S2 Ep1045: Bill Kristol: A New Gilded Age

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1045 - Bill Kristol on "A New Gilded Age"

Release Date: May 19, 2025

Hosts and Guests:

• Tim Miller – Host
• Bill Kristol – Editor at Large, The Bulwark

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1. Introduction

The episode opens with Tim Miller welcoming his guest, Bill Kristol. They quickly transition from a brief sports commentary on the Denver Nuggets’ loss to the pressing news of President Joe Biden’s prostate cancer diagnosis.

2. President Biden’s Prostate Cancer Diagnosis

Tim Miller introduces the topic by comparing the Nuggets' loss to the gravity of Biden's health news, framing it within the broader context of life's inherent challenges and the search for fulfillment despite inevitable struggles.

Key Points:

• Biden’s Diagnosis: Diagnosed with a high Gleason score of 9 prostate cancer with bone metastasis, indicating an aggressive form of the disease. However, it is hormone-sensitive, allowing for effective management.

  • Quote (07:25): “Joe Biden early decided to have a second term despite his medical condition. It was a mistake...”

• Personal Tragedy: Reflecting on Biden's personal losses, including the death of his son Beau, and how these experiences shape his leadership and legacy.

• Legacy Concerns: The discussion delves into the uncertainty surrounding Biden’s legacy, especially in light of his health issues and his presidency succeeding Trump.

  • Quote (11:00): “The legacy thing is hard to shape and obviously hard to control.”

Bill Kristol’s Insights: Kristol expresses empathy towards Biden’s situation while critiquing the administration's decision to pursue a second term despite potential health risks. He emphasizes the unpredictability of legacy and the importance of attempting to do the right thing for future generations.

3. Donald Trump’s Recent Actions and Implications

The conversation shifts to former President Donald Trump’s recent behavior, particularly his public confrontations with Disney and implications of corruption.

Key Points:

• Trump's Threats to Disney:

  • Trump accuses Disney’s CEO Bob Iger of not addressing fake news, referencing defamatory reporting about him.
    • Quote (17:00): “Why doesn't Chairman Bob Iger do something about ABC fake news...”

• Qatar’s Involvement: Discussing the alleged shakedown by Qatar involving the gifting of a private plane to Trump, highlighting the ethical and diplomatic concerns.

  • Quote (19:19): “It's madness that it's personal grift.”

• Impact on Businesses and Media: Kristol and Miller critique how Trump’s intimidation tactics are affecting media companies and businesses, arguing that these actions undermine democratic values and corporate integrity.

Bill Kristol’s Insights: Kristol underscores the detrimental effects of Trump’s tactics on business ethics and media accountability. He draws parallels to historical instances of corruption and emphasizes the long-term negative impact on America’s democratic institutions.

4. Economic Policy and Fiscal Responsibility

The discussion transitions to the current economic climate, focusing on fiscal policies, tax cuts, tariffs, and their implications for the U.S. economy.

Key Points:

• Tax Cuts for the Wealthy: Critique of the Republicans' continuation of tax cuts for the rich amidst increasing deficits.

  • Quote (29:35): “It's funny how much that old argument... still linger.”

• Tariffs and Their Impact: Examination of the tariffs imposed, their effects on businesses like Walmart, and the overall economic strain on middle and lower-income Americans.

• Moody’s Downgrade: Analysis of Moody’s recent downgrade of the U.S. credit rating in the context of rising deficits and high-interest rates.

  • Quote (35:13): “We are in such bad shape...”

Bill Kristol’s Insights: Kristol argues that the current Republican fiscal policies are short-sighted and detrimental to long-term economic stability. He suggests that these policies will lead to increased debt and higher interest payments, ultimately harming the broader economy.

5. Conspiracy Theories and Media Responsibility

Tim Miller and Bill Kristol address the resurgence of conspiracy theories propagated by figures like Dan Bongino, especially surrounding events like Jeffrey Epstein’s death and the integrity of the 2020 election.

Key Points:

• Epstein Conspiracy Theories:

  • Dan Bongino dismisses the notion that Epstein killed himself, asserting he saw it as a suicide.
    • Quote (45:33): “He killed himself. Again, you want me to...”

• Assassination Attempts on Trump: Bongino and Cash attempt to deflect from factual events by insisting on unproven theories regarding assassination attempts linked to the "deep state."

• Impact on Public Discourse: Kristol criticizes these conspiracy theories for exploiting misinformation and spreading cynicism, which undermines public trust in institutions.

  • Quote (48:59): “You have like, a lot more impartial observers who said the 2020 election was not rigged.”

Bill Kristol’s Insights: Kristol emphasizes the irresponsible nature of promoting baseless conspiracy theories. He highlights the damage such rhetoric inflicts on democratic discourse and the importance of adhering to factual integrity.

6. U.S. Foreign Policy and International Relations

The podcast touches upon the Trump administration’s foreign policy decisions, particularly regarding AI chip exports to the UAE and the broader implications for U.S.-China relations.

Key Points:

• AI Chip Export to UAE:

  • Trump waives restrictions on exporting sensitive AI chips to the UAE, a move criticized for potentially enabling authoritarian surveillance technologies.
    • Quote (25:05): “Tom takes this very seriously. That, you know, AI stuff...”

• Impact on U.S.-China Relations: The decision may exacerbate tensions with China, given the UAE’s close ties with Chinese technology providers.

• Policy Critique: Both hosts express concerns over prioritizing economic gains over national security and ethical considerations.

Bill Kristol’s Insights: Kristol views the AI chip export as a reckless policy decision that compromises U.S. technological and national security. He warns of the long-term consequences of such agreements, particularly in empowering authoritarian regimes.

7. Immigration and Border Security

The episode briefly covers recent immigration issues, including the controversial entry of cartel leaders’ family members into the U.S. and the administration’s handling of border security.

Key Points:

• Cartel Leaders’ Family Entry: Mexico’s security chief confirmed that 17 family members of cartel leaders entered the U.S. as part of a deal, raising questions about the administration’s priorities and integrity.

  • Quote (41:10): “...17 family members of cartel leaders crossed into the U.S. last week as part of a deal...”

• Impact on Public Perception: The episode critiques the administration’s actions as favoring criminal entities over legitimate refugees, highlighting the ethical dilemmas in immigration policies.

Bill Kristol’s Insights: Kristol questions the rationale behind the administration’s decisions, suggesting corruption and favoritism towards powerful, yet unethical, entities. He underscores the need for transparent and just immigration practices.

8. Closing Remarks and Reactivity to Conspiracies

Tim Miller and Bill Kristol conclude the episode by reflecting on the state of American politics, the rise of conspiracy theories, and the need for responsible leadership.

Key Points:

• Responsibility of Public Officials: Emphasis on the importance of integrity and truthfulness in public discourse.

• Future Political Implications: Discussion on how current policies and leadership styles will shape future elections and America's democratic health.

Final Thoughts: The hosts express hope for a more informed and responsible political climate, urging listeners to remain vigilant against misinformation and authoritarian tendencies.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller (02:00): “Life's a tragedy... the challenge is how we find some beauty and fulfillment in the process.”
• Bill Kristol (07:44): “You want to try to do the right thing and to take a long view of the right thing.”
• Dan Bongino (45:33): “He killed himself. Again, you want me to...”
• Bill Kristol (48:59): “You have like, a lot more impartial observers who said the 2020 election was not rigged.”

Conclusion

In this episode, Tim Miller and Bill Kristol engage in a comprehensive discourse on pressing political issues, from President Biden’s health and legacy to Donald Trump’s controversial actions and their broader implications for American democracy and global relations. The conversation underscores the tension between ethical governance and opportunistic politics, advocating for informed and responsible leadership in turbulent times.

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Produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday, so I am here with editor at large Bill Kristol and there's a lot of news to discuss. Bill, how are you doing?

[Bill Kristol]

I'm doing fine, Tim. And you?

[Tim Miller]

You know, I'm doing pretty good, all things considered. We had a pretty devastating Nuggets loss in game seven.

[Bill Kristol]

Did look very close the last time I looked at the score there.

[Tim Miller]

I'm just going to say, yeah, wasn't close. And I was thinking about what to say about it as we got the news of Joe Biden's pretty concerning prostate cancer diagnosis. And so if people allow me, you know, obviously there's some limits in the comparison between the Denver Nuggets and Joe Biden, but you know, sports, in some ways, this facsimile of life, you know, life, life's a tragedy, right? Like, we all, it's not just Joe Biden. Like all of us, in the end, we're going to die, we're going to decay. And like, the challenge is how we find some beauty and fulfillment in the process. Like sports gives us this on the side, but like we have, like, rules and structure that go along with it. You get to have, like, actual rewards put in place in the middle of it, which sometimes you don't get in life. But. Do you know Aaron Gordon, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, not really.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. All right, I'm going to just tell you one sec. If people will just allow me one minute about Aaron Gordon, because we need some, like, people in public life to actually just genuinely admire these days. He was the best player on a terrible team his whole career in Orlando. He comes to Denver to be a role player, sacrifices the spotlight he's always had. He's just always happy, always joyful. Reading between the lines of his Instagram, pretty sure he's a common voter. His brother Drew dies in a car crash last year. His older brother, his three young kids. And so this year, Aaron changes his number to honor his brother. And he brings the kids around all the time. His nephews are, like, around at the games, the press conferences, sitting in the front. He's nurturing them. You know, you can always see him trying to kind of buck him up during the playoffs. He hits two miracle game winners and a game tying three in the first 12 games of the playoffs. In the penultimate game, he pulls his hamstring, going for a loose ball with like a minute left at the end of the game. It's the type of thing you're supposed to have like a one month recovery process for. But he decides to play anyway in the deciding game, game seven. And like, he's hobbling around out there. He's got 11 rebounds. It's just unbelievable the amount of guts that he's showing. We get our ass kicked, as you pointed out, but this is all we're supposed to have in life, right? Like, you get these little moments of triumph, you know, that he won a championship two years ago. You are there for your nephews. You show that you have guts. You get fulf and you get these moments of joy, the game winning shots. And in the end, it's lost in the end. You always lose in the end, right? And so that is kind of like how I was processing all this yesterday about why I was not as down as I could have been about the Nuggets. And then the Joe Biden news comes across and it's maybe kind of a similar story. I don't know. Am I stretching for you?

[Bill Kristol]

No, no, you're allowed to stretch. You're the host of this fine podcast.

[Tim Miller]

One of my buddies text me this and he's like, how are you going to handle the Joe Biden News. And I said, I think I'm going to compare it to Aaron Gordon's hamstring. Do you think that's going to land? And he's like, I don't know, man, you're the best.

[Bill Kristol]

It was well done. And you know, I was thinking, so when I was in high school, my last year in high school, Willis Reed hobbled. I don't know quite what his injury was, but he hobbled onto the court in Game 7 against the Lakers and played at sort of half, you know, speed, half capacity. But they, the Knicks won. So that's the sort of, that's the really, you know, fairy tale version of the story, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. But Willis Reed ends up. This is the thing about sports, like life, you know, eventually it breaks down, you know, right. In the end it's over. It's all over.

[Bill Kristol]

I don't disagree that the fairy tale version is less, you know, maybe true to life than the, you know, you don't. Can't be carried through forever. Carl and Fisk are the other greatest, the greatest game I was ever at baseball game I was ever at 75. World Series, 6 game Flukish League got tickets. Susan and I had tickets. And so Carlton Fisk's 12th inning home run. And I was a Red Sox fan at that point in the American League at least I was a Mets fan of the National League. And it's up there in Boston in grad school. And Carlton Fisk has that great home run. Really the great unbelievable moment baseball. And of course the Red Sox then lose the seventh game. Everyone's forgotten that side and lose the World Series. So yes, that's, that was a good lesson. That's a good.

[Tim Miller]

Lucky enough. Where were your seats?

[Bill Kristol]

They were pretty good because the flukeish way we got there was we knew someone who knew someone who knew a relative of one of the team owners who didn't need, didn't want to use the tickets. And I think that afternoon, just hanging around grad school, I don't even know how we got them. Maybe Susan got them. Someone said, hey, you want two tickets to tonight's game? And Susan was like, I don't know, I kind of busy, have a lot of work to do. And I was like, no, we want two tickets to tonight's game, you know, sixth game of the World Series at Fenway.

[Tim Miller]

What a life. That's a good memory. All right, on the details of Joe Biden, we got to do it. Here's the statement that was put out by Biden last week. He was seen for a new finding of a prostate nodule after experiencing increasing urinary symptoms. We're getting really detailed here. On Friday, he was diagnosed with prostate cancer characterized by a gleason score of 9, which is very high with metastasis into the bone. So this represents more aggressive form of the disease. The cancer appears to be hormone sensitive, which allows for effective management. That was the statement from the Biden family. You guys wrote this morning about this. And like there is the personal tragedy side of this, which is, you know, and he's just had so much personal tragedy and as particularly related to cancer with his son Beau dying. And so there's sort of that side of the discussion which is just extremely human. And then there's this kind of more elusive legacy side of the discussion. But you wrote about it a little bit in the context of it's Seamus Heaney. Is that how you say it?

[Bill Kristol]

Heaney Haney? I think so.

[Tim Miller]

A famous poet, an Irish poet that Biden always would quote, often at funerals. Biden was a good eulogizer. Of all the things about Joe Biden, there's one thing that he's really wonderful at was eulog apologizing. But anyway, why don't you give us a brief of the takeaway that you offered this morning in the newsletter.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, Andrew really has a excellent piece, I think on we talked last night. Obviously we decided, well, we should write about. We both had the sense of we don't really have much to say. I mean, respect Joe Biden and very sorry about the obviously the medical developments. You don't want to write a eulogy for someone when he's around. On the other hand, so quite what to say. And we thought maybe we'll just write on reconciliation Bill and all this. And then last night, late last night for Andrew and earlier this morning for me, we both decided you've got to sort of write about it. It's president. Aren't that many people have been president. And here he is, our most recent president. And so Andrew wrote a very nice piece, I think, on Biden's uncertain legacy and how it's a little unusual in his case and tragic, maybe more so in the sense that he'll presumably die not quite certain about how he'll be judged. I mean, no one's really certain, of course, but other people see the effects of some of their policies and feel somewhat reassured or maybe in some cases not reass that the country will think of them in a certain way or future generations will. And Biden beat Trump and was an admirable contrast to Trump and I think a pretty decent president, but on the other hand, is succeeded by Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, this legacy question made me think about something Rudy Giuliani said a couple years ago. Do you remember this? Somebody, some reporter was lamenting to him how he'd ruined his legacy. And he said, my attitude about my legacy is, fuck it, I'll be dead. And that is like a deeply sociopathic view of legacy. It's like, I think about all this stuff and like, you know, as a moderate squish, I'm always like, you're looking for balance in all things, right? Like obsession over one's legacy and trying to sculpt and mold it, especially at this time. I mean, there's. Steve Shale just wrote this great piece for us last week about kind of how Biden, you know, like, you can only do so much, right? Like, I mean, he, he had this life or has this life still where he did all this research into cancer. Another kind of irony of sad irony about what he's going through now. You know, how he cared about this cancer moonshot because of his son and, you know, the legacy of all of the build back better and chips and like the things he accomplished and the legacy of the things that he accomplished in the Senate, right? So all of these things that you could, you know, that you want to talk about and focus on, right, in your post presidency or continue to advance in some way and foreign policy for him too. And then there's kind of like the pop cable news punditry legacy, right. And Shale was trying to talk about how Biden should think about just trying to advance all of those things that he worked on that he had successes on rather than trying to win this fucking talking head battle that is A, unwinnable since Trump won and B, uncertain, who knows how things will shake out. And I do feel like there's some healthy place in the middle that we want from public servants that's somewhere between the horrific nihilism of Rudy Giuliani and kind of an obsession with legacy that becomes unhelpful or maybe even counterproductive at times. And it just feels so much more acute for him, maybe because of his age. I don't know why. Maybe it feels less acute for Obama and w. Because there's a longer arc of post presidency. I'm not sure.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I'm not sure either. I've always thought that the focus on legacy is both obviously humanly understandable, it can lead in a good direction, as you were sort of suggesting in the sense that you want to do admirable things that you'll be remembered for. It can also lead to a kind of overthinking. I've seen this in other people, not just public officials, incidentally, that you don't know what's going to happen next. You don't know how things are going to be judged 10, 20, 30 years from now. Things that look great at first don't look so good and vice versa. Harry Truman, for example. So I think probably this sounds kind of totally trite, but I mean, you know, the best thing is to try to try to do the right thing and to take a long view of the right thing. So you are thinking about future generations. You're not just thinking about, you know, leaving office and everything falls apart a year later. But the legacy thing is hard to shape and obviously hard to control.

[Tim Miller]

It's tough. It's such a downer. One other thing worth mentioning about it before we move on to the Trump news, which is downer in a different kind of way, is Zeke Emanuel is on Morning Joe this morning. And it bears mentioning because this is just going to be part of the conversation about all of this, sadly, over the coming months. But he just says pretty matter of factly to Scarborough, this is the type of cancer that you've had for a while. The nature of it is not such that it metastasizes in 100 days or 200 days. And so that's not necessarily to mean that there's any conspiracy surrounding this. I guess you're more suited to talk about this than me. But I guess men over 70, there's certain reason not to, you know, get certain tests, particularly with regards to prostate, because you can there can be some over treatment and a lot of times it takes much longer to progress. But anyway, just like the blunt nature with which he said it seemed to take Scarborough off guard this morning. And I think certainly it's going to be things that people are talking about a lot of bad faith Republicans and like, you know, there'll be a lot of conspiracy theorizing about it. We're going to get into that more on the conspiracy side in a second. But it was interesting to see Zeke's assessment just be so matter of fact on this.

[Bill Kristol]

The one thing that occurred to me reading some of this stuff late last night and early this morning is I think President Biden deserves some blame for his stubbornness and his desire against what was prudent and what was really right. I'm gonna say not just politically right, but right in terms of the country for the next four years to try to have a second term. It was a mistake. Having said that, it's a very natural human mistake. He was the President, he's the guy who beat Trump. He thought he could keep doing a good job and he could well have, you know, maybe not with this diagnosis now, but he could have kept doing a decent job for a year or two. Maybe not for four years. I don't think it wasn't necessarily the right thing to do, but I do blame more his. The people close to him. I mean they're the ones who have to tell him, no, you can't do this. It's very hard for a person to. This is what friends are for, right? Not to be. Again, go to cliches and everything. People don't have great self knowledge or self awareness always, or they do, but they suppress it in the interests of other things. And really people close to him needed to tell him that he shouldn't run. Again, the COVID up side of it is not great either, but I do think it's a problem for those people who were close to him. I don't think they told him. They, they gave him honest advice when he didn't want to hear it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I agree. I actually just. The COVID up thing I think is the stupidest part of all this. Like they put him on the debate stage because they thought he could do it. Like, I mean, I think there's a ton of things to criticize all the people around him for, but I think they fooled them. They played themselves, so to speak. As DJ Khaled would say, that's fair enough. Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. At a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable, it's easier than ever to find personal information about people online. Having your address, phone number and family members names hanging out on the Internet can have actual consequences in the real world and makes everyone vulnerable. More and more online partisans and nefarious actors will find this data and use it to target political rivals, civil servants, and even outspoken citizens posting their opinions online. With Delete Me, you can protect your personal privacy or the privacy of your business from doxing attacks before sensitive information can be exploited. You know, obviously it's something I'm conscious of. It kind of comes with the territory when you have a daily podcast and are posting a thousand times on YouTube. So you want to do your best to make sure you're protecting your information, that you're making it challenging for people that want to come and create problems. And even if you're not the type of person that posts a lot of public information online, online, obviously there are folks that are, you know, coming for credit card numbers or other financial information. I made this point recently about how one of my mileage accounts, you know, got a spam bot attack going after it. So all in all, it's best to be safe and to make sure that you're protecting your information online. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Bulwark and use promo code Bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark code bulwark. All right. Speaking of playing ourselves, the country's played themselves by putting Donald Trump back in the White House. I want to start with just a random bleep he sent. He sent a lot of insane ones over the weekend, but I want to start with one that he sent about Disney because I think it ties into a couple other topics I want to get into with you. I'm going to read it for folks because I assume most of our listeners aren't watching Trump's Truth Social feed with a close eye. Why doesn't Chairman Bob Iger do something about ABC fake news, especially since I just won 16 million based on the fake and defamatory reporting of little George Slopadopoulos. He was given warnings but couldn't be restrained by management. Now I see they're at it again and again. I give these sleazebags fair warning. The wonderful country of Qatar, after agreeing to invest more than one put da da, da da. They didn't give this gift to me. They gave the gift to the country. So this is Trump threatening ABC again. I guess there's some report where they framed the Qatar plane as a gift to Trump where Trump is saying that is false. It's a gift to the country. Scott Besant used the same spin on the shows over the weekend. It's an interesting spin for me because I don't plan on getting to ride on the plane. So I don't, you know, I'm not sure it's quite a gift to the whole country. A gift to me. I'm not sure if many Any of our listeners are going to get to get a ride on the palace in the sky. So does seem kind of like a gift to Trump to me. But the interesting thing here is just how Trump's never subtle, right? And, like, he just lays bare that giving in to him and what Disney did with this kind of ridiculous settlement over the Stephanopoulos comments about the E. Jean Carroll case was very obvious at the time. Like, that was a mistake. All of us said so. It was very obvious that they were not going to get anything out of Trump. Like, making these sort of deals with Trump does not ever pay off in the end. He just wants more and more and more. He's just going to push and push and push. And here's Trump just publicly basically saying that, like, holding it over their head and, you know, saying that he's going to keep doing these silly lawsuits, keep attacking them, that there will be no relief from the attacks from Trump and our government just because you bend over for it.

[Bill Kristol]

Well, maybe there'll be relief if they just never report anything negative about Trump. I mean, you know, but I'm serious, the intimidation worked. He's going to keep doing it as long as it works. It's worked. It's worked on for media companies, it's worked for businesses, it's worked for law firms. We'll see what happens with universities. It's worked, God knows, for the Republican Party and with Congress. And that's why we're in such bad shape, though. I mean, he is in his own cunning and insane and narcissistic way. You know, he knows that the levers of power matter and people can snicker at him. And incidentally, Qatar, which gave him the plane, did get rewarded a little bit by him calling it. What did he call it in the tweet? A wonderful country. Suddenly, Qatar is a really fantastic place. I wasn't aware of that. That was the conventional view here in America for this country, which hosts, you know, Hamas's leaders and so forth. But they're getting something, at least in the very short term. We'll see how, how much more they have to pay down the road. So it's easy for other people to sort of snicker at the way he goes about being a mob boss. But of course, mob bosses, they usually get their comeuppance ultimately. But if you watch, like, American movies, you know that. But I don't know in the real world, they could do okay for a fair amount of time. Unfortunately.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Highly respected country, Qatar.

[Bill Kristol]

Highly respected country. It's very much. I noticed it. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I've got a ton of respect for the, from the leaders of Hamas who they're harboring. Yeah. It's easy to snicker at Trump's ham handed intimidation tactics. And as you say, they've worked. And so that cuts both ways. It doesn't really cut both ways for Bob Iger and Disney. And I think that snickering at the people that folded is actually probably valuable at this point and pointing and laughing at them so that more people don't do this because they folded and got nothing, which was obvious from the start, that that was going to be the case, that this was not like a one time thing. Like you pay your $16 million with Pope Leo. In my mind, I've got the Catholic Church. What do we call the Catholic Church donations back in the old days? Indulgences.

[Bill Kristol]

Indulgence. That's good. That's good.

[Tim Miller]

It's not like you pay your $16 million indulgence to Trump and then you get blessed by dear Father and then it moves on. It never ends. And so there's no point in paying the indulgence in the first place.

[Bill Kristol]

We need to make it that there's no point paying the indulgence in the first place. And part of the way to do that is to snicker at it and make it unrespectable and to do so and make people pay a social and cultural and maybe even economic price for doing so. But I wish I were more confident that all those business leaders who went with Trump on his Middle Eastern trip and sucked up to Trump, and I'm sure people in their company are not going to be very critical of Trump for the next few weeks and months and so forth. And all the elites who've gone along with Trump, I wish they were more confident they're not going to end up, at least in the short term, feeling like they made a pretty clever move.

[Tim Miller]

Come on, Bill, give me something here. Give me something today.

[Bill Kristol]

No, maybe not Iger and Disney. I mean, honestly. Well, it's not even worth getting into. Media is a different situation in a way because it's more public face. I think that's an advantage in a way that we have with the media than businesses where we don't quite know what they're getting and what they're not getting.

[Tim Miller]

That's a good point.

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[Tim Miller]

You had on the Sunday interview on Substack yesterday, Tom Malinowski, former congressman from New Jersey. And you also were talking about the cutter plain bribe and Malinowski kind of had a little bit of a different take on it. So why don't you kind of give us a little recap of what you guys discussed on that.

[Bill Kristol]

So Tom, who was both assistant secretary of State under President Obama and had been Clinton NSC and then congressman, so he knows his way around Washington very well and knows the way around foreign capitals very well and has fought a lot with the dictatorial Middle Eastern states. I think he was expelled from Bahrain once for meeting with some dissidents. So he's on the human rights, pro democracy side of things. He had two things to report though, which I think are interesting that he thinks are true and pretty confident it seems like are true. One, that the Qataris didn't just decide, hey, we got this plane, let's just give it to Trump and try to buy some goodwill. It was more of a shakedown than a bribe. Trump, presumably through Steve Witkoff, saw the plane. He knew about the plane. He heard about it.

[Tim Miller]

He saw it in February, actually. It was parked in West Palm Beach.

[Bill Kristol]

He's had a beef about Air Force One for a long time and he sort of basically asked for it. And Qatar is in a very weak position actually there one of the strong petro states, I would say. And so they need U.S. support and goodwill. And so they got shaken down and they shook or whatever the right way to say that is, and, and they provided the plane. So the fact that it's more of a, if that's true, that it's more of a shakedown, not just a bribe, is even worse. Now I will say the founders in there, to their credit, didn't understood that. You can't really tell often. So they just banned in the Constitution gifts and emoluments from foreign nations unless Congress approves them, because they understood that in a way you don't know. It doesn't matter that much, I guess, who goes first then. Maybe the more interesting thing from a policy point of view that Tom pointed out is the Emirates, the uae, who got also massive amounts of US Investment and in turn promised Massive amounts of money for us, for U.S. companies and U.S. businesses. But the deal there was that Trump waived restrictions that had been put on in the Biden administration and had bipartisan support in Congress on sending AI chips to the Middle east, in this case to the Emirates, which I don't really understand fully how this works. I sort of understand in principle how it works. I don't know anything about AI to speak of. But, yeah, we had these export restrictions on these chips because they're very sensitive and powerful, and we didn't want them getting to the wrong hands. The wrong hands could be different people hanging around in the Emirates. It could also be China with whom the UAE has a close relationship. This is bipartisan China, hawks in both parties and people concerned about AI and how it can be misused in both parties. UAE is a pretty totalitarian place. They use a lot of facial recognition technology and stuff. Presumably, they've gotten that from the Chinese. But it shows how much. How close the relationship is with the Chinese. And so suddenly, Trump is basically. Tom takes this very seriously. That, you know, AI stuff, which is very sensitive and, you know, has. Has. Can have pretty dire effects if put in the wrong hands. Already. Maybe already too much in the wrong hands with China, but we're just making it infinitely easier with this deal he's made with the uae.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's interesting. China had a statement out this morning that was on this exact point, on essentially these chip. The AI chip actors. Yeah. So basically, they said that the US Seriously undermined consensus reached at the Geneva talks, you know, with these conversations. So I guess the broader point is, like, who the hell knows, like, what machinations are happening behind the scenes between these big tech oligarchs. I mean, Sam Altman is there in Saudi and Trump and Witkoff and these Middle Eastern dictatorships and the Chinese. It's like, there's no reason to have any trust that any of the decisions being made are based upon the public interest. Right. And to me, this is like something else I wanted to get into with you. There was this big hullabaloo last week with Trump's speech in Saudi Arabia about how he was marking the end of this old, whatever you want to call it, bipartisan, neoliberal, neoconservative world, global order, and that we are going to stop caring about, you know, making decisions, you know, and having relationships based on shared values and, you know, the combination of the intersection of shared values and shared interests. And instead of that, you know, we're going to stop being so gullible when it comes to all of that and instead we're going to just be cold hearted. You know, it's just going to be about the bucks, it's just going to be about money and just going to be about how America can get ours. And Donald Trump's going to do these deals and it's much savvier and we won't get into any of these problems that these goody two shoes who cared about democracy and values and human rights got into. And now we have a much more savvy relationship. And to me, all of that is so naive and so stupid and like the idea that we would trade away these values based relationships where we care about the rule of law and replace it with like Donald Trump and some Islamo fascists and the Chinese and a bunch of fucking wannabe trillionaires at a table cutting deals. I think that there's probably a way to frame that in a way that people won't like. Right. I understand their frame. I can understand how it's appealing to some people, which is like, we're just gonna care about your pocketbook. We're gonna stop caring about human rights concerns and Riyadh. Right? But like the other side of this coin is that they are making these hugely serious decisions about like our future safety and security, like based on some fucking real estate developer and a trillionaire's desire to get it, you know, to get extra kickbacks. I mean, it is true, Mad. It's madness.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, it's madness that it's personal grift. I mean, that is to say there is a case sometimes maybe for, let's just call it a real politic, you know, sure, they have a lot of oil. We can't litigate the human rights issues too much with those countries. China is too powerful. We can't stand up as much as we would like to. For the Uyghurs, I think you and I are more on the other side of that. But, you know, that's a Kissingerian point of view. But that still presumes that people are trying to act in what they think are the best interests of the country. They just differ on the balancing of some material interests, economic interests, as opposed to values or human rights and so forth. But Trump's not even balancing anything. I mean, this is the farce of it, right? I mean, some of his defenders want to make it look like there's some kind of theory here. He's just out for himself and his family and his buddies and they're all out for themselves. So I think that Apolitically, I think that means you don't even have to reach the more sophisticated kind of discussions. You just have to say that if you're the opposition. And it does make me think, I don't know, just the attack on him and his buddies, the plutocrats, the oligarchs, the kleptocrats, I don't know, shouldn't that be effective politically? I mean, it's really unbelievable to see what's going on. It's being done out in the open and to a degree that really exceeds, I think, the Gilded Age and all the other sort of things we sort of learn about a little bit the sort of unattractive parts of American history, or of world history, for that matter.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And you combine it with the, oh, you're just going to have to eat the tariffs. Right. It's like, what are these guys eating? What sacrifice are they making? Like, there's nothing absolute opposite. They're trying to squeeze every penny they can out of Middle Eastern despots in order to, like, live as opulent lives as they can in order to sell as many of the chips. Right. Like, they're not even shy about it. Right. They're not even acting as if that, like there's some greater good or greater sacrifice.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, since you mentioned just one word on the Walmart tariffs thing, which was the, you know, Trump attacked Walmart for saying they'd have to raise prices because of the tariffs. And Trump, you got to eat the tariffs and stuff. You had billions of profits, record profits last year. Billions of profits. I was gonna write about this today if Biden just hadn't broken, I mean, who was president last year when Walmart had record profits that Trump is now trumpeting? Joe Biden. I mean, the whole Republican narrative, half the time when they're defending things, they have to talk about how much money everyone was making last year and therefore can afford to suck it up a little bit this year, you know, and so, I mean, I just think the, the degree to which all of our friends, all of us, some of our ex friends and acquaintances who had to justify going to reluctantly vote for Trump because I'm mad Biden, I can't live with that. I mean, you're in the business world, you just. That Biden, he was just. That administration was out to get you. And then every time you look around, it turns out record profits. The US has never been doing better. Low unemployment. I mean, the Democrats should take more advantage of that. I guess that was the point I was going to make. And Maybe we'll make tomorrow morning. You know, they are the party that defends a healthy version of Democratic capital capitalism. Today, the Republicans defend kleptocratic, you know, oligarchic crony corporate capitalism. And I do think the Democrats could do a lot to sort of. Because it's funny how much. Don't you find this. I mean, how much that old argument, which is like 40 years old now, Reagan, Carter kind of argument, still linger. And either, I don't know if it really lingers in people's minds or it's an excuse for people to use why they go along with the authoritarian agenda, but it's. It is kind of amazing how strong it is after we've had pretty good economies under Democratic presidents. And the biggest crash happened again, who knows who's to blame, but happened when a Republican was president George W. Bush.

[Tim Miller]

No, I think that's right. I do think it lingers and I think it's an excuse. I think it's both. But we'll see. This is where I go contra JVL and his total darkness, of which there's no negative explanation externality that could happen to people that would make them come to their senses. I do think the economic side of this is pretty alarming. And if you get to a point where it's like the only people getting their beak wet are these AI hundred billionaires and the Trump family and a handful of other grifters around them, and people in the regular economy and in the business world start suffering, are doing worse. I don't know. I was laughing at Besant yesterday and he was like, well, yeah, sure, you're gonna have to. Consumers have to eat a little bit of the tariffs at Walmart, but it's being offset because the price of energy is collapsing. Is that actually good? I don't know. I don't know. That's not actually a good sign for the economy. What about all your energy buddies? What about all the fucking oil guys down in Texas that put you guys under the lighthouse? Are they thrilled about this? Anyway, all right. I could do a rant about the oil CEOs. Get me more mad than anybody.

[Bill Kristol]

Actually, I like the fact that you pick on Besson so much. He seems like, particularly for a guy who's presumably a senior, you know, been around Wall street and high levels and done a million of these kinds of public presentations. He's extremely bad, isn't he? I mean, unusually, you can't rely on.

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[Tim Miller]

I find it to be just totally appalling and unappealing and on every level. And I find the whole thing embarrassing for anybody who's made it this long without falling into deep despair. We're going to end with the conspiracy theorists coming home to roost for some of the Trump administration officials. We can end by kind of enjoying their pain a little bit, but let's stick with the economy. So Moody's is the, I guess, last ratings agency to downgrade us. And this is related to what is happening on the Hill with this reconciliation bill. There are two elements of that I want to talk to you about. One Jonathan Cohn wrote about for us, which is just how last night, which everybody should go read, was just about how rushed and how opaque this is and what the implications of that are. But first, just really quick on the Moody side of it also, it's just like the debt bomb that is coming. All this stuff is interacting together, right where we have these tariffs that are going to increase prices on people, we have the cuts that are coming to the federal government. And then you have this tax bill that's going through that is going to increase the deficit more than anything that any of the previous presidents have done in our lifetime, none of whom have been particularly fiscally responsible. And they're going to do it at a time of high interest rates, relatively higher interest rates, at least recently speaking, maybe not as much with a full historical perspective, but relatively high interest rates. And the results of which is really going to be us having huge payments on interest on the debt coming during the next decade and interest rates staying high on people, on business, on developer, and it's just a totally irresponsible bill that they're jamming through. And you see little green shoots of truth coming out of people on the Hill, some Republicans on the Hill that are like, this is too bad for me to not say anything about. And yet they still, last night, in the middle of the night, advanced it to the next step. So I don't know what you make of all that.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I like the fact that the Rules Committee markup in the House now will be has been scheduled, noticed, you know, formally for 1am Wednesday morning. I don't think I've ever seen that over my years. Sometimes things go late obviously like the searing the other day went all through the night and they sort of intend that and they want to get it done and they don't care and it's all kind of rubber stamping. But to actually officially call a hearing for 1am Wednesday, I think it has to do with them getting it to the floor before Memorial Day and but they don't feel they'll have it done before Wednesday or something so that's the earliest they can do it on Wednesday. I don't quite understand the timing rules of Congress so to speak with the Rules Committee. Still it's pretty startling, right? Huge piece of legislation. Jonathan Cohen makes a very good point. Obamacare, I was a pretty big opponent of it and the Weekly Standard published more pieces than I care to remember and I don't remember, thank God about you know, all of its problems and deficiencies and bad policies and misleading rhetoric. That thing was debated for a year and there were extensive hearings with critics as well as defenders of it testifying. Waxman held I think eight hearings in energy and Commerce and there were others and other committees and every little part of it. Remember all the debates, the death panel, I mean the reason Sarah Palin was able to discover the death panels and Joe Lieberman was had a huge fight with the left about what was about anymore public option and all these things. It was like whatever you think of the legislation it was examined, debated, changed actually in the course of its progress and here they're jamming it through with a 1am Rules committee markup after a 10pm Committee hearing the other night. No public hearings, lots of it. You know, just released the text what a couple of days ago. So the Medicaid cuts, which are pretty complicated actually, you know, to figure out. Jonathan's helpful on that but you know, still kind of murky putting it all together. I was thinking about this. I've been a little skeptical that Republicans would pay a real price for it. But I don't know. I think the combination of the tax cuts for the rich, busting the deficit open as well, cutting Medicaid, the foreign grift that we just saw on this trip, I mean it is a pretty good story and it's a pretty easy. Sometimes they're good stories but they're hard to explain or they cut against the image of the party. Takes a while for people to, you know, to assimilate them. This is like such a perfect. I Think classic Democratic story to tell about what happens when you give Republicans, especially Trump Republicans, control of the executive branch and both houses of the legislature.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I totally agree. I think that there's going to be real price to be paid for it politically. And Trump's instinct, as is usual, just his lizard instinct on some of this stuff of breaking from traditional Republican policies when they're unpopular, was right on this, where he basically kind of alluded to the fact that they let the tax increase on whatever 500,000 or 600,000 plus earners expire, let the tax cut on that top tax bracket expire, and that still, because of what they're doing with a bunch of other stuff, it still would have been a disproportionate tax benefit for the rich. But that would have complicated the story quite a bit. And the fact that these guys on the Hill won't let him do that and are just going to kind of jam through a full extension of the tax cuts for the rich in addition to these Medicaid cuts, in addition to the debt bomb. No, I think it's going to be a very easy story to tell, and I think it's going to be complicated for them to continue to get it through. Part of the reason it'll be an easy story to tell is because Republicans are going to help the Democrats tell the story by infighting. Johnson is trying to fight that with this, pushing this stuff through in the dead of night. But even if they get it through, as a funny aside, Mike Johnson, his threat to people was that they're not going to get to leave for Memorial Day if they don't pass this bill, which is just so insane when you think about it. It's like you need to jam through this total reordering of the. You don't get to have your Memorial Day vacation. Like, it's like a, like they're a child, you know, like they're a teenager who isn't going to be allowed to go on the spring break trip with their friends to the, to Mexico unless they get their homework done. And it's just, it's embarrassing. It's pathetic. But even if they do jam it through this week and then it goes to the Senate, you know, the senators, Senators are still senators. There's still 53 Republican senators. They're going to want to put their, you know, mark on it. It's going to be the only thing they do this year. So, you know, the handful of them that still have an ego that hasn't been totally stripped away from them. And given up to Donald Trump are gonna make changes. So, and they're gonna criticize what happens in the House. So I think they've got major issues ahead on all this.

[Bill Kristol]

Only thing I'd add is, I mean, you and I have emphasized in the past Trump's approval rating, how important that is for what happens in November 2026. I think that's true. It also helps though, when you're actually in the last two months of a campaign and running ads to have something your opponent has voted for that is unpopular and bad policy. And so, I mean, the immigration stuff's horrible and tariffs are very bad. Congress should be doing things about both issues they're not doing. But no Republican member of Congress has exactly voted for, you could say, Trump's cruel immigration policies or his idiotic back and forth on tariffs. They're gonna vote for this. This is a vote, I mean, the ad writes itself. Mr. So and so voted for this massive tax cut for the rich and for cutting healthcare for working class and middle class Americans. And, you know, and if there's a little bit of an economic dip over the next year, just to compound it, interest rates don't come down, you just tack that on and blame them for all of it. Even the Democrats could probably take advantage of this.

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[Tim Miller]

I don't know if you saw the story. It's been kind of flying under the radar. Mexico's security chief confirmed Tuesday that 17 family members of cartel leaders crossed into the U.S. last week as part of a deal between the son of the former head of the Sinaloa cartel and the Trump administration. So it's, this is El Chapo, some of El Chapo's brothers and families, family members were like walked across the border from Tijuana with suitcases and they're here, his wife, El Chapo's wife, their kid. This is a matter of fact CBS story again, there was the Mexican security secretary that mentioned it. I don't know anything about El Chapo's wife. I've watched enough drug dealing movies to know that the wife usually knows what's happening. I don't know that she was in the dark. I don't think that she thought that El Chapo was just like a very successful businessman selling lawnmowers or whatever to people in Mexico City. I think that she knew what was going on. And the contrast, I just had to bring this up because the contrast between this, these guys are making deals with the rich, successful gang members and drug dealers, the ones that were bringing fentanyl into the country and doing the rapes and the murders. He's making deals with the top guys while they are kidnapping people off the street who just happened to be Venezuelan, were here fleeing communism, had the wrong tattoo and sent them to a foreign gulag. And it is fucking outrageous. Because this is the type of thing. I'm not sure why it's fallen under the radar, because it should be the type of thing that people can get, which is like Trump is doing favors for El Chapo's family as part of a deal while he's kidnapping regular Venezuelan refugees and sending them to a prison. I think it is of a piece of the stuff we are talking about in the Middle East.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. And who made the deal? I mean, it's not as if the border is exactly wide open to people coming from Mexico these days. And this family, however, 17 family members show up. And the photo was pretty, you know, these large suitcases, I guess there was $70,000 of cash in some of these suitcases was the headline I saw. And so that's not your normal. I'm going to just guess your normal customs agent, border patrol guy doesn't just let them through. You know, he's like, hey, wait a second. This is. I don't think we're supposed to be letting you guys through. So some orders came down from on high. And that's, I guess, Christina. I think it may be testifying tomorrow. She never answers anything, obviously, but it really would be worth. Exactly who ordered that these people be let in? What deal was cut, and by who was it Donald Trump Jr. I mean, God knows. Right, Right.

[Tim Miller]

What was the deal? What did we get out of it? What was the exchange? Well, on this point, just a reminder, folks, June 6th, me, John Lovett, Sarah Longwell and some special guests. We're gonna be doing a fundraiser for Andre Hernandez Romero and a couple of the other. For the legal team supporting Andre Hernandez Romero and a couple of the other folks that have been disappeared to El Salvador. So come hang with us if you're in Washington. June 6th, it's going to be serious. I'm going to rant and yell, but we'll also laugh a little bit and have some fun because it is world pride. So hopefully it won't be too big of a downer for you on your Friday night. All right, speaking of laughing, let's get to our guys, Cash and Bongino. So the fact that this had to be scheduled, I just think tells you a lot about the priorities of the Trump administration and who they're responsive to. Outside of the view of almost everybody listening to this, except for those who, like me, like, enjoy following random MAGA weirdos on social media, there's been some angst about how the FBI has not been following through on a lot of the conspiracy theories that were advanced in the MAGA world. Why hasn't any of the Biden crime family been arrested yet? Is something that comes up. Why haven't they revealed that it was the deep state that was behind the assassination attempts or the Russia hoax? Why haven't they revealed that it was the Clintons that were behind the Epstein murder? There's some, you know, some of the people, some of the rubes, like, want the payoff on the QAnon stuff. Like, they got the QAnon guys in the FBI, so where's the payoff? And so in order to manage this Cash and Boncino, do a joint interview with Maria Barrett Romo, the biggest conspiracy theorist on fox. Just an insane scene. And. And I want to play a couple of clips from it first. First, their response to the Epstein situation.

[Dan Bongino]

You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. People don't believe it. Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion. But as someone who has worked as a public defender, as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's been in the metropolitan detention center, who's been in segregated housing, you know, a suicide when you see one, and that's what that was. He killed himself. Again, you want me to. I've seen the whole file. He killed himself.

[Tim Miller]

Hmm. The lady doth protest too much. Maybe a little bit for me. I don't know. I always come back to why the Epstein didn't kill himself is not a conspiracy theory about Donald Trump, who we know had a very close relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, was pictured with him, flew with him, was president when Jeffrey Epstein killed himself. So he was in the custody of federal officials in the Trump administration. He had cabinet members and Alex Acosta that did lawyering on behalf of Epstein. At least his firms did. And so I don't know, anyway, if you're going to be a conspiracy theorist. It's kind of intriguing. It's kind of intriguing. I don't know, maybe it's Trump or maybe it's nothing. But it's funny that these guys had to go do the hostage tape about how Jeffrey Epstein really killed himself. What did you think? Did you enjoy that clip, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

I did. I was a little struck also that of course they were able to knock down conspiracies when they want to and say, I've looked at the facts and it's not true. So for me, it brings home how unbelievably irresponsible it's not even the word, even close to the word cynical and demagogic they are in exploiting the people who believe in all these things. They don't believe it. I think that's a bit of a mistake some of our friends make that, you know, they've all gone down this rabbit hole. I don't believe that they all know what they're doing. They are all utterly cynical people, exploiting foolishness and misinformation for their own political and mercenary ends. But they're also capable of when they feel they have to, of course, they knock down the. Weren't you amused by how much the rhetoric is so much like it when one of, you know, a public health official says, look, I'm sorry, I've looked at the data, it's not right. I mean, it's like suddenly they sound like, you know, semi normal public officials. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. No, immediately Dan Bongino has to sound like you, Andrew McCabe or whoever. Right. It's like having to do the responsible thing. The only silver lining, I guess, is that there was an alternate universe where Cash and Dan Bongino were trumping up charges on people over all of this stuff. So I guess this is preferable to that. But your point is well taken. Just about how embarrassing it is that anybody who's being honest with themselves. Had Kamala won, Cash and Bungino would have been every day on their podcasts, on their social media feeds, on their grifty book tours, talking about how the Harris administration was covering up Epstein because of the Clinton body count or whatever, and how they're covering up the fact that the assassination attempt on Trump was a deep state effort to take out the Republican presidential candidate. And they would be banging the drum on that. They'd be getting rich on that. That is what those guys would be doing. There's absolutely no doubt about it. And you get into a responsibility and they have to Say what is real. And they have to be, I guess, the victim of the type of demagoguery they would have been engaging in. So there's a little joy in that.

[Bill Kristol]

Well, and the type they're still engaging in for the issues where it's useful for them to engage in, they certainly haven't come clean. They haven't looked at all the data and decided, you know what, that 2020 election wasn't rigged.

[Tim Miller]

Great point.

[Bill Kristol]

I believe the evidence for that is as strong, maybe stronger than the evidence of Jeffrey Epstein having committed suicide. You know, there's like, a lot more impartial observers who said the 2020 election was not rigged. Why don't, why don't. Why doesn't one of them tell the truth about that? That would actually be a contribution to the public welfare.

[Tim Miller]

You know, it's a great point, Bill. Just for kicks, let's listen to them talk about the assassination attempts, too.

[Dan Bongino]

Are we going to be surprised at what you learned? The there you're looking for is not there. And I know people. I get it. I understand it's not there. If it was there, we would have told you.

[Tim Miller]

This goes on for like a minute and a half. I just spared everybody. But it's hilarious. It's like Dan Bougino, who was a podcast host, advancing these conspiracies now. It's like, I know that there's a there that you're looking for, that I promised you would be there, that I would tell you there, that there was some evil, deep state that was gonna go out, that was going after Mr. Trump. But actually it wasn't that. The problem was that we live in a society with way too easy proliferation of guns and weaponry and bullets, and that a crazy young man was able to get access to all of that and go after Donald Trump. And that actually, that's the problem, not the conspiracy theory that you want it to be. But it's fun watching them squirm.

[Bill Kristol]

It is.

[Tim Miller]

Did you get to enjoy watching them squirm a little bit?

[Bill Kristol]

I did. I did. Part of me, I just can't still. It's fun watching them squirm, but it's kind of bad for the country that they're in the positions they're in. I'm just gonna remind Extremely Bad not to end on a downer note. I know we're ending on an upbeat note, but I just look at those. The idea that FBI Director Kash Patel and Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino, that those words have to cross our lips in that order. I Can't quite live with that.

[Tim Miller]

I hear you. I must add that this morning at the press briefing, just in case you thought that maybe once the people heard from Cash and Dan that that would be the final word on the matter. Unfortunately not. In the new media seat where Andrew Egger once sat, they brought in a. A gentleman named Zero Hedge, who's funny. If you've seen this guy on Twitter, his Twitter picture, is it still like that? Oh yeah, his Twitter picture is maybe from the movie Fight Club. I don't know. We need Sonny Bunch to tell me what movie it's from. But it's an image of a shirtless, muscled man with like a, like a little bit of blood coming down the middle of his body, showing how tough this guy is. I've never seen the person's face. I've seen his Twitter account. There he was in the Andrew Egger chair, in the new media chair in the briefing room, and he looks like the biggest dork, like the biggest. Just total dweeb. Couldn't even comb his hair. I don't think he's ever done a bicep curl. And there he was asking our press secretary, Carolyn Levitt about the Clinton body count and how Jeffrey Epstein was maybe the most famous Clinton related suicide. And he points to allegations of a blackmail ring with potential ties to the Israeli government. I think might be part of the anti Semitism campaign that the administration is going after. But this guy didn't qualify for that, I guess. There we are. And it just, it feels like we're in a total Looney Tunes world where the FBI director and the deputy FBI director have to be like, no, this stuff isn't true. And then the next day, anyway, they put a guy in the briefing room to be like, well, you never know. And Carolyn Levitt, instead of saying, this is an insane question, this is not true, I refer you to Kash Patel's interview yesterday. She said no, you know, Pam Bondi and the DOJ is looking into it. Next question. It's a pretty sad state of affairs, Bill.

[Bill Kristol]

Not good.

[Tim Miller]

Not good.

[Bill Kristol]

We're supposed to end with an upbeat note, but.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, how about this? Is this an upbeat. Nope. Trump wants to investigate Bruce Springsteen.

[Bill Kristol]

Yes. That's good.

[Tim Miller]

That's another bleep from the weekend. How much did Kamala Harris pay Bruce Springsteen for his poor performance during her campaign as president? I'm gonna call for a major investigation into this matter. Isn't that illegal campaign contribution? So there you go, their eyes on the ball, Bill. No question they're concerned about the forgotten man. They're worried about bringing back jobs to industrial America. And as part of the process, they just need a palace in the sky. They need to investigate Bruce Springsteen and the Disney Corporation and make sure El Chapo's family members get back into the country safe and sound. It's a great, it's a good agenda. Make America great again.

[Bill Kristol]

Well said. Well said.

[Tim Miller]

All right. I guess we should also close. Just, just once again, the story is so fucking sad. It just really sucks so bad. So best wishes to President Biden, his recovery and hopefully kind of what they alluded to there at the end of the statement about how it is treatable. Hopefully that turns out to be the case. I know we've all had a bunch of friends that have gone through cancer and it sucks and the treatment sucks. And so sending our best wishes to him and his family. We've got a good guest tomorrow, so make sure to stick around for that. Hopefully he'll be able to bring a little bit more of sunshine than Bill Kristol was able to. Low bar, I guess. Low bar. So tune in tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace.

[Bruce Springsteen]

When it's Saturday night you're all just up in blue I've been watching you While maybe you've been watching for me too so somebody right now left someone's heart in a mess well if you're looking for life honey I top of the rest Some girls they want to hand some darling they on some good looking Joel on the rhyme Some girls like a sweet talking Romeo well I run to baby I learned you get what you can get so if you're after not for life, honey.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.