The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1037 – Katie Fang and Greg Casar: Trump & Co Are the Real Flag Burners

Release Date: May 7, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Katie Fang (Legal Analyst, Independent Journalist, and Trial Lawyer) and Congressman Greg Casar (Democratic Representative from Texas)

Introduction to Episode and Guests

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes legal analyst Katie Fang and Democratic Congressman Greg Casar to discuss pressing political issues surrounding the Trump administration and the broader implications for liberal democracy in the United States.

Critique of DHS Self-Deportation Ads

Tim Miller opens the discussion by addressing recent advertisements run by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), featuring Governor Kristi Noem, advocating for self-deportation. Miller expresses strong disapproval:

"The [DHS] ads are running grotesque self-deportation messages... they are defiling their birthright as Americans. They are the flag burners."
(00:32)

He criticizes the DHS for targeting law-abiding individuals and misusing taxpayer dollars, emphasizing the harmful impact of such propaganda on vulnerable communities.

Katie Fang’s Background and Departure from MSNBC

Katie Fang shares her professional journey, detailing her transition from MSNBC to independent media. She explains her balancing act between running a law firm and providing legal analysis on television:

"I was always a full-time trial lawyer running my own law firm... but I loved doing the TV analysis."
(07:15)

Fang highlights the challenges of maintaining her legal practice while engaging in media roles, ultimately moving to independent platforms to better align her professional and personal passions.

SCOTUS and Trans Military Ban Decision

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) affirming the Trump administration's efforts to ban transgender individuals from military service with a 6:3 vote. Katie Fang discusses the case of Commander Emily Schilling, a seasoned Navy aviator being forcibly removed due to her decision to transition:

"Commander Schilling... is one of the plaintiffs... SCOTUS has now basically said... we are going to allow you... to be booted out of the Navy."
(11:01)

Fang underscores the lack of legitimate grounds for this discrimination, noting that transgender service members represent a mere 0.2% of the military. The decision illustrates SCOTUS's troubling alignment with administration policies despite previous court rulings favoring transgender rights.

SCOTUS and Birthright Citizenship Injunctions

Katie Fang elaborates on an upcoming SCOTUS decision set for May 15, which addresses whether nationwide injunctions can be applied broadly or only to specific plaintiffs in cases challenging the 14th Amendment's birthright citizenship:

"If the Supreme Court says that they are not going to allow a nationwide injunction... only the plaintiffs would get the protection versus other people who would then be kicked the hell out of the United States."
(24:10)

Fang warns that a ruling against nationwide injunctions could severely impact birthright citizenship protections, exacerbating the Trump administration's efforts to alter foundational aspects of American citizenship law.

Political Retribution and Security Clearances

The conversation shifts to instances of political retribution, where individuals like Mark Zeid, Chris Krebs, and Miles Taylor have had their security clearances revoked. Katie Fang characterizes this as illegal and politically motivated:

"It's illegal political retribution... Trump decides that he doesn't like you... he's using his bully pulpit."
(26:43)

She emphasizes the broader implications for democracy, highlighting how such actions undermine the ability of key figures to perform their duties and erode trust in governmental institutions.

Diddy Trial Overview

Katie Fang provides an overview of the ongoing trial against Sean "Diddy" Combs, drawing parallels to other high-profile cases involving celebrity misconduct:

"He's facing a jury trial... similar to Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, Harvey Weinstein."
(31:16)

Fang details the charges against Combs, including abuse and trafficking, and discusses the societal importance of holding influential figures accountable for their actions.

Interview with Congressman Greg Casar: Democratic Strategy and Economic Populism

Congressman Greg Casar delves into the strategic challenges facing the Democratic Party, particularly the need to prioritize economic populism over cultural issues to reclaim working-class voters. He recounts an interaction with Latino construction workers in Nevada to illustrate voter disillusionment:

"I just feel like you're so much more focused on... my daily life... you're focusing on other stuff."
(39:25)

Casar argues that Democrats must strengthen their economic messaging to resonate with voters who feel neglected by the party's current focus on social issues. He advocates for bold, clear policies that contrast sharply with Republican agendas, such as raising wages and expanding Social Security.

"We've got to say, no, we're going to pull every senior and kid in this country out of poverty... raise wages... tax the billionaires."
(44:10)

He emphasizes the importance of economic populism as a means to unify diverse voter bases and challenge the entrenched cynicism toward democratic institutions.

Immigration Policies and Democrat Offensive Strategy

Continuing the discussion, Congressman Casar highlights the necessity for Democrats to take an offensive stance on immigration policy, countering the Trump administration's unpopular and harsh measures. He calls for proactive communication strategies that emphasize the unjust targeting of non-criminal immigrants and the misallocation of law enforcement resources.

"What the Trump administration is doing is not just abhorrent... we have to go on the offense."
(53:19)

Casar stresses that addressing these issues head-on is crucial for preventing further erosion of democratic norms and protecting vulnerable communities.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode draws to a close, both guests reiterate the urgent need for strategic shifts within the Democratic Party to effectively counteract the Trump administration's policies and restore faith in liberal democracy. Congressman Casar underscores the importance of economic-focused campaigns and proactive immigration policies as key areas for action.

"We've got to shine a light on these lawsuits and shine a light on this... anyone could be targeted."
(55:22)

The episode concludes with a shared commitment to advocating for policies that protect and empower marginalized populations while challenging the systemic undermining of democratic principles.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller:
  "They are the criminals. They're kidnapping people and sending them to a foreign torture prison with no due process."
  (00:32)

• Katie Fang:
  "They're trying to intimidate people who are not criminals... bullying people who are law abiding."
  (02:30)

• Congressman Greg Casar:
  "We've got to say, no, we're going to pull every senior and kid in this country out of poverty... raise wages... tax the billionaires."
  (44:10)

• Katie Fang:
  "Illegal political retribution is what it is."
  (26:43)

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast provides a comprehensive analysis of the challenges facing liberal democracy in the current political climate. Through incisive commentary and expert insights from Katie Fang and Congressman Greg Casar, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the strategic imperatives necessary for the Democratic Party to effectively combat the Trump administration's policies and restore democratic integrity.