's been targeting a lot of folks with, you know, removal of security clearances, demanding the DOJ investigate.
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Tim Miller
We've talked a lot about Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor here and the threats they're under. And I know that.
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Bulwark Host
I think Mark Zeid has now sued the administration over this. So talk to us about what the situation is in those cases and what kind of recourse these folks have at this point.
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Katie Fang
It's two words. It's political retribution. Three words. Illegal political retribution is what it is. So, yeah, kudos to Mark Said he is being represented by Abby Lowell, who we know left his firm to be able to go out on his own, to be able to represent people that are being targeted by the Trump administration. He's also working with Norm Eisen, who I've joined up with at a state Democracy Defenders fund to be able to litigate this case. Yeah, Mark is suing the Trump administration, the executive, And I think four or five federal agencies. Why? Because he and 15 other people basically got their security clearances revoked for no reason whatsoever. But it's. There is a reason. The reason being that Trump doesn't like Mark and others because they actually have the balls to go up against this administration. It's pretty wild, though. I gave this analogy the other day when I was Talking about with Norm Eisen and Jen Rubin, I said, consider the fact if you were working and you needed. You were a craftsman and you needed your toolkit, and one day Trump came along and said, you know what? Fuck it, I'm taking your toolkit. Why? Because I don't like the way you look, or I don't like what you said about me or whatever. And then you literally don't have your tools to be able to do your job. Mark needs his tools to do his job. He can't represent his clients. He's been told by odni, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, he can't even access a classified complaint against one of his clients right now because he doesn't have a classified clearance. This is the type of retributive conduct that is of a petty man child. The problem is it has huge repercussions for people like Chris Krabs and Miles Taylor and others, where it's not just, I can't do my job, it's now transcended it to, I'm now getting death threats and people want to come and kill me.
- [28:20]
Bulwark Host
I mean, so Chris had to leave his job.
- [28:22]
Katie Fang
Yeah. So think about it, right? It's not just that. And you know, we grow up with bullies, right? We have bullies in our lives, all of our lives. We have people. And maybe as we get older, we are able to manage bullies a little bit better. But when Trump uses his bully pulpit, literally as a bully, we have a serious problem. And that is why it's so important to shine a light on these lawsuits and shine a light on this. Because candidly, it is not melodramatic to say that you could be. You, any American could be targeted. Whether you're being targeted by Doge and the stupidity of Doge and the cruelty and the recklessness and the destruction of Doge, or Trump decides that he doesn't like you standing up one day and saying what you're saying. Or, you know, he decides, I'm going to declare martial law because you took to the streets and you decided you wanted to protest for your rights. I mean, you literally could be next. Any American could be targeted. And so it's important to shine a light on this type of atrocities, of what's happening.
- [29:20]
Tim Miller
All right? We have a lot of other legal topics to get to, probably more important.
- [29:23]
Bulwark Host
Ones than this, but I can't help myself. I was on your substack, and I.
- [29:28]
Tim Miller
See that you've been covering the Diddy trial.
- [29:30]
Bulwark Host
I know nothing about the Diddy trial. It is like, I only have so much room in my brain. I have to do only Trump stuff, only what's happening in politics and basketball. I don't have room in my brain for other trials, so I know nothing. So you're talking to somebody who's come from another planet. Tell me what's happening in the Diddy trial. Is he gonna go to jail? Like what? Are there any fun anecdotes from it?
- [29:52]
Katie Fang
He's been in jail since last year. When he was arrested, he was not able to post a bond because he wasn't given the chance to post a bond, which makes sense because he's basically looking at life in prison. Right now. He has a five count federal indictment that's being prosecuted by the Southern District of New York. And because of that and the nature of the charges, he is facing this jury trial now. They're in the process of jury selection, Tim. And a lot of people are like, why should we care about P. Diddy? Because a lot of people don't care about P. Diddy. I tell people you should care because this is somebody. And of course it's allegedly. But I've looked at the indictment, I've looked at this evidence. Somebody who used his celebrity status to abuse and traffic. And there are a lot of victims. The indictment has four specific victims, one of whom is Cassie Ventura, who was a girlfriend and a protege of Sean Cone Holmes. And he was seen in a video from 2016 that was released last year beating the hell out of Cassie Ventura and then dragging her back to this parties called freak offs, which were male prostitutes and other men having sex with young women that were trafficked from across state lines to be able to participate in these freak offs that were intimidated and coerced to not go forward and come forward to law enforcement and to tell their stories. And so that's why you should care. It is along the lines of the Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, Harvey Weinstein. It's of that particular ilk.
- [31:16]
Bulwark Host
Do I know any of the victims? Was Bieber a victim? I've seen some Bieber memes. I'm like a boomer. I don't know truth from reality. I'm like a boomer. Who's on. Who's getting this information via Facebook memes.
- [31:27]
Katie Fang
Oh God, you're getting it from Facebook, of all places.
- [31:30]
Bulwark Host
No, I mean, at that level, I'm not actually on Facebook, but I have a Facebook meme level knowledge. So not Bieber.
- [31:36]
Katie Fang
So no, not Justin Bieber. But what I appreciate about that question though, Tim, is think about all the celebrities that surrounded him, how many people were complicit, how many people knew. How many people were also kind of cowed into submission, intimidated or scared that if they spoke up about P. Diddy Bad Boy for Life, Sean Combs, that maybe something would happen to them? He has prior incidents of violence that have been documented, and he's been arrested before. Do you remember that shooting with JLO and a nightclub? I mean, there's a lot of stuff. Stuff that's surrounding him. And the kind of overarching question is, can you separate yourself from your public Persona, from who you are? His claim is from his defense. It was completely consensual with all of these victims. And I'm a swinger, so you can't judge me for my lifestyle. But when you push forward into the public and their consumption is of you being some gangster rapper kind of guy, is a jury gonna be able to say, you know what? I'm gonna disengage from that idea of what you are publicly and believe what you're telling me in court. So we'll see.
- [32:34]
Bulwark Host
Was it all women, though? Was it all women?
- [32:36]
Katie Fang
All the victims are women. Yeah.
- [32:38]
Bulwark Host
Okay.
- [32:39]
Katie Fang
Well, I don't know, but the ones in the indictment. The ones in the indictment, okay.
- [32:44]
Bulwark Host
Bad Boy in prison for life. Katie Fang, congrats on your new endeavor. Let's stay in touch. We're in the substack world together. We'll be doing live substacks and appreciate you.
- [32:53]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Appreciate it.
- [32:53]
Bulwark Host
And everybody else. Stick around for Congressman Greg. Kazakhstan are.
- [33:10]
Tim Miller
All right. We are back. He's a Democratic congressman from Texas. He represents parts of Austin and San Antonio. He's the new chairman of the House Progressive Caucus. It's Congressman Greg Kazar. How you doing, man?
- [33:19]
Congressman Greg Kazar
I'm doing good. Great to meet you, Tim. Thanks for having me.
- [33:22]
Tim Miller
Good to meet you, too. You had to be suited. You took your jacket off. You know, we're in podcast. The manosphere is where it's all at these days. Okay. You're supposed to just wear a big necklace.
- [33:31]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Well, I saw the chill pinto beans background and the necklace. Yeah, I know.
- [33:37]
Tim Miller
Yeah. You got to wear one of those big Mark Zuckerberg necklaces now that you're kind of hitting middle age. And, you know, it's just. That's what's happened. That's what's happening out there.
- [33:44]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Maybe that's how we get the votes back, man.
- [33:47]
Tim Miller
We'll talk about that at the end. I want to talk about the new administration first.
- [33:50]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Okay.
- [33:51]
Tim Miller
And there's just so much shit happening Obviously. And so I kind of just want to do open ended, like, what is the thing that is alarming you the most? As you're watching this day in, day.
- [34:01]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Out, it's really hard to pick just one thing. It feels like the news from yesterday, I want to come onto your podcast and rail about it. And then there's worse news today. And that's just how it's been for over 100 days. But what I've been telling folks, there was a group of fired federal workers sitting on the House steps yesterday as I came out of voting next to a group of high schoolers, and people huddled up and asked me kind of a similar question. And I think what is alarming and at root of so most much of this and where they're and what I think they're making worse is like this baseline cynicism that nothing we ever do together can ever work. And what I've really learned, I mean, relatively new to Congress, you know, I've only been here 2 1/2 years. What I've really seen is how deliberate the extreme right wing strategy is to break stuff and then complain about it and then campaign about how it's broken and then break it more. That kind of works alongside the law of entropy, that it's easier to break stuff than to make it. You know, like a two year old can go and shatter that microphone in front of you. But it's pretty complicated. It takes a lot of step people to put it together. And if people stop believing that we can make things better, then you just turn against each other and you kind of undo the entire Democratic project of working alongside one another. And so what's alarming to me is how hard it might be even if we figure out, and we should need to figure out how to take this thing back, take our government back into the hands of people that want to make things just how much stuff is broken and how much of an opening they've created for people to keep cynically breaking things, campaigning and winning power that.
- [35:46]
Tim Miller
Way, man, you put it that way and you're like, boy, this is a bigger challenge than you even think. Right? It's like it's going to be one.
- [35:51]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Thing that's part of what I learn every day around here is that actually it can get worse.
- [35:56]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's one thing to say that's like, oh, let's beat these guys in the midterms. And that is an achievable goal. Right. And that is kind of really a negative goal. Honestly, in some ways, you guys are the dccc, not the Progressive Caucus, per se, but the DCCC just has to prove that they've broken things and hurt people. Right, but then what? You know, I do think that that creates a big challenge.
- [36:17]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Then what? And I hate here at the top of the podcast to be the doom and gloom guy.
- [36:21]
Tim Miller
This is a doomer pod, man. That's great. Welcome.
- [36:24]
Congressman Greg Kazar
That's part of the doom scroll for me. One of the tracks that I think we might be on, you know, in the multiverse here, which. Which world I think we might be in, is one where we can win the midterms and provide some check on Trump in a year and a half, which, of course is critical and we've got to do. But then if we go, okay, as long as we just point out that they break stuff, and then we win the midterm election, which in the midterms is much more voters that read the news and we just go and win it back that way that we kind of pat ourselves on the back, clean our hands, and say, hey, we're good for the next presidential, and then we go get our lunch eaten by J.D. vance or somebody else like that for eight years after that. And so if 100 days of this was rough, like, 12 years of it to me is unacceptable. And we've got to be thinking much bigger than just winning in the next year and a half. It's like, what does it take to beat the cynicism that's at the heart of what we're dealing with right now?
- [37:21]
Tim Miller
All right, well, I was going to get into Democratic stuff second, but we'll just flip it now. Set it on the table. No, no, let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah, you set it on the table. We'll do a little bit of what does that look like? And then we can come back to talk about how. How terrible Trump is again at the end. Plenty of material there because, man, I've been watching your stuff. You had a Politico piece, a New York Times piece. I kind of wanted to have you on and talk about it. And there is a move, as I mentioned, you're in the Progressive Caucus. Were you officially a squad member or were you squad adjacent?
- [37:51]
Congressman Greg Kazar
I never got the official pin or whatever. It is secret that I think it's mostly a creature of the media.
- [37:58]
Tim Miller
All right, so we're gonna call you kind of in the swaddle extended cinematic universe. And you're at. You've done some town halls in red districts, which is great. Done some events with Bernie and aoc and there's this view out there that the path back for Democrats to winning working class voters is to really lean in on economic populism. And I don't necessarily disagree with that, even if all those policies probably aren't my preferred priors. But what I do wonder is if that's even true. And I do wonder if these voters, the working class voters that Democrats have lost, lost, are like cross pressured. And while they might be interested in whatever, pre child care, bigger minimum wage, all those economic populist issues, that what is holding them back is cultural issues. Right. Feeling like Democrats are out of touch for their concerns about whatever it is, crime, immigration, you pick whatever it is. And I wonder how you think about that.
- [38:54]
Congressman Greg Kazar
It's a relief, to be honest, to be able to be on a podcast like this where we can really flesh those hard questions out. Because a lot of times, you know, you get like a minute on these TV shows and you gotta just go right in. But I think you're asking a real question that should keep folks up at night.
- [39:10]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [39:11]
Congressman Greg Kazar
And I think first I want to give you a brief anecdote about campaigning for Kamala Harris in Nevada and Sparks, Nevada, talking to Latino construction workers, and then sort of pivot that into a question about your question.
- [39:25]
Tim Miller
Cool.
- [39:26]
Congressman Greg Kazar
So, you know, I campaigned all over Texas, but then specifically went to Nevada for Harris's campaign and pretty much knew we were toast. I didn't know, but really felt we were toast talking with groups of Latino voters both in Vegas and north of Vegas and across the state. There was one time where we got together with about three, four dozen Latino, mostly workers in the trades, be it folks doing H Vac maintenance or in the building and construction trades. And. And I remember a really clear conversation with one guy. It was a bunch of folks who said I'd voted for, that they voted for Obama, voted for Hillary, voted for Joe, but just weren't going to be able to vote for Kamala this time. And he said, well, I just feel like you're so much more focused. When I asked the guy, like, well, what changed your mind this time? You voted for Biden Harris just recently, you voted for Hillary.
- [40:20]
Tim Miller
Hillary.
- [40:21]
Congressman Greg Kazar
And he said to me, I just feel like, even though Trump is terrible in so many ways, I feel like the Democratic Party is focused on not my stuff. You know, I go and work seven days a week, I pull seven 12s and then suddenly building and construction goes down for a couple months. And that's just my life. I'm trying to figure out how to put my kid through school. And I feel like y' all are focused on other stuff other than my daily life. And I, and I push him.
- [40:52]
Tim Miller
Like I push lots identity.
- [40:53]
Congressman Greg Kazar
I push him just like you're pushing guys, like, what other stuff? And he's like, you know, other stuff. And I was like, do you mean, for example, issues with gay communities? Like, yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's what was. That was my guess. It might maybe could have been something else, but that's why it was my guess. And he said yes. And I think the question we've got to ask ourselves is why is it that know President Joe Biden was like the building stuff president, I mean the infrastructure law and frankly a lot of the construction coming out of the inflation Reduction act were like some of his biggest achievements. How is it that Republicans were able to raise the salience so much on those cultural issues? And what does the Democratic Party need to change that? It doesn't seem like to people that our leading number one issue is one where a lot of our base voters are cross pressured on, like you said. And what I said to him was, look, my views on LGBTQ issues are clear. I'm pro equality. I think that we should end discrimination against all forms of discrimination against all forms of people. But my main stuff that I work on is making sure you get actually paid overtime for the extra hours you work, that there's enough construction that you aren't out of work for multiple months, and that, that your employer shouldn't be allowed to screw people over and sometimes not even pay them after doing weeks or months of work. And so even if we might disagree on some of those issues, if you knew that this was really our main thing and that today's Republicans are trying to get rid of overtime pay and trying to do all of these other things that I know you talk about a lot on your podcast. He was like, yeah, I would totally vote for that. I mean, that's easy. And so. So to me, I think the core question is why aren't those economic messages breaking through? If indeed oftentimes it's what we're working on. And part of what economic populism does is it draws a sharp enough contrast with Republicans where we don't just seem kind of in between, or Republican light, where we can really say no. There is a real difference about what we're offering. On the economy, though, that's something like trans collegiate sports. Trump can't go and make that a major issue in our politics for people. And I want to get back to you here in one second. The last thing I'll mention on it is I'm about to go to a hearing on trans fencing. I mean, on the Doge Committee. Marjorie Taylor Greene chairs it. The hearing is on trans fencing.
- [43:17]
Tim Miller
Like sword fighting or like building fences?
- [43:20]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Oh, yeah.
- [43:21]
Tim Miller
Sword fighting. Fencing.
- [43:22]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Sword fighting.
- [43:23]
Tim Miller
Okay, got it. There are too many trans people sword fighting. That's a big problem. I see how that's an issue for her.
- [43:29]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Yeah. You know, according to MC in Rome.
- [43:31]
Tim Miller
Georgia, where her district is, do they have a single fencer? Do they have a cis fencer in Rome, Georgia?
- [43:37]
Congressman Greg Kazar
That's a good question. But there are 10 trans collegiate athletes in the NCAA right now. You know, there are, like, 30 members of our damn committee. And so it's not 10,010. So, of course, discrimination against LGBTQ people, real issue. But, you know, like, our committee shouldn't be doing this work determining who it can and can't across a variety of sports, go and participate at the collegiate or elite level. Like, come on. But the hard question Democrats have to answer for ourselves is, how can we let that kind of an issue become something that Agent Daily Guy living his life in Nevada is asking me about when I sit down with him as a member of Congress who traveled across the country to talk to him, how is it, you know, I understand what the Republican tactics are, but how is it the Democratic Party needs to change our tactics so that there isn't a vacuum that Republican officials can fill on issues like this? And in my view, economic populism is our best response, which is we should be saying things that are actually interesting and controversial enough and different enough that people actually really hear us, instead of just saying, defend Social Security, which polls at, like, 90%, but nobody hears you, why don't we say that it's crazy that the Mark Zuckerbergs and Jeff Bezos of the world don't really pay into Social Security. They pay in, like, one day. But the tax rate for Social Security is way higher for you or me and way higher for a school teacher and for a sanitation worker and a custodian and H Vac maintenance guy than it is on those guys. We can save it, but maybe we can expand it and make your Social Security check higher and pull every senior in this country out of poverty, literally. If we just say those big guys have to just literally pay the same rate that we pay, that's not the message. I don't think anybody could argue that that was how people felt that the Harris campaign's core message was Was those guys are making you work more hours. They think you're working those hours to make them rich and they're screwing you over, not just on the job, but they're screwing you over in the government. I think that would stand out to people a lot more than kind of where we stand right now.
- [45:58]
Tim Miller
I hear the embers of you working with the moderate types because I'm like, can we also means test. So Mark Zuckerberg isn't taking Social Security. He's not only paying in enough, but he's not not he's taking it, which I don't get. Anyway, let's try to hash out there because sometimes I do feel like people who have a more moderate temperament like me and progressives, like we talk past each other where there are a lot of areas of agreement. Here's one area of agreement that we have. The Democrats need to be much better about making economic issues the main thing. And I think doing more aggressive communications that create contrast with the oligarchs. Like I'm for all that. That all makes sense to me. I go back to the Carville thing. Voters only know three things about a candid. One of those three things should be you're gonna be fighting for them and not the rich people if you're a Democrat. Right. And I don't think that was true for Kamala or really probably or Biden or Hillary for that matter. Here's my issue, though. Let's say we agree on that. We got a Senate race coming up next year in Texas. You're in a red state. If a Democrat is gonna win that Senate race and beat John Cornyn or God love him, maybe Ken Paxton, if we agree that that Democrat should make some kind of fighting the oligarchy like the number one issue that they have, the key issue. Let's just put that on the table. We agree. And that's the one thing we want vot about that Democrat. Can they win though if they're still seen as a just down the line Democrat on all the social issues? Like, don't they also have to demonstrate some distance from the national party on cultural issues if they're going to succeed in Texas?
- [47:29]
Congressman Greg Kazar
I'm chairman of the Progressive Caucus.
- [47:31]
Tim Miller
Right, I know. And there's a hard question.
- [47:34]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm, I'm. Yeah. I'm chairman of the Progressive Caucus. And it is very important or there to be some number, some part of our party that adheres to our long standing tradition of being willing to stand for vulnerable people and causes that may not be popular yet. You know, it was progressives in the Progressive Caucus that were out there on gay marriage before it was a popular issue. It's Progressive Caucus members that are gonna be first out there to say if somebody's escaping from war and getting killed, that we've got to figure out that our country actually helps support people in that situation and doesn't repeat our mistakes from World War II, where we turned away entire ships of Jewish refugees just to go back to the Holocaust camps. Somebody's got to do that. And I think that that's a key part of progressives role. And progressives need to recognize what issues we are completely on the front foot about, because actually our ideas are more popular than the Democratic Party brand and on which issues we're still doing persuasion. And so I'm here to admit on your podcast, on your show that I understand that the mainline Democratic Party view and to flip a red state. People that are campaigning to flip a red state are likely going to have. Have views on some of these social issues that are not as progressive as mine. Like, okay, that's fine. You know what I mean?
- [49:08]
Tim Miller
Okay. But are they not going to get attacked? I mean, look, I think that there.
- [49:12]
Bulwark Host
Have been a lot of Democrats who've.
- [49:13]
Tim Miller
Been kind of afraid to run in red states. Look, I'm in Louisiana, right? I just saw a tweet yesterday about John Bel Edwards. They're floating him running for Senate. I think that's really big. Long shot. More of a long shot than Texas, but let's just say he's pro life.
- [49:25]
Bulwark Host
And then I saw a tweet of.
- [49:26]
Tim Miller
People replying to him was like, the Democrats can't have a pro life candidate. And it's like, well, why even run in Louisiana then? Like, why even try to compete? You know, I don't know, like, can they have the room to do that?
- [49:38]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Yeah, look, I don't think anybody should run their campaign based on their Twitter replies.
- [49:42]
Tim Miller
Well, no, of course not.
- [49:43]
Bulwark Host
Of course not.
- [49:44]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Yeah. Yeah. But. But I. Here's what I. Here's what I think. I don't think that it is just snow cut and dry. Like, here's where a poll is, here's what you should just say, et cetera. Sure, I do understand. I mean, and Kamala Harris, for example, ran a campaign with immigration views that were significantly more to the center than, for example, my preferred immigration platform. Fine. The question is, you know, how do you calibrate your policy in a way that still speaks to your values and still speaks to your base and is still where most voters are. And I know that, that, that would be of course, a really hard question for somebody to answer that's trying to flip Louisiana or flip Texas. But here's where I think I have something to really add, which is the beginning point of your question. Even as somebody sorts that out and as they should sort that out. If on those economic issues we don't contrast enough, make them simple enough and make them bold and big enough, then and the immigration conversation or whatever other social issue conversation can then just dominate the field. And we can't allow it to dominate the field because at the end of the day, even somebody more conservative on those social issues is not going to be murderous on those issues. Right. No matter how tough you are on it. Democrats aren't going to be for freaking sending people to foreign prison camps in El Salvador without due process. None of us are going to be for bullying trans kid and denying them health care and telling their parents they gotta get on a plane to save their kid's life. So at the end of the day, part of our work needs to be to say, sure, of course we need a big tent. Of course we can't have purity tests for who can and can't be in our party in a way where we're really exclusive and exclusionary. And I think the progressive movement needs to learn from and think about how we need to add more people, people to our tent. So I think that maybe goes to answering that part of your question. But what we can't forget, and this is where maybe people once think of it as progressive. But fine, if people want to call this moderate or old school or whatever, I don't think we can have our economic ideas continue to be so incremental, so hard to understand that it just isn't going to make much of a difference to people. Like, you might get this specific kind of help if you got two kids and you make more or less than this. And like we, I just think we've got to get to a place where we say no, we're going to pull every senior and kid in this country out of poverty. No. We're going to raise wages for millions of people. Yeah. We're going to crack down on corporate price gouging in a huge way. We're going to tax the billionaires and stock trading by members of Congress and fight for you. That's economically populist. You want to call it progressive or do you want to call it what a lot more moderate members are out there fighting for? I care less about what it's called, I think that we just have not drawn that level of contrast. And I think that only leaves us with trying to lightly calibrate on some of these social issues, and that ain't working on its own.
- [52:45]
Tim Miller
All right, last thing. I know you have this important fencing hearing to get to, but we do have one big agreement on what you just said in there, and that is on disappearing people and sending them to El Salvador. That's happening from Texas, from your state. We were just reading the big story about Neri Alvarado. He's the guy with the autism awareness tattoo. He's Dallas, other part of the state from you. But still, are there more things Democrats can be doing about this? Should people be doing more about this? How can people pressure the administration? Because I don't know, man. If Joe Rogan, who's there, who might be in your district, actually in Austin, if Joe Rogan can use this, I feel like Democrats can actually be on the front foot on this. So just talk about that real quick.
- [53:20]
Congressman Greg Kazar
It's really important for us to not just think that on immigration issues, we're on the back foot and on the defense forever. We have to go on the offense. Because what the Trump administration is doing is not just abhorrent. It is deeply unpopular and raw and seen as wrong by a large number of people that voted for Donald Trump. And we have to go and talk to those folks. And people understand that eroding due process for everyday people in this country is dangerous for everyone done in this country. And we can remember that it was just seven years ago where the. The people, Democrats, but actually people all across the country were actually on offense on immigration vis a vis Donald Trump. People said, these kids being put in cages is wrong. Moms being separated from their kids is wrong. So we can't just go beyond defense on this issue. We have to go out there and say, say, look, most of the people that they're arresting in some of these raids have no criminal history whatsoever. Law enforcement resources are being taken away from going after drug trafficking and gun trafficking, and it's being turned towards arresting somebody with an autism awareness tattoo. And then, though, they're taking our taxpayer money to pay a foreign dictator to put somebody in a prison camp. And then the Supreme Court is saying, bring them back. And Trump is saying, no. I mean, that's like, we can't be scared to go on offense on those sorts of issues. And I think that as progressives, I'm willing to again say here on your podcast that we've got to think about communicating those issues in a way that doesn't just energize our existing people, but adds and brings people in. Because I'll admit seven or eight years ago I think a lot of folks treated Trump as a one time aberration instead of this is actually a longstanding real challenge, which means we've got to bring more people into our tent to be able to win democratically against somebody that would like to see our country not run that way.
- [55:23]
Tim Miller
Amen, brother. All right, to be continued. Much more. Thanks for coming on the pod. I know you've got this really important work. I mean really important work. Who knows, we might need to do a nut check on fencers and so we can't get to the rest of the pod.
- [55:36]
Congressman Greg Kazar
It is really sad that I I but I do think that it begs the real question, man, as I head over there. It begs the real question of, you know, how sick is it that you go and pick on folks that are already discriminated against, already having trouble? It's the oldest trick in the tyranny book and we've got to find a better way to fight it. So I appreciate it.
- [55:58]
Tim Miller
Amen, man. We'll talk to you soon.
- [56:00]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Thank.
- [56:04]
Katie Fang
You.
- [56:07]
F
If you're my life in the devil's workshop and evil doing is your spill and trouble and mischief is all you live for. You know damn well that God you'll go to hell so you go to.
- [56:31]
Congressman Greg Kazar
Hell.
- [56:35]
F
So you're living high my dear and rid off the fat of the land Just don't dispose of your natural flow Cause you know damn well right now you're going to hit hell oh you're going to hell. Hell where you're not too so where you pay for your sin keep what you're chilling wrong the one willing Cause you know damn well that's a beautiful they'll go to hell oh, they'll go to hell. Man and woman were created to live for eternity but an echo they hate from the tree of hate so you know damn well that they'll go to hell. Oh, they'll go to hell.
- [57:59]
Tim Miller
The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.