Episode Summary: The Bulwark Podcast – S2 Ep1038: Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin: The Power of 'No'

Release Date: May 8, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin, co-executive directors of Indivisible, a prominent grassroots movement aimed at countering the Trump agenda and reinforcing liberal democracy in the United States. The discussion delves deep into the origins of Indivisible, the strategies employed to mobilize grassroots resistance, the current political climate, and the challenges of engaging younger generations in activism.

1. Origins of Indivisible: From a Simple Guide to a National Movement

Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin recount the humble beginnings of Indivisible, which started as a 23-page Google Doc released in December 2016. Initially intended as a guide for resisting the Trump administration by leveraging effective grassroots organizing tactics—drawn from their experiences observing the Tea Party—they were astonished by the rapid and widespread adoption of their guide.

Leah Greenberg [03:08]: “We thought our friends would read it. We thought they would, like, maybe share it with their families when they went home over Christmas.”

The guide's unexpected popularity catalyzed the formation of thousands of local groups across the nation, transforming Indivisible from a simple document into a launching pad for a formidable grassroots movement.

Ezra Levin [02:07]: “We formed the Indivisible national organization after seeing such incredible grassroots energy and local groups forming everywhere.”

2. Strategies for Effective Grassroots Organizing

The core strategy underpinning Indivisible revolves around leveraging the incentives that drive elected officials—primarily, the desire for reelection and maintaining a supportive coalition. By organizing locally, activists can hold their representatives accountable through consistent engagement and pressure.

Leah Greenberg [06:34]: “You show up at town halls, you make them answer questions about the things that they don't necessarily want to talk about. It's all just about how do you systematically move the pieces so that your elected officials have the incentives to do what you want and do less of what you don't want.”

Tim Miller probes into how these strategies have evolved in the current political landscape, noting a shift from immediate, large-scale protests to sustained, organized grassroots efforts.

3. The Current Political Climate: Authoritarian Breakthrough and Institutional Collapse

Greenberg and Levin discuss the unique challenges posed by the current administration, highlighting a swift and significant collapse of institutional support for democratic norms. Unlike previous periods where institutions took a stand, many are now accommodating the administration's agenda, which has emboldened authoritarian tendencies.

Leah Greenberg [09:40]: “Regular people were pretty clear that they were going to push back. What changed was that corporations did not put out the statement saying, we stand in solidarity with democracy.”

Ezra Levin emphasizes the resilience of grassroots movements in the face of institutional failures, underscoring the importance of everyday citizens taking active roles in defending democracy.

Ezra Levin [10:28]: “There are normal, everyday people organizing a broad-based, ideologically diverse, geographically distributed movement of pro-democracy people organizing. That's what works, that's what saves democracy.”

4. Positive Outcomes and Successes

Despite the dire political environment, Greenberg and Levin highlight several successes achieved by Indivisible and the broader pro-democracy movement. Notable victories include halting harmful policies like the Obamacare repeal and preventing child separations at the border.

Ezra Levin [14:20]: “We kicked his ass up and down Wisconsin in a Supreme Court race. Donald Trump's approval rating is at 40%.”

They also observe a strengthening of Democratic politicians who are now more responsive and bold in their opposition to authoritarian measures, a shift driven by direct voter engagement and pressure.

5. Engaging Younger Generations: The Gen Z Challenge

A significant concern addressed in the episode is the difficulty in mobilizing Gen Z activists. The younger generation, shaped by unique challenges such as the COVID-19 pandemic and global conflicts, displays different engagement patterns compared to older cohorts.

Leah Greenberg [38:06]: “There are young people who have been out there... but they have generally experienced the system as one that has not served them.”

Ezra Levin acknowledges the gap and outlines Indivisible's efforts to bridge it by hiring youth organizers and exploring new media strategies to connect with younger activists.

Ezra Levin [42:12]: “We just hired on somebody from NextGen, one of the lead youth organizers, to lead up our new media operations.”

6. Overcoming Fear and Building Collective Courage

The discussion also touches on the pervasive fear among potential activists, especially those from vulnerable communities. The administration's tactics aim to marginalize dissent and intimidate protestors, making it essential to foster a culture of courage and collective action.

Ezra Levin [23:07]: “The fear is real... but that's the plan. That is their goal, is to spread that fear.”

Leah Greenberg adds that while the threat is universal, it's unevenly distributed, necessitating that those with fewer personal risk factors step forward to lead the charge.

Leah Greenberg [26:24]: “People who understand that because they don't have quite as many risk factors right now for themselves personally, it is more incumbent on them to step forward.”

7. The Power of 'No': Unifying Diverse Voices Against Authoritarianism

A central theme of the episode is the power of collectively saying "no" to authoritarianism, encapsulated in Indivisible's upcoming event on June 14th—Donald Trump's birthday. This nationwide protest aims to unify individuals across the political spectrum around a common cause: rejecting autocratic rule.

Ezra Levin [33:22]: “When you look at the world at creeping authoritarianism and the movements that push back successfully against them, they did not agree on what the ruling party should do after the authoritarian was taken down... We have to build a unified opposition that says no.”

Tim Miller probes the effectiveness of this unifying message, especially among diverse and younger audiences.

8. Strategic Advocacy: Balancing Specific Issues with Broad Opposition

Greenberg and Levin discuss the strategy behind framing protests and advocacy. While specific issues like immigration and economic policies are critical, Indivisible emphasizes a broader opposition to the authoritarian tactics undermining democracy.

Leah Greenberg [43:08]: “We have to fold these stories together and we have to recognize that the ways in which they are going after immigrant communities... are actually the same kind of coercive machinery that they intend to apply to the rest of us.”

Ezra Levin advocates for utilizing powerful narratives, such as anti-kidnapping sentiments, to build a broader coalition that transcends single-issue activism.

Ezra Levin [44:32]: “Let's not kidnap people is a pretty good political slogan. You can build a pretty broad-based constituency off of. Let’s not kidnap people.”

9. Internal Dynamics and Organizational Resilience

The episode takes a personal turn as Greenberg and Levin discuss the dynamics of working together as spouses in a high-stress activist environment. Their mutual respect and ability to balance differing perspectives have been pivotal in steering Indivisible through challenging times.

Ezra Levin [46:24]: “We're both very opinionated writers... Healthy tension has been beneficial to the organization.”

10. Conclusion: A Call to Action

Wrapping up, Tim Miller reiterates the importance of grassroots activism and encourages listeners to join Indivisible groups or participate in the upcoming protests. The episode ends on a hopeful note, emphasizing collective action as the linchpin in defending and restoring democratic values.

Ezra Levin [40:17]: “If we're successful, the story of this period is going to be that time when America faced some scary authoritarian threat, but ultimately we overcame it and we reasserted democracy.”

Key Takeaways:

• Grassroots Power: Simple, well-organized guides can mobilize massive grassroots movements capable of challenging entrenched political agendas.

• Strategic Pressure: Utilizing the inherent incentives of elected officials, such as reelection and constituent support, is crucial for effective advocacy.

• Institutional Collapse: The rapid undermining of democratic institutions necessitates a robust, people-driven counter-movement.

• Engaging Youth: Tailored strategies are essential to galvanize younger generations who may perceive traditional activism as ineffective or unrelatable.

• Unified Opposition: Building a broad coalition around the central principle of rejecting authoritarianism can transcend specific policy disagreements and foster unity.

• Resilience Through Relationships: Strong personal and professional relationships within activist organizations can enhance resilience and strategic flexibility.

Notable Quotes:

• Leah Greenberg [06:34]: “You show up at town halls, you make them answer questions about the things that they don't necessarily want to talk about.”

• Ezra Levin [10:28]: “Normal, everyday people organizing a broad-based, ideologically diverse, geographically distributed movement of pro-democracy people organizing."

• Ezra Levin [33:22]: “We have to build a unified opposition that says no.”

• Leah Greenberg [09:40]: “Regular people were pretty clear that they were going to push back.”

This episode serves as a powerful testament to the enduring strength of grassroots activism and the pivotal role of collective "no" in safeguarding democracy. Greenberg and Levin offer both a blueprint for effective organizing and an inspiring narrative of resilience against authoritarian threats.