The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1052 – George Packer & Melanie Stansbury on JD Vance, Political Shifts, and Government Accountability

Release Date: May 28, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a two-part discussion with notable guests: George Packer, a staff writer at The Atlantic, and Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury from New Mexico. The conversation delves into the political trajectory of JD Vance, the implications of the Republican Party's recent budget proposals, and the challenges facing liberal democracy in the current climate.

Segment 1: George Packer on JD Vance and Political Transformation

JD Vance: From "Hillbilly Elegy" to MAGA Figure

George Packer begins the conversation by analyzing JD Vance's transformation from the author of Hillbilly Elegy to a prominent figure within the MAGA movement. Packer draws parallels between Vance's journey and literary protagonists like Tom Ripley from The Talented Mr. Ripley, highlighting Vance's rapid and complex evolution in the public eye.

George Packer [03:20]: "JD Vance has transformed himself before the country's eyes twice... like heir apparent to Trump. It’s an incredible journey, an unbelievably fast and zigzaggy rollercoaster."

Tim Miller expresses personal disdain for Vance, describing him as "the least appealing person in all of public life."

Tim Miller [16:22]: "I find JD Vance to be the least appealing person in all of public life. I think he's a sociopath, and I think he's mean. He's very condescending."

Ideological Shifts and Influences

Packer discusses the ideological shifts that have propelled Vance into a MAGA role, attributing it to influences from figures like David Frum, Peter Thiel, and Tucker Carlson. He suggests that Vance has mirrored these mentors to the point where their rhetoric has become his identity.

George Packer [10:00]: "He imitated the way of speaking he heard from David Frum, Peter Thiel, Tucker Carlson, and it has become him. That’s who he is."

Vance's Impact on Liberal Democracy

The discussion turns to Vance's role in undermining liberal democratic values, with Packer criticizing his aggressive stance on issues like immigration and his antagonistic approach towards figures like Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

George Packer [21:58]: "He justifies every policy, every lie, every cruelty, including cruelty to immigrants... it's all in the name of his people, the working class."

The Future of Vance's Political Career

Packer raises concerns about whether Vance's alignment with Trump will sustain his political career or lead to his downfall as public sentiment shifts.

George Packer [05:21]: "The big question of the future is whether he will inherit the crown or whether the crown itself will be so tarnished... we don’t know."

Segment 2: Melanie Stansbury on Government Efficiency, The DOGE Subcommittee, and Democratic Strategy

Introduction to Melanie Stansbury

Tim Miller introduces Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury, highlighting her background as a science teacher and water resources manager. Stansbury shares her unexpected journey into politics following the 2016 election of Donald Trump, emphasizing her commitment to serving New Mexico's 1st congressional district.

Melanie Stansbury [46:47]: "I ran a very unlikely race in a very red district and won one of the biggest upsets in New Mexico that year. And that’s how I ended up in politics."

The DOGE Subcommittee and Government Modernization Efforts

Stansbury provides insight into the contentious DOGE (Department of Government Efficiency) subcommittee, led by Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene. She criticizes the subcommittee's approach, which she describes as chaotic and lacking adherence to legal protocols.

Melanie Stansbury [49:57]: "They started hacking government data systems and illegally firing federal employees... the DOGE subcommittee has become this weird defunct political arm for Marjorie Taylor Greene."

Republican Budget Proposals and Project 2025

The conversation shifts to the Republican Party's recent budget proposals, dubbed Project 2025, which Stansbury argues represents the largest deficit spending and social welfare cuts in American history. She outlines the bill's impacts, including significant tax breaks for billionaires, reductions in Medicaid and Medicare, and increased spending on defense and AI contracts.

Melanie Stansbury [56:15]: "This bill makes the largest tax breaks to billionaires... cuts Medicaid, Medicare, food assistance... millions of Americans are going to be impacted."

Stansbury expresses frustration over Republican attempts to mask the bill's deficits, noting their inconsistency with the party's long-standing stance on fiscal responsibility.

Melanie Stansbury [56:15]: "The Republicans have branded themselves for decades as the party of fiscal responsibility... it is not logical anymore."

Impact on New Mexico and Democratic Strategy

Addressing concerns about New Mexico's political trajectory and the state's close margins in recent elections, Stansbury attributes Democratic resilience to practical voter behavior and effective ground-game strategies. She emphasizes the importance of voter registration and mobilization to counteract Republican dominance.

Melanie Stansbury [71:17]: "We knocked and called 40,000 people in my district and I won by seven points... if we get organized, we’re going to blow it out of the water this year."

Demographic Shifts and the Future of the Democratic Party

Stansbury discusses the demographic changes within Congress, highlighting the infusion of younger talent and the eventual transition from older to newer leadership. She remains optimistic about the Democratic Party's ability to regain strength through grassroots efforts and strategic organization.

Melanie Stansbury [66:19]: "There's a huge demographic shift happening... the Democratic Party emerge in the coming months with new strength and vigor."

Closing Remarks

Tim Miller concludes the episode by expressing appreciation for his guests' insights and reiterates the importance of staying informed and engaged in the political process. He also briefly mentions upcoming live shows and the continuation of discussions on pressing political issues.

Key Takeaways:

1. JD Vance's Political Evolution: George Packer provides a critical analysis of JD Vance's shift from an author focused on working-class struggles to a figure embracing and promoting MAGA ideologies, raising concerns about his impact on liberal democracy.

2. Republican Budget Proposals: Melanie Stansbury exposes the Republican Party's Project 2025 as an unprecedented act of deficit spending coupled with substantial cuts to social programs, challenging the party's traditional stance on fiscal responsibility.

3. DOGE Subcommittee Critique: Stansbury critiques the DOGE subcommittee's approach under Marjorie Taylor Greene, highlighting its inefficiency and legal irregularities in attempts to modernize government operations.

4. Democratic Resilience and Strategy: Despite electoral setbacks and demographic challenges, Stansbury remains optimistic about the Democratic Party's capacity to reorganize and strengthen through effective grassroots efforts and voter engagement.

5. Importance of Ground-Game: Emphasizing the success of grassroots mobilization, Stansbury underscores the necessity of robust voter registration and contact strategies to secure electoral victories against entrenched Republican tactics.

Notable Quotes:

• George Packer [06:22]: "He thinks that that's very dangerous and wants to tell people like him, young people like him, I made it out. Here's how I did it."

• Melanie Stansbury [56:15]: "This bill makes the largest tax breaks to billionaires... cuts Medicaid, Medicare, food assistance... millions of Americans are going to be impacted."

• George Packer [21:58]: "He justifies every policy, every lie, every cruelty, including cruelty to immigrants... it's all in the name of his people, the working class."

• Melanie Stansbury [71:17]: "We knocked and called 40,000 people in my district and I won by seven points... if we get organized, we’re going to blow it out of the water this year."

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers a deep dive into the shifting political landscapes influenced by figures like JD Vance and the evolving strategies within the Republican Party. Through insightful conversations with George Packer and Melanie Stansbury, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the challenges facing liberal democracy and the imperative for effective Democratic strategies in combating unprecedented fiscal policies and authoritarian tendencies.