The Bulwark Podcast: S2 Ep1055 - Bill Kristol: The Grotesqueness of It All
Release Date: June 2, 2025
Hosts: Tim Miller and Bill Kristol
Description: Tim Miller and Bill Kristol delve into pressing political issues, offering insightful analysis and robust defense of liberal democracy. This episode covers Ukraine's military advancements, critiques of current U.S. policies, and the rising threats of anti-Semitism.
1. Introduction and Context
The episode opens with host Tim Miller welcoming veteran commentator Bill Kristol. They set the stage for a comprehensive discussion on recent political and military developments, emphasizing Ukraine's resilience and the challenges posed by current U.S. leadership.
2. Ukraine's Drone Strike on Russia (00:42 - 05:50)
Key Discussion Points:
- Ukraine's Military Prowess: Ukraine executed a sophisticated drone strike against Russian strategic bombers, marking a significant shift in the conflict dynamics.
- Impressive Planning: Bill Kristol praises the Ukraine's intelligence and operational capabilities, highlighting the year-and-a-half-long planning behind the attack.
- U.S. Support Concerns: Kristol expresses disappointment in the Trump administration's lack of support for Ukraine, suggesting that stronger U.S. backing could have altered the conflict's trajectory.
Notable Quotes:
- Tim Miller (00:59): "Ukraine launched an unprecedented drone strike deep inside Russia targeting dozens of strategic bombers..."
- Bill Kristol (02:00): "I was excited and pleased and awfully impressed by the military capabilities of the Ukrainians."
- Bill Kristol (04:37): "Maybe there's enough ambiguity in Trump's own mind... that he can't go all the way to Putin."
3. Future of Warfare and Technological Threats (05:50 - 08:06)
Key Discussion Points:
- Advancements in Drone Technology: The discussion shifts to the implications of retrofitted drones in modern warfare and the potential future threats they pose.
- AI Opportunities and Risks: Both hosts explore the dual nature of artificial intelligence, noting its benefits in medical research and its dangers in warfare and surveillance.
- Leadership Concerns: Kristol voices apprehension about current leadership's ability to effectively manage and regulate emerging technologies.
Notable Quotes:
- Tim Miller (05:50): "Retrofit Chinese drones can just pop over a target. And I don't know that we have the seriousness of leadership that might be required to combat that future."
- Bill Kristol (06:39): "AI stuff this weekend... has many scary activities both in terms of war, but also in terms of surveillance and other anti-liberal measures here at home."
4. Intelligence Briefings and Administration Critique (08:06 - 12:00)
Key Discussion Points:
- Tulsi Gabbard's Intelligence Reforms: The conversation critiques Tulsi Gabbard's efforts to tailor intelligence briefings to align with Trump's consumption preferences, including formatting them like Fox News segments.
- Impact on Decision-Making: Kristol argues that such reforms undermine the integrity and seriousness of intelligence reporting, potentially influencing presidential decisions detrimentally.
- Mockery vs. Seriousness: They debate the balance between mocking leadership tactics and maintaining the gravity of intelligence matters.
Notable Quotes:
- Tim Miller (08:06): "Contrasted with the Ukrainian ingenuity, Donald Trump needing a security briefing via Fox and Friends is a little alarming."
- Bill Kristol (10:16): "Dressing it up as a fake Fox News broadcast... it's not great."
- Tim Miller (11:07): "You can at least laugh at it."
5. Healthcare and Vaccine Policy Critique (12:00 - 21:56)
Key Discussion Points:
- RFK Jr.'s Leadership of HHS: Kristol criticizes Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s tenure, highlighting detrimental policies such as Medicaid cuts and the cancellation of crucial vaccine research.
- Impact on Medical Innovation: The cancellation of mRNA vaccine research is portrayed as a self-inflicted wound that could hamper future pandemic responses and medical advancements.
- Broader Policy Failures: They discuss how interconnected policies on vaccines, healthcare funding, and immigration collectively harm the nation's future innovation and competitive edge.
Notable Quotes:
- Bill Kristol (13:04): "Real damage being done... cuts to Medicaid... future in innovation and technology..."
- Bill Kristol (19:13): "RFK Jr. canceled the mRNA vaccine research program... that was supposed to provide very fruitful research."
- Bill Kristol (20:52): "We are doing so much more... the US is so used to being number one... we took it for granted."
6. Immigration Policy and Inhumane Treatment (21:56 - 43:25)
Key Discussion Points:
- Inhumane Detentions: The hosts recount harrowing instances of migrant children and young individuals being detained and mistreated by ICE, emphasizing the cruelty and inefficiency of current immigration policies.
- Misallocation of Resources: Kristol argues that focusing on low-threat individuals diverts essential resources from addressing genuine security threats, such as potential domestic terrorists.
- Financial Implications: Overspending by DHS on unauthorized deportations and detentions is critiqued, highlighting the economic inefficiency and support of the private prison industry.
- Policy Consequences: The discussion underscores the broader societal harm, including broken families and economic contributions lost due to harsh immigration enforcement.
Notable Quotes:
- Tim Miller (31:33): "Marcelo Gomez, age 18... detained for three months by ICE... This is madness."
- Bill Kristol (35:13): "Misuse of resources going after these students and nurses... instead of focusing on real threats."
- Tim Miller (38:03): "DHS keeps spending money... it's insane."
7. Notable Figures and Media Coverage (43:25 - 51:52)
Key Discussion Points:
- Glenn Greenwald and Taylor Lorenz Controversies: The hosts touch upon scandals involving prominent media figures, criticizing the trivialization of serious issues like anti-Semitism.
- Elon Musk's Endorsements: They discuss Musk's controversial endorsements and his defense mechanisms against being labeled a Nazi, arguing that mocking such behavior can inadvertently legitimize harmful ideologies.
- Media's Role: Miller and Kristol lament the media's focus on superficial attacks rather than addressing substantive policy critiques and real threats.
Notable Quotes:
- Tim Miller (44:25): "This is what's happening on TikTok right now, Bill. It's, it's ugly out there."
- Bill Kristol (49:45): "Elon endorsed the great Neo Nazi party in Germany... that's a real thing."
- Tim Miller (50:52): "Make Elon defend... criticize them on real issues instead of symbolic ones."
8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts (51:52 - 55:24)
Key Discussion Points:
- Anti-Semitism and Media Responsibility: Miller delivers a passionate rant on the rising threats of anti-Semitism, urging for careful and substantive responses rather than trivial mockery.
- Strategic Resistance: Kristol emphasizes the need for pro-democracy forces to focus on policy deeds and exposing the real dangers posed by authoritarian tendencies, rather than getting caught in symbolic skirmishes.
- Call to Action: Both hosts advocate for intelligent and effective opposition to fascism, highlighting the importance of addressing genuine threats with seriousness and strategic planning.
Notable Quotes:
- Tim Miller (45:43): "We should be smart about it and that we should give the fascists hell in a way that is helpful."
- Bill Kristol (52:56): "The threat is real... focus on deeds and policies is better than focusing on the symbolic."
- Bill Kristol (55:24): "You must give fascist hell they'll run. Never mind what anybody else done."
Closing Remarks
The episode concludes with a light-hearted exchange between Tim and Bill, reinforcing their commitment to combating fascism and promoting liberal democracy. They encourage listeners to stay informed and engaged in the face of ongoing political and social challenges.
Notable Advertisements Skipped:
- Pro Paint Days at Lowe's and Mylo's Pro Rewards (00:01)
- Sol Gummies and Zebiotics promotions (12:00 - 29:08)
Disclaimer: This summary omits advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus on the substantive discussion between Tim Miller and Bill Kristol.