S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bulwark Podcast | S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb

Release Date: May 23, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: James Comey, Former FBI Director and Author

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Introduction

In Season 2, Episode 1049 of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a candid and insightful conversation with James Comey, the former director of the FBI. The discussion delves into recent political developments, concerns about the FBI’s integrity under the Trump administration, Comey's new novel FDR Drive, and broader issues surrounding public corruption and the rule of law.

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The Instagram Incident and Secret Service Involvement

James Comey begins by recounting a recent incident where a seemingly innocuous Instagram post led to unexpected scrutiny by the Secret Service.

Jim Comey [00:57]:
"We saw in the sand some numbers and spelled that in shells... I thought, man, I want no part of anything like that. So I took it down immediately and posted a little statement explaining why I took it down."

Tim Miller probes further into the incident, expressing disbelief over the swift Secret Service response to what was perceived as a non-threatening post.

Tim Miller [05:16]:
"This is fucking insane. Like, you posted a picture of seashells and you got driven into the Secret Service headquarters to get questioned. Did you feel like you needed a lawyer?"

Comey maintains his composure, emphasizing the professionalism of the Secret Service agents he interacted with and expressing uncertainty about the motivations behind the investigation.

Jim Comey [05:42]:
"They acted like professionals. They were going through their normal interview they do when anyone's alleged there's a threat... But I can't speak."

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Concerns About the FBI Under the Trump Administration

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the state of the FBI and other federal agencies under the Trump administration. Tim Miller presents a litany of investigations targeting Democratic figures and institutions, suggesting a politicization of federal law enforcement.

Tim Miller [07:35]:
"Letitia James, Andrew Cuomo, Lamonica McIver, Kamala Harris, Bruce Springsteen, Beyonce, Bono, Oprah Winfrey... all have been threatened with legal action by this administration."

James Comey concurs, highlighting the misuse of investigative powers to target political adversaries and the erosion of institutional integrity.

Jim Comey [08:07]:
"They are taking actions based on who's on what team going after the President's enemies. That's poison for confidence in justice institutions."

He further elaborates on the historical importance of maintaining the FBI’s independence, contrasting the current state with the legacy built post-Hoover.

Jim Comey [20:01]:
"We spent 50 years after Hoover died trying to build an FBI that stood apart... Now, if you're not trusted, you can't do the work."

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Impact on FBI Personnel and Organizational Health

The discussion shifts to the internal atmosphere within the FBI, where Comey describes a state of numbness and survival among agents following forced departures and leadership changes.

Jim Comey [13:45]:
"They've entered a kind of numb stage... trying to keep their heads down and do the work."

Tim Miller expresses alarm over the lack of healthy organizational dynamics, noting the reluctance of agents to seek attention or engage leadership, which Comey agrees is indicative of unhealthy leadership practices.

Jim Comey [14:53]:
"It is not a healthy leadership style."

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Shifting Priorities and Misallocation of Resources

Tim Miller raises concerns about the FBI’s shift in focus from traditional priorities like counterterrorism and counterintelligence to areas such as immigration enforcement and election fraud.

Jim Comey [16:21]:
"How you move lots of people to immigration... mystifies me because I assume that terrorism and counterintelligence are still at the top of the stack."

This misalignment, Comey suggests, undermines the rigorous threat prioritization processes previously upheld by the bureau.

Jim Comey [17:49]:
"If Congress is going to wink and nod because you're protecting the border, I guess... the rigor of the threat review process has been thrown over."

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Public Corruption and High-Profile Cases

The conversation touches on various instances of public corruption, with Comey recalling some of the most egregious cases he encountered during his tenure.

Jim Comey [30:03]:
"One involving Congressman William Jefferson... stacks of cash in his freezer."

He also critiques the Trump administration's blatant disregard for norms, exemplified by extravagant fundraising events perceived as bribery.

Jim Comey [28:45]:
"At the heart of every public corruption investigation is proof... But with Donald Trump, he robs banks without a mask."

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Book Discussion: FDR Drive

**Coming from his role as an author, Comey discusses his latest novel, FDR Drive, a political thriller inspired by real-world tensions and his professional experiences.

Jim Comey [38:45]:
"It's a story about a right-wing podcaster... trying to motivate his followers to engage in acts of violence."

He outlines the book’s exploration of the fine line between free speech and incitement to violence, emphasizing the challenges faced by law enforcement in such scenarios.

Jim Comey [39:09]:
"It's about policing this line, which is really important between speech and crime."

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Personal Insights and Reflections

Throughout the episode, Comey shares personal anecdotes that highlight his resilience and commitment to public service, despite facing widespread criticism and hostility.

Jim Comey [32:52]:
"I'm married to a trained marriage and family therapist, thank God. So I have in-house help."

He reflects on the importance of maintaining personal well-being amidst public scrutiny and remains steadfast in his dedication to upholding the rule of law.

Jim Comey [33:31]:
"You can only do your best and let the chips fall to that end."

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Final Thoughts and Concerns

In concluding the discussion, Comey expresses deep concerns about potential economic crises and the diminishing focus on critical national security threats.

Jim Comey [48:41]:
"I'm worried about an economic catastrophe... and the terrorism threat and the counterintelligence threat... we are at the top of the FBI stack for a reason."

He underscores the necessity of vigilance and adherence to institutional priorities to prevent catastrophic outcomes.

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Notable Quotes

• James Comey [08:07]:
  "They are taking actions based on who's on what team going after the President's enemies. That's poison for confidence in justice institutions."

• James Comey [20:01]:
  "We spent 50 years after Hoover died trying to build an FBI that stood apart... Now, if you're not trusted, you can't do the work."

• James Comey [38:45]:
  "It's a story about a right-wing podcaster... trying to motivate his followers to engage in acts of violence."

• James Comey [48:41]:
  "I'm worried about an economic catastrophe... and the terrorism threat and the counterintelligence threat... we are at the top of the FBI stack for a reason."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers a profound examination of the current state of federal law enforcement, the challenges faced by institutions like the FBI under political pressures, and the personal and professional resilience of figures like James Comey. Through his reflections and insights, Comey underscores the critical importance of maintaining institutional integrity and the rule of law in turbulent political landscapes.

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This summary aims to provide a comprehensive overview of the episode for those who have not listened, capturing the essence of the discussions and the key points raised by both Tim Miller and James Comey.

Transcript

[Jim Comey]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to have back. Former director of the FBI from 2013 to 2017. He was a federal prosecutor in New York. His latest legal thriller, FDR Drive, came out this week. It's the third in a series. It is. Jim Comey, what's going on, man?

[Jim Comey]

Great to be with you, Tim. Thanks for having me.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we gotta start with the shells for the rocks. Okay. I mean, you made this happen. Not me. I guess with the Instagram posting. I get in trouble with some of my posts sometimes, so I've been there. Paint me a picture here. I know you've done a couple of interviews already, so you're with your wife. You're on a beach walk. Is it the morning? Are we in Bethany? Are we in Cape May? You're an author now. Paint me a scene.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, we went to the coast of North Carolina. We loved the Outer Banks and barrier islands for the week before the book rollout. Thought it'd be a great time to get away, think about the next book, what I'm going to say. And we went for a walk on Thursday afternoon of the week before publication. And we were walking across a big piece of beach, and as we got towards the end of our walk, we saw in the sand some numbers and spelled that in shells. And my wife said, why would someone put their address in the sand? So we stopped. We both sort of turned our heads sideways and studied it. And I said, you know, I think it's like a political message of some kind. And she said, oh, yeah. And then she explained to me that when she was a server, which she did throughout school, that 86 was a restaurant term. And I said, no, I don't know that. I used to hear it as a kid. We would say 86 this place when we were at a bar or a restaurant. That was dull. We wanted to go someplace else. So she said, oh, you should take a picture of that. I said, cool. And I took a picture of it. And then I posted on Instagram when we got back home and thought, no more of it. And I thought it was just a cool way for someone to express a political view. And then I heard later in that day that people were saying it was a threat to assassinate the President. And I was like, oh, my God, I've never heard 86 used in that context. Actually, still haven't. But I thought, man, I want no part of anything like that. So I took it down immediately and posted a little statement explaining why I Took it down. And that's the shell story.

[Tim Miller]

Got it. And were there other people around? I guess when you're walking down the beach, you're tall, you're kind of famous. Are people trying to chat you up on these beach walks or is it.

[Jim Comey]

No, that's the great thing is people at the beach seem to focus on the things they should focus on. The water, the waves, their families. They're not looking. And I'm hardly a celeb, but they're not looking for celebs. And it was a big sort of the point area of a barrier island that's a gigantic collection of sand. And so it's not crowded at all.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Are you into kind of resistance memes generally? Like, are people sending you, you know, funny little. Funny little Instagram posts? Are you. Are you, like, into Instagram culture? Are you getting reels sent to you? Or was this. Is this a one off?

[Jim Comey]

I'm not a big Instagrammer. I tend to post family stuff, political stuff, and book stuff. Last fall at the beach, I saw something I thought was cool and I posted it, which was someone had painted inside a big shell endorsement of Kamala Harris. So I remember posting that. I'm not a big poster, but when I see something that strikes me as funny or interesting, I post it.

[Tim Miller]

Seashell politics. There you go. There's one overlap for you, you know.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Crime novels, Reinhold Niebuhr. Like, you just have a variety of interests, and Seashell political art is one of it.

[Jim Comey]

Okay, so you may see less of that in my future Instagram posts.

[Tim Miller]

Seems right. Seems advisable. So the most insane part of all this, I was listening to a couple of your other interviews is like, you literally had to go into the Secret Service over this. Like, you went into the building. Like, they called you in.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, they called me that night and I talked to an agent on the phone and he said, look, this may be the end of it, but if they want to do an in person interview, would you do that? And I said, of course. So just let me know what you want. I'll be home tomorrow afternoon. And they reached back out and said, look, when you get home, we'd love to have you in for a personal interview. I said, sure. Can you give me a ride? Because I didn't want to be walking through a Nothing against the media, but didn't want to be walking through a bunch of cameras. And so they came to my house, gave me a ride, said, do you want to sit in the back or the front? I said, I'd prefer to sit in the front. And so I sat in the front seat and they drove me into their garage and we did the interview, which wasn't long, and then they drove me home.

[Tim Miller]

I appreciate your good cheer about this. I would not have good cheer. This is fucking insane. Like, you posted a picture of seashells and you got driven into the Secret Service headquarters to get questioned. Did you feel like you needed a lawyer? I mean, it's silly, but it's intimidation. They were trying to intimidate you. And maybe not the actual person questioning you, but up the chain, they were trying to intimidate you.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, I don't know what was going on up the chain. And so it's hard for me to say. Look, the guys I dealt with at Secret Service, which has always been the case with them, were total pros. And they were going through their normal interview they do when anyone's alleged there's a threat. And I just thought, look, there's no conceivable basis for saying this was a threat, but if they wanna talk to me, I'll talk to them and that should be the end of it. But I can't speak.

[Tim Miller]

But you've been on the other side of the floor. I mean, this is not breaking news for you. People have said nasty things about Jim Comey on the Internet. So I'm not even saying these unnasty things. People have posted memes that were critical of you on the Internet. Like when you were FBI director in 2015, 16, 17. Did you ever bring anybody. Do you ever ask that anybody be brought in for questioning? Because, you know, they wrote, you know, James Comey's a cuck or whatever on Pinterest. It is not the normal state of affairs. Right, yeah.

[Jim Comey]

Look, if I were the investigator, I would think of it. Is this a credible threat? Is this term 86 something that's been used in movies or books in the past to convey some sense of violence? And if the answer was no, which I believe is no, I think that would have been the end of it. But I don't know in the Trump administration what kind of pressure the investigators are operating under. I appreciated that. With me, they acted like professionals. I got to imagine their lives are pretty difficult right now.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I think we have some evidence that they're under pressure to investigate people. I want to pull up here. My colleague Sam Stein posted this yesterday. So we have the DOJ is investigating Act Blue, which is a Democratic fundraising operation. FTC is investigating Media Matters, which is a left wing media Outlet. Media monitoring outlet DHS is targeting Harvard. The executive office is going after Dem aligned law firms and Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor, a U.S. attorney is charging a Dem lawmaker with a crime. FBI has arrested a liberal judge, Peter Baker. Put it this way. Letitia James, Andrew Cuomo, Lamonica McIver, Kamala Harris, Bruce Springsteen, Beyonce, Bono, Oprah Winfrey, James Comey, Good Company, treasonous Biden aides, the city of Chicago and the Kennedy center have all been threatened with legal action by this administration. So I don't think we have to read between the lines about what they're up to.

[Jim Comey]

Oh, yeah, and I want to draw a line under Chris Krebs. I mean, the president issued an executive order saying he should be investigated. So there's no doubt that the Trump administration is using the investigative powers of the executive branch to target people, to frighten people, to cow people. There's no doubt that that's going on. And that is a real problem. I'm just saying in my case, I, I can't see what happened up the chain. My interactions with the Secret Service were professional, were routine in the sense that they did it the way they would normally do it. But what was behind that? I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, they came in talking about how they were going to depoliticize this. And look, I mean, you've been through this more than anybody. Like some of these things are tough calls, right? You know, when you're the director of the FBI or at the DOJ and there is a president is of one party in the White House, assume that, you know, if you're going to be investigating or looking into a politician or a group that is opposed, there has to be some kind of bar standard. Right. You are assumed particularly conscious of like trying to make the right call within the law and doesn't seem like there's any evidence that that's happening right now.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's critical when you lead a justice agency so DOJ or FBI, that both the reality and the perception of your institution be that you're operating without fear or favor and that when you gather facts, you're not on anybody's team. That is, without that, you're lost. And that is draining away right now because it's clear they're taking actions based on who's on what team going after the President's enemies. That's poison for confidence in justice institutions and confidence is everything.

[Tim Miller]

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[Jim Comey]

Yeah. That was not my history growing up. And so I don't know what it is, but again, it's been a long time. Right. I haven't done an interview in a year. It was the last time you and I were together. So. Look, I have so enjoyed being a grandfather and an author in T shirts and jeans. And frankly, I was. After the election of November, I was thinking, I'll just withdraw. And so I didn't plan any of this out, but in a way, it's been a useful kick in the pants to me, and that is, you can't withdraw. And I'm a little embarrassed to admit I was trying to withdraw. And the stupid seashell thing, in a way, has said, no, you got to get back out there and speak. And so I think I can talk about the rule of law. I wish I didn't have to, but we all have to right now.

[Tim Miller]

There's some theories online that the Seashells is part of the book promo. Now, my pushback on this is that it would be so too stupid. Should we put the book promo? I would hope that you would have come up with a better plan for creating controversy, but can you rule that out? That it was a promo?

[Jim Comey]

Yes, I unequivocally ruled that out. Yeah, I think I would come up with a better plan. It's honestly been a bit of a distraction. Not that I mind you talking about the seashells, but I'm supposed to be out here for my publisher talking about the book.

[Tim Miller]

We're going to get to the book. We're going to get to FDR Drive. Unfortunately, we've got some other business. One of your successors here is Kash Patel, who is a conspiracy children's book author. So it's an interesting choice for FBI Director and his deputy. Dan Bengino was one of my competitors in the podcast space. So you never know. I guess maybe deputy FBI Director might be in my future. We will see. It's been a few months now. How should I put this? You know, I don't have a ton of friends in the FBI. I'm sure you have a ton of former colleagues, people that worked for you, former friends. But, you know, I know people. And when the appointments were happening, there was a lot of concern, let's just say. And I'm wondering how you know kind of what the buzz is and what you're. What you are hearing now, a few months in from folks in and around.

[Jim Comey]

The FBI, they went through a period of trauma when the appointments are first made And Kash Patel arrived and people were forced out at the same time. Really good career people, the people who actually know how to run the FBI, were forced out. The head of the FBI's New York office, who was widely admired, was forced out for standing up and saying, basically, we're going to do our jobs the right way. So that was a period of trauma for them. I think they've now entered a kind of numb stage where they are. I'm not speculating. Folks there have told me this. They're just trying to keep their heads down and do the work and survive this, accomplish the mission, but try to do it in a way that headquarters isn't watching them or isn't interested in them. That's. That's sort of a big part of the Hoover era. People just wanted to do the work and make sure that Hoover didn't see what they were doing, so they didn't get drawn into anything. I think they've entered that phase and hoping that time goes quickly.

[Tim Miller]

It's pretty alarming that they don't want attention from the FBI director for their FBI work. In a healthy organization, I would think would be the opposite. You would want your boss to.

[Jim Comey]

That's right. It is not a healthy leadership style.

[Tim Miller]

Some folks have been forced out, as you pointed out. Other folks thinking about leaving, I guess. What are your concerns? Just about good people staying and doing the work.

[Jim Comey]

Well, it's hard to categorize 38,000 people in one place, but I think the main feeling is they still love the work. They know how fast, three years and whatever we are, six months can go by and they are planning on staying. They're hoping not to be noticed, to do the work and then there'll be a better time ahead. That seems to be, again, the selection bias in those that I talk to, but that seems to be the feeling.

[Tim Miller]

I do love that mindset about the fact that the time can go fast because it seems so long.

[Jim Comey]

I wish it were so.

[Tim Miller]

I was thinking, my child just had her last day of first grade yesterday. And I was like, man, first grade went fast. So that makes you positive. And then you think about, well, she'll be in fifth grade or something when Trump is out of there. So that makes it feel long. So I don't. Different perspectives. So there's been some discussion. And again, I know you're not on the inside, but from text chains, whatever like that, there's a refocus towards immigration enforcement, who knows what else, election fraud, a refocus away from public corruption, maybe counterintel in certain cases, what is your sense of that? Do you have concerns that maybe some of the focus and the resources are being misapplied?

[Jim Comey]

Yes. It's hard to see from the outside, but I also wonder, so how are they doing that? The bureau since 911 has had a really sophisticated process to figure out what to work on. It's called the Threat Review and Prioritization process, trp, where twice a year we would look across the country and say, so what are the bad things that could happen to America that we could do something about who's working on it already? What would be good measurements of achievement against that threat? And given those threats, how would we rank them? And then we do the same thing in each of the 56 field offices and then come up for each field office with a separate list of these are your priorities. And this is how that we're going to measure whether you're making progress against them. Really rigorous. And we would go to Congress each year and say, you should invest in the FBI because we'll show you how we're spending our money and we'll show you whether we're making good on our promises to spend the money this way. And I couldn't move more than $100,000 in total value, so in equipment or people without going to Congress and getting permission because a law had passed that said, this is how you shall spend your money. And it was based on what we had told them we were going to spend it on. So how you move lots of people to immigration and how you do it consistent with the rigor of that prioritization process, mystifies me because I assume that terrorism and counterintelligence are still at the top of the stack. And so what's the rationale for the move and what does Congress say about the move? I can't tell you.

[Tim Miller]

Again, you've been in the building, I haven't. Isn't there just like a. What's the game with the ball and the cups? Can't you just say that the immigration stuff is counterintel? Right. And so you had money that was supposed to be in this bucket, but you're going to read just sort of move it the other way or. I don't know, is that too simplified?

[Jim Comey]

Well, it risks being a false statement, which you really don't want to do at the FBI. But yeah, if Congress is going to wink and nod because you're going to say that, you know, it's national security work because we're protecting the border, I guess at that Point the rigor of the threat review process has been thrown over. But sure, I guess if Congress is going to let you do it, you can do whatever you want.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I mean, we just saw Kristi Noem testifying. I guess it was earlier this week where she was being pushed on this. I forget which Democratic member it was. Apologies for not chatting them up. But they were pressuring her about this, which is like she is spending a bunch of money that's not allocated on border stuff, on advertising, promoting how great their deportation efforts have been on a bunch of other things. And I don't know if it's Republicans that are controlling the Congress and the Senate and they're not going to do oversight of it. I don't know what the oversight process would be. Right. So maybe there's just a little bit of a free rein and it's different than when you were back in public service.

[Jim Comey]

I think that's right. I mean you get that sense across a broad spectrum of issues that Congress has just folded it up and that leg of the constitutional stool doesn't exist anymore. And so it's no longer that the president's responsible for taking care of the law, be faithfully executed. He kind of gets to make the law now. That seems to be what's going on across the spectrum.

[Tim Miller]

Are you worried at all about the medium term threats to the bureau itself as an institution and just thinking about again, good people leaving, thinking about shutting down public corruption investigations, that the norms change, where having a more politicized bureau just as accepted and that it's hard to unwind that stuff. Or do you think that maybe I'm being too pessimistic?

[Jim Comey]

No, I'm very worried because we spent 50 years after Hoover died trying to build an FBI that stood apart. It was in the executive branch, but not of the executive branch, spiritually, culturally, because we needed that. And when I was nominated to be FBI director, Republican senators and Democrats all said the same thing. You must protect the independence of that institution. It can't be part of politics, it can't be on anybody's team because you have to investigate everybody over and over again. They told me the same thing. And that's reflected in the 10 year term, which is symbolic. Right. The president can fire, was legally entitled to fire an FBI director, me in this case. But the 10 year term is to signal something. And it's the reason that when Barack Obama was playing basketball on the FBI basketball court downstairs, I knew he was there. I never went down because Louis Freeh didn't Hang out with the President. Bob Mueller didn't hang out with the President. I didn't hang out with the President because we're trying to protect the reality and the reputation of the FBI as separate. And now you see the FBI director hanging out with the president, laughing with the President, socializing with the President. That is something that symbolizes a real worry that I have that we're going to lose what we spent 50 years building. Now, can we rebuild it? Of course. But in the meantime, good people won't come to the FBI. Good people leave the FBI. And more than anything else, people won't trust the FBI. Jurors, witnesses, victims, sheriffs, police chiefs, people that we need to know. The FBI is going to be criticized because we play our games on national television in a polarized environment. But if you're not trusted, you can't do the work. I mean, during our dinner at the White House alone, I tried to explain to Donald Trump during Trump 1.0, why it was in his interest to have an institution that he could give the hardest problems to and say, well, they're not in my squad. They're figuring it out according to the law and the facts that it's without fear or favor. When you lose that, you lose something important. It's a paradox. The closer you try and hold that institution, the more problems you create. And I shouldn't use the word paradox. You didn't know what I was talking about. But it's something that's really important and in danger when you conduct the business the way they're doing it now.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, guys, it's Tim and Sarah. We're here with my frenemy, John Lovett from Love It Or Leave It.

[Jim Comey]

We're bringing you guys all a special crossover collab with the Bulwark and Crooked.

[Tim Miller]

Media, the Never Trump Rhinos. Meet the Self Important podcast Bros. You are definitely the fucking self important one. June is Pride Month, and we're gonna be live in D.C. on June 6 for World Pride for a very special live show FundRaiser featuring the three of us plus some gay special guests. This one's a little different. Proceeds from tickets will be donated to support Andre Romero, the makeup artist who the Trump administration wrongly disappeared to El Salvador and who is currently being held in Sakat. Crooked and the Bulwark will be donating the proceeds from this fundraiser to the Immigrant Defenders Law Center. Tickets on sale [e-mail] events. These are going fast, so get yours before they're gone. Go to crooked.com events and we will see you all on June 6th, speaking of talking to MAGA folks, not Trump himself. You know, we all do have Trump supporters in our lives. Let's just imagine you're talking to a Trump supporter and they listen to that answer. It's like, come on, Jim Comey. Like, the FBI was always politicized Trump, you know, they sent FBI agents into Trump's house at Mar a Lago. And so we're just treating Democrats the way we were treated and all the rest of it was just window dressing. What do you say to that?

[Jim Comey]

I'm not sure there's much I can say if you're going to be trapped in a bubble like that and there really are bubbles. I mean, when someone yells you at me on the street, I have to pause and say, is that a Clintonian fuck you or a Trumpian fuck you? And I look for a context and location and inflection, and it's because people are trapped in their own bubbles. Why were both sides angry at us at different times is because we were doing investigations in difficult circumstances without regard to persons, without fear or favor. But if people are going to say, you know, they invaded Trump's home and leave aside the fact that they had a court ordered search warrant and all that sort of thing, there's not much you can say to them. And I just wish there were a way to make the bubbles go away.

[Tim Miller]

Is there anything you're seeing that concerns you that I, that might not catch my attention, you know, since you're kind of more familiar with, you know, the norms and mores of the Bureau?

[Jim Comey]

No, I think we've touched on the right things. They are. There is danger in having the FBI be an attachment to the White House and part of the President's personal team. And it's the reason I was so freaked when Donald Trump asked for loyalty. It's the reason, for example, Louis Freeh surrendered his White House pass when the FBI was participating in investigations that touched the Clinton administration. You cannot be on the team and do the work credibly. But I think that's the kind of concern you and I have talked about.

[Tim Miller]

I have one more Cash Patel question because I have James Comey here, so I have to do it. He was on Maria Barrett Romo this weekend. I don't know if you're a big watcher of Sunday futures. He was there with Dan Bongino and they were asked about the Epstein situation, and I want to play it for you.

[Jim Comey]

You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. People don't believe it. Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to Their opinion. But as someone who has worked as a public defender, as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's been in the metropolitan detention center, who's been in segregated housing, you know a suicide.

[C]

When you see one, and that's what that was.

[Jim Comey]

He killed himself. Again, you want me to. I've, I've, I've seen the whole file. He killed himself.

[Tim Miller]

It's pretty weird scene. I don't know. Would you ever found yourself in that situation?

[Jim Comey]

No. Both in general and in particular with Maria Bartiromo. I'd be on the bulwark, obviously. Look, these guys, in an odd way, I kind of feel sorry for them because they spent years barking nonsense about the FBI and its work to their followers. And then the dogs not only caught the car, they have to drive the car, and nothing in their lives have prepared them for that, but they're also now driving in a reality based universe where facts matter and statements have to be under oath and there's accountability in the courts, and so the nonsense has to go. But their followers who grew up on this, they don't see it the same way. And so I got to imagine they're under tremendous pressure. And look, you can take joy in that. I actually think it'd be better if they didn't have that kind of distraction and they were a different kind of person and could run the FBI without worrying about the followers they had lied to.

[Tim Miller]

I guess there's a little vindication, right? I mean, like, look, they said the FBI was behind January 6th. There was something mysterious happening with the Trump assassination attempts. Epstein, who knows, maybe it was the Clintons. Even though I never really understood that conspiracy since he died when Trump was president, the first time in prison. But now they have to reflect reality. It's a little bit of a vindication for the reality based world. We have to take our wins where we can, I guess, right?

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, that's right. And they spent years saying the FBI was a corrupt, deep state cabal of leftists. And I guess they changed that on day one, because on day one it became the greatest investigative agency in the world, which I believe is the actual truth. And that they saw it on day one, I guess, is a wonderful thing. But it's gonna take their followers a while to catch up, which puts them in a spot.

[Tim Miller]

You have any doubts about Epstein? You think maybe Trump and Cash?

[Jim Comey]

I do not.

[Tim Miller]

All right, all right. You never know. I don't know. I have a little nagging doubt. It is interesting that Trump and him were on the Plane together. And it was Trump that was the president when he was in jail. I'm just throwing that out there. One more news item, then we'll play a game, and then we'll talk about the book. There was a dinner last night, Trump Golf Course, with the biggest investors into the Trump cryptocurrency. It was like a game. They were also playing a game. It was a competition where the more money you gave Donald Trump personally, the better seat you got at this private dinner. Several of the dinner guests, in interviews with the New York Times, said they attended the event with the explicit intent of influencing Mr. Trump and U.S. financial regulations. I mean, obviously you don't have all the details of this and all the files, but this seems like bribery to me. This seems like public corruption in the most extreme way that I've seen in my life.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah. On the face of it, it's beyond fiction. If I put it in my next book, my editor would strike it out, saying, you gotta write something closer to reality, a little more subtle. Right at the heart of every public corruption investigation is prov. The challenge of proving corrupt intent beyond a reasonable doubt. That when people took an action. Because the defense that's offered in almost every public corruption case is that I had no intention of influencing or it never occurred to me that this might be wrong again. The challenge with Donald Trump, though, is that he robs banks without a mask. He does it in the middle of the day so he can say, I'm not a bank robber. Sure, I have a gun, but who would do this in the middle of the day with no mask? And so in an odd way, presents. This is not going to be investigated, given the nature of the leadership of the Department of Justice. But if they try to investigate it, that's actually an impediment, this bizarre brazenness. But it's not going to be looked at anyway.

[Tim Miller]

So try to contextualize it. I just said it was the most brazen example of public corruption I've seen in my life. But you're more familiar with this stuff than me. What was the most extreme public corruption case you looked into over the years? Like, is there one that jumps to mind of something? You're like, wow, like, that guy was really on the take.

[Jim Comey]

The one involving Congressman, I think, Jefferson from Louisiana.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Jim Comey]

Where the FBI search found stacks of cash in his freezer that he had taken, as I recall, expressly to influence what he did with legislation, and then he put it in the freezer. That was one of the worst. I mean, obviously, the Menendez case with the gold bars and the money in his pockets. Those are examples that leap to mind, but unfortunately, there's plenty of others.

[Tim Miller]

Do you remember how much cash was in William Jefferson's freezer?

[Jim Comey]

I do not.

[Tim Miller]

90,000 bucks. Not nothing. Pretty good. You can get a little boat with 90,000 bucks or take your wife on a couple nice vacations. The biggest contributor to the Trump dinner last night, Justin Sun, a Chinese national, gave 40 million, purchased 40 million in Trump coin. 40 million. That's insane.

[Jim Comey]

We just can't let it overwhelm us. There's a real danger that we'll just become numb, that we can't even see norms and rules in the rearview mirror. We're so far past it, and we just can't let it happen. And, you know, we become numb to the fact that I'm obviously spent my career as a lawyer seeing these law firms knuckle under and basically mortgage part of the business to Donald Trump. That it's happened so much that there's a risk we will become numb to it, which is why we have to keep calling it out. It's why you have to do what you do. I'm sure you don't enjoy having to talk about it every day, but we cannot let it become normal.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't enjoy New York Times media criticism either. But I was reading the article about this this morning, and here's just one sentence from it about the dinner. It was a spectacle that could have only happened in the era of Donald Trump. Well, that's technically true. Yeah. That it's a spectacle that could have only happened in the era of Donald Trump. But it also is a type of corruption and bribery and likely illegality that never would have happened. Like, that's why it's not the spectacle that was uniquely Trump. It's the grift and the corruption that was uniquely Trump. And this guy, Justin sun was being investigated by the Biden administration. He's no longer being investigated. He put 40 million into the Trump coin. And again, I've never had to bring a case in front of a grand jury, but that seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah. And talking about as a spectacle is like, it's the Met Gala. It's not about the fashion and the form. There's something deeply, substantively troubling about this. It's not a spectacle.

[Tim Miller]

I do have one more thing before we get to the game. On a podcast on Monday or no, last Friday, my buddy Peter Hamby said, nobody likes James Comey. You mentioned earlier that you get fuck yous on the street, back and forth. How are you processing that? Is that something that you're. Do you have therapists? Is that something that you have to deal with personally? How do you react to something like that?

[Jim Comey]

Well, because I am a devoted fan. I was watching and listening when that man said that hurtful thing about me, and I thought, yeah, you bastard. My family, at least on the surface, seems to like me a lot. My dog died a few years ago, but was very fond of me. So I look, I have to laugh. I'm married to a trained marriage and family therapist, thank God. So I have in house help. But I'm a happy person because I.

[Tim Miller]

Feel like you need a hug, if.

[Jim Comey]

I need a hug. I got five kids. I got five grandchildren. I watch my grandchildren all the time. And so my life is full of hugs and people who tell me I'm awesome, but that's because I'm their pop.

[Tim Miller]

Well, Peter just had his first child earlier this week, so congratulations to Peter Hanby's youngest daughter, Ren. I think the point he was making, more to the point, as much as I am concerned about your personal mental well being, was there's a sense in the mega right that there is this political wellspring of goodwill for you among the other tribe. I think maybe a kinder way of putting the point that Peter put was like, that's not actually true. You are kind of in a no man's land politically, even though you're a publicly for Kamala and et cetera. There are folks that have grievances with you across the spectrum. I think that's probably fair.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, that's right. And I knew that's what he was talking about. And he's right. I mean, there are partisans on the bell curve at both wings. Many of them have strong negative feelings for me. I can't do anything about that. And so it just is what it is. But yeah, the MAGA world is wrong that I am some influential figure, especially on the left side of the political spectrum. I'm a bulwarker. I have no home except a group of people of principle who don't really care for liked but care deeply about this country and its values.

[Tim Miller]

And you're welcome here. But I've got some bad news. There are even a couple bulwarkers that are mad at you. So we just got to do our best in this world, Jim Comey. You can only do your best and let the chips fall to that end. Here comes the game, I believe. And again, you were a Prosecutor, once you're more familiar with the rule of law than me. I do believe that in this country, we can still say the number 86. Like 86 is still something we can say, I think, without threat. Is that true for you? Do you think that's right?

[Jim Comey]

I would hope so. Again, I had never heard of it used in a threatening sense. I actually still haven't seen any examples from literature or theater or anyplace else where it's used as a threat. But, I mean, I took the post down because I thought, whether it's reasonable or not, if people are going to say that, I want no part of that. It's my Instagram account, for God's sakes.

[Tim Miller]

But anybody in the restaurant business knows 86 means just say we're out of the chicken or 86 that guy. He's drunk at the bar. We got to get him out of here. I'm pretty sure. And you weren't handcuffed yet, so I'm taking a risk that eagle Ed Martin is not going to come for us. And the game here is 86 or don't 86 Jim Comey starting. 86 Trump tariffs. Should we 86 Trump's tariffs or don't 86 Trump's tariffs?

[Jim Comey]

We should get rid of Trump's tariffs.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Are you afraid to say 86? One of the things he's targeting this morning, 50% tariff increase on Europe. So that's gonna really hurt. IKEA, the Swedish. Have you ever been in an Ikea?

[Jim Comey]

Many times, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, The Swedish meal.

[Jim Comey]

Maybe eat the little meatballs.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Okay. Are we 86ing the Swedish meatballs or are we not?

[Jim Comey]

I hope not. I hope we keep the meatballs and they remain free.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, the book, which we're gonna get to next, take a lot of New York scenes. I've had to fly to New York a lot lately. Flying into JFK. Are we 86ing fl into JFK or are we still doing it?

[Jim Comey]

I have not flown into JFK in many years. LaGuardia is Valhalla of airports, I'm told, so I would fly to LaGuardia.

[Tim Miller]

Valhalla's nice. I'm 86 in JFK. Not literally. Ed Martin and John F. Kennedy's already dead, so no worries. Okay? We're going to Continue. We've got six more. Martha Stewart's Cookbook. Are we 86ing Martha Stewart's Cookbook or not? You and Martha have a little past.

[Jim Comey]

We have history, but I feel like we're over the history. And she was guilty as Heck, but she was punished for her crime, and so I have nothing against her cookbook, So I wouldn't 86 it in any sense.

[Tim Miller]

We're not 86 in it. Great. Anthony Weiner's nudes. Are we 86 ing Anthony Wieners nudes or are we going to still look at them?

[Jim Comey]

Those I would pitch out of the bar.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, people asking you, how's the weather up there? Would you like to 86 that? As a tall man, do you get asked that a lot?

[Jim Comey]

I get asked that fairly frequently. Most often people just say, how tall are you? But Yeah, I wouldn't 86 that because people are. They don't mean it in any negative way. So I would let that one go.

[Tim Miller]

How about people asking about the 2016 campaign? Would you like to 86 that?

[Jim Comey]

That one I might. That I might want to have in the rearview mirror.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, finally, the Reinhold Niebuhr Serenity prayer. Are you 80 sixing that or are you embracing it in this era now?

[Jim Comey]

Embrace important part of being alive and staying sane, Knowing the difference between things you can change and things you can't and having wisdom and connection with both.

[Tim Miller]

All right, that is 86 or don't 86 with James Comey. We still are in a free country where we can say whatever number we want to. For now. May 23, 2025. We'll see what happens as we move forward. Let's get to the book. It is FDR Drive. Give people a quick summary. I was going back and forth last night because I can only take so much of the other book for YouTube. People should go check that out later. I'm interviewing an author who wrote about Sam Altman. And just as a brief aside, the more I learn about Sam Altman, the more concerned I am about the coming artificial intelligence apocalypse. But that's for a separate YouTube. And so I've only gotten through a little bit of it, so we don't want to have any spoilers, but why don't you give people a quick summary of the book?

[Jim Comey]

Yeah. It's a story about a right wing podcaster based in New York who is trying to motivate his followers to physically target and engage of acts of violence against people. He doesn't like a variety of people around the country. And it's about.

[Tim Miller]

Does he post seashell pictures to do that?

[Jim Comey]

There are no seashell pictures.

[Tim Miller]

Interesting. Then I would start to have concerns that it was a book promo.

[Jim Comey]

Another thing that an editor would have seen stricken is making no sense at all. So it's about this podcaster and my protagonist, Nora Carlton, whether she can make a case and stop the violence. And it's about policing this line, which is really important between speech and crime and about the challenges she faced. And it's a twisty courtroom drama in the main that it won't give anything away, but it's real, it's true to the way things are really done, and I think it will hold people pretty well.

[Tim Miller]

We noticed. Producer Katie noticed the right wing podcaster's name is Samuel Buchanan. I didn't catch that, but the initials are intriguing. Was that an accident? S.B. samuel Buchanan.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah. Missing.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. No. Maybe it was in your subconscious, because there is a very famous right wing podcaster right now who likes to give me shit from time to time. Steve Bannon.

[Jim Comey]

SB it must have been deep in the subconscious.

[Tim Miller]

Deep in your subconscious. S.B. i do wonder. So you've been writing. This is your third one in the series.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Lots changed out there in the world. The interference of real life in what you're trying to write. And you're trying to write stuff that is, as you just mentioned, true to. Kind of the advantage that you would maybe have over authors who do not have your background is that you kind of really know how these things work. But the way that things are working has been changing a lot very fast. And I do wonder if real life being stranger than fiction has created any hurdles for you.

[Jim Comey]

It does in the sense that I have to figure out what to write next that will be interesting but not turn off readers. Readers don't want to read in my stuff what they're getting in the news every day. I think it would depress them. And so I have to. You write these books? I write these books a year in advance. I'm just finishing the fourth, which is a Russian espionage story. And so Russian espionage will still be relevant in 2026. So I have to try and figure out.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know if it's too late to change it, but I heard that we are hiring spies in Greenland now. I don't know if you saw the story. We're looking into putting spies on the ground in Greenland. So maybe it could be a nuke espionage story.

[Jim Comey]

Move it to Greenland. Hadn't even thought of that. But who knows, right? You're supposed to skate to where the puck will be. I have no idea where the puck is going to be a year from now. So I wrote this book not knowing what America would be exactly like in May of 2025. But I knew that this question of so where Is the line between speech and violence and the influence of these right wing voices of hate would still be a feature of our life. So next spring, Russian espionage will still be a feature of our life. I don't know what the book after that will be. And then I'll be out of the Trump administration, God willing. I think by that point.

[Tim Miller]

Talk to me about the like storyboarding process of this. Somebody who's written a nonfiction book, like, just organizing all the interviews I did for the non fiction book was challenging for me. And so writing a fiction book, trying to remember what the protagonist had said in previous books or in previous chapters or yesterday would be a challenge for me. How do you do that? Do you have a big whiteboard? Do you have an app on your phone that helps you with it? Or AI? Have you incorporated AI?

[Jim Comey]

No, it's about choosing the right life partner. My spouse keeps all that online. We start by the two of us talking about what might be a cool story and then we agree that this is what the story will be and I go off and write a detailed summary of it. So like a 5, 10 page capturing how it's going to go. And then we figure out, so which parts of that should I show to the reader and when. Then I go off to write and she follows it on a Google Doc. And the reason it's so important is she's smarter than I, but she's also read much more fiction than I. And so she says, I'm every reader. And she'll say, ah, no, no, no, you're drifting. Or your characters are starting to sound like each other or this is repetitive. I get that loving feedback in little bubbles on a Google Doc and that keeps me online. Then I go out to the five kids with the story. You know, my protagonist is inspired by my oldest daughter who is the lead prosecutor in the P. Diddy case today. And so I get a lot of feedback about the story and about the particulars because I want to keep it current. And they help me a lot with that.

[Tim Miller]

The character part not sounding the same part does sound like another thing. That'd be a big challenge for me. I've gotten good at writing like Tim, which is a challenge in itself, actually. Just like sounding like yourself when you write rather than losing your voice. But having nine characters that have different voices, like, do you have little note cards or something that helps you remember the spirit of the character?

[Jim Comey]

No, what helps me is I've based the key characters on real people. The investigator in the case, Benny Dugan, is in all the books is closely based on one of my friends who died in 2006 from melanoma and was the best investigator I ever knew. Was an enormous, 65250, deep, Brooklyn accented, you know, brush cut hair guy. And I can hear him, you know, he used to call me Mr. Smooth, but he would say Mr. Smooth. And so I can hear his voice. And what I do is I spend a lot of time closing my eyes and trying to hear it. And then I type on my laptop. I sit there with it open and my fingers in the keyboard and just say, okay, Kenny, what is he saying? Now that makes it easier for me than a made up character. It keeps it online much more easily. And because my protagonist is inspired by my oldest daughter and really a combination of all five kids, that I can close my eyes and picture it. And that keeps it online. But other smaller characters will drift. And that's where I need Patrice's help to say, no, no, no, this guy is sounding like this woman. You can't have that happen.

[Tim Miller]

Writing women might be kind of tough. Would be tough for me, I would think. Your main character is a woman.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, it is. And that's obviously my household is dominated by intelligent, strong, tall women. And so they. That helps me. I can close my eyes and picture those voices well. And then again, they'll. They'll give me that feedback if I miss it.

[Tim Miller]

What is the hardest part for you of the process? Like, what's most challenging?

[Jim Comey]

Seeing it clearly after I've read it multiple times. You just can't. It's like trying to proofread your own work. You miss typos, but trying to ask myself, have I got it right? You get to a place where you can't tell, and that's where you need help. And I, I have a circle of. I mentioned my family. I have a circle of friends who read all of my stuff and they're. They're much less loving. So they're looking for things to find that are wrong. I need that because I can't see it after a while.

[Tim Miller]

So your daughter, the real life version of your daughter, are you monitoring the P. Diddy case? I know nothing about the P. Diddy case. Actually, you can only take in so much information in this world, and I'm taking in way too much about the stupidity in Washington. So, like, can you, can you give me a brief? Have you been following her work? What's happening? What's the progress?

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, I follow it through. The New York Times does regular updates. They have people in the courtroom who send out little updates. So that's my way for following it. She won't talk to me about the case and won't let me go. She will let my wife go and watch. But if I go quote, it'll be a thing, dad. Close quote. And so I don't get to go, but I follow it online because you can't. It's federal courts. There's no cameras. You're not getting real time transcripts. So I follow it from the little snippets sent out by reporters.

[Tim Miller]

And how's she doing?

[Jim Comey]

She's doing great. She's really good and better than I. And her passion has been sex crimes, sex trafficking, working with victims. She has a gift, and I worry about it because that kind of stuff can really chew you up. But she has a gift, and so I think she's doing very well. The trial in particular, I can't tell from the outside. You can never know unless you're in the courtroom.

[Tim Miller]

I don't even know what he's accused of. Seems like he did it. He was abusing women. Was it also boys or was it just women?

[Jim Comey]

No women. He's accused, as I understand it, of sex trafficking women to coerce them into having sex with male prostitutes so he could watch. And then he's accused separately of the crime of supporting commissioning interstate prostitution. So it's not children, it's grown women who are alleged to have been dominated and coerced by him in the worst possible ways.

[Tim Miller]

It's pretty sick. You got a great life if you're P. Diddy, you know, doesn't feel like that would be necessary. It's sad. Well, that's cool, though, that you get to kind of. Even though you don't get to literally watch because, you know, you don't want it to be a thing. It's cool to have a daughter that's doing that, right? You got to be brimming with pride.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, I am. I worried when she said she wanted to do it and that she would go where I worked as a federal prosecutor, as a line prosecutor, where I was the U.S. attorney. And here's the true thing. I worried she would be known as my daughter. Honestly, I am known as her father.

[Tim Miller]

I love that. All right, final thing. You're a little more Zen than me, as demonstrated by the Seashell pick. Even your protests or your commentary, maybe let's call it on. On the political moment is a little bit more Zen in nature. What are your worries, though? Catastrophize with me for a second. Let's close. In the spirit of the Bulwark podcast, what are the things that you're the most concerned about that you're seeing in the government right now?

[Jim Comey]

Well, I'm worried about an economic catastrophe. You have experts who can talk to you about this. But I worry very much about what might happen if the credit worthiness of the United States, which affects the bond markets and people's willingness to buy our debt, collapses. We have not seen that in. Well, we haven't seen it. And so what we would do then, while led by an incompetent in the middle of a crisis like that, I can't even imagine. And so I'm very worried about that. Closer to my career, I worry very much about are we keeping our eye on the ball of the terrorism threat and the counterintelligence threat, which, again, we're at the top of the FBI stack for a reason. And there's a real danger that we'll become distracted and lose our focus with catastrophic results.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, that's good. That warms me up.

[Jim Comey]

Enjoy your experience.

[Tim Miller]

That is right in my wheelhouse. All right, Jim Comey. Well, you know, we had our moments. October 2016 wasn't maybe my favorite Jim Comey moment. But in spite of it, despite the fact that nobody likes you, you've got me. In spite of myself, I like Jim Comey. You got me, your wife, your dead dog, Abi, and fall people. And that's it. What else in this world, the book is FDR Drive. There were two other ones if you want to start at the beginning. Which one was first? Westport. Was Westport the first one?

[Jim Comey]

No, Central park west was first. Starting Westport, then FDR Drive.

[Tim Miller]

All right, so if you want to start at the beginning, check out Central Park West. That is Jim Comey. Monday's Memorial Day, but I'm working Memorial Day. Me and Bill, Crystal, we're not taking off. All right, so. So you guys enjoy your barbecues, enjoy your crawfish boils this weekend, enjoy your beach walks. Be careful with any Instagram pictures you post on the beach. You know, double check. And we'll see you back here on Monday for another edition of the show. Peace.

[C]

Nobody likes me. Nobody likes me. But that's okay. Cause I don't like y' all anyway, man. I don't like y' all anyway. All y' all. Oh y my watch. Talk for me. My whip. Talk for me. My G. Talk for me bad. What up, homie? Even who don't know me, they want to blow me cuz this I Floss with he saying a lot for me I came in the rap humble I don't give a now I serve anybody like who hustle up damn coke price go up caps who come down the d's running my crib nowhere to be found who hustle for me they don't even leaving stash tracks they keep them on them right there in the ass crack When I don't like a I don't pretend I have the paramedics wrapping your head like a hindle look I ain't going nowhere so get used to me oh geez look at me and see I'm what they used to be I'm that that's so cold the that's so dope the that shot nice went broken so so the thug that pop the thug that pop whips the thug that went from three and a half to the whole brick Ain't in his right mind going against me my bitches panic the words I make a blind man cease murder I don't believe you murder fuck around and leave you murder I don't believe you murder murder your life's on the line y' all niggas don't want no parts of me I tryna figure out how y' all started me you gonna make me catch her on a late night pop shots with the fifth and slide off in the six not a marksman why sparkin so I spray random not a pretty but my mom think I'm handsome I hate to hear he say she say unless he says she says she on my day snow coincidence who with me get shot up I do a Cali style drive by and tear your block up soft dude be putting up a crazy front I stay with the Mac cause tried to blaze me what in the hood they like damn 50 really spit it on them you heard that? Yeah 50 really on them beef you don't want none so don't start now you just a small play in this game play your part street murder I don't believe you murder walk around, leave you murder I don't believe you murder murder your life's on the line y' all don't want no parts of me I trying to figure out how y' all started me you going to make me catch you on a late night pop shots with the fifth and slide off in the six.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.