S2 Ep1050: Bill Kristol: Something Worth Fighting For

Summary

Summary of "The Bulwark Podcast" Episode S2 Ep1050: Bill Kristol: Something Worth Fighting For

Release Date: May 26, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bill Kristol

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1. Memorial Day Reflections

Timestamp: 00:13 - 05:46

The episode opens with Tim Miller welcoming Bill Kristol for an abbreviated Memorial Day edition of "The Bulwark Podcast." The conversation begins with light-hearted banter about grandkids' involvement in baseball and softball tournaments, highlighting the challenges of juggling busy schedules.

Tim Miller transitions to discussing the significance of Memorial Day, aiming to infuse the holiday with deeper meaning beyond typical political discourse. He references Oliver Wendell Holmes' 19th-century speech, emphasizing the importance of fighting for a greater purpose:

Tim Miller (03:03): "Oliver Wendell Holmes... celebrates and solemnly reaffirms... our belief that to act with enthusiasm and faith is the condition of acting greatly."

Bill Kristol echoes these sentiments, reflecting on the melancholy aspect of Memorial Day in the context of recent wars. He notes the difficulty in honoring those who have died in conflicts that may not have been successful, such as Vietnam and Afghanistan:

Bill Kristol (03:43): "I do feel like maybe it's always had this melancholy aspect. How could it not? You're honoring those who died."

2. Neoconservative Foreign Policy vs. Trump's Approach

Timestamp: 05:46 - 07:10

Tim Miller contrasts traditional neoconservative foreign policy with former President Donald Trump's rhetoric. He argues that neoconservative ideals focus on fighting for something greater than mere national interests, providing a sense of purpose even in the face of failure. In contrast, he criticizes Trump for what he perceives as a lack of a higher purpose behind military actions:

Tim Miller (05:46): "...we're fighting for a goal that is greater than just mercantilistic American financial interests."

Bill Kristol responds by reaffirming his support for the "Freedom Agenda," suggesting that Trump's policies have underscored the importance of these foundational principles:

Bill Kristol (05:55): "I'm more convinced of the merits in principle of... the Freedom Agenda as a fundamental principle for this country."

3. Critique of Trump's Speech at West Point

Timestamp: 08:45 - 15:46

The discussion shifts to former President Trump's recent speech at the West Point graduation. Tim Miller criticizes Trump's appearance and message, describing it as inappropriate and narcissistic. He highlights Trump's use of a MAGA hat and his offhand remarks about "trophy wives," contrasting it with President Biden's respectful gesture of shaking each cadet's hand:

Bill Kristol (09:07): "The MAGA hat... speaking to cadets on their graduation, it's so unbelievably inappropriate."

Bill Kristol further dissects Trump's speech, pointing out the lack of a substantive message and the president's failure to address critical issues like Vladimir Putin's aggression directly. He suggests that Trump's comments reflect a shallow understanding of international relations:

Bill Kristol (09:34): "It's grotesque and narcissistic... They are horrible... enabling and colluding of so many thousands."

4. US Policy on Ukraine and Criticism of Republican Leadership

Timestamp: 15:46 - 29:58

Tim Miller and Bill Kristol delve into the United States' foreign policy regarding the Ukraine conflict. They express frustration with Republican leaders, particularly Senator John Thune, for abandoning support for Ukraine. Miller accuses Thune of "carrying water for Tulsi Gabbard and abandoning Zelenskyy," criticizing his lack of action despite his pro-Ukraine stance in the past.

Tim Miller (25:04): "John Thune carried water for Tulsi Gabbard and has abandoned Zelenskyy in Ukraine."

Bill Kristol emphasizes the dire need for continued support to Ukraine amidst escalating Russian aggression. He criticizes the passivity of elected officials and laments the inadequate legislative responses to aid Ukraine:

Bill Kristol (17:50): "One of them was in the White House, but I guess, you know, you just complain about the one."

5. Analysis of Current Congressional Bills and Tech Community's Criticism

Timestamp: 21:08 - 29:58

The conversation shifts to the scrutiny of a current bill in Congress, with input from tech influencers like Chamath Palihapitiya. Chamath criticizes the bill for its potential to spike energy prices, undermine AI development, and increase Medicare costs. Tim Miller highlights the bipartisan concern over the bill's financial implications:

Chamath Palihapitiya (23:30): "You're going to see energy prices spike... this thing is an albatross."

Bill Kristol agrees, labeling the bill as another example of reckless Republican fiscal policy exacerbating economic challenges:

Bill Kristol (27:10): "This is just another stupid Republican bill that cuts taxes predictably and doesn't cut spend."

Tim Miller underscores the urgency of addressing the bill's negative impacts, particularly on interest rates and economic stability:

Tim Miller (27:59): "It is already raising interest rates... it's going to keep pushing interest rates higher, which has an impact on everybody."

The duo concludes by expressing skepticism regarding Senator Thune's willingness to take a stronger stance against the bill, emphasizing the need for leadership that prioritizes national interests over partisan gains.

6. Conclusion and Final Remarks

Timestamp: 29:58 - 30:05

As Memorial Day approaches, Tim Miller wraps up the discussion, expressing hope for future policy changes and thanking Bill Kristol for his insights. The episode concludes with production credits, excluding any additional advertisements or non-content segments.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Tim Miller (03:03): "Oliver Wendell Holmes... celebrates and solemnly reaffirms... our belief that to act with enthusiasm and faith is the condition of acting greatly."

• Bill Kristol (05:55): "I'm more convinced of the merits in principle of... the Freedom Agenda as a fundamental principle for this country."

• Bill Kristol (09:07): "The MAGA hat... speaking to cadets on their graduation, it's so unbelievably inappropriate."

• Tim Miller (25:04): "John Thune carried water for Tulsi Gabbard and has abandoned Zelenskyy in Ukraine."

• Chamath Palihapitiya (23:30): "You're going to see energy prices spike... this thing is an albatross."

• Bill Kristol (27:10): "This is just another stupid Republican bill that cuts taxes predictably and doesn't cut spend."

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This episode of "The Bulwark Podcast" offers a critical examination of current political dynamics, focusing on Memorial Day's deeper significance, the contrast between neoconservative and Trump's foreign policies, and the pressing issues surrounding U.S. support for Ukraine. Bill Kristol and Tim Miller provide insightful analysis, advocating for policies rooted in freedom and purposeful action, while candidly critiquing contemporary political leadership and legislative shortcomings.

Transcript

[Bill Kristol]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is a Memorial Day. We're working. We're having an abbreviated show for you and it's Monday, so that means I'm here with Bill Crystal. How you doing, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

Fine, Tim. How are you?

[Tim Miller]

Did you get to barbecue or anything? Any grandkids?

[Bill Kristol]

A little bit. Well, they're of course too busy to actually see us because they're in extremely complicated baseball and softball tournaments which require multiple travel schedules. And, you know, it's very complicated.

[Tim Miller]

Are you an intense sports grandfather? Like, are you shouting at the field?

[Bill Kristol]

We are diligent and we enjoy it. I don't mean to make it sound like a duty. We go to McLean Little League a lot. Do. We don't go to the two hour travel games at Cal Rifkin Field in Near North.

[Tim Miller]

And you're not traveling to the umps. You haven't had any conflicts with umpires?

[Bill Kristol]

We're not. We're against the parents shouting at the umps. We don't have. What's that thing that our daughters have? But I noticed some other grandparents have. Do you know about this? It's like not called Pitch Watcher, but it's game. Game Watcher. Anyway, some parent puts in the pitch by pitch and you can get it on your little device. Well, on your own computer. Not a device. I'm just on your phone, you know. So, like if you're at work and you're missing the first two innings of the game, you can get the pitch by pitch of how your kid and all the other kids are doing. That's fine for the parents. I can see why they're very interested. But I think for the grandparents, Susan, I think that's a bridge too far.

[Tim Miller]

You know, I think that's a sign of mental illness.

[Bill Kristol]

Even if they're apparent, I don't even watch that for Major League Baseball. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Let alone, you know, I think it's okay to not know every. The result of every. Every swing, you know, every ball and strike. Anyway. Well, we have some very unserious Memorial Day thoughts. I thought it's nice. I will do the honor as well. Here on the pod, Adam Kuyper and our folks@the bulwark.com. you know, to bring a little bit of seriousness to Memorial Day. So it's not just talking about Donald Trump and his speech to the army cadets about trophy wives and Alphonse Capone, you know, to talk about what the traditionally the point was of Memorial Day. We've got Oliver Wendell Holmes, his 19th century anniversary speech, really, about kind of the Civil War veterans, where he talked about why Memorial Day is kept up. And he said it celebrates and solemnly reaffirms from year to year a national act of enthusiasm and faith that embodies in the most impressive form our belief that to act with enthusiasm and faith is the condition of acting greatly. To fight out a war, you must believe something and want something with all your might. So you must do to carry anything else to an end worth reaching. I guess that is kind of the element that makes it challenging to monitor the Donald Trump speeches about whether there actually is a greater thing that we are reaching for rather than just whatever American muscle porn. I don't know if you have any deep thoughts about that on the Memorial Day holiday.

[Bill Kristol]

I don't have deep thoughts. I like the Oliver Wendell Holmes speech. There's some other great Memorial Day speeches and poetry, obviously, in fact. And it's more difficult maybe today because the most recent wars haven't been ultimately been successful, not due to any failings on the part of our veterans, but due to whatever world circumstances or failures of political leadership or just maybe they weren't the right wars to fight. And that goes back, obviously, to Vietnam. I remember the Vietnam vets coming back. So, yeah, I think it's made it all, given it all a little bit more of a. I don't know what to say, a melancholy feel than Oliver Wendell Holmes pretty soon after the Civil War, maybe before reconstruction had really failed, you know, was kind of more in the enthusiasm side of it, which is fair enough. I mean, that's obviously a worthwhile sentiment, too. I had a conversation with Michael Wood, our friend, young friend from Dallas, yesterday, and he reflected on Memorial Day. Will Selber has a good piece on the website. Another Afghan vet. And I think that's tough seeing, you know, you fought there and you had friends, your people under your command and your platoons who died and were wounded, and you had Afghan friends who now we got out and the country's back to where Iraq, at least for a while, looked semi successful. And even now it's not Saddam Hussein. Right. But Afghanistan. It's not. Not good. And. And the way we got out was, of course, pretty bad. So, anyway, I do feel like maybe it's always had this melancholy aspect. How could it not? You know, you're honoring those who died.

[Tim Miller]

But, yeah, for sure. I mean, I do think, you know, it's probably not the moment to rehash, you know, all of our complex feelings about the, you know, neocon American greatness agenda. But there's something to be said for the fact that, like, in contrast with what Donald Trump offered in Saudi Arabia, the idea that there is something worth fighting for, that we're fighting for a goal that is greater than just mercantilistic American financial interests. And so even in failure, there's a greater purpose. And I think this ends up getting lost both in Vietnam and Iraq at various points. But at least it's an attempt to create a greater purpose for the people that are serving. And I do feel that on the heels of the failed wars and then now having somebody that's like the Memorial Day video today out from Trump and Hegseth is just like America. We don't care about climate change or democracy anymore. We just care about war fighting. That probably works for some people, but maybe isn't quite in the Memorial Day spirit.

[Bill Kristol]

No, I totally agree. And just be clear. I mean, I would say I'm more convinced of the merits in principle of let's call it the neocon greatness, true greatness, freedom, democracy, self government agenda, than ever watching the Trumpist alternative. It's one thing to have the alternative be just to be more cautious and a little less be more careful where we get involved. That's reasonable debate. Obviously, we had many of those debates over the decades, but the Trumpist agenda really for me has made me more convinced of the correctness of let's call it the Freedom Agenda as a fundamental principle for this country. And also that abandoning it abroad leads to correlates with abandoning it to large measure at home. Having said that, it also makes you, maybe the experiences of the last decades make one more aware or maybe one always should have been aware of the, you know, just the inevitably tragic and limited successes of any agenda, including the Freedom agenda. So I'm very much more than ever, honestly. I've rethought a lot of things as you have, I think, in our political lives. I gotta say that the foreign policy agenda is a matter of prudence and particular choices. I've obviously done a fair amount of reflecting and rethinking, but it's a matter of its basic correctness for this country and for the world. I actually am more. That's what I haven't changed from being a Scoop Jackson Democrat more than 50 years ago to a Reagan and McCain Republican to a Pro Zelensky Democrat, if I can use that term today.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I gotta hatch this out. I texted Ben Rhodes and I was like, it's overdue for you on the Bulwark Podcast, we can hash this out with him. But in his recent book, I was like, you know, again, some disagreements with the prudence of what had happened in the recent wars. But the thematics of Ben's book, which is basically that if you don't like the American world order, be careful about what's coming behind it, it's not pretty. I was like, there's some Bill Crystallian elements in that. So, anyway, I guess we'll watch.

[Bill Kristol]

I'll watch your discussion. I'll watch Ben Stacey, when you put it that way to him.

[Tim Miller]

You know, we'll hash that out together in the next couple weeks. Hey, guys, it's Tim and Sarah. We're here with my frenemy, John Lovett from Love it or Leave It. We're bringing you guys all a special.

[Bill Kristol]

Crossover collab with the Bulwark and Crooked Media.

[John Lovett]

The Never Trump Rhinos. Meet the self Important podcast bros. You.

[Tim Miller]

Are definitely the fucking self important one. June is Pride Month, and we're gonna be live in D.C. on June 6 for World Pride for a very special live show FundRaiser featuring the three of us, plus some gay special guests.

[John Lovett]

This one's a little different. Proceeds from tickets will be donated to support Andre Romero, the makeup artist who the Trump administration wrongly disappeared to El Salvador and who is currently being held in Sakat. Crooked and the Bulwark will be donating the proceeds from this fundraiser to the Immigrant Defenders Law Center.

[Tim Miller]

Tickets on sale [e-mail] events.

[Bill Kristol]

These are going fast, so get yours before they're gone.

[Tim Miller]

Go to Cross Crooked.com events and we.

[John Lovett]

Will see you all on June 6th.

[Tim Miller]

Trump yesterday. I did not. I couldn't watch it. I can't. He is at the West Point graduation. I saw some. Some pictures. He was in a MAGA hat. I saw a clip, as I mentioned earlier, where he was talking about trophy wives. I saw that he went golfing right afterwards. I don't know if there's much more to say about that, but I wanted to just give you an opportunity to share any thoughts you have.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, the MAGA hat, speaking to cadets on their graduation, it's so unbelievably inappropriate. Something they couldn't do and shouldn't do, right? They're warned not to wear anything that's political. You could say, well, making America great, I guess, isn't political. It's not like having a Trump 2024 hat. But it is pretty political, obviously. So that was terrible. Biden in 2022, who was, as we know, a little bit old and frail, stood and Shook every cadet, if I'm not mistaken, every graduating cadet's hand. Now, you don't have to do that. I don't think every president or vice president or the secretary of defense has spoken, has done that, to be fair. So. But Trump just went off to play golf, as you say, after giving this totally inappropriate speech in which he litigates various grievances against previous administrations. The one line that the trophy wise, it's really insane. But he also says something about how I brought the military back. No one wanted to join the military under Biden. He's saying this literally to a thousand plus cadets who volunteered to go to West Point and serve when Joe Biden was president. Right. I mean, it's so, I don't know, what's the word? Even, you know, it's grotesque and narcissistic. Narcissistic. I mean, to the degree the staff wrote some of that, maybe they didn't write those particular lines. They're as bad as he is. Can I make that point? Generally, this is another kind of conversation. But they are horrible. I mean, they are just sailing through life being Trump staffers, colluding and cooperating and enabling the most grotesque policies and statements and degradation of the American, of American life. And somehow they do not get called out on it enough. I feel like I've sort of thought about that a little and I don't even have the heart to go research exactly who's doing what. I don't even do, you know, even who Trump's top speechwriter is or anything. I can't even, it's not like old administrations or one cared a little bit and thought maybe this one would be a little better than that one or something. I mean, but they are all just, just going through, doing that. I don't know, I feel like the, the enabling and colluding of, of so many thousands, tens of thousands of people leaving aside everyone on the outside, all that stuff too. I find that kind of astonishing. I thought a little bit about, you know, the guy, the guy who shows up and gives Trump the, the executive orders to sign. Once Trump sits there at the desk with that ridiculous thing and he signs, you know, whatever thing they give him. And I've always, I've often wondered, like, who is that guy? And I'd like to little someone should do a tight, maybe we'll get someone at the board do this little story and is he proud to be giving Trump these, you know, orders that are, you know, destroying our biomedical research and shattering our social fabric? I don't know, maybe he is, he is proud.

[Tim Miller]

I'm blanking on his name right now, but I have read a little bit about him and he is proud. And it's a self selected group this time. And so, yeah, no, there is no really social comeuppance anymore. And so it's enough to really make you wish you believed in hell. So that's something I'm going to work on over the next few weeks. I want to talk about the actual policies. Trump spoke on the tarmac about Putin and how something's really changed with that guy. And then put out this extensive bleat, I guess, before I read it, just for context, for folks who have been checked out over the weekend, the most intense drone and missile strikes of the entire war targeting Ukraine happened over the weekend, targeting civilian targets, obviously, in addition to military targets in cities across Ukraine. So just very, very ugly stuff. And this is the President's reaction to that. I've always had a very good relationship with Vladimir Putin of Russia, but something has happened to him. He has gone absolutely crazy. All caps. He is needlessly killing a lot of people. And I'm not just talking about soldiers. Missiles and drones are being shot into cities in Ukraine for no reason whatsoever. Likewise, President Zelensky is doing his country no favors by talking the way he does everything out of his mouth causes problems. I don't like it and it better stop. This is a war that would never have started if I were president. This is Zelensky's, Putin's and Biden's war, not Trump's. I'm only helping put out the big and ugly fires that have been started. So I've got a lot of thoughts on that bleed, but why don't you take the lead?

[Bill Kristol]

There you go. You had a very interesting couple of tweets about it. So go, go ahead.

[Tim Miller]

Yes, well, there's, there's several thoughts. So point one is that he can't help but attack Zelensky and Biden. He can't just simply say what Vladimir Putin is doing is wrong. And you notice when he says to Zelensky, there's just one time in here where it says and it better stop. He's not saying to Putin and the bombing of people better stop. He never says that. He says the stuff coming out of Zelenskyy's mouth better stop. So the one time where he kind of butchers himself up to feel tough enough to tell somebody to actually change their behavior, he's talking to Zelenskyy, not Putin. I think that's Important to note. It's also important, I think, to note the contrast between, again, as I mentioned, kind of this, the West Point speech in the video and Hegseth where they're talking about how our war fighters are tough and we're not doing drag shows anymore, and we're just. Our military is just going to be strong again versus again, this statement, which is pretty weak, frankly, which is essentially not threatening Vladimir Putin with any military response at all. Just kind of doing a psychoanalysis of him. But to me, the most interesting thing about it, and I think that this is genuine, he starts it by saying, I always had a very good relationship with Vladimir Putin. And I think there is a psychoanalysis element of this where I don't think that's a put on. I think Trump thinks he and Putin had a very good relationship because I don't think Trump has any real friends. I don't think Trump has any complex relationships with people that have good and bad inside them and where they've gone through struggles together and come out the other side. I don't think he has any real friendships. I think his judgment of a good relationship is, if somebody's nice to me, we have a good relationship. If somebody's mean to me, we have a bad relationship. It's like a very childlike assessment of human nature. And so, as insane as this seems, I think it's possible that Trump really has been surprised by this, thinks he and Putin were friends and thinks that something has changed in Putin and does not recognize that they never really had a relationship at all and that Putin's been using him the whole time. So that's my annotated reaction to his bleach. I don't know what you think.

[Bill Kristol]

No, I think that's very intelligent and interesting. I mean, I also think, as you say, he's not doing anything. Putin can find some way to stroke Trump and Trump will be back on board. Basically, we'll forget this in a week. Decent people who hope their forces in that maybe Trump will come around, he'll realize that he can't afford to lose in Ukraine. It'll make him look bad. And there are people in the administration who want to do better. I mean, that's looking increasingly like a very slim hope that Trump is going to pivot. But I just come back to, again, it's the enablers, right? I mean, there are half the Republican members of Congress voted for aid to Ukraine a year ago. They could do so again. There's a lot that Ukraine needs to combat this, particularly these larger and larger waves of Russian attacks. And the Russians have improved their capabilities. A lot of help from North Korea and Iran. The Ukrainians have massively improved their capabilities. One of the. Really. Someone was telling me this the other day, who knows this stuff in a way, I certainly don't. What Ukraine has done over the last two years is a matter of actual. Just military kind of learning and upgrading is sort of jaw dropping, you know, sort of. Maybe the US or World War II would be a comparable example. But they can't do it all themselves. We could help them. I mean, that's just a fact. And so I'm sick of all the, you know, a couple of people tweeted, it was very nice. Don Bacon, I think one, maybe one or two Republicans, the Republican member from Nebraska, very upset by what Putin's doing. Very bad. If only they were actually members of Congress who could, in Bacon's case, have refused to vote for the reconciliation bill if it didn't have aid for Ukraine or if Trump didn't separately introduce or if the leadership didn't introduce and guarantee a vote on aid for Ukraine. That vote would pass. Incidentally, Johnson just has to let it come to the floor. Thune has to let it come to the floor. Maybe Trump would veto it, maybe he wouldn't. Incidentally, I'm not so sure. He wouldn't be overridden and maybe just to sign off on it. So, again, the passivity of elected officials who have supposedly real responsibilities and supposedly real commitments and views on these things, I just, I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I want to call out one person in particular on this point, Bill, and that's John Thune. I feel like John Thune has just gotten a really big pass. You know, maybe just because he's like a generic Ken doll of a senator and people don't know him that well. He doesn't have kind of the reputation that Mitch McConnell does. He doesn't pop off on social media. And so I think that he gets to kind of hide in the background more than he deserves as the Senate leader. And I know John Thune. I've got to meet John Thune. I know people that worked for John Thune. John Thune has traditional Republican, strong military, anti Russia, pro NATO views. At least he did his whole career. And he's been in there a long time. And Jonathan was never, never had like a Rand Paul libertarian streak or one of the. Like a nationalist, isolationist stre. Him. Jonathan was indistinguishable as a politician through his stated words and actions from a Mitch McConnell or from pre Trump administration Marco like that was John TH and he has paid lip service to being pro Ukraine. He's always voted on the Ukraine side. When things came to a vote, he could do this, he could put up a bill, he could spearhead a bill through the Senate that provides more assistance and help to Ukraine. Right now. And I agree with you, I think it would pass and I think it'd pass with a veto proof majority and maybe depending on how the politics play out, whether Trump pressures people or strong arms people. But I think it would and the fact that he's not doing it is really shameful and weak and I think it merits just being called out specifically.

[Bill Kristol]

Jonathan no, that's really, that's well said. I mean, I'm glad you developed that point because Johnson gets beat up some because he's not, you know, he's such a right wing and the media isn't personally sympathetic. I wouldn't say to Mike Johnson, but Thune's their friend and so he gets. But Thune has in no way been more responsible than Johnson. And indeed, before the reconciliation bill, the one actual series of votes that were cast in either house that mattered were the confirmation votes where Thune led the Senate Republicans in confirming Hegseth Patel Gabbard, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And I just that thing, we fought those, I mean we fought, we, we editorialized against the confirmations, we reported on it. It was kind of a big issue for us in November, December, January, which I'm glad we did our best. I wish we had more effect, but that we've sort of memory hold a little bit. I mean that was a huge moment. I think in retrospect, it really signaled that for the foreseeable future there would be no opposition to the most easily opposable thing, the most obviously unqualified, the kind of craziest nominations. And they didn't oppose them. One or two or three Republicans opposed all those nominees and now they're a, they're in office and doing a lot of damage. If I could just say whether it's Hank, Seth or Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Tulsi Gabbard firing intelligence analysts who try to tell the truth. And it really was a marker of just, I guess even afterwards some of I thought a little, well, maybe that's Trump's personal nominations, they didn't want to oppose Trump on something he cared about. But on policy it'll be a little different. But no, the capitulation was thorough at the beginning. It has been thorough ever since.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And just a Simple way to put it is John Thune carried water for Tulsi Gabbard and has abandoned Zelenskyy in Ukraine. That's what he's done. No matter what he says or what he thinks his position is on private or what he, you know, maybe in private, you know, he's made a phone call or two. But from a public standpoint, through five months of being leader, that's what his record is. Just one specific example of this. I sent you this article Michael Weiss flagged for me about these specific missiles, these PAC3 missiles which are the response missiles that Ukraine needs to stop the ballistic missiles that are in from Russia. And as you've mentioned, Russia's stockpiled a bunch of these and they were the ones causing a lot of damage this weekend. And Zelensky is saying that Ukraine will pay whatever it takes. Presumably Europe is helping with that. It's a Lockheed, I guess that makes these. And the White House remains just non committal on this. So again, there are specific things that we can do that are defensive to protect Ukrainian civilians. And Ukraine has said they will pay for them. It's not even aid and yet we're still not doing it.

[Bill Kristol]

It's shameful. It's shameful really. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Shameful. I don't know much more to say than that. One more thing in Congress and then we'll let everybody get back to their holiday after this uplifting lesson. The big beautiful bill I want to play. I was listening over the weekend a listener flagged for me the all in podcast. For folks who aren't familiar, it's these like four tech bros who to varying degrees have kind of thrown in with Trump. David Ball Sacks most famously is actually working for Trump is his AI and cryptos are Chamath Pipatia has been I think the most. He was an Obama supporting tech guy who's gone full in with Trump to do the fundraiser for him. There are a couple other guys also it was interesting because they've been also water carrying on this show for the most part. I should Jason, who I had on this pod before the election at times has been critical of Trump. But Chamath in particular and Sachs have just been carrying water for all of the most noxious things that Trump is doing, particularly on immigration. And so I thought it was noteworthy that now that we're kind of closer to these guys wheelhouse when it comes to finances what they're saying about the bill and so I want to listen to Chamath here real quick.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

You're going to see energy prices spike. You're gutting the number of electrons that will be available for things like AI. You're going to increase Medicare prices. And the math is wrong. So when you sensitize this thing to a four and a half or five or five and a quarter rate, so. Meaning not what the CBO used, but the real conditions on the ground, this thing is an albatross. And I think unfortunately for President Trump's agenda and for a MAGA movement, this is the worst of all conditions. The financial markets will punish this.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I think that just kind of taking out the sort of ideological and the political side of this, the folks that are just looking at it as straight math have pretty alarming things to say about the bill that's going through Congress right now.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I don't know these guys as well as you do, but maybe they could have weighed in a little bit like when it was in play and gotten a few things changed. Isn't like one of them was in the White House, but I guess, you know, you just complain about the one.

[Tim Miller]

That'S in the White House was actually spinning for it, I should say, on this pod. But all the other three were all.

[Bill Kristol]

Criticizing again, the others, maybe. The others did make some calls. And of course you can't really get any Republican to desert Trump or to insist on even some changes in it, though. I mean, there were particular aspects of it that are more damaging than others. No, it's all terrible. And the immigration policy. These guys should, I think, understand why it's important to have lots of immigrants in this country. But from their point of view, probably especially high skilled immigrants who will help us maintain our edge if we still have it. I hope we do.

[Tim Miller]

Who maybe went to Harvard, for example.

[Bill Kristol]

Innovation, high tech. Right. Or any other place where they're busy. Harvard just is obviously the tip of the sphere there. So I don't know, are they weighing in in a big way? I guess I haven't really heard that, but I welcome them. If to the degree that they're tiptoeing away from total slavishness to maga, of course they still have to put it as if what's really bad about this, it's hurting the MAGA agenda, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

Not. It's hurting the country.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

Okay, enough of my. But we should welcome. No, no, I know. I. I'm too. We need to welcome all of our new allies, et cetera, et cetera.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not welcoming Chamath. I'm just saying that it is interesting that somebody Again, I think it actually makes this the point stronger. The fact that people that understand you have to assume if you speak to them privately after their microdosing, ketamine or whatever it is that people do in Silicon Valley these days, when they're being candid, you have to assume that they are not thrilled with at least the high skilled immigrant, that side, the useful to them side of the immigration policy and the fact that people are being scared away from this country. And you might assume maybe not, I don't know, that some of them would have issues with the research being gutted since that is supporting, you know, a lot of the high tech, you know, work that, that these guys are investing in, you know, particularly in biomedical space and elsewhere. But like the fact that none of that like rose to the level where they're like, we have to raise, we have to, you know, kind of wave a flag of caution. And that this did, I think just speaks to how bad it is on the merits. And because it is like in a, it is a pretty traditional Republican framework. You know, I do think maybe like the intensity of the criticism is a little different than on the stuff that is uniquely Trump, like banning foreign students from Harvard or something, you know, the El Salvador. Right. But like since this is like tax cuts and spending cuts, right, it's like traditional Republican stuff, but it's tax cuts and spending cuts just on steroids. And it is at a time that it's particularly ill suited for, given what's happening in the broader economy. And just really quick, here's Jessica Riedel summing it up. This bill costs more than the Trump tax cuts. The Biden Cares act and the Biden American Rescue Plan combined. They're going to spend a 52 billion to bail out farmers that's tucked in here. And most importantly, and this relates to something Chamath said, it's already raising interest rates. We have interest rates that are high for recent times. Every time I bring that up, some of our Boomer listeners are like, interest rates are Nothing compared to 1978. But it's high for recent times. Interest rates already are. And you saw it in the bond market last week. Chamath goes on and talks about this at greater length in that podcast. And you're seeing it now that it's so irresponsible fiscally that it is going to keep pushing interest rates higher, which has an impact on everybody. So anyway, I just think that's the interesting part of why it's worth flagging the criticism here.

[Bill Kristol]

I agree with that, actually. I myself have been a little too. This is just another stupid Republican bill that cuts taxes predictably and doesn't cut spend. And the only spending of cuts is for poor people. The food aid and especially Medicaid, obviously. But I think that's a good point, that it's one thing to pass this in 2017 when after the Great Recession and after we'd fixed, I think a lot of the financial sides of things. We'd had a slow growth with growth for six years. We had low interest rates. You could afford to pass a maybe somewhat foolish bill, but the country sort of the economy chugged along. If you looked at some big chart from 20, you would barely notice. As a macroeconomic thing, I bet that tax bill kind of just the same rate of growth. Right. Doing it when you're in a much more precarious position. Well, he inherited a good economy, mind you, but with interest rates especially being high, inflation not quite under control, and the pandemic leading to a lot of more debts, deficit spending. Yeah, I think it's probably riskier. I think the interest rate focus is right. I mean, just borrowing at 5%, the federal government borrowing trillions of dollars or billions of dollars, at least hundreds of billions at 5% as opposed to a 2% or something really changes the math, right?

[Tim Miller]

It changes it significantly. So, okay, we'll keep monitoring this obviously to the Senate. We'll see. I don't have a lot of hope for my man John Thune to really find his old fiscal hawkish muscles.

[Bill Kristol]

Maybe text his. Email him today and say, look, we were pretty tough on you today and if you want to come on, have a respectful half hour discussion, that'll be a test of you. But it'll.

[Tim Miller]

We should do that. I will email Jonathan. I'm not counting my chickens on that one. But we will. We'll send Jon Thun an email, see if he wants to come on the pod and hash it out. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe there is some really smart considered policy happening behind the scenes when it comes to our fiscal situation and the war in Ukraine. I'm not optimistic about that, but hope springs eternal. Bill Kristol, thank you so much. Have a great Memorial Day.

[Bill Kristol]

You too, Tim. Thanks.

[Tim Miller]

Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark podcast and we'll see you all there time. Peace.

[Unknown]

I got that, y' all. I got that. Everybody wanna know where the crib's at just now getting nice. So we did that. Mommy staring at me like she wanna get kidnapped. Money looking happy with his life but we trans down along with Lisa, Aisha, Shonda, Renee Even ran through the doors down in Morgan State in Miami Pool party off a chain getting brains underwater on Memorial Day grab mommy y' all cool as it's your birthday show me what I'm fooling with like no doubt poke it all out pull your G string down south pass that give shorty a shot soon enough we gonna see if she naughty or not Come on E Feeling ready and hot I give him 20 a pop you wanna roll eat a panties atop.

[Bill Kristol]

Got Chris on pop Henny with no J to the spot and it's full of homies.

[Unknown]

Terror squad rock what the what the what like chips like us?

[Bill Kristol]

Some of these cats is doing their.

[Unknown]

Own thing but none of these cats.

[Tim Miller]

Run trips like us.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, we don't stop going up six o' clock.

[Unknown]

You know what this is? What the fuck? What?

[Tim Miller]

The Bullork podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.