S2 Ep1051: Pete Buttigieg: Dream Bigger, Talk More Boldly

Summary

Summary of The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1051 with Pete Buttigieg – "Dream Bigger, Talk More Boldly"

Release Date: May 27, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Pete Buttigieg, former Mayor of South Bend, Secretary of Transportation, and 2020 Presidential Candidate

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1. Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes former Transportation Secretary and 2020 presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg. The conversation delves deep into pressing political issues, ranging from foreign policy and domestic legislation to cultural polarization and emerging technologies. Buttigieg offers insightful analysis, reflecting on past administrations, current challenges, and envisioning future policies that aim to strengthen liberal democracy.

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2. Foreign Policy and the Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Trump's Handling of Russia and Putin's Aggression

Miller opens the discussion by addressing recent statements from former President Donald Trump criticizing Vladimir Putin and contrasting them with the escalating tensions in Ukraine. He references a report from the Wall Street Journal about the U.S. reinforcing Europe’s northern front in response to Russia's territorial gains.

Buttigieg responds critically, highlighting Trump's "incompetence" and inability to effectively counter Putin's maneuvers:

"I think no one should be surprised to see Putin continuing to play the president... what happens when you have someone who doesn't know what he's doing and is incapable of standing up to Putin."
(02:17)

He underscores the worsening situation, emphasizing that Trump's initial promises to swiftly resolve the conflict have not materialized, leading to increased instability both internationally and domestically.

U.S. Support for Ukraine: Congressional and European Roles

Buttigieg discusses the bipartisan support that existed for Ukraine in previous administrations but notes the current gap:

"I saw how much bipartisan support there was for Ukraine... but look, they know what the right thing to do is on a lot of these issues. It doesn't mean they're going to step up and do it."
(04:04)

He acknowledges Europe’s efforts to fill the leadership vacuum left by the Trump administration but expresses concern over the hesitancy within the U.S. Congress to provide substantial support.

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3. El Salvador and Human Rights Concerns

U.S. Policy Towards El Salvador

The conversation shifts to the troubling situation in El Salvador, where authoritarian measures are reportedly being implemented. Miller suggests that the U.S. and its allies signal to El Salvador that oppressive regimes will face international consequences.

Buttigieg draws parallels to the Saudi response following the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi:

"I do think there's something to signaling to El Salvador that their leadership could be isolated in the long run... if the number one thing people here know about El Salvador is that they did some of the dirtiest things, they wouldn't want to be known for that."
(05:29)

He advocates for credible actions that could compel El Salvador’s leadership to reconsider their human rights abuses, emphasizing the importance of long-term isolation as a deterrent.

Potential Democratic Actions and Challenges

Miller probes the feasibility of Democrats introducing sanctions against El Salvador, questioning whether such measures would prompt meaningful change. Buttigieg responds by affirming the importance of using foreign policy tools to uphold human rights while cautioning against actions driven solely by political motivations rather than genuine concern for American taxpayers.

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4. Domestic Policy: The Budget Bill and Deficit

Analysis of the Budget Bill

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dissecting a major budget bill impacting the U.S. economy. Buttigieg critiques the bill for exacerbating the national deficit while simultaneously enacting tax cuts for the wealthy and cutting health insurance for millions:

"Cutting taxes for the wealthy, destroying health insurance for millions of Americans and adding to the debt while you're at it is bad policy and I think it's bad politics."
(09:14)

He highlights how the bill aligns with conservative priorities of deficit reduction but opposes liberal interests in expanding social safety nets.

Debt and Deficit: Democratic Responsibility

Buttigieg urges Democrats to own the narrative surrounding national debt, arguing that past administrations from both parties have historically increased the deficit. He emphasizes the importance of communicating responsible fiscal policies:

"Democrats should own that we've shown the best results of getting the deficit under control or even at certain points, running a surplus. So Democrats should own that."
(13:43)

He contrasts this with current Republican strategies that continue to prioritize tax cuts over deficit management, ultimately harming working-class Americans through higher interest rates and reduced Medicaid coverage.

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5. Reflections on the Biden Administration

Handling of COVID-19 and Economic Policies

Buttigieg reflects on the Biden administration’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic, suggesting that earlier and safer school reopenings could have mitigated long-term educational and economic impacts:

"For the love of God, figure out a way to get the schools open sooner... the costs were not just politically, but in a profound way."
(32:09)

He also touches on immigration and economic policy, advocating for a more nuanced approach that addresses both border security and inflation management.

Counterfactual Scenarios

Discussing what could have been done differently, Buttigieg mentions the delicate balance between aggressive administration actions and maintaining principles of due process. He acknowledges the complexity of political decisions and the challenges in preventing the rise of populist figures like Trump:

"It's hard to play out the counterfactual... you have to weigh that against the fact that he was going to say that no matter what."
(35:31)

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6. Cultural and Political Polarization

Condemnation vs. Empathy Towards Trump Voters

A pivotal discussion centers on the cultural divide between Democrats and Trump supporters. Buttigieg emphasizes the need for Democrats to avoid condescension and instead appeal to the best in people:

"We need to call out to what's best in people, because we already... we're never going to be as good at it as he is."
(28:23)

He warns against alienating voters by attributing negative traits to their support for Trump, advocating for a more empathetic and inclusive approach to bridge the cultural gap.

Impact of Inequality and Information Sources

Buttigieg links rising inequality and fragmented information sources to the growing cynicism and support for extremist figures. He argues that addressing economic disparities and ensuring access to reliable information are crucial for mitigating political polarization:

"Anytime you see this level of inequality... and the fact that we're not getting information from sources that consult both sides... it's a recipe for cynicism."
(24:25)

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7. Information, AI, and Technological Transformation

Concerns Over Artificial Intelligence

The conversation shifts to the transformative impact of artificial intelligence (AI) on the economy and society. Buttigieg outlines two possible futures:

1. Concentration of Wealth and Power: A scenario where a small elite controls advanced AI technologies, exacerbating economic inequalities and diminishing democratic agency.
2. Economic Democratization: A future where AI enables greater economic security and shorter workweeks, allowing Americans more time for personal and community pursuits.

"One of two things will happen. Either we have even more enormous concentration of wealth... Or we figure out a way to deal more of the American people into the enormous value that's being created here."
(51:32)

He stresses the importance of proactive policy-making to steer AI development towards equitable outcomes.

Digital Identification Systems

Buttigieg also advocates for modernizing the U.S. digital identification systems to enhance security and efficiency:

"We do it in the most jumbled, screwed up, antiquated and insecure set of ways... we have to improve our screwed up, upside down system and authentication."
(56:30)

He highlights successful models from countries like Estonia and India as benchmarks for the U.S. to emulate.

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8. Other Topics

The Jones Act and U.S. Shipping

Buttigieg discusses the Jones Act, a longstanding U.S. law that mandates cargo between U.S. ports be transported on American-built and crewed vessels. He acknowledges its role in supporting the domestic shipping industry but calls for enhanced efforts to expand American shipbuilding capacity:

"So the Jones act exists to support... we could be doing so much more to build up American shipping and shipbuilding."
(53:13)

Healthcare and Medicaid Cuts

Addressing Medicaid cuts affecting transgender individuals, Buttigieg asserts the importance of accessible healthcare:

"Healthcare is healthcare and you should be able to get healthcare. And attacking that as part of this legislation is just one more example of politicians stepping on somebody's face to get ahead politically."
(56:52)

Pride Month and Corporate Influence

The conversation touches on the commercialization of Pride Month and its political implications, with Buttigieg suggesting a return to the movement’s protest roots:

"It's getting a little corporate... maybe we'll have a little more of that political edge to it."
(57:27)

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9. Personal Insights and Closing

In a lighter segment, Buttigieg shares personal anecdotes about parenting and family life, illustrating the balance between public service and private responsibilities. He reflects on the joys and challenges of raising children, emphasizing the importance of fostering curiosity and wonder:

"They're starting to make sense, but not completely... there's just all this randomness."
(59:30)

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between host and guest, underscoring the value of open dialogue and collaborative efforts to address America’s multifaceted challenges.

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Notable Quotes

• Pete Buttigieg on Trump's Incompetence:
  "I think no one should be surprised to see Putin continuing to play the president... what happens when you have someone who doesn't know what he's doing and is incapable of standing up to Putin."
  (02:17)

• On the Budget Bill's Impact:
  "Cutting taxes for the wealthy, destroying health insurance for millions of Americans and adding to the debt while you're at it is bad policy and I think it's bad politics."
  (09:14)

• Addressing Cultural Polarization:
  "We need to call out to what's best in people, because we already... we're never going to be as good at it as he is."
  (28:23)

• On the Future of AI:
  "One of two things will happen. Either we have even more enormous concentration of wealth... Or we figure out a way to deal more of the American people into the enormous value that's being created here."
  (51:32)

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Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast provides a comprehensive exploration of contemporary political issues through the lens of Pete Buttigieg. From foreign policy and economic legislation to cultural divisions and technological advancements, Buttigieg advocates for bold, imaginative strategies to navigate and resolve the complexities facing the United States. His emphasis on empathy, fiscal responsibility, and forward-thinking policies offers a roadmap for addressing both immediate challenges and future uncertainties.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Foreign. Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back former mayor of South Bend, Transportation secretary in the Biden administration. He ran for president in 2020, tied the Iowa caucus. It's tinker, mayor, soldier, secretary Pete Buttigieg. What's up, man?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I'm doing well. Good to see you.

[Tim Miller]

You got a lot of titles now. I don't know what to call you anymore.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, let's just stick with Pete. I think it'll be a little easier.

[Tim Miller]

Pete sounds good. I want to start with news. Then we'll get into, you know, with are the Democrats with our democracy and all that. I guess those things are related. Over the weekend, Trump, both in a bleat on truth Social and in a kind of a gaggle outside of an airplane, talked about how Putin's gone crazy and he's not the same man he once knew. And meanwhile, we got the Wall Street Journal reporting this morning that the US Is working on reinforc Europe's northern front and preparing for an escalating war with Russia as Russia's taking more territory in Ukraine over the weekend. I'm just wondering what you make of all that.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think no one should be surprised to see Putin continuing to play the president. And it's really tough to watch. It's, again, unsurprising, but still upsetting to see this unravel the way it is. I mean, I'm pretty sure I remember Trump saying that he would solve the war on day one. Like most of what he says, I think even his supporters assume that was an exaggeration. But for it to start getting worse beginning on day one and now be getting much worse as we go into day 150 or whatever this is of his presidency shows what happens when you have someone who doesn't know what he's doing and is incapable of standing up to Putin.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, there's actually, in some circumstances, there's an important distinction between bluster and misjudgment. Right. Like, a lot of Trump's defenders will argue that, like a lot of what he says is just bluster and negotiation and positioning because he's really going to be tough on the back end. Right. This doesn't really feel like that situation. It feels like he genuinely got fooled somehow or whatever, or convinced himself that he and Putin were buddies because they went through the Russia collusion hoax together. I can't quite explain it. That's right.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I remember him saying something about how tough that was on Putin and how that really bonded them I mean, look, one thing we know about Putin is he takes advantage of every situation that he can. He's extremely strategic, he's extremely cold and calculating. And he continues to see an advantage in being able to run circles around this president. So there's already obviously just the weirdness of Donald Trump and Russia. But alongside that weirdness is a kind of weakness in figuring out how to manage this and even create the impression that he's making any progress. Because, yeah, I don't think even his supporters believed him when he said, I'd solve this on day one. But whenever he says, I'm going to fix it on day one, I'm going to solve the war on day one, I'm going to get prices back down on day one. I think that's supposed to be a proxy for, you're going to see quick results. And we're not seeing quick results, we're seeing it get worse. Whether we're talking about prices here at home or whether we're talking about the situation in Eastern Europe.

[Tim Miller]

Is there anything, I guess, that can be done? And he won the election. Has Congress, has the Senate. I do think that there's a contingent of Republicans in the Senate that if there's a secret ballot vote, would vote to be doing more to help Ukraine right now. Can Democrats on the Hill shame them, pressure them, or do you feel like Ukraine is sort on their own and it's up to Europe to kind of fill the void here?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Look, I think Europe is doing its best to step into the American leadership vacuum that President Trump has created. But I agree. I mean, I saw how much bipartisan support there was for Ukraine, having been in the administration when the full scale invasion broke out, seen in the Senate and the House. A lot of Republicans who know what the right thing to do is, but look, they know what the right thing to do is on a lot of these issues. It doesn't mean they're going to step up and do it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we'll kind of just pop around the world a little bit. I want to talk about the El Salvador situation. This has been something that's been very upsetting to me. We've been talking about a lot, I've been working through similar to that Ukraine question. What, if anything, can be done? And one thing that a couple people have mentioned to me is that maybe Democrats and our Western allies, Western Europe, Canada, should start signaling to El Salvador that Trump's not going to be around forever. And if they want to become a prison state where they just put people in a hole with no access to lawyers, no access to due process, then they're going to get treated like North Korea and Venezuela when it comes to trade, travel, et cetera, going forward. What do you make of that? Like being more aggressive with El Salvador?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think it's appealing, but only if it's credible. I mean, in a way, it reminds me of all of the blowback directed at the Saudi leadership after the killing of Khashoggi. And look, that actually did. They cared about that. Not enough that they completely changed their ways, but you could tell that the Saudi leadership was taken it aback when they realized the extent to which the American public and the world were horrified by those actions. So I do think there's something to signaling to El Salvador that their leadership could be isolated in the long run, not only in terms of a lot of other countries, but eventually in terms of the United States. If the number one thing people here know about El Salvador is, is that they did some of the dirtiest of.

[Tim Miller]

This administration's dirty work, should maybe Democrats in the Senate, like, introduce a direct sanctions bill? I hear what you're saying about us Saudi, but Saudi didn't start acting like I wish that they would act. But you're right, they did start acting differently. I mean, they haven't killed any other journalists anytime recently. So that's a pro that we know of.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, look, this is all relative, but sometimes those things matter more than you might guess that they would, especially because Salvadoran president emerged on the international scene as kind of a golden boy. I mean, he was being celebrated all around the world before he took a pretty dark turn. And I just can't imagine that you would want to be known in the long run. And remember, this is also a very young leader. I don't think you want to be known in the long run for this kind of thing.

[Tim Miller]

You have any other thoughts on what can be done in this situation? I mean, it's pretty. It's quite unprecedented. I look back at the Bush administration, you think about some of the Abu Ghraib or what's happening in Guantanamo. I mean, there were black sites. Like, there were things that happened in the Bush administration that folks that weren't privy to. But eventually we knew who was in Guantanamo. Right? I mean, what is done here is a step beyond that when it comes to human rights, when it comes to lack of transparency, I mean, Jimmy, not.

[Pete Buttigieg]

To mention rule of law, not some abstract international human rights law. American law says that you can't do this, that when you put somebody in that situation, you Got to bring them back. The due process matters. And the tough reality right now is that as long as you have an acquiescent Congress as well as a rogue administration, that third branch of government, the judiciary, can only do so much.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I do think we're gonna get into your. Your visit into the manosphere in a minute, but I didn't think it was notable that, like, Rogan pushed back on this. Right. Like, I do think this is an area where you can talk about it. Like some Democrats are kind of scared to talk about it because immigration is for a good reason. But, like, this is unique, I think.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, no, I think it is telling that this is where Rogan has parted ways with the President. And at the same time, I think it makes total sense. Look, something that conservatives and liberals and libertarians in particular all ought to be able to agree on is that we're horrified by the idea that our government can, without due process and potentially illegally just pack somebody off to a foreign prison, no matter what they're accused of doing. It is extremely disturbing that they could just decide that the President just doesn't like your stupid face and one day he ships you to a foreign black site. Right. And I think that the coalition that, such as it is, that stands behind Trump sees the problem with this. But a bigger question I continue to have is libertarians of the world, like American libertarians, where the hell are you? If you're not ready to stand up after years of saying that rules on water pollution are government overreach, where are you now that the President is trying to withdraw the broadcast license of a TV station that airs coverage that criticizes him? Or stuff people into a van and ship them off?

[Tim Miller]

Ron Paul. Pete's putting up the Ron Paul bat signal. Where are you?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Where are you? Ron Paul?

[Tim Miller]

Do you still exist out there? I want to talk about the Hill. What's happened on the Hill? I guess I could ask a long wind up question, but I might as well just let you cook on the big beautiful bill and what you make of it.

[Pete Buttigieg]

It has something for every part of the American political spectrum to hate. So for conservatives, there's the fact that it explodes the deficit and the debt even more. One thing that I take seriously from the conservative perspective is the idea that we have to be more responsible about the debt, especially as it's. Once you cross that 100% debt to GDP ratio and you add to it. Especially because part of why we've been able to get away with that much debt is the rock solid reputation for political and economic stability that the US has enjoyed, obviously that's got some holes in it. So not a great time to be adding trillions to the debt. So I think conservatives can see how disturbing that is. Meanwhile, most Americans and definitely most liberals don't love the tax cuts for the rich that are in there, which is part of why there is such a big debt and deficit. And then you got something that is especially disturbing to liberals. But again, I think the whole country gets, at least most of the country gets, which is that kicking 8 million Americans off of health insurance on purpose is a bad idea. It's wrong and it's going to make America less healthy. And it doesn't make any sense, especially when we know that the reason that they're doing it is partly to fund these tax cuts for the wealthiest. So this is not incredibly complicated, even though a budget bill can fundamentally be very complicated. The facts here are simple. The fact is cutting taxes for the wealthy, destroying health insurance for millions of Americans and adding to the debt while you're at it is bad policy and I think it's bad politics. But it's up to those of us who stand in opposition to make sure there's actually a political penalty for getting on board with this sort of thing.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I kind of think it's insane policy and politics, actually. I truly don't like, I kind of don't understand it. I forget I was talking to John Chait on Friday and he was like, Tim, you just were blinded by the fact that your whole life, like tax cuts for the rich is a religion among the Republicans since they don't need to rationalize it in any way. And so maybe that's true. Why do you think that they have put forth this is the only thing they're going to pass this year. And it goes in direct conflict to what we're about to talk about with regards to the politics of this country, about how they are purportedly pivoting to being a more working class oriented party. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, it's terrible for working class Americans on every level. Whether we talk about. Because take the debt, which sounds like very abstract, right? But working Americans who are hoping to buy their first home are among those who are most going to be paying the bill for the tax cuts for the rich, not just because the tax burden moves, but because you're going to be seeing that likely in the form of interest rates. Right. To say nothing of Medicaid. One really important thing to point out about Medicaid, we're talking about a lot of people who any given month might fall out of the work requirements not because they did anything wrong, not because they stopped working, but because they don't get enough hours that week or that month. And working class Americans in particular understand that vulnerability that you don't get to set your own schedule and you don't always get the hours to have that not only mean you're losing wages, but also that you're threatening being kicked off of your health care. Frankly, it goes to the almost caricature version of the worst of old school Republicans versus the thing I most respect about old school Republicans, which is the extent to which they talked and cared about liberty.

[Tim Miller]

I was saving this. I had a Tim used to be a Republican policy section at the end of the podcast. We'll just do it right now. Are we going to finally negatively polarize Democrats into really talking about the debt and deficit a lot? It has been an issue that. Sure. I'll just preempt your answer for me, which is that Bill Clinton handled this better than any Republicans did, but the debt went up significantly under Biden. We are paying a huge amount now in interest on the debt that's going to balloon significantly more after this bill, especially if interest rates stay high. And that's gonna mean that the government can't fund things that are progressive priorities. And yet Democrats sometimes will talk about it if they get asked about it on a news show. But it doesn't feel like it's been really an animating issue for Democrats for a while. Do you think that might change?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Look, Democrats, I think allergy to talking about the debt mostly comes from it having been used as an excuse to not make investments that we believe in. But yeah, now we've made enormous investments in the last few years in roads, highways, bridges, research chips, all kinds of infrastructure, some of that being at risk of being rolled back. But we've made massive investments. Those are the kinds of deficit spending that economists would say makes sense in the same way that it makes sense to take out a loan to build your business. But what we're talking about now is watching the mounting debt grow and adding to it with a massive tax cut for the rich. And to your point, you know, one reason I think it makes sense right now for Democrats to get more comfortable talking about deficits in the debt is that as a rule, we've been better at handling it. Don't get me wrong. I mean, both parties have added to the national debt in spectacular fashion.

[Tim Miller]

But we're grading on a curve. You made it to Harvard. Pete, you know, we're not. You didn't get.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, look, I mean, if you look at who's shown the best results of getting the deficit under control or even at certain points, running a surplus, it ain't Republicans. So Democrats should own that.

[Tim Miller]

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[Pete Buttigieg]

A couple things. First of all, when we're talking about this research funding, this isn't paying Harvard money that they get to just sit on. This is, in effect, hiring Harvard to solve problems. So when we've got funding, especially funding that goes to things like cancer research or preventing veteran suicide, which I believe was in the scope of one of the contracts that was put on the, on the chopping block. I think that one was Harvard. You know, we're talking about using the resources and the brain power at that university or any of the other universities that compete for federal funding to address problems that make the American people better off. It's not about what can the federal government do for the university. It's about what value can the university bring the taxpayer? Because it turns out not just anybody can do some of the incredibly complex research, whether we're talking about what goes on at the medical school or physics or a whole lot of other things. So that's the first thing. The second thing that I think is really important is we're not talking about some clear eyed analytical assessment of the value we're getting for contracts. I would be on board with that. If you're saying, look, we're funding all this research, but we need to be more rigorous about how much of that research is actually getting results, I think that makes total sense. But of course, this isn't happening because of anything related to benefiting the American taxpayer. This is happening because of politics. And if we become the kind of country where a university is dismantled because it doesn't line up with the politics of the man who happens to be in charge of the government, we cannot possibly be the world's leading nation.

[Tim Miller]

All right, Our smug vice president has a counterpoint to you on this, so I'm going to read you his tweet. He says there's an extraordinary reproducibility crisis in the sciences where most published papers fail to replicate. Universities have massive bureaucracies. The voting patterns of university professors resemble North Korea. Many universities explicitly engage in racial discrimination against whites and also Asians. Universities could see the policies of the Trump administration as a necessary corrective, or they could yell fascism. What do you say to the vice president, replica.

[Pete Buttigieg]

It's, it's just ideological gibberish. I'm sorry, but, like, what does that even. What does it mean to vote like, North Korea? Do they even vote in North Korea? Like, what is he talking about? This is ideological gibberish meant to justify an ideological war on American universities? Look, is there frustration with the academy?

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, I feel that I would love, as somebody who believes in the relationship between big ideas and policies and politics, I actually believe that academia and American universities could be doing much better when it comes to developing ideas that benefit people. I actually think this is worse on the left. And what I mean by that is the right, because they felt that there was a powerful liberal bias in universities, built this extraordinarily rich constellation of think tanks over the last 50 years that aren't just worrying about things like the optimal healthcare subsidy from a conservative perspective. They're worried about things like what is the nature of liberty?

[Tim Miller]

Also totally random stuff like, you know, whether there's. We're producing enough sperm in our. In our young men.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, obviously their priorities are not exact. Their priorities are not exactly my priorities. Right. But my point is they're thinking about everything from the biggest of the big questions to very specific policy things. And that's how you get stuff like Project 2025, a very thoroughly thought through plan, which I hate, but which is connecting their first principles as they see them to their political agenda. Meanwhile, on the left, whether we're talking about the think tank world or whether we're talking about universities, there's think tanks that I think are tending to focus on things that are much more narrow, specific, and rather technical policy questions. There's universities that are doing a lot of theories about theories that can get frustratingly abstract. So I get all of that. That doesn't mean that it's okay for the government to go to war with the university because they don't like their politics or for the government to be watching the voting. Why is the Vice President of the United States commenting on the voting habits of anybody, any student or faculty member, in the context of whether federal funding should be going to help prevent veteran suicide in a research project at the medical school there? Why is that his problem?

[Tim Miller]

Hey, guys, it's Tim and Sarah. We're here with my frenemy, John Lovett from Love it or Leave It.

[Pete Buttigieg]

We're bringing you guys all a special crossover collab with the Bulwark and Crooked Media, the Never Trump Rhinos. Meet the Self Important Podcast Bros. You.

[Tim Miller]

Are definitely the Fucking self important one. June is Pride Month and we're gonna be live in D.C. on June 6 for World Pride for a very special live show FundRaiser featuring the three of us plus some gay special guests.

[Pete Buttigieg]

This one's a little different. Proceeds from tickets will be donated to support Andre Romero, the makeup artist who the Trump administration wrongly disappeared to El Salvador and who is currently being held in Sakat. Crooked and the Bulwark will be donating the proceeds from this fundraiser to the Immigrant Defenders Law Center. Tickets on sale [e-mail] events. These are going fast, so get yours before they're gone. Go to crooked.com events and we will see you all on June 6th.

[Tim Miller]

We're about to get to the Democrats next, but we've gone through the fact that we're disappearing people to a El Salvador gulag, that we're going after universities because of their politics, banning foreign students for coming to universities for reasons. Just a terrific tax and spending bill that makes no sense. And I've listened to all your podcasts podcast recently and you give compelling reactions to all those things on the merits. Like what has pissed you off the most? Like what has gotten Pete's blood pressure up the most out of the last four months.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Where do we begin? I mean part of what is most infuriating is the, the extent of the insult to the American people. It's not just policies that are going to hurt people. It's insulting people's intelligence. It's insulting the working voter who knows damn well that if you make these changes to Medicaid, millions of deserving people are going to lose their health care coverage. It's the insult to the American taxpayer with the idea that we're all supposed to pay hundreds or tens of millions of dollars to upgrade a jumbo jet handed over by a foreign government for the President to use that probably won't even be ready until his last year and then would immediately go to his president library. There's a brazenness to this that that is insulting and some of it's insulting by design. Like to get us just so whipped up that, that we're kind of losing our minds and we can't be clear headed about a strategy to, to defeat it. But something about just how little he must think of the American people and in particular the supporters who he goes to for money and for votes all the time. He just doesn't deserve them. He doesn't deserve the loyalty of any of the people who trusted him with their vote. And I think that's the most hurtful Thing, Yeah, policies are bad, conduct is bad, but it's that bad faith that is the worst thing of all. And I think that's one of the reasons why so many people who are conservatives are as disturbed by him as the rest of us. It's just that those of them who are in Congress can't seem to bring themselves to say anything because they're afraid.

[Tim Miller]

Why do you think those people are stuck with them? We're going to get esoteric now because I was listening to in one of your interviews recently, you said these movements you're talking about, MAGA doesn't come up in a country where things are going fine. And that sounds nice, that sounds right, that maybe the folks that have turned to him, turned to him because they went through real struggles and they're just grasping around for any solution, even somebody that doesn't give a fuck about them. But then the more I think about it, I'm like, is that actually true? Because over the last half century, we've done better than Western Europe. They don't have a Trump.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Growth wise, we have. But, like, look at the inequality, right? Like, anytime you see this level of inequality, like, usually that's the beginning of the end for a republic if it happens in a Democratic country. And the truth is, while I think I would like to think that my party has better policies to deal with inequality and is more concerned about it, the reality is it has gotten worse on the watch of Republican and Democratic administrations in a way that I think motivates, maybe not justifies, but motivates an attitude that says, like, burn the house down. Like, there's this cynicism right now. There's part of it that I think deserves to be taken seriously. There's another part of it that is just the way our relationship to reality and information has changed. Right? The fact that we're not getting information mostly from sources that consult both sides and talk about what they have to say and subject everything they print or repeat to editorial standards. Right. We're just in that world as much. I think that's really made a big difference. You put those things together and it's a recipe for kind of cynicism. But it's one thing to get mad and say, all right, let's burn the house down. It's another to actually be around when that happens. And I think what we're seeing is a lot of people getting hurt by it. They'll be hurt by it more. Although, you know, there's been a show of political savvy by the Republicans Setting some of these bombs to go off in 2029, which means they know that that policy is going to hurt a lot of people and they don't want politically it to happen before the election. Right. This is the kind of thing that I think translates that general frustration into a terrible consequence.

[Tim Miller]

I don't necessarily think that's wrong, but here's what's unsatisfying about it, right? Is that if you look at the last, there's a New York Times survey. If you look at the last three elections, in a trend, only the counties with the smallest proportion of college grants have turned more Democrat. It's mostly suburban counties where I grew up, suburban Denver, suburban Atlanta, that have moved Democrat each of the last three elections in two thirds of the least educated counties. It's been the Republicans that steadily grew their vote share in each of the last three elections. And so if you're saying that the answer is that, well, it's just been this widening inequality gap that has turned these folks to Trump, the Republicans aren't even really offering any solution to that. Right. So why. So there's got to be something else. There's got to be something cultural. It can't just be money.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Oh, of course not. But this is what they do. Right. So I agree on the cultural part, but just to close the loop on the money part, one thing they're very good at is taking a problem, seeing it get worse and using it. Right. The more inequality there is, the better for somebody like Trump. Just like, you know, the worse things are at the border, the better for somebody like Trump politically. Right. So we've seen that pattern again and again. But I agree on the culture part, too. Look, I mean, there's, you know, Democrats have created this impression, I think partly because of the way we feel and talk about Trump, have created this impression that that translates into the way we feel and talk about people who supported him. And that's the thing that I think really is a cultural struggle in our party. There's this sense of condescension. I mean, if I hear one more time like a well off liberal doctor or lawyer saying, you know, that quote, unquote, these folks are voting against their economic interests, I just wonder whether they've ever contemplated the fact that somebody could turn around and say, so are you. There's a condescension that is imputed to Democrats that I think we really need to deal with. So much of politics is not just how you make people feel, how you make people feel about themselves. And so much of what they think of you comes down to what they think you think of them. And largely because of our very justified horror at the abuses of Donald Trump as a candidate and as a president, we've said and done things that make voters feel like we're talking about them when we're talking about him.

[Tim Miller]

This is a conundrum. It is an easy thing to say, right, that Democrats should not be condescending when talking about folks that voted for Trump. And I get that. It's like the right thing to do in the sense of, like, if you're in fourth grade, that's what your teacher would tell you. Like, you have to be nice to the student, to your fellow classmates. That made a really dumb decision. And we tried to teach our kids that. And yet they've nominated the Republicans one of the stupidest, most cruel, most totally morally indefensible Americans for president three straight times. Even after he's committed obvious crimes, even after he's insulted people and he's so mean, it's like he's condescending and mean to people. The way he talks about Baltimore or whatever, the media. You just name the list of people that he talks about, and he just makes stupid nicknames up about people. So the Democrats have to be nice to the people that elected, like, the stupid, cruel Biff from Back to the Future, and they don't have to do the same.

[Pete Buttigieg]

The way I'd put it is that we need to call out to what's best in people, because we already. The lane for calling out to what's worst in people is already taken. First of all, it's not for us. And secondly, we're never going to be as good at it as he is, right? So even the insulting and cruelty on his side is done in a way that I think a lot of people feel like, well, they can sort of get in on it, you know, which is also a dynamic that takes me back to fourth grade or maybe seventh grade, that, you know, one way to not be the object of. Of insults is to side with whoever's throwing the insults around. I mean, this is really classic schoolyard stuff, right, that we're being thrown back into.

[Tim Miller]

Wouldn't it have been satisfying, though, for somebody just to punch the fucking bully in the face in fourth grade? Like, isn't that after a while, after many years? That's one thing. If they're a mean on the playground for like, one day. But then it's third grade, they're mean. Fourth grade, they're mean. Fifth grade, they're mean. Sixth Grade, they're mean. Seventh grade, they're mean. Eighth grade, they get elected class president. Ninth grade, don't you want somebody to clock him in the face?

[Pete Buttigieg]

So, look, bullies are powerful temporarily, but rarely durable, right? Like, yeah, sooner or later, that catches up to them. And I think we will see that, like, this relationship that Trump has built with his people is not the kind of thing that builds a lasting political movement. I think part of another thing my side needs to be thinking about is when he exits the political scene, which one way or the other is going to happen, he will not be active in American politics 15 years from now.

[Tim Miller]

Fingers crossed, baby. Fingers crossed.

[Pete Buttigieg]

What would we want to see? And then, like, figure out how to bring that a little closer into the near future.

[Tim Miller]

Barron is going to be the main figure 15 years from now. You know, you gotta. He'll be. You were 29 when you won the mayor's race, right? How old will baron be in 15 years? 34. Watch out. All right, I mentioned Biff from Back to the Future. We're gonna play Back to the Future game. Was that a. Was that a cultural touchstone for you as a child, as an elder millennial?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Not really.

[Tim Miller]

Not really. Back to the Future.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Okay, I just missed that one.

[Tim Miller]

We won't spend too much time on it then. And there's a DeLorean in the movie. Michael J. Fox gets in a DeLorean. It's a car. He gets to go back in time. You use the DeLorean to go back in time. So I'm giving you a DeLorean. And we are going to go back to right after Biden gets the nomination in 2020. So you just endorsed him? He hasn't picked Vice President Harris yet. The world is our oyster. We're in the middle of COVID And you're Pete from today, and you get to talk to Pete from back then, or maybe Biden from back then, and you get to give them some advice. Give them some advice that would maybe prevent us from having this current present. What do you think you all should have done differently?

[Pete Buttigieg]

One, for the love of God, figure out a way to get the schools open sooner. We got very knee jerk about this. And the costs were not just politically, but in a profound way. I think for the generation, the costs were profound. And I think anybody who was involved, who was, by the way, obviously doing their best to deal with the crisis that kill million Americans, but I think most people involved would like to be able to have found a way to safely get more schools open more quickly.

[Tim Miller]

That was a great first answer. I had no idea where you. I mean, there's so many ways you could have gone with that. But that is, that is a good. That's a good one. I didn't expect you to say that.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Obviously, pay more attention to the border. That's real. And that's going to be something that you can't just like, take your time to deal with. These are all things, by the way, that it's super, you know, policy wise and politically. We have the benefit of hindsight to point to a lot of this. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Three, even though you spent your entire political lifetime believing that the economy and jobs are the same thing, and if you have lots of jobs, it's a good economy, and if you have a problem with jobs, it's a bad economy. Remember that prices is just as big a part of the economy. It just hasn't come up much in the last 40 years. Right.

[Tim Miller]

What would you have done differently on prices then? What could you have done differently?

[Pete Buttigieg]

No country was able to save their economy from COVID without getting into some inflation, some serious and painful inflation. But I do think that there were a lot of moments where people kind of waved it away in the first year or two, even just like the conversation about it, the focus. It is true that we had no choice but to bring back the economy by any means necessary. I mean, we forget how grave the threat of a depression was in 2020 or 2021. I mean, when I came in, I spent a big part of my time as secretary dealing with getting airlines to treat their passengers better. You could almost forget that the entire first year, our biggest focus was making sure airlines didn't go out of business. And that's just to use the airline sector as an example. Right. So again, by definition, you set up this exercise. It's easy to say now, yeah, sure. But like, since it is, those are the things I'd be whispering into my 2020 year if I had the chance.

[Tim Miller]

So not do less with BBB or not the inflation or whatever, what became the Inflation Reduction Act.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Look, if you had to choose between. If you had to choose between doing too little and doing too much, doing too much was the better answer. And so I don't think we should have built fewer roads or bridges.

[Tim Miller]

Let's do some more. Maybe controversial political ones. Should Biden have been encouraged to pick an attorney general that would have more aggressively gone after Trump earlier, specifically over the insurrection? I don't know if Stormy Daniels, some of this other stuff, but specifically about January 6th.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to play out the counterfactual. Right. It's like one of these Chinese finger traps where the harder you pull, the more you get stuck. And there was a sense that the more aggressive the administration was, the more he would seem to be justified in saying that it was all political. Now, you got to weigh that against the fact that he was going to say that no matter what. But also there was an important principle at play here. Right. Which I think the President really believed in and which I believe in, which is that an administration like a political body, like a White House, should have as little to do as possible with anything to do with prosecutions. That's the principle that he followed, arguably to a fault. But I get the principle and it still matters.

[Tim Miller]

Should somebody have primaried President Biden or thrown their body in front of the tracks of the reelect?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, look, somebody did and he didn't get very far. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Well, Dean Phelps tried to recruit other people. Dean's defense, I was pretty harsh on Dean. So look, this is where we're all reflecting and I had him back on and I said this to him. I was like, I don't know if the way that he ran was really the right way. And I still have some nitpicks about it. But like in his defense, he went and tried to recruit other people that were more famous and more better suited than Dean Phillips and none of them wanted to do it. And in retrospect, maybe, should folks have been more interested in those meetings or should something else have happened? I don't know.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, look, again, easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. Sure, right, of course, easy to say. And we can run all the different scenarios that could have happened.

[Tim Miller]

Well, here's the thing, Pete, like, I hear you, sure, it's easy to say. The benefit of hindsight. These are kind of important questions because it's like, how do we avoid this in the future? Right. And how do Democrats be more clear eyed about not losing to populist demagogues in the future? And I listen to those answers and you go back and you say, well, we get kids in school earlier. That's smart. That would have been better. But on the edges, you do more stuff on immigration and prices. Biden still runs, Trump is still the president right now. And I just gave you a DeLorean. You get to go back in time and try to save us from Donald Trump 2.0.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, but you sent me to where.

[Tim Miller]

Do you want to go? You can put in the dots. You can put in a different date. Where do you go to? How do you.

[Pete Buttigieg]

In 2020, I literally did run in a primary against Joe Biden and he beat me.

[Tim Miller]

Sure. But how do you. But okay, so this is inevitable. The course of history is inevitable. You know, there's no contingent thing we could have done to stop it.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I'm not so sure that if Covid had been handled a little differently and again, this is easy to say now and being on the side of vaccines and science was the right thing to do, but if we had seen some of those other knock on effects related to the COVID response and understood how the border was going to play out and understood in advance with a crystal ball how to talk about and work on prices, I'm not so sure that things would have been the exact same in terms of an election outcome that's swung by, you know, at the end of the day, relatively small number of votes in a small number of counties in a small number of states.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, maybe this takes us to the Andrew Schultz podcast, which I listened to all three hours of stuff. I don't get three hours with you, unfortunately. I'm going to take it up with your team, but maybe we'll do one hour a month or something. But it was really interesting and I want to talk about those guys in a second, but one of the specific things they were asking you was about what's the Democrats version of Build the Wall? And I just kind of want to add onto that, which is listening to this now. I don't know. Trump, for all of his flaws, is not limited by having ceilings on his imagination. I mean, the dude instigated a riot at the Capitol, got indicted four times, put a picture of his mugshot on a T shirt and got elected president twice when his only experience was a reality show host. So he dreams, big dreams. Say what you want about him. I sometimes feel like the Democrats when I'm listening to interviews like this, where what should the Democrats do differently? It's very incremental dreams, little things we could have done on the edge, nibbling around the edges and is that an issue? Don't you think that Democrats could maybe have a little bit more imagination about things they could do?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yes. Look, especially at this moment we're in and I think we see the big developments mostly in terms of the fear and the downside, whether we're talking about the political space and the rise of Trump or stuff like climate, which is a massive problem, which we see mostly in terms of the harm or AI, which we're Talking about mostly in terms of something to be afraid of, and there's plenty to be afraid of there. But I think that when we're confronted with that level of challenge, it requires an enormous level of imagination. The same way that colossal, horrific challenges like the Great Depression and World War II led to the set of policies and institutions that were built that we seem to still be clinging to to try to save from destruction, when actually they're already almost gone, and they will pretty much completely be gone by the time this administration is done with it. Right. So what would we be doing? Not just to patch up something that we inherited from three generations ago, but to start over, knowing that everything is different now in terms of our own political landscape, in terms of what's happening in the climate, and importantly, potentially in terms of the economy. I mean, you look at AI and again, lots to be really troubled by. But we can't just run the same playbook that that we ran in, let's say, the 90s, to try to deal with what technology and trade did to manufacturing in places like Northern Indiana, where I come from. We could be offering a future where there's a dramatically shorter work week and more money in your pocket at the same time. That's a thing that could actually happen if and only if we have the right set of policies. And unlike building a wall, that's something we'd actually get done. So we do need to dream bigger and talk boldly about it, and not just in terms of what we're trying to stop, which is all Democrats can think about right now because of the horror show that is Washington, but what we're actually trying to accelerate and deliver and build.

[Tim Miller]

I think there's something here, because this is what I'm interested in, your take on this. So I'm listening to this podcast. These guys and some of the listeners haven't heard. I can't imagine all of my listeners listen to all three hours of the Flagrant podcast with Andrew Schultz, but I'll just sum it up. These guys, man, I don't even understand why they voted for Trump at the end, really. Over the course of the conversation, they were open to almost all of the policy items that you laid out. And it felt like there was this just huge culture. This is back to the cultural gap. There's some cultural gap, and I just don't know how to bridge it. And you spend all that time with them wondering what you think about it.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Totally. And it's true, not just for them, but for so many people, especially young men that they're kind of a cultural stand in for. It was true with a lot of students I've been spending time with. I was at the University of Chicago. I was teaching there one day a week this spring. I made a point of spending time with college Republicans. And you would see a lot of people who voted this way who are actually, they're not voting for Trump because they interned at the Heritage Foundation. They're not even conservative. They were for reasons we've talked about a little bit. Trump may have spoken to these guys, but they are not, not committed Republican voters. It will be habit forming if we don't earn their support back. And it happens two or three times in a row. But when I'm talking to these guys, they went that way last time. They could totally go a different way next time because policy wise, like most Americans, they agree with us most of the time on most of the big issues.

[Tim Miller]

What was it like off and you talked to him for three hours. You probably didn't have much time off. Podcast.

[Pete Buttigieg]

No, it's the same thing. I mean, it was the same thing. You know, we came in. Yeah. We're hanging around, I don't know, maybe a half hour before we settled in. It was the same thing as when the podcast was rolling. Bullshitting and talking about stuff and swapping stories and. And I mean, part of what I really enjoyed about that experience was that it didn't feel like being on a show.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Pete Buttigieg]

But part of what's important about it, like legitimately important about formats like that or Rogan, these, these three hour formats, is it is literally impossible as a matter of physical and psychological stamina to stay on Talking Points for three hours. And so if you're even trying, like, that'll show pretty quick. Quick. Which is probably why not everybody wants to do it. But I think the kinds of leaders who aren't trapped in Talking Points and don't mind just saying what they think about stuff, even if you say something wrong every now and then, are more the people who are going to thrive in that environment for sure.

[Tim Miller]

And I should just say as much as I wanted. I would want to hang out with you for three hours, Pete, and bring the kids in and let Chasta come in and just bullshit about drag race or whatever's happening in your life right now. Cleaning up after the kids. I do a daily pod, so Jason can't really turn around three hours at a time. So it's more on me than on you.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I don't think there's a ton of editing. I mean, the other mom that really demonstrated to me how truly different this format is is when Andrew Schultz just like got up in the middle of the interview to go to the bathroom and we just continued the conversation with the other guys who were there.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, is that what was happening? I heard, because I was listening, not watching. I heard some, like, scuttle, but I couldn't tell what was going on. No, he just laughed.

[Pete Buttigieg]

He just got up. I think he had to go to the bathroom and then he came back in a couple minutes. We kept talking the whole time. Right. I mean, that nothing could better demonstrate the fact that this was literally has more in common with sitting around with friends over a beer than it does with going on cnn.

[Tim Miller]

Do you feel like there's a puzzle? To me, it's just such a tough nut to crack, though, because I've been spending a lot of time thinking about this. One of my friends is friends with Theo Vaughn, so I've got to hang out with him just a little bit. He's similar to one of these shows and again, similar to Schultz. It's like this is a totally different animal than Ben Shapiro or something or Charlie Kirk. Some like somebody with a coherent right wing ideological vision who would be Republican if it was JD Vance or Nikki Haley or whatever, they would contort themselves to it. That's not what these guys are. But it's like, okay, so if the policies are aligned, what is it? Do the Democrats need to just find somebody who is more culturally suited to them to go hang out? I mean, that's part of it. I don't know. Do you have a theory? How do you crack the nut? What is it?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I mean, that's a classic dynamic, right? The message and then the messenger. And it turns out the tone and the messenger matter a lot. And even if the message is the exact same in terms of politics, two different people will take it to very different places and get, you know, cover a different distance, depending who those two people are. So I think part of it's that I do think part of it is, you know, how this stuff kind of flows out in the information ecosystem. I'm growing obsessed with this question of how much the attention something gets is organic. By which I mean, like, you say the right thing in just the right way and it just catches fire. And how much of it has to do with money being spent to amplify certain clips from certain people in certain getting to certain viewers. Both of those things are going on. Strategists on my side shouldn't be naive about that part, like the paid part.

[Tim Miller]

What'd you make about that, though? There was that memo going around, we're sending 20 million bucks on reaching men like they're kind of animals in a zoo. I can do a fast thing. What was up with that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Look, everybody's scratching around the same problem. They're asking the right questions. I'm sure some of the answers are and projects people come up with will be good. Some of them will be half assed. But I think the other important thing to remember is we have a way of always fighting the last war and dealing the same way that in 2017 we're like, oh, we should be paying more attention to Twitter. I hope we can do a little more of skating to where the puck is going.

[Tim Miller]

I just want to pull it up so I get it exactly right. The prospectus for a $20 million effort was codenamed Sam Speaking with American A Strategic Plan. This is fucking ridiculous. What is that? What are we doing?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, there's nothing wrong with a strategic plan for speaking to American men, but obviously there's something there's some questions about.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe just speaking would not be the strategic plan. I don't know.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Just like my approach has been to like go there again. We're always fighting the last war, right? I think what we really need to figure out is in 26, in 28 and beyond, what are the things that are really going to shape what it's like to be an American. And some of that is obviously what's going on in our politics. And a lot of that is what's about to happen with technology. And I think even now we are underreacting because this AI stuff, it's not something most people will experience as a tech issue. It's something they'll experience as a radical change in what it's like to get or do a job. And a lot of things that I thought would happen in the 2050s are looking like they might happen before the 2020s are over. And that's got to be factored into all the stuff we're thinking about that we learned the hard way in 2024.

[Tim Miller]

I want to ask about AI next, but I just have one more question about the bros, because again, it's a puzzle I'm trying to crack. I think that they're negative, polarized against the progressives in their life, that they don't like, that annoy them, that are rugging their finger at them, and maybe just kind of talking to them about policy actually wasn't work. Maybe the right thing to do is negatively polarize them against Trump and make them realize that the MAGA folks aren't actually looking out for the best interest. They want to ban porn. They're too stupid to address AI. I don't know. Whatever we can think about different negative polarization efforts are. Isn't that easier, though, than being positive?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Of course we should be talking about how, yeah, if Speaker Johnson got his way, it wouldn't be possible, not just for gay people to get married, but for straight people to get divorced, let alone, like, birth control, or how he would want to regulate porn or whatever most people would have a problem with. But whether talking about that or cuts to Medicaid or cuts to veterans or any of the other wildly unpopular stuff they're doing, no question we should be all over it, and I will be. But if you're looking at things we haven't done enough of as a party or as a movement, negativity with regard to Donald Trump is not one of the areas I would say is a big deficiency.

[Tim Miller]

Not topless. On deficiency. Oh, wait, I lied. I had one more thing about Andrew Schultz. Bernie also went on the show. He was asked this by Andrew, could we not also say, ostensibly, there hasn't been a fair primary for the Democrats since 2008. Are they not also a threat to democracy? Bernie replied, yes, fair enough. I'm not going to argue that point, and that's why I'm an independent. That's insane, isn't it? Isn't that crazy that that was his answer?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, Bernie being Bernie. Right. I mean, he says a lot of things that most Democrats would agree with, but he's not a Democrat and has a very different way of thinking and talking about. About the party.

[Tim Miller]

You have had Fair primaries since 2008. 2016 was a fair primary. 2020 was a fair primary.

[Pete Buttigieg]

These were free and fair votes. Right. I would argue it would have been a little fairer to me if they'd gone ahead and counted the Iowa caucus results more quickly and more accurately. But I don't feel like I got, you know, I don't feel like some. Somebody was like, nefariously rigging it to prevent me from.

[Tim Miller]

It was just, everybody's got a beef with the dnc.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I'm just saying I'm not one to. I'm. I'm not going to be somebody who says, like, everything was perfectly fine with that process.

[Tim Miller]

I was on Morning Joe the next morning calling you a winner. All right, I was looking out for you. But I'm also not a Democrat. So you know, maybe that was some clear eyed ability there. All right, back to the AI thing. She said something interesting. I don't want to lose the threat. So what I'm worried about is information, people being able to figure out what's true and what's not. And what I'm also worried about is loneliness and like young people with ChatGPT becoming their best friend and not actually getting out in the world meeting humans. And what I'm excited about is some of the stuff you talked about, medical research and who knows what potential options are. So talk about what your worries are and how you react to that.

[Pete Buttigieg]

So I share the things you just said in terms of both the worries and the upsides. But I would say the biggest thing that I think could be ultimately the most consequential upside or the most consequential harm is what happens when machines can do so much more, including lots and lots of white collar work, so that all that really matters is who owns the machines. And by machines I really mean it's the intellectual property as well as the server farms and all of that. Because one of two things will happen. Either we have even more enormous concentration of wealth and therefore power into an even smaller set of hands. I mean, if you think social media did a lot to drive wealth into a tiny number of pockets, think about what happens when a handful of people literally own technology that can do most things that workers now do. Right? So that's a pretty terrifying scenario where we all, no matter what's going on with our campaigns and elections, wind up being just like the playthings of these oligarchs. Or another thing that could also absolutely happen is we figure out a way to deal more of the American people into the enormous value that's being created here. In a way that means that for most Americans this means more economic security. It means less work, more money in your pocket. And then we work on the other big issue, which is what do you do with your time, which Americans have really struggled on since World War II. We've gotten five times more productive. Just in pure terms, you could work one day a week now and generate as much economic value as it took all week then. And yet we don't work fewer hours. Right? We took all of that and used it to have a higher standard of living and just work more. But what if we actually had more time to do things that actually conservatives do a good job of talking about, you know, focusing on family and neighborhood and faith, community, whatever matters in your life. Right? We could set ourselves up for that. Or we could screw it up and get into a really dark place.

[Tim Miller]

I know which side of the bed I'm on, but you're the politician. You have more optimism. Your job is to have the optimism. I don't know. That was a compelling answer. And I was more drawn to the former as a likely outcome, unfortunately.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, I mean, that's up to us, right? I mean, these are choices that societies make, and we're technically a democratic society. So the choice is literally up to all of us. Us, at least in theory.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we're going to do rapid fire on a couple quick topics and I'll let you go this one. There's a narrow corner of the Internet in my world, neoliberal, never trumper, anti red tape world, that overlaps with something that you oversaw as Secretary of Transportation. This is the Jones act. It's a U.S. law that mandates that cargo transported between U.S. ports must be shipped on vessels that are U.S. built, U.S. owned, U.S. flagged and crewed by a majority of U.S. citizens. Yay, USA. Wave the flag. The problem with that is, like, that makes things a lot more expensive for everybody. And it's a 1920s law and it's 2020. What do you. What do you think of the Jones Act?

[Pete Buttigieg]

So the Jones act exists to support that US Industry, that we have more ships crewed by Americans doing shipping. Otherwise we probably would have nearly zero like US Flag vessels. So it's important. Is it a roundabout and complex way to achieve that policy? Yes, it is. Is. Is it worth it? I think it is. But let me also say that we could be doing so much more to build up American shipping and shipbuilding. One of the handful of things that I would actually say is the right. At least the right body language. I don't know if they can pull it off, but the right theoretical idea is what this administration is saying about shipbuilding. We did some of it. When I was at dot, I was constantly talking to the Secretary of Navy about how we could beef up a U.S. shipping industry. We purchased training vessels for the U.S. department of Transportation that were built in the Philly shipyar. That helps create a lot of work and a lot of shipbuilding capacity in the Philly shipyard. But it takes too long and costs too much to build ships in the US Compared to Asia, and we got to get better at that. So we should have a much more robust merchant marine, commercial shipping sector and US Flag fleet, in addition to the military side. That is clear and I think inarguable. The Jones act is a complicated way that we support that, but we could be doing a lot more and then we might be less reliant on.

[Tim Miller]

All right, so let's just build more ships. Let's do a CHIPS act. But a ship sat.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I love a ships act.

[Tim Miller]

And then we can get rid of the Jones Act, a ships act, and then we can meet us in the middle. This is how things used to work where two sides would get together, we'd meet in the middle.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, where's the smoke filled room?

[Tim Miller]

Okay, we're open to it. All right. Do you have a pet policy? I brought up the Jones Act. Do you have a random little niche pet policy, having been in the transportation.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, digital id.

[Tim Miller]

Tell us about it.

[Pete Buttigieg]

One of the basic jobs of government is to establish that you are who you say you are. Authentication. Right. We do it in the most jumbled, screwed up, antiquated and insecure set of ways. We have paper birth certificates in like drawers and county health offices to establish who we are. And then in our day to day, we use driver's licenses that are different in every state and you're supposed to have one whether you drive or not. And then online, the ultimate way, the kind of master password for everything is your Social Security number. But that means if somebody knows your Social Security number, which is the nearest thing we have to an ID number number as a citizen, they can get to just about everything and you're screwed. This is insane. And nobody would have come up with this on purpose on a clean sheet. There are a lot of other countries that do better. Ukraine, actually. What you can do with like a QR code in a secure way with digital id makes what we have in the US an embarrassment. A lot of the best countries on this are actually Eastern Europe. Estonia, Latvia, they've been doing it. But India, they're rolling out stuff and they got a billion people.

[Tim Miller]

People.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, The Estonians are like. That's like. I feel like they're visiting us from the future when I talk to the Estonian data people. So I know it sounds like a, like a nerdy niche thing. I actually think a lot of things that have intense political and economic, economic consequence from the ability to access Medicaid and food benefits in a safe, fraud free way to like voting and election security. Those are all implicated in the. The need for us to improve our screwed up, upside down system and authentication.

[Tim Miller]

I love that one. Okay, that wasn't that rapid though. We're going real rapid on the gay stuff. Then we're out of here. We have a gay rapid fire section. Then we're out. I received an email this morning from a trans person that's really concerned and upset about the all gender transition care that's being cut from Medicaid as part of this new bill. This stuff is really touchy. I think Democrats are afraid to kind of talk about it now for good reason maybe politically, because what you saw happen to Common Love. I wonder if you have any thoughts on. On that part of the Medicaid cuts.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Healthcare is healthcare and you should be able to get healthcare. And if you and your doctor agree that you need a service, then you should be able to get it. And attacking that as part of this legislation is just one more example of politicians stepping on somebody's face in order to try to get ahead politically.

[Tim Miller]

Pride is pride back. I feel like we had a moment where we were getting. It was getting a little. It was getting a little stale. You know, you had the Lockheed Martin Pride flag going through town.

[Pete Buttigieg]

It's getting a little corporate.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, a little corporate. But now that they're going after DEI and there's a little bit of fear that the Trump administration will go after you, I kind of feel like pride's gonna be back this year. I don't know. What do you think?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, maybe we'll have a little more of that political edge to it. I mean, it started out as a protest, Right.

[Tim Miller]

So we'll see the beard have, I don't know, Chastain, other gays on the Internet. I mean, how have the gays been responding to the beard?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, so it's basically Chastain and the Internet gaze seem to be strongly probably in our household. The other strong vote in the other direction is Penelope, who says it's too. Our daughter, who says it's too scratchy when I kiss her at bedtime. Our son has yet to weigh in, interestingly. So there's a swing vote here around the house. And my mother has been very judiciously silent, which makes me think she's on Team no Beard. But we'll see.

[Tim Miller]

That sounds like my relationship with my mother. All right, so let's just end on the parenting. I don't know if you've been able to hear, unlike Andrew Schultz, I didn't get up to pee, but I have. The seven year old I think has been playing the drum like squeezing a loud chicken. There's some other unidentified noises right out the door. I'm working from home. I assume you've got. Are they running around over there? What's it like?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, they're at school, but they definitely contribute Sound effects.

[Tim Miller]

The rest of the world, they're still in school. May 27th. That's nice. We're out. It's over now it's summer vacation. It's brutal.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Oh, yeah, look, we still have the snow tires on around here. So summer comes a little bit late to Northern Michigan.

[Tim Miller]

What has been the most just delightful part of. I guess we're coming up on year four. Four for the kids.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, we're coming up on four. They keep talking about it, although Gus, for some reason keeps talking about being five. He's like, well, my birthday. And then after birthday, it'll be five. I think the most delightful part is, like, how, how. Like they're. Well, one thing I'm enjoying is that they're starting to make sense, but not completely. Like, they can tell stories, but you have to, like, sift through the story to try to figure out what's at the bottom of it. Yeah, like. Like Gus was asked, talking about leprechauns, he's like, do you know what a leprechaun is? I was like, yeah. And then he told me what a leprechaun is. It's like, it plays a trick and it takes something and then it runs so fast and then the gingerbread man catches it and it turns into a zombie. And I'm trying to, like, derive, like, what. What the backstory was to why I.

[Tim Miller]

Got to the zombie.

[Pete Buttigieg]

So there's just all this randomness. But the other thing is that, like, they're just. They're at this age, which can be like a tough age, as, you know, like, they're just like. They don't quite listen. They run around like, you're always worried they're going to get hurt. But everything is amazing. Like, everything can be wonderful. They can teach us, like, such utter joy in, like, I don't know, blowing bubbles or seeing an excavator. And I try to get more in touch with that as a grown up and remember that, like, we should. Wasn't it GK Chesterton said we should imitate the wonder of small children? Like, there's nothing like having small children around to help you do that.

[Tim Miller]

It's so delightful. Mine right now is on words. She's. Since she's seven, she's. We're reading, we're learning to words and synonyms. Makes my. It's a brain teaser for me. Like last night we were doing. She was like, the word season. Season. She's like, we season the food. But also it's a season of a TV show and spring and Summer is a season. And how do those things relate together? And do you spell them the same? It's just delightful.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I just had my first one of those. We were doing right and right. And Gus put it together that the word we use for the right side is the same as the word we use for correct. And I didn't have a great answer for him on how to keep that straight.

[Tim Miller]

I know it's tough. We need a. Well, you should be better at that than me. I mean, you do seven languages. Can you not do language origins with him?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Just trying to stay on top of English right now.

[Tim Miller]

All right, that's Pete Buttigieg. Appreciate so much the time, man. Same here. Let's keep checking in and we'll be seeing you soon.

[Pete Buttigieg]

All right, Sounds good. Great seeing you. Take care.

[Tim Miller]

All right. Thanks so much to Pete Buttigieg. That was a delight. Maybe three hours in the future, we'll see how it goes. Everybody else has got a double header tomorrow. I will be doing it from Chicago where we've got a live show with Adam Kinzinger tomorrow night. So you'll get Adam Kinzinger on the pod on Thursday. And I think there's still a couple tickets left for Nashville on Thursday. So if you, you know, I don't know, have a hankering, you have something happen in your life, you're like, I just. I just need 24 hours with Tim in Nashville. You can just pop on a plane. I think you better get that ticket now. So thanks again to Pete. We'll see where we're back here tomorrow. Tomorrow. Peace.

[Unknown]

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[Pete Buttigieg]

If.

[Unknown]

I could go just like that I'll be taking the back Taking the.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.